Science has a problem with God?

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Well here are some problems with this awful dialogue.
I haven't actually read it, I was commenting on your comment for the obvious reason!
First, the guy who wrote this seems to think that if you take away Justice or Good you end up with Injustice and Evil. This is plainly false if you think about it. Just because something is not good does not imply that something is evil. It can be the case that action x is NEITHER. Similarly, if something is not Just it does not follow that it is unjust; it can be neutral. So action X is not evil by virtue of the fact that it is not good nor is state of affairs Y unjust by virtue that it is not just.
It is true not every action has a moral value in it.. but generally if you take justice and good away, then it will leave the two other options, evil or neutrality!
Second, the part about science is ridiculous. No reasonable person, let alone a professor of philosophy, is going to claim that God does not exist because we can't hear him, touch him, see him, smell him, taste him(?). The fact that dialogue set the prof up as someone who only believes in things that can be verifiable by this criteria is clearly a straw man argument against a naturalist/atheist. scientists and the like have no problem believing in things they can;t see as long as they have sufficient secondary evidence. That's why we know atoms exist. The argument that the Prof should have made to avoid the straw-man that is contained in this dialogue is "I don't see any direct evidence for God nor do I see any secondary evidence for God"
I haven't come across a philosophy professor who said that indeed but have come across one history chain smoking teacher who has and at the tender formative years, she'd always remark, 'there is no God' 'what does god have to do with it' just for the mere fact that a student would comment with 'Oh my God'.. so to it is quite possible.. it is a hypothetical your pal skaveau is always smitten with inane hypotheticals and expects everyone to build on his empty premises you can do the same here
So all in all, the first part of this dialogue is just a bad answer to the Problem of Evil. The second part is a clear cut straw-man argument in that no atheist that I have ever met would hold the beliefs that this professor does.
Again, haven't read it will have to go with your words and there is no reason to distrust you!
Just to point out, the dialogue is even written in a crappy way. What sort of professor says "how dare you" to a student for saying his premise is flawed? Has this author ever sat in a class? The author is trying too hard to demonize the prof in the dialogue. I mean it's bad enough to give him such a crappy set of arguments but to paint him as jerk too is just a poor attempt to getting readers on the side of the student. And the last bit is hilarious about the Ali Jinnah thing. I don't think Muhammad ali jinnah would quote the Bible...so this should have been edited before being posted. Just looks bad!
Maybe the story is fictional.. but there are nasty professors and nasty surgeons and nasty meat handlers .. surely you have come across some.. When I first came to the U.S and of course I didn't speak English, and couldn't express myself.. my ESL teacher took my book and threw it at me.. at the time I thought that was normal, but she was fired later and not because of me ( I didn't have enough sense to complain) but I suppose most parents who pay nearly Harvard tuition for a private school expect that their children should be taught without abuse.. so frankly you never know!


I'll have to see the bible quote part, I don't see any reason why Muhammad ali Jinnah couldn't quote the bible? surely there is no law against it?

all the best
 
I am really not in a mood of debate :(

Never! I was just telling you why evil is there!
You described it as some sort of balance, and you did use a comparison to examinations. This specifically though, your personal belief on why evil exists was not what I was responding to.

The professor never even asked about it! His main point was of why did God create evil and that was my response to it! Although yes, I do not completely agree with the Student in this matter.
And an example of neutral action, please :p?
The story is fictional. It never happened.

As for your question (again): I've already given you an example. I could decide to eat a bag of crisps. It is a neutral action. If we assume that to decide to do something good could be something to benefit others and to decide to do something bad would be something to harm others then we could conclude that an amoral action would be something that does not concern itself with doing either good or bad. That is what we would call neutral.

By the logic of the clueless student in the article however, it would be evil of me to eat crisps because it would be an absence of good.
 
Oh, How do you know this never happened(although I am not perfectly sure it happened)? You are saying with such a confidence that it seems that you wrote it yourself!
And sorry, I asked for any neutral action's example :(
I understood its meaning longggggggggg beforeee.....:D
 
Oh, How do you know this never happened(although I am not perfectly sure it happened)? You are saying with such a confidence that it seems that you wrote it yourself!
It is a myth. Cut and paste any of the text into google and you may see Christians using it and Muslims using it. You do not also get philosophy teachers acting like neo-fascists and yelling at their students like the one in the example did. In fact, no class operates like that.

And sorry, I asked for any neutral action's example :(
I understood its meaning longggggggggg beforeee.....:D
I've already answered that. Twice, now.
 
philosophy teachers acting like neo-fascists and yelling at their students like the one in the example did. In fact, no class operates like that.
.

Plenty of teachers and classes operate in exactly that way and sometimes in the best of schools, or were you home schooled?
not good to answer an alleged fallacy with another fallacious claim!

all the best
 
and here is an example of a teacher calling his student a loser:

Rex Roland, a Teacher at Enka Middle School in North Carolina, in Trouble for Calling Student a Loser on her Paper
Rex Roland, who teaches sixth grade at Enka Middle School in Candler, North Carolina, said he was joking when he called one of his students a 'loser' on her paper, but her mother Patty Clement does not see it that way.

She wants Rex Roland to be suspended.
This is not the first time Mr. Roland has called that student a loser either. Back in November he also wrote 'loser' in red ink on the girl's paper and this time he wrote 'minus 20% for being a loser' and then underlined 'loser' twice. ABC has a video report of the story.
Patty Clement complained about the conduct in November when it happened the first time, but now it has happened again, she wants Rex Roland to be suspended.

http://www.nowpublic.com/strange/rex-roland-n-c-teacher-calls-student-loser-her-paper-2590157.html

you speak as if professors and teachers are these ordained saints.. surely you can make a point for your case without resorting to even more incorrect reasoning..
you know two fallacious claims will not nullify each other!

all the best
 
Whatever, it is true or not, I have replied to your objection.
I've already answered that. Twice, now.
Sorry, not yet :)
You just indirectly, once more, told me the meaning of "neutral".
 
Ok.You gave me an example.
But the professor wanted to ask what's evil.And I agree that the student should have answered
"Absence of Good is Evil or Neutrality"
not just evil!
But if there is no evil, there is good.He is doing a good action!
What's bad in it? And the antonym for bad is good not neutral!
Either bad or good!
Good actions are not always done for others
He is eating and that's good!
 
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Ok.You gave me an example.
But the professor wanted to ask what's evil.And I agree that the student should have answered
"Absence of Good is Evil or Neutrality"
not just evil!
But if there is no evil, there is good.He is doing a good action!
What's bad in it? And the antonym for bad is good not neutral!
Either bad or good!
Good actions are not always done for others
He is eating and that's good!
This is just semantics. We firstly, have no reason to believe that 'evil' or 'good' exists (or that it means anything) independently from human affairs, so to objectively declare 'evil' as an absence of good (as if that means anything to the universe) is a meaningless projection of human affairs.

Secondly, there being an 'absence of good' doesn't tell us much about anything really. We can only declare things as 'evil' when we describe what we are referring to. Perhaps not doing anything can be an enabler for evil, but it is not necessarily such or so.
 
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You can't get it.You see the word "Good" here as doing better for others or nature.Good is for oneself or others.
And man is innocent.Thats what Islam says.But Satan is the one who whispers evil into the man secretly.So Evil is not committed by ourselves.But as you are an atheist, you wont believe something as Satan.
We will never have the conscience by ourselves.Yet we are shown it.
But what I am talking about is bounded by Good and Evil and does not involve Neutrality.
 
τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ;1320128 said:
I haven't actually read it, I was commenting on your comment for the obvious reason!

It is true not every action has a moral value in it.. but generally if you take justice and good away, then it will leave the two other options, evil or neutrality!

I haven't come across a philosophy professor who said that indeed but have come across one history chain smoking teacher who has and at the tender formative years, she'd always remark, 'there is no God' 'what does god have to do with it' just for the mere fact that a student would comment with 'Oh my God'.. so to it is quite possible.. it is a hypothetical your pal skaveau is always smitten with inane hypotheticals and expects everyone to build on his empty premises you can do the same here

Again, haven't read it will have to go with your words and there is no reason to distrust you!

Maybe the story is fictional.. but there are nasty professors and nasty surgeons and nasty meat handlers .. surely you have come across some.. When I first came to the U.S and of course I didn't speak English, and couldn't express myself.. my ESL teacher took my book and threw it at me.. at the time I thought that was normal, but she was fired later and not because of me ( I didn't have enough sense to complain) but I suppose most parents who pay nearly Harvard tuition for a private school expect that their children should be taught without abuse.. so frankly you never know!


I'll have to see the bible quote part, I don't see any reason why Muhammad ali Jinnah couldn't quote the bible? surely there is no law against it?

all the best

Oh, well in that case you should read it! I think, if anything, it's of comedic value.

Anyway, yeah I guess there are some jerk professors out there (I've been fortunate enough not to encounter any particularly annoying professors) but I meant that this article is clearly made up as I have seen different versions attributed to both famous Christians and famous Muslims. I am going to take a guess that the origin of this article is Christian given the bible quote. But my point was that if it is indeed made up then the author is just demonizing the professor to get the reader to side with the student. Read it and you'll see what I mean; even if the prof is right he is being painted as a jerk and one is tempted to side with the student just because the prof is such an unpleasant guy.
 
^^
It was just an answer to simple questions.I agree that the Professor could ask more questions, but I am *pretty* sure that there will be answers to it!
 
^^
It was just an answer to simple questions.I agree that the Professor could ask more questions, but I am *pretty* sure that there will be answers to it!

Every single thing the prof in that article says is stupid & and I will be very surprised to see anyone in reality making any of those awful arguments. I guess the point of this article is just a parody or a joke not meant to be taken as a serious dialogue.
 
Every single thing the prof in that article says is stupid & and I will be very surprised to see anyone in reality making any of those awful arguments. I guess the point of this article is just a parody or a joke not meant to be taken as a serious dialogue.

Long ago in the city of Baghdad, there was a Muslim empire. On one side of the River Tigris were the royal palaces and on the other side was the city. The Muslims were gathered in the Royal Palace when an athiest approached them. He said to them, ‘I don’t believe in God, there cannot be a God, you cannot hear Him or see Him, you’re wasting your time! Bring me your best debator and I will debate this issue with him.’
The best debator at the time was Imam Abu Hanifah Rahimullah. A messenger from amongst the Muslims was sent over the River Tigris to the city, where Abu Hanifah Rahimullah was, in order to tell him about the athiest who was awaiting him. On crossing the River Tigris, the messenger conveyed the message to Abu Hanifah Rahimullah saying, ‘Oh Abu Hanifah, an athiest is waiting for you, to debate you, please come!’ Abu Hanifah Rahimullah told the messeneger that he would be on his way.
The messenger went over the River Tigris once again and to the Royal Palaces, where everyone including the athiest awaited the arrival of Abu Hanifah Rahimullah. It was sunset at the time and one hour had passed, but Abu Hanifah Rahimullah still hadn’t arrived. Another hour had passed, but still there was no sign of him. The Muslims started to become tense and worried about his late arrival. They did not want the athiest to think that they were too scared to debate him, yet they did not want to take up the challenge themselves as Abu Hanifah Rahimullah was the best of Debators from amongst the Muslims. Another hour passed, and suddenly the athiest started laughing and said, ‘ Your best debator is too scared! He knows he’s wrong, he is too frightened to come and debate with me. I gurantee he will not turn up today.’
The Muslims increased in apprehension and eventually it had passed midnight, and the athiest had a smile on his face. The clock ticked on, and finally Abu Hanifah Rahimullah had arrived. The Muslims inquired about his lateness and remarked, ‘Oh Abu Hanifah, a messenger sent for you hours ago, and you arrive now, explain your lateness to us.’
Abu Hanifah Rahimullah apologises for his lateness and begins to explain, while the atheist listens to his story.
‘Once the messenger delivered the message to me, I began to make my way to the River Tigris, and on reaching the river bank I realised there was no boat, in order to cross the river. It was getting dark, and I looked around, there was no boat anywhere nor was there a navigator or a sailor in order for me to cross the river to get to the Royal Palaces. I continued to look around for a boat, as I did not want the athiest to think I was running away and did not want to debate with him.
I was standing on the river bank looking for a navigator or a boat when something caught my attention in the middle of the river. I looked forward, and to my amazement I saw planks of wood rising to the surface from the sea bed. I was shocked, amazed, I couldn’t believe what I saw seeing. Ready made planks of wood were rising up to the surface and joining together. They were all the same width and length, I was astounded at what I saw.
I continued to look into the middle of the river, and then I saw nails coming up from the sea floor. They positioned themselves onto the boat and held the planks together, without them being banged. I stood in amazement and thought to myself, ‘Oh Allah, how can this happen, planks of wood rising to the surface by itself, and then nails positioning themselves onto the boat without being banged?’ I could not undertsand what was happening before my eyes.’
The athiest meanwhile was listening with a smile on his face. Abu Hanifah Rahimullah continued, ‘I was still standing on the river bank watching these planks of wood join together with nails. I could see water seeping through the gaps in the wood, and suddenly I saw a sealant appear from the river and it began sealing the gaps without someone having poured it, again I thought, ‘Ya Allah, how is this possible, how can sealant appear and seal the gaps without someone having poured it, and nails appear without someone having banged them.’ I looked closer and I could see a boat forming before my eyes, I stood in amazement and was filled with shock. All of a sudden a sail appeared and I thought to myself, ‘How is this happening, a boat has appeared before my eyes by itself, planks of wood, nails, sealant and now a sail, but how can I use this boat in order to cross the river to the Royal Palaces?’ I stood staring in wonderment and suddenly the boat began to move. It came towards me against the current. It stood floating beside me while I was on the river bank, as if telling me to embark onto it. I went on the boat and yet again it began to move. There was no navigator or sailor on the boat, and the boat began to travel towards the direction of the royal palaces, without anyone having programmed it as to where to go. I could not understand what was happening, and how this boat had formed and was taking me to my destination against the flow of water. The boat eventually reached the other side of the River Tigris and I disembarked. I turned around and the boat had disappeared, and that is why I am late.’
At this moment, the athiest brust out laughing and remarked, ‘Oh Abu Hanifah, I heard that you were the best debator from amongst the Muslims, I heard that you were the wisest, the most knowledgable from amongst your people. From seeing you today, I can say that you show none of these qualities. You speak of a boat appearing from nowhere, without someone having built it. Nails positioning themselves without someone having banged them, sealant being poured without someone having poured it, and the boat taking you to your destination without a navigator against the tide, your taking childish, your talking rediculous, I swear I do not belive a word of it!’
Abu Hanifah Rahimullah turned to the athiest and replied, ‘You don’t believe a word of it? You dont believe that nails can appear by themselves? You dont believe sealant can be poured by itself? You dont believe that a boat can move without a navigator, hence you don’t believe that a boat can appear without a boat maker?’
The athiest remarked defiantly, ‘Yes I dont believe a word of it!’
Abu Hanifah Rahimullah replied, ‘If you cannot believe that a boat came into being without a boat maker, than this is only a boat, how can you believe that the whole world, the universe, the stars, the oceans, and the planets came into being without a creator?
The athiest astonished at his reply got up and fled.
 
^^^^
I simply love this story.Thanks for the share!
Allah knows better if this article(which I posted) is true or not.But listen, if your heart is locked up, you can't believe from the greatest proof or dialouge or whatever too!
Seek for Guidance! Seek it yourself! Before verbally fighting with others, I strongly recommend you, argue yourself.
I think Arguments are of no value.If you raise a question, you will get 6 answers and neither of any arguer will believe in his rival or accept his opinion.Believe me! Till it gets your interest, you will never believe him!
I kindly ask you to do this!
Thanks :)
 
Long ago in the city of Baghdad, there was a Muslim empire. On one side of the River Tigris were the royal palaces and on the other side was the city. The Muslims were gathered in the Royal Palace when an athiest approached them. He said to them, ‘I don’t believe in God, there cannot be a God, you cannot hear Him or see Him, you’re wasting your time! Bring me your best debator and I will debate this issue with him.’
The best debator at the time was Imam Abu Hanifah Rahimullah. A messenger from amongst the Muslims was sent over the River Tigris to the city, where Abu Hanifah Rahimullah was, in order to tell him about the athiest who was awaiting him. On crossing the River Tigris, the messenger conveyed the message to Abu Hanifah Rahimullah saying, ‘Oh Abu Hanifah, an athiest is waiting for you, to debate you, please come!’ Abu Hanifah Rahimullah told the messeneger that he would be on his way.
The messenger went over the River Tigris once again and to the Royal Palaces, where everyone including the athiest awaited the arrival of Abu Hanifah Rahimullah. It was sunset at the time and one hour had passed, but Abu Hanifah Rahimullah still hadn’t arrived. Another hour had passed, but still there was no sign of him. The Muslims started to become tense and worried about his late arrival. They did not want the athiest to think that they were too scared to debate him, yet they did not want to take up the challenge themselves as Abu Hanifah Rahimullah was the best of Debators from amongst the Muslims. Another hour passed, and suddenly the athiest started laughing and said, ‘ Your best debator is too scared! He knows he’s wrong, he is too frightened to come and debate with me. I gurantee he will not turn up today.’
The Muslims increased in apprehension and eventually it had passed midnight, and the athiest had a smile on his face. The clock ticked on, and finally Abu Hanifah Rahimullah had arrived. The Muslims inquired about his lateness and remarked, ‘Oh Abu Hanifah, a messenger sent for you hours ago, and you arrive now, explain your lateness to us.’
Abu Hanifah Rahimullah apologises for his lateness and begins to explain, while the atheist listens to his story.
‘Once the messenger delivered the message to me, I began to make my way to the River Tigris, and on reaching the river bank I realised there was no boat, in order to cross the river. It was getting dark, and I looked around, there was no boat anywhere nor was there a navigator or a sailor in order for me to cross the river to get to the Royal Palaces. I continued to look around for a boat, as I did not want the athiest to think I was running away and did not want to debate with him.
I was standing on the river bank looking for a navigator or a boat when something caught my attention in the middle of the river. I looked forward, and to my amazement I saw planks of wood rising to the surface from the sea bed. I was shocked, amazed, I couldn’t believe what I saw seeing. Ready made planks of wood were rising up to the surface and joining together. They were all the same width and length, I was astounded at what I saw.
I continued to look into the middle of the river, and then I saw nails coming up from the sea floor. They positioned themselves onto the boat and held the planks together, without them being banged. I stood in amazement and thought to myself, ‘Oh Allah, how can this happen, planks of wood rising to the surface by itself, and then nails positioning themselves onto the boat without being banged?’ I could not undertsand what was happening before my eyes.’
The athiest meanwhile was listening with a smile on his face. Abu Hanifah Rahimullah continued, ‘I was still standing on the river bank watching these planks of wood join together with nails. I could see water seeping through the gaps in the wood, and suddenly I saw a sealant appear from the river and it began sealing the gaps without someone having poured it, again I thought, ‘Ya Allah, how is this possible, how can sealant appear and seal the gaps without someone having poured it, and nails appear without someone having banged them.’ I looked closer and I could see a boat forming before my eyes, I stood in amazement and was filled with shock. All of a sudden a sail appeared and I thought to myself, ‘How is this happening, a boat has appeared before my eyes by itself, planks of wood, nails, sealant and now a sail, but how can I use this boat in order to cross the river to the Royal Palaces?’ I stood staring in wonderment and suddenly the boat began to move. It came towards me against the current. It stood floating beside me while I was on the river bank, as if telling me to embark onto it. I went on the boat and yet again it began to move. There was no navigator or sailor on the boat, and the boat began to travel towards the direction of the royal palaces, without anyone having programmed it as to where to go. I could not understand what was happening, and how this boat had formed and was taking me to my destination against the flow of water. The boat eventually reached the other side of the River Tigris and I disembarked. I turned around and the boat had disappeared, and that is why I am late.’
At this moment, the athiest brust out laughing and remarked, ‘Oh Abu Hanifah, I heard that you were the best debator from amongst the Muslims, I heard that you were the wisest, the most knowledgable from amongst your people. From seeing you today, I can say that you show none of these qualities. You speak of a boat appearing from nowhere, without someone having built it. Nails positioning themselves without someone having banged them, sealant being poured without someone having poured it, and the boat taking you to your destination without a navigator against the tide, your taking childish, your talking rediculous, I swear I do not belive a word of it!’
Abu Hanifah Rahimullah turned to the athiest and replied, ‘You don’t believe a word of it? You dont believe that nails can appear by themselves? You dont believe sealant can be poured by itself? You dont believe that a boat can move without a navigator, hence you don’t believe that a boat can appear without a boat maker?’
The athiest remarked defiantly, ‘Yes I dont believe a word of it!’
Abu Hanifah Rahimullah replied, ‘If you cannot believe that a boat came into being without a boat maker, than this is only a boat, how can you believe that the whole world, the universe, the stars, the oceans, and the planets came into being without a creator?
The athiest astonished at his reply got up and fled.

Spaces between paragraphs. Use them.

In any case, that one circulates the internet as well.
 
Alikum Wa Rehmatullahi Wa Barakatuh! :statisfie

@ sis glo:

I have heard so many believers in God make claims of scientific proof, and yet none of them has ever convinced the atheist community.

So? Sis, our job is to only give the “Message”, its acceptance or rejection is the listener’s own choice! Saying the above statement is wrong as only Allah has the power to change hearts. How can you expect a human to make an unbeliever believe, whose heart has already turned to stone???

“Deaf, dumb and blind they are, they would not listen.”

And Allah says in Quran:

“As to those who reject Faith, it is same to them whether thou warn them or not, they will not believe.
Allah has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty that they (incur).”
(Chapter 2, Verses 6 and 7)

So sis, humans can only give the message, they don’t have the power of convincing except by Allah’s will. Haven’t you ever encountered a real stubborn person who would yield to nothing whatsoever?

There are men who do grasp the glimpses of what is truth, but still will not accept it, how can one than convince such people. Also that in many cases, Allah does make our attempts fruitful!

Yes, people usually find some 'atheist' or another, who allegedly found scientific proof for the existance of God and became a believer ... but by large atheists remain unimpressed.

Sis, that’s why we admire those who follow “truth”!:statisfie Otherwise if acceptance of truth would have been that easy, then everyone would have made it directly to Paradise. So here lies the test, if people accept truth, they accept it for themselves, and if they reject it, they do harm to their own souls!


Also that there are only a few people in all the past and present generations in this world who accept the “Right Way”. That is why Allah calls mankind in loss in Surah Al-Asr that man is in loss except those who practice the four commandments of Allah mentioned in that Surah. Very few people relative to the huge population of the world would make it to Paradise as following “the right way” is not a child’s play.

An atheist friend once said 'If God knows me so well, then he also knows the way I think and feel. If he wants me to believe in him and follow him, why does he not show himself to me in a way which he knows would convince me?

“People try to settle the question in their way, and not in Allah’s way. (They say, Oh yes! We’ll believe if Allah do this and this)…(or in this case, why not He show Himself to me in a wa.y which He knows would convince me?)… That will not do. The decision in all questions belongs to Allah.”

Or maybe this can be a better example:

“Well I’ve my exams drawing near and previously I gave a B + result. My teacher really wants me to top in the class. But he knows my weaknesses and problems like “lack of concentration”. So if he wants me to top in the class, why doesn’t he simply show me the question paper which would be there in exam? And why does he want me to give paper at all at the first hand?! He can simply give me an A+ without me going through the lengthy papers!”

Does it make sense to you? If the things would have been that easy, then why should there have been an admiration for the people who follow the “Light”? Allah does give us all chances in life to return to His Way. Our each and every breath is a living witness to the fact that Allah is still giving us His rope, and we still have chance to return to Him. Some turn quickly, some take considerable time, and some never return at all! Your friend seems to have a desire for the “Right way” so if he really wants to seek the truth, Allah will make it easy for him/her.

Everything requires time, so if your friend really seeks for guidance, Allah will make him/her get it. It is His promise in Quran. But the passions should be true you see!
 
@ Skavau and Brother MMohammed:

I don’t know exactly what long discussions you people are having but some glimpses I got tells me that Skavau has some objection on calling this life an “Examination”!

@ Skavau:

Ok, so if you have problem with the word examination, then let’s call life a “TEST”. It is a test for the Hereafter. Allah has repeated many times in Quran that He has made this life a test and people who will succeed in this test will earn Paradise as their reward and those who will fail in this test will have Hell-Fire as their punishment.

Now I would like to see what problem, (as you seems to have many :rollseyes) ,would you have with this “Statement” which I’ve just mentioned (in case, IF you’ve any prob, otherwise if you’ve understood it, then it’s a great pleasure! )
 

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