Saudi woman seeks to put women in the driving seat

[ardianto]

riding a donkey is equivalent to riding in a car, not driving a car. I am afraid the Sheikh misunderstood that.

In another forum I made some posts to argue Shaykh Al-Albani opinion about wear watch on the left hand is same like imitate kuffar. But in this forum, let me defend Shaykh Al-Albani opinion. Donkey is different than car, of course. But Shaykh Al-Albani did not wrong, women are permissible to drive car.

As I said before, I have 'reviewed' fatawa that support prohibition to drive car for women. But I did not find any daleel that can be used to ban woman to drive car. Okay, I know, I am just a layman, not an Alim. My Islamic knowledge is very low.

Please, show me a fatwa that can be used to ban woman drive a car if her mahram is in the car.

 

[Mr.President]

I am not bound to have only one opinion about women driving please enlighten me what exactly the problem if women drive cars ?

if they don't drive they have to go with NON MAHRAM DRIVERS ! And in many cases theres a lot of possibilities that HARAM affairs happen in between these non mahram drivers and women (not all women)

 

[LauraS]

"There are over 740,000 drivers in the Kingdom, said al-Oud, adding that this is harmful to the economy as drivers send remittances abroad, harmful to families as drivers sometimes interfere in family matters, harmful to society as drivers are sometimes involved in crime and harmful to laborers as drivers are often involved in human trafficking."

I this referring to the drivers who are paid to take the women around? I got confused then lol.

"Al-Oud said Saudi society rejects novel changes, which he said also includes women driving, something that makes men feel relegated from a dominant position in society. "

Doesn't that just sum up the whole argument that it's to do with male control rather than women's safety?

riding a donkey is equivalent to riding in a car, not driving a car. I am afraid the Sheikh misunderstood that.

Culture, culture, culture. I always hear tantrums about culture on these forums. People are trying to blame their "culture" for things which they disagree with and use Islam to fit in with their conceptions and views. So they are not changing their views according to Islam, but they are viewing Islam according to their ideas/views and trying to interpret it to fit with their ideology. Something that atheists use to reject religion since its diverse as number of its followers.

Sweet106: Your story shows that you have had some interesting experiences in life but your analysis of it is not sufficient. I hope you will be more open minded when trying to understand your past life. Maybe the fault lied in something that you did, and not really on your ex? Ever thought about that? We have a tendency to always focus on the good and happy dandy things that we do and we possess and criticize others, maybe traverse the other road this time.

all the best.

Did you not read what she said? Everyone says that already, assuming it is the wife who is at fault, yet from what I read the man even went to jail? But I won't say more on that because it's none of my business. mg:

Can I ask your opinion on women driving? Do you agree or not and, in school exam style, explain your answer.

 

[CosmicPathos]

"There are over 740,000 drivers in the Kingdom, said al-Oud, adding that this is harmful to the economy as drivers send remittances abroad, harmful to families as drivers sometimes interfere in family matters, harmful to society as drivers are sometimes involved in crime and harmful to laborers as drivers are often involved in human trafficking."

I this referring to the drivers who are paid to take the women around? I got confused then lol.

"Al-Oud said Saudi society rejects novel changes, which he said also includes women driving, something that makes men feel relegated from a dominant position in society. "

Doesn't that just sum up the whole argument that it's to do with male control rather than women's safety?





Did you not read what she said? Everyone says that already, assuming it is the wife who is at fault, yet from what I read the man even went to jail? But I won't say more on that because it's none of my business. mg:

Can I ask your opinion on women driving? Do you agree or not and, in school exam style, explain your answer.

Well my opinion doesnt matter when Islam is concerned but here is what I think. Of course there is nothing inherently wrong with women driving. Just like there is nothing wrong with women wearing bikini. They can drive what they want, they can wear what they want. But.

In a society where majority of people do not accept such views, for whatever reason, such views should be upheld. In Saudi, its not liked if women wear bikini outside. In the same way its not liked that they drive cars. In ancient times, I guess not many Saudi women rode horses, it was men's domain. Today, Saudi views cars as horses and hence again take it to be domain of men.

What role Islam plays in these views? I am not too sure. Islam did not specifically say that women should not ride horses. And seemingly Prophet Muhammad pbuh was okay with this culture. Allah swt did not reveal verses which said that women should start using riding horses etc. And despite the lack of Divine prohibition they didnt really ride horses, maybe it has something to do with socio-biological milieu of Arabia. So I guess that culture has continued on till today.

 

[MSalman]

riding a donkey is equivalent to riding in a car, not driving a car. I am afraid the Sheikh misunderstood that.

as-salaamu alaykum

Ignorance and speaking without knowledge is source of all evil. Didn't Allah Ta'ala condemn the kuffaar in the Qur'an for speaking without knowledge? I can go on with more examples but I hope we all get the point. Yet, we sit in front of computers and type whatever comes to our mind while ignoring the responsibility and danger of speaking without knowledge. I'm sure my brother you have not even studied a small book with a scholar on usool al-fiqh yet you are so eager to criticize those who are expert in that science. There's more to fatawa then "it is found in the Qur'an and the sunnah". There are many other factors involved, i.e., situation, consequences, etc. The fitnah within the society was raising due to young women driving around alone in their cars etc. As a result, the scholars accessed the situation and issued the fatawa. I have spoken to brothers/sisters from Saudi who know the situation more than us and wholeheartedly agree with the fatawa.

It's quite ironic that ban of niqaab (veil) is justified by the west in the name of removing oppression, security concerns, etc while on other hand they criticize this ban in Saudia.

 

[CosmicPathos]

as-salaamu alaykum

Ignorance and speaking without knowledge is source of all evil. Didn't Allah Ta'ala condemn the kuffaar in the Qur'an for speaking without knowledge? I can go on with more examples but I hope we all get the point. Yet, we sit in front of computers and type whatever comes to our mind while ignoring the responsibility and danger of speaking without knowledge. I'm sure my brother you have not even studied a small book with a scholar on usool al-fiqh yet you are so eager to criticize those who are expert in that science. There's more to fatawa then "it is found in the Qur'an and the sunnah". There are many other factors involved, i.e., situation, consequences, etc. The fitnah within the society was raising due to young women driving around alone in their cars etc. As a result, the scholars accessed the situation and issued the fatawa. I have spoken to brothers/sisters from Saudi who know the situation more than us and wholeheartedly agree with the fatawa.

It's quite ironic that ban of niqaab (veil) is justified by the west in the name of removing oppression, security concerns, etc while on other hand they criticize this ban in Saudia.

walaikum assalam,

well I hope you are not playing that "ignorance card" in which the whole world is ignorant except the few members of a specific cult.

well I have quite an extensive exposure to Saudi way of living, I grew up there, and hence I am sure I do understand the situation as well.

So are you saying that driving was banned because of fitna of young women driving? Why did not such a controversy arise before the advent of cars? Are there fatwas in which scholars specifically banned the riding of horses by females? Since you seem well-read in Usool Al Fiqh, you can help me out here.

w salam

 

[ardianto]

as-salaamu alaykum

Ignorance and speaking without knowledge is source of all evil. Didn't Allah Ta'ala condemn the kuffaar in the Qur'an for speaking without knowledge? I can go on with more examples but I hope we all get the point. Yet, we sit in front of computers and type whatever comes to our mind while ignoring the responsibility and danger of speaking without knowledge. I'm sure my brother you have not even studied a small book with a scholar on usool al-fiqh yet you are so eager to criticize those who are expert in that science. There's more to fatawa then "it is found in the Qur'an and the sunnah". There are many other factors involved, i.e., situation, consequences, etc. The fitnah within the society was raising due to young women driving around alone in their cars etc. As a result, the scholars accessed the situation and issued the fatawa. I have spoken to brothers/sisters from Saudi who know the situation more than us and wholeheartedly agree with the fatawa.

It's quite ironic that ban of niqaab (veil) is justified by the west in the name of removing oppression, security concerns, etc while on other hand they criticize this ban in Saudia.

Assalamu' Alaikum, brother.

Please review my statement "There is no any daleel that can be used to ban women to drive car as long as their mahram are in the car"

 

[MSalman]

@mad_scientist

wa alaykum as-salaam

Let me correct myself, it was about blocking the means to haraam. As far rest of your questions, I don't know.

well I hope you are not playing that "ignorance card" in which the whole world is ignorant except the few members of a specific cult.

my comment about ignorance and speaking without knowledge was meant to be kind reminder for all of us, including myself, nothing more nothing less.

 

[Uthman]

Yes, my understanding is that this is a context-specific fatwa where the scholars of that land, after assessing the situation, concluded that was too much fitnah occurring as a result of women driving. Therefore, they closed the door to it by applying the principle of Sadd'l Dhara'i ("blocking the means").

 

[MSalman]

Assalamu' Alaikum, brother.

Please review my statement "There is no any daleel that can be used to ban women to drive car as long as their mahram are in the car"

wa'alaykum as-salaam

Bismillah

Akhee, are you talking about specific Saudi situation or general? Generally speaking, as the scholars have said, it's permissible for women to drive. But this is one of those ruling which come under the heading "ruling could change depending on consequences". Hence, exceptions could be made to general ruling, which happened in this case of Saudi women not allowed to drive. Depending on certain situations and circumstances, halal can become haram and vice versa. For example, it's permissible to eat non-zabiha meat if it's matter of life and death. It's permissible to lie in three situations. Similarly, if it was matter of life and death and a sister has to drive someone to hospital when no other means are available, for example, then I'm sure no scholar would say that it's not permissible.

We can disagree with scholars' deduction etc but what I can't swallow is whoo haa by some Muslims who unjustly criticize the scholars as if they didn't base their ijtihad upon any shari evidence and were speaking form their desires to control women etc.

and Allah knows best

 

[ardianto]

wa'alaykum as-salaam

Bismillah

Akhee, are you talking about specific Saudi situation or general? Generally speaking, as the scholars have said, it's permissible for women to drive. But this is one of those ruling which come under the heading "ruling could change depending on consequences". Hence, exceptions could be made to general ruling, which happened in this case of Saudi women not allowed to drive. Depending on certain situations and circumstances, halal can become haram and vice versa. For example, it's permissible to eat non-zabiha meat if it's matter of life and death. It's permissible to lie in three situations. Similarly, if it was matter of life and death and a sister has to drive someone to hospital when no other means are available, for example, then I'm sure no scholar would say that it's not permissible.

We can disagree with scholars' deduction etc but what I can't swallow is whoo haa by some Muslims who unjustly criticize the scholars as if they didn't base their ijtihad upon any shari evidence and were speaking form their desires to control women etc

and Allah knows best

Assalamu 'alaikum, Akhee.

For this time, I cannot say anything except Jazak Allahu Khayran.

 

[Getoffmyback]

I wish if the title was saudi men are trying to put saudi women at driving seat

 

['Abd-al Latif]

That is the impression I am getting from this forum. Utter suffocation and who needs western media when this forum and their members are doing all the work for them.

So yes when I do log off from this forum I tend to feel like I came out of the jungle with all of the braches, the hot weather, the snakes and the insects. Do you know that feeling you get when you are all sweating and confused?

I came to this forum to clear misconceptions gained from experience s like horrendous marriage, blood brothers and culture. And I wasn’t really active in this forum until about a year ago or so.

But this forum has done little. Granted, some people have cleared and explained some things but not all. In some case added to the misconceptions.

I came out this forum every time thinking why is that one gender doesn’t have full accountability whilst other does? Why does one group have to take the extra mile whilst other doesn’t? Why does changes have to occur on one side not the other?

And then you have ‘members’ from the same group as you. And they say well hmm I don’t have a problem with it, why do you? Well I am not you..

And I am not a ‘modernist’ or ‘feminist’ or any other ridiculous ideologist, I am your average Muslim that prays, never committed zina, never taken drugs, I never had male friends. I keep myself to myself yet I can’t to get to grip with this. And I don’t know why?

I can’t grip with the idea that I am created to stay at home; ask permission from male relative like they are perfect. My relatives and ex are far from perfect; they are one of the worse. They really are. Yet they get to have some control over me?

Do you know that feeling when you stay up during the night and pray and pray? And you don’t get any answers?
You expect at least some justice in this world. And you don’t get any not from sentence the British justice system give out not from your own **** family.

The gender thing is not huge problem. It is the forgiveness part that is bugging me. I don’t even know if I am still a Muslim? Because I actually hated someone and it was for good reasons not minor stuff. Takes me back to the accountability, that person has never take any responsibility for his own action despite it being horrific enough to land him in jail.

It always happens to be my fault. ‘You didn’t listen to him’ ‘you must have said something’ ‘you, you, you'.

I don't understand what most of this has to do with anything, but let me point out a few things.

1) One gender is not created superior than the other. Women can achieve what men can and vice versa. Each can perform the same good deeds and reach the same milestone, the same intended goal and the same rank and status. Men and women are equal, but not even and this is why we have different ways of achieving our goals. The jihad of men is combating in arms, the jihad if women is hajj. The inheritance of men is more because men are obliged to spend it on their family, women inherit less because whatever she gets is hers to keep and spend as she likes.

2) Staying at home isn't a command of possessive men, it's a religious command and a woman will be rewarded for her obedience to Allah. She is allowed to leave her house to study, to fulfil needs and even to work if there is a need for her to work. But a balance in a family would require some members to work outside the home while others stay at home.

3) If you have come so far as to safeguard yourself from major sins, what recognition do you expect people to give you? What reward do you expecting from the son of Adam? Your reward is with Allah. The son of Adam isn't grateful to his Lord, do you think he will be grateful to people?

4) Yes I know the feeling of not having du'aa responded. But the delay or the lack of response from Allah is a trial. Allah will reward me in the next life or ward off a calamity equal to the strength of my du'aa, so long as I do not become impatient.

Even the Prophets were tried with a delay in response:

أَمْ حَسِبْتُمْ أَن تَدْخُلُوا الْجَنَّةَ وَلَمَّا يَأْتِكُم مَّثَلُ الَّذِينَ خَلَوْا مِن قَبْلِكُم ۖ مَّسَّتْهُمُ الْبَأْسَاءُ وَالضَّرَّاءُوَزُلْزِلُوا حَتَّىٰ يَقُولَ الرَّسُولُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا مَعَهُ مَتَىٰ نَصْرُ اللَّهِ ۗ أَلَا إِنَّ نَصْرَ اللَّهِ قَرِيبٌ​

"Or you think that you will enter Paradise without such (trials) as came to those who passed away before you? They were afflicted with severe poverty, ailments and were so shaken that even the Messenger and those who had faith with him said, ‘When will the Help of Allah come?’ Yes! Indeed Allah’s help is close!" (al-Baqarah 2:214)​

If my du'aas are not answered then I know that the problem is not with Allah, the problem is with me. Either my heart was heedless when making du'aa or sins are blocking the response.

None of this has anything to do with the topic title, but what needs to be clarified is that the ban on women driving isn't because of their incapability to drive, but rather to close the cracks for shaytan to lay his traps.

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

^^^Actually that response had nothing to do with the topic at hand rather to do with your response to me.
My understanding of stay at home is similar to this: http://muslimmatters.org/2010/06/30...ran-commands-muslim-women-stay-in-your-homes/
I know that one gender is not superior to other but this driving ban puts responsibility on one gender. And I also know another reason that was given was the women were going to drive to non marhram. But what about those men who will drive to non mahram? Does it not go both ways?
Banning women to drive has actually open more doors for the shaytan. Those same women that did drive are now taking taxes with non marhram or walking out on the pavement/street where they are more exposed to being harassed. And not all have mahram can take them to work etc. At least with a car, she was able to go to one destination asap. You are not very convincing and this rule still appears to be extreme.
This ban is extreme and has not closed any gaps whatsoever. Jazak Allahu Khayran for your response/advice anyways.

 

[CosmicPathos]

^^^Actually that response had nothing to do with the topic at hand rather to do with your response to me.
My understanding of stay at home is similar to this: http://muslimmatters.org/2010/06/30...ran-commands-muslim-women-stay-in-your-homes/
I know that one gender is not superior to other but this driving ban puts responsibility on one gender. And I also know another reason that was given was the women were going to drive to non marhram. But what about those men who will drive to non mahram? Does it not go both ways?
Banning women to drive has actually open more doors for the shaytan. Those same women that did drive are now taking taxes with non marhram or walking out on the pavement/street where they are more exposed to being harassed. And not all have mahram can take them to work etc. At least with a car, she was able to go to one destination asap. You are not very convincing and this rule still appears to be extreme.
This ban is extreme and has not closed any gaps whatsoever. Jazak Allahu Khayran for your response/advice anyways.

It is your perception that the ban has not worked. For many Saudi, it has worked, and works, and that is why they want to keep applying it.

And Muslim Matters is not an authority on Islam.

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

^It's we as Muslimahs that should know our God given rights. If you don't know your rights than expect them to be taken away. If Umar bin Al khattab one of the greatest sahaba tried to put a limit on the dowry and was corrected by a women and if Aisha didn't correct the sahaba who put women on the same level as donkeys and dogs in reference to breaking the salah for all we know we could have been on the same level as donkeys and dogs today and these were Muslims far greater than we are. I don't know if the staying at home was contextual or just preferable to women as opposed to a must, as women in the early dies of Islamic society did participate outside... Islam isnt black and white or haram vs halal so don't be disheartened by certain callous statements ( not necessarily by male members on this forum) made by some men who hide their misogyny behind Islam.
Salam

Jazak Allahu Khayran for your response sis.
I know, I know Islam isn’t as black and white as some people make it out to be. I guess my perception clouded my judgment abit ^o).
Hey I just thought a solution. Don’t you think the Saudi government can create a public transport for women only? Like London buses and trams but female version etc? :shade: Do they have that? I know they have buses for school girls. The country is rich enough to do this.

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

It is your perception that the ban has not worked. For many Saudi, it has worked, and works, and that is why they want to keep applying it.

And Muslim Matters is not an authority on Islam.

You keep saying many Saudi wants it. Yet you haven’t provided any proof. There are clearly some who still violate the law and don’t agree with it.
Evidently, it also has not worked if some women have to take a taxi to get to places.
I did not say Muslim matter is an authority on Islam. My understanding of staying at home is the same as theirs. (I also consulted scholars on the matter too).

 

[Ar-RaYYan]

Inshallah lifting the ban on female drivers have to come from within Saudi Arabia. Outsiders can say whatever they want but at the end of the day ordinary saudi women (and hopefully men inshallah) have to take a lead and demand that their government abolish this ban. It was the same with the Arab spring; it didnt come from the West or influential leaders but ordinary egyptians, tunisians men and women who had enough with their corrupt leaders. It doesnt mean we are heartless or insensitive- we can still show support but protesting and challenging the saudi government have to start from people who are directly affected and reading the articles it seems it has already started. Inshallah I hope that they succeed and are given their rights back Allah has given them.

 

[GuestFellow]

For many Saudi, it has worked, and works, and that is why they want to keep applying it.

Salaam,

Do you have evidence for this? I'm know that you were raised in Saudi Arabia but you do not speak for all Saudis. :/

Banning women to drive has actually open more doors for the shaytan. Those same women that did drive are now taking taxes with non marhram or walking out on the pavement/street where they are more exposed to being harassed. And not all have mahram can take them to work etc. At least with a car, she was able to go to one destination asap. You are not very convincing and this rule still appears to be extreme.
This ban is extreme and has not closed any gaps whatsoever. Jazak Allahu Khayran for your response/advice anyways.

Salaam,

I would like to see the Saudi scholars address this issue. What I find very bizarre is that in Saudi Arabia, men and women are separated, but permit women to be in a car with a complete stranger. o_o I really don't understand this...

How do these scholars reconcile this...

 

[Ar-RaYYan]

Salaam,

I would like to see the Saudi scholars address this issue. What I find very bizarre is that in Saudi Arabia, men and women are separated, but permit women to be in a car with a complete stranger. o_o I really don't understand this...

How do these scholars reconcile this...

I doubt that those scholars who originally issued the ban on female drivers were also suggesting that its permissible for a woman to be driven on her own with a male driver. But yes they should have considered the practical side too such as not being possible for every woman's mahram to be available to drive her somewhere therefore would need to hire non-maharam drivers.