Saudi woman seeks to put women in the driving seat

[GuestFellow]

Your culture of eating all these delicious/sweet foods is a problem. It can give you diabetes, dyslipidemia, hypercholesterolemia, atherosclerosis, q wave stemi, congestive heart failure, chronic kidney failure, uremia, liver failure .... and death. but we dont go and forcibly keep sweet foods away from you. Just like that you cant enforce things into Saudi culture, especially being a non-Saudi yourself.

Salaam,

I'm not going to force anything on Saudi culture lol. I just gave my opinion. Like I said before, change must come from within Saudi Arabia.

My culture? I rarely eat cakes, believe it or not lol. I workout everyday (sometimes I forget) and want to keep in good shape.

 

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Very interesting

US put pressure on Saudi Arabia to let women drive, leaked cables reveal

Documents given to WikiLeaks show Obama administration pushed Saudis to give female citizens more rights


The Obama administration has been quietly putting pressure on Saudi Arabia to allow women to drive, according to leaked US embassy cables. But the jailing of a woman protester, Manal al-Sharif, after she posted online a video of herself at the wheel of a car in Khobar reveals the extent of the US diplomatic failure. The cables, part of the treasure trove allegedly given to WikiLeaks by the US soldier Bradley Manning, reveal previously unreported clashes over women's rights.

Dispatches from Riyadh describe Saudi Arabia as "the world's largest women's prison". Those words are a quote from Wajeha al-Huwaider, a female campaigner with whom US diplomats have been in contact. She posted a video on YouTube in 2008 of herself driving. Claiming millions of Saudi women were prisoners in their homes, she challenged male control over work and travel. She regularly tried to take a taxi to neighbouring Bahrain. According to the cables, "al-Huwaider is divorced which means under Saudi law her ex-husband or her father or a brother would need to give her permission to leave the country. Although she holds a valid passport, every time she tries to leave ... she is stopped at the border to Bahrain and turned around."

The billionaire tycoon Prince Waleed, a Saudi royal, assured a visiting Democratic congressman in July 2009 that King Abdullah did support women's rights, the embassy noted optimistically. The driving ban was reportedly about to be overturned.

Speaking at his 99-storey Kingdom Tower in Riyadh, Waleed said the ban was merely a "demeaning" tribal custom and that he "relished relating his run-ins with the kingdom's religious conservatives. He was involved with the first public showings of films in the kingdom in many years. His wife has openly requested that women be allowed to drive. He supports French president Sarkozy's campaign against women wearing coverings hiding their faces."

Abdullah appointed the country's first woman deputy minister in 2009 and opened "with much fanfare" a mixed-sex science university, in front of foreign dignitaries including Prince Andrew. The embassy noted approvingly "several subtle, symbolic gestures ... Saudi men and women, many of whom did not wear the face-covering niqab, mingled freely with international attendees throughout the ceremony. Male and female students stood side by side on stage for an emotive reading of a poem. The ceremony was interspaced with a movie showing (uncovered) young girls and boys studying together."

But there was an immediate backlash. Saad Nasser al-****hri, a cleric from the council of senior scholars, appeared on the Saudi religious TV channel to defy the king. He denounced "mixing of the sexes" and "the teaching of deviant ideas such as evolution".

Abdullah was forced to sack him, but embassy contacts warned privately that ****hri was being regarded as a hero by unemployed young Saudis, who resented foreign students getting advantages, and by reactionary clerics, who feared a plot to impose western values. Another cleric, Sheikh Salman al-Duwaysh, publicly attacked "mixing with women on the basis of claiming to educate them and to open the field for them to undertake jobs for which they were not created". He said such women had "abandoned their basic duties such as housekeeping, bringing up children ... and replaced this by beautifying themselves and wantonness".

The embassy was refused consent for a US "rhythm and oratory duo" called Teasley and Williams to play to a mixed audience at the university. But the duo did appear at the Riyadh literary society before "an unprecedented mixed-gender audience (mixed by Saudi standards – the handful of women who attended sat in a screened-off block of seats across the aisle from the men). Nonetheless, the fact that women were even invited to a musical performance with men in Riyadh is remarkable".

Obama's envoy, Richard Erdman, privately scolded Saudi ministers to little effect. He "pointedly" told the notoriously reactionary interior minister, Prince Naif, that "no nation could prosper without the intellectual contributions and talent of all its citizens ... (ie women)". He said the same to the deputy foreign minister, who responded wryly that "customs were a hard nut to crack".

In a dispatch headed "Women need not apply", US diplomats recorded that US-educated Prince Mansur, the minister of municipal affairs, firmly rejected the notion that political development required the participation of women, saying issues such as women driving were "not fundamental to our society". According to the US diplomats, the driving ban is in fact something of a charade which "dates from a 1991 fatwa issued by the late grand mufti of Saudi Arabia, Sheikh Abdulaziz bin Baz. The grand mufti claimed that allowing women to drive would result in public 'mixing' of men and women, put women into dangerous situations because they could be alone in cars, and therefore result in social chaos."

The cable continued: "Women drive anyway: there are, in fact, many instances in which Saudi women defy the prohibition.

"Women drive on private property such as desert farms or residential compounds beyond reach of police.

"Embassy contacts and media report that in rural areas women routinely drive out of necessity, without being stopped.

"Al-Hayat newspaper reported 16 February ... a woman driving in some Saudi villages is considered normal."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/27/us-pressurised-saudis-let-women-drive

 

[peace_maker]

I think the major reason why women in Saudi Arabia(not Saudi women) are not allowed to drive is because of the mahram issue. As much as this is right, it's also wrong. The girls here don't go to schools, colleges, universities or jobs with their mahrams. So I don't see the point of driving without mahram. Women here go along everywhere without mahram, so this no big issue.
Anyhow, if this is the case, then I'm for the idea of allowing women to drive without the mahram inside the city only. For starters, I think it's okay to abide the women from travelling long distances without mahram.

About the veil issue, I think the best way to clarify this to ask someone who wears it.
I've been wearing it for years now, and I still have few difficulties with it. Especially when it's windy. Also sometimes, it gets into the eyes, which I agree will be a problem while driving. So it's fine with me if there'd be a rule against veil while driving. It's not against Islam or anything.

As far as dating is concerned, I don't think the country should be responsible for keeping women religious. They themselves should decide which way they want to live.

I know Saudi Arabia has beautifully managed it's religious aspects like no other country. But, I don't think women driving would be that big of a problem.

 

[ardianto]

Anyhow, if this is the case, then I'm for the idea of allowing women to drive without the mahram inside the city only.

I guess, you got this idea because you have heard fatawa from non-Saudi Ulama that mentioned if women are allowed to traveling alone as long as not go far more than the maximum distance in Sharia. Maybe you right, but Saudi Ulama (or at least one Saudi Alim) have different view.

Imagine if you drive a car traveling around your city within radius 10 miles from your home. You drive in two hours with constant speed 30 miles per hour. The question : how far you leave your home ?. You can answer 10 miles. But according to that Alim 60 miles. He didn't count how far you from your home, but how long distance that you have reached.

I found in a fatwa, if a woman drive a car traveling around the city, she can goes more than maximum distance without she realize.

I still remember this fatwa, but unfortunately I don't remember name of Alim who issued this fatwa.

 

['Abd-al Latif]

Forget it; you aren’t getting your answer here. In that part of the world we are weak and inferior. We are to stay at home (the point of nigab, Hijab is?) and we are nothing but a baby making machine. :hmm:
The idea of us driving a car is completely out of the question. We will drive to non mahram but the men are morally superior. They won’t even dare to drive to non maharm. No they won’t.
So, don’t brother finding your answer here. Just give up. Because I have!

I fear opening up a can of worms by responding to you, but if this is what you think then you don't know your own rights in Islam. Throwing a tantrum every time just because you differ doesn't change anything.

Look up what what the sahabiyyat were like and how they spent their lives, I think you'll be in for a surprise. I hope that you'll see more than just some female companions going out to the market place and doing some small business to fulfil their needs.

 

['Abd-al Latif]

Abd-la Latif- but in the article you posted the quotes all mention women remaining modest, surely if they drive while covered up there shouldn't be a problem? As for the "stay in your houses" part, are women then not allowed to go out unless it be completely necessary? You'd get a lot of fed up women. - I understand this is just a quote what you're saying though.

Mr President- Whaaaat? lol They don't think women should have a bit a relaxing time to get together? So what if they decide to go to coffee houses? Once again that doesn't mean they aren't covered up. Do they expect women to be prisoners in their own homes?

Guestfellow- Wow, that is ironic lol.

Bear with me. I'll respond to you but I've been extremely busy.

 

[Maryan0]

she drives because shes allowed to. She wont if shes not allowed to. Heard about something called herd psychology?

It's not so much the being "allowed" or not but the justification she was giving. I would assume if you lack focus and responsibility when driving it would be the same whether you're in Saudi Arabia or the western world...
Salam

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

I fear opening up a can of worms by responding to you, but if this is what you think then you don't know your own rights in Islam. Throwing a tantrum every time just because you differ doesn't change anything.

Look up what what the sahabiyyat were like and how they spent their lives, I think you'll be in for a surprise. I hope that you'll see more than just some female companions going out to the market place and doing some small business to fulfil their needs.

That is the impression I am getting from this forum. Utter suffocation and who needs western media when this forum and their members are doing all the work for them.

So yes when I do log off from this forum I tend to feel like I came out of the jungle with all of the braches, the hot weather, the snakes and the insects. Do you know that feeling you get when you are all sweating and confused?

I came to this forum to clear misconceptions gained from experience s like horrendous marriage, blood brothers and culture. And I wasn’t really active in this forum until about a year ago or so.

But this forum has done little. Granted, some people have cleared and explained some things but not all. In some case added to the misconceptions.

I came out this forum every time thinking why is that one gender doesn’t have full accountability whilst other does? Why does one group have to take the extra mile whilst other doesn’t? Why does changes have to occur on one side not the other?

And then you have ‘members’ from the same group as you. And they say well hmm I don’t have a problem with it, why do you? Well I am not you..

And I am not a ‘modernist’ or ‘feminist’ or any other ridiculous ideologist, I am your average Muslim that prays, never committed zina, never taken drugs, I never had male friends. I keep myself to myself yet I can’t to get to grip with this. And I don’t know why?

I can’t grip with the idea that I am created to stay at home; ask permission from male relative like they are perfect. My relatives and ex are far from perfect; they are one of the worse. They really are. Yet they get to have some control over me?

Do you know that feeling when you stay up during the night and pray and pray? And you don’t get any answers?
You expect at least some justice in this world. And you don’t get any not from sentence the British justice system give out not from your own **** family.

The gender thing is not huge problem. It is the forgiveness part that is bugging me. I don’t even know if I am still a Muslim? Because I actually hated someone and it was for good reasons not minor stuff. Takes me back to the accountability, that person has never take any responsibility for his own action despite it being horrific enough to land him in jail.

It always happens to be my fault. ‘You didn’t listen to him’ ‘you must have said something’ ‘you, you, you'.

 

[Maryan0]

^It's we as Muslimahs that should know our God given rights. If you don't know your rights than expect them to be taken away. If Umar bin Al khattab one of the greatest sahaba tried to put a limit on the dowry and was corrected by a women and if Aisha didn't correct the sahaba who put women on the same level as donkeys and dogs in reference to breaking the salah for all we know we could have been on the same level as donkeys and dogs today and these were Muslims far greater than we are. I don't know if the staying at home was contextual or just preferable to women as opposed to a must, as women in the early dies of Islamic society did participate outside... Islam isnt black and white or haram vs halal so don't be disheartened by certain callous statements ( not necessarily by male members on this forum) made by some men who hide their misogyny behind Islam.
Salam

 

[FS123]

^It's we as Muslimahs that should know our God given rights. If you don't know your rights than expect them to be taken away. If Umar bin Al khattab one of the greatest sahaba tried to put a limit on the dowry and was corrected by a women and if Aisha didn't correct the sahaba who put women on the same level as donkeys and dogs in reference to breaking the salah for all we know we could have been on the same level as donkeys and dogs today and these were Muslims far greater than we are. I don't know if the staying at home was contextual or just preferable to women as opposed to a must, as women in the early dies of Islamic society did participate outside... Islam isnt black and white or haram vs halal so don't be disheartened by certain callous statements ( not necessarily by male members on this forum) made by some men who hide their misogyny behind Islam.
Salam

Well said sister, but I think the main reason is fear what will happen the sin, corruption, etc... as the saying goes: road to hell (sometimes) are paved with good intentions.

 

[Maryan0]

Well said sister, but I think the main reason is fear what will happen the sin, corruption, etc... as the saying goes: road to hell (sometimes) are paved with good intentions.

Sin and corruption will always exist. There should obviously be preventative measures taken to prevent such things from happening but this should be done without acting like big brother. Even with all these extreme laws in Saudi Arabia fitna there exists as it does anywhere else in the world.
That saying is very true and jazakhallah bro.
Salam

 

[Mr.President]

this thread has got lot of temp..!

 

[al yunan]

I keep myself to myself yet I can’t to get to grip with this. And I don’t know why?

Assalamu Alaikum sister,

I first considered to P.M this, but after second thoughts its best to be public as you as well as all of us Muslims on this forum are part of the same Ummah regardless of our likes or dislikes of each other.

I would like to start of with a reminder of the verse "no soul shall be burdened with more than it can bear" and a Hadith " beware of what you hate and talk about often least Allah S.W.T turn you into that which you hate" (not ad verbum).

Now sister every one of us has to deal with problems it's a blessing not a curse so sister the fault lies with your perception
Inshallah try and see your self as Allah S.W.T's servant and not to feel as if you have been enslaved by life and the world.
You seem very intelligent and yet you project hostility which infers misunderstanding.
Learn to place your trust in Allah S.W.T and say with Feeling and conviction "Hasbunallah waniaman Wakil" as often as possible and I promise you your life will change.
It is natural to doubt your Iman when you allow negative relatives or not very Islamically conscious family members to get into your head, no matter as to their cause or their number for even if you should add all their influence or power as you believe they exercise over you; surely Allah S.W.T's power is greater.

As for forgiveness it's hard for all of us, so rather than think of forgiving them, forgive them for the sake of Allah S.W.T.
Just so that I'm not misunderstood forgiveness does not imply being taken advantage of.
Contrary to what you might think, there is a lot of Barakat on this Forum and if we did not care for each other what kind of Humans would that makes us never mind Muslims yet again we all have human frailties and aspire to be nobler in the eyes of our Lord A.T.

Hopefully you see my point about perception and placing your trust in the only one that truly matters in your life, Allah S.W.T.

Masalam

 

[Riana17]

Saudi Arabian women demanding right to drive are threatened with beatings, arrested
By Elizabeth Flock


If this is real....:anger:

tied up with the culture

 

[Riana17]

this thread has got lot of temp..!

u are very funny ;D

 

[LauraS]

I fear opening up a can of worms by responding to you, but if this is what you think then you don't know your own rights in Islam. Throwing a tantrum every time just because you differ doesn't change anything.

Look up what what the sahabiyyat were like and how they spent their lives, I think you'll be in for a surprise. I hope that you'll see more than just some female companions going out to the market place and doing some small business to fulfil their needs.

But it's not just about throwing a tantrum, it's frustration. It seems that women over there can't be trusted with freedom. They aren't allowed to drive in case they spend more time with their friends than looking after the house. Sweet106 sounds like she's suffered through perceptions of men being always in the rght and the complete head of the household so maybe people should listen to what she says rather than dismissing it (granted, you posted this before her big post). Women may have their Islamic rights but surely knowing them and being allowed to exercise them are two different things, especially is certain men decide to twist Islam in their favour e.g. things about driving cars wouldn't have be written down two thousand years ago so they choose to decide for themselves whether Allah would like women to drive cars, even though they were allowed to "drive" camels.

 

[Mr.President]

Okay this is becoming a hot topic any way since there's only predictions like if women drive this will happen that will happen, and there are two opinions even scholars

There are over 740,000 drivers in the Kingdom, said al-Oud, adding that this is harmful to the economy as drivers send remittances abroad, harmful to families as drivers sometimes interfere in family matters, harmful to society as drivers are sometimes involved in crime and harmful to laborers as drivers are often involved in human trafficking.

Al-Oud said Saudi society rejects novel changes, which he said also includes women driving, something that makes men feel relegated from a dominant position in society. “But the thing is, it is not the men of the house who are the actual ones driving and fulfilling their families’ needs. It is the foreign drivers,” he said.

There are over 740,000 drivers in the Kingdom, said al-Oud, adding that this is harmful to the economy as drivers send remittances abroad, harmful to families as drivers sometimes interfere in family matters, harmful to society as drivers are sometimes involved in crime and harmful to laborers as drivers are often involved in human trafficking.

Mohammed al-Zulfa, a former member of the Shura Council, refuses seeing women as fragile and in need of protection. “Women are much stronger than we imagine. There are many widows and divorcees who provide for their entire families,” he said, adding that people should have faith in them and they should be trusted.

He added that issues involving women are sensitive and are often dealt with in a conservative fashion. “The Shura usually puts an issue up for discussion should there be a recommendation to do so. Yet the issue of driving has not even been presented for discussion, as there is a fatwa on the matter issued by the Council of Senior Islamic Scholars in 1990-1991.

We need a fatwa to annul the previous one or a royal decree,” he said.
Al-Zulfa said religious institutes tolerate women mixing or being in "khalwa" (privacy) with their drivers but stop short of allowing women to drive. “It is a cultural and social issue rather than a religious one,” he said, adding that it is a political decision and should be dealt with by the government.

What al-Zulfa says about the issue being a social and cultural matter, rather than a religious one, is something that bin Baz agrees on. “There are rights the government should give like education, health care and the ability to move and use transportation freely,” he said.

source

Questioner: Is it permissible for a woman to drive a car?

Answer:

If it is permissible for her to ride upon a (female) donkey then it is permissible for her to drive a car.
Questioner:

But there is a difference between a donkey and a car.

Sh Al-Albaanee:

Which is more concealing – riding upon a donkey or in a car? I would suggest (riding in) a car.

Shaykh Naasir ud-Deen al-Albaanee

So the government should give the right to the women to drive <--My personal opinion :\

 

[ardianto]

Shaykh Nasiruddin Al-Albani is not Saudian. His opinions were not always same with Saudi Ulama. In example, Saudi Ulama say, women are obligated to cover their faces. But Shaykh Al-Albani said, woman face is not awrah.

 

[peace_maker]

I guess, you got this idea because you have heard fatawa from non-Saudi Ulama that mentioned if women are allowed to traveling alone as long as not go far more than the maximum distance in Sharia. Maybe you right, but Saudi Ulama (or at least one Saudi Alim) have different view.

Imagine if you drive a car traveling around your city within radius 10 miles from your home. You drive in two hours with constant speed 30 miles per hour. The question : how far you leave your home ?. You can answer 10 miles. But according to that Alim 60 miles. He didn't count how far you from your home, but how long distance that you have reached.

I found in a fatwa, if a woman drive a car traveling around the city, she can goes more than maximum distance without she realize.

I still remember this fatwa, but unfortunately I don't remember name of Alim who issued this fatwa.

Nope, I just felt like it would be okay, cause there are many hadeeths supporting the mahram fact. :hmm:

 

[CosmicPathos]

Okay this is becoming a hot topic any way since there's only predictions like if women drive this will happen that will happen, and there are two opinions even scholars









source





So the government should give the right to the women to drive <--My personal opinion :\

riding a donkey is equivalent to riding in a car, not driving a car. I am afraid the Sheikh misunderstood that.

Culture, culture, culture. I always hear tantrums about culture on these forums. People are trying to blame their "culture" for things which they disagree with and use Islam to fit in with their conceptions and views. So they are not changing their views according to Islam, but they are viewing Islam according to their ideas/views and trying to interpret it to fit with their ideology. Something that atheists use to reject religion since its diverse as number of its followers.

Sweet106: Your story shows that you have had some interesting experiences in life but your analysis of it is not sufficient. I hope you will be more open minded when trying to understand your past life. Maybe the fault lied in something that you did, and not really on your ex? Ever thought about that? We have a tendency to always focus on the good and happy dandy things that we do and we possess and criticize others, maybe traverse the other road this time.

all the best.