Science has a problem with God?

[Missinglinks]

Originally Posted by glo
I have heard so many believers in God make claims of scientific proof, and yet none of them has ever convinced the atheist community.

Duuuhhh otherwise there wouldn't be an atheist community anymore! haha.. i think for the surviving of their idology and community they just have to ignore how much proof there is for Allah they just say "no proof", because everybody can say no, it's so easy and so strong, with "no" you can survive many centuries...

Yes, people usually find some 'atheist' or another, who allegedly found scientific proof for the existance of God and became a believer ... but by large atheists remain unimpressed.

let's change dimensions... Yes, people usually find some 'muslim' or another, who allegedly found scientific proof for the (lie of) non-existance of God and became a atheist ... but by large muslims remain unimpressed

so what about this, then if that is your proof, then this is our proof...

 

[MMohammed]

Ok, so if you have problem with the word examination, then let’s call life a “TEST”.

.For me Exams are also TEST

 

[Skavau]

I don’t know exactly what long discussions you people are having but some glimpses I got tells me that Skavau has some objection on calling this life an “Examination”!

Ok, so if you have problem with the word examination, then let’s call life a “TEST”. It is a test for the Hereafter. Allah has repeated many times in Quran that He has made this life a test and people who will succeed in this test will earn Paradise as their reward and those who will fail in this test will have Hell-Fire as their punishment.

Now I would like to see what problem, (as you seems to have many :rollseyes) ,would you have with this “Statement” which I’ve just mentioned (in case, IF you’ve any prob, otherwise if you’ve understood it, then it’s a great pleasure! )

Playing semantics does not change the problem I have here. A test, as MMohammed has pointed out - in this context is the same as an examination. At any rate, even if you did describe life as a test for us to participate in - it is unravelled in three simple ways:

Firstly, I and other people you would declare as failing the test right now, are not even aware of such a test existing. How can it be insisted that we must be held accountable by the standards of a test that not only did we not agree with to be held to, but are not even aware of?

Secondly, how does failing a test, in any context provide good reason to be repaid with eternal torture?

Thirdly, How do you reconcile the claim that life is a test for the hereafter with the fact that you also (presumably) contend God is all-knowing, and thus by consequence must already be aware and always has been aware of everyone's choices, everyone's beliefs and everyone's understandings on all issues ever?

 

[Lynx]

Long ago in the city of Baghdad, there was a Muslim empire. On one side of the River Tigris were the royal palaces and on the other side was the city. The Muslims were gathered in the Royal Palace when an athiest approached them. He said to them, ‘I don’t believe in God, there cannot be a God, you cannot hear Him or see Him, you’re wasting your time! Bring me your best debator and I will debate this issue with him.’
The best debator at the time was Imam Abu Hanifah Rahimullah. A messenger from amongst the Muslims was sent over the River Tigris to the city, where Abu Hanifah Rahimullah was, in order to tell him about the athiest who was awaiting him. On crossing the River Tigris, the messenger conveyed the message to Abu Hanifah Rahimullah saying, ‘Oh Abu Hanifah, an athiest is waiting for you, to debate you, please come!’ Abu Hanifah Rahimullah told the messeneger that he would be on his way.
The messenger went over the River Tigris once again and to the Royal Palaces, where everyone including the athiest awaited the arrival of Abu Hanifah Rahimullah. It was sunset at the time and one hour had passed, but Abu Hanifah Rahimullah still hadn’t arrived. Another hour had passed, but still there was no sign of him. The Muslims started to become tense and worried about his late arrival. They did not want the athiest to think that they were too scared to debate him, yet they did not want to take up the challenge themselves as Abu Hanifah Rahimullah was the best of Debators from amongst the Muslims. Another hour passed, and suddenly the athiest started laughing and said, ‘ Your best debator is too scared! He knows he’s wrong, he is too frightened to come and debate with me. I gurantee he will not turn up today.’
The Muslims increased in apprehension and eventually it had passed midnight, and the athiest had a smile on his face. The clock ticked on, and finally Abu Hanifah Rahimullah had arrived. The Muslims inquired about his lateness and remarked, ‘Oh Abu Hanifah, a messenger sent for you hours ago, and you arrive now, explain your lateness to us.’
Abu Hanifah Rahimullah apologises for his lateness and begins to explain, while the atheist listens to his story.
‘Once the messenger delivered the message to me, I began to make my way to the River Tigris, and on reaching the river bank I realised there was no boat, in order to cross the river. It was getting dark, and I looked around, there was no boat anywhere nor was there a navigator or a sailor in order for me to cross the river to get to the Royal Palaces. I continued to look around for a boat, as I did not want the athiest to think I was running away and did not want to debate with him.
I was standing on the river bank looking for a navigator or a boat when something caught my attention in the middle of the river. I looked forward, and to my amazement I saw planks of wood rising to the surface from the sea bed. I was shocked, amazed, I couldn’t believe what I saw seeing. Ready made planks of wood were rising up to the surface and joining together. They were all the same width and length, I was astounded at what I saw.
I continued to look into the middle of the river, and then I saw nails coming up from the sea floor. They positioned themselves onto the boat and held the planks together, without them being banged. I stood in amazement and thought to myself, ‘Oh Allah, how can this happen, planks of wood rising to the surface by itself, and then nails positioning themselves onto the boat without being banged?’ I could not undertsand what was happening before my eyes.’
The athiest meanwhile was listening with a smile on his face. Abu Hanifah Rahimullah continued, ‘I was still standing on the river bank watching these planks of wood join together with nails. I could see water seeping through the gaps in the wood, and suddenly I saw a sealant appear from the river and it began sealing the gaps without someone having poured it, again I thought, ‘Ya Allah, how is this possible, how can sealant appear and seal the gaps without someone having poured it, and nails appear without someone having banged them.’ I looked closer and I could see a boat forming before my eyes, I stood in amazement and was filled with shock. All of a sudden a sail appeared and I thought to myself, ‘How is this happening, a boat has appeared before my eyes by itself, planks of wood, nails, sealant and now a sail, but how can I use this boat in order to cross the river to the Royal Palaces?’ I stood staring in wonderment and suddenly the boat began to move. It came towards me against the current. It stood floating beside me while I was on the river bank, as if telling me to embark onto it. I went on the boat and yet again it began to move. There was no navigator or sailor on the boat, and the boat began to travel towards the direction of the royal palaces, without anyone having programmed it as to where to go. I could not understand what was happening, and how this boat had formed and was taking me to my destination against the flow of water. The boat eventually reached the other side of the River Tigris and I disembarked. I turned around and the boat had disappeared, and that is why I am late.’
At this moment, the athiest brust out laughing and remarked, ‘Oh Abu Hanifah, I heard that you were the best debator from amongst the Muslims, I heard that you were the wisest, the most knowledgable from amongst your people. From seeing you today, I can say that you show none of these qualities. You speak of a boat appearing from nowhere, without someone having built it. Nails positioning themselves without someone having banged them, sealant being poured without someone having poured it, and the boat taking you to your destination without a navigator against the tide, your taking childish, your talking rediculous, I swear I do not belive a word of it!’
Abu Hanifah Rahimullah turned to the athiest and replied, ‘You don’t believe a word of it? You dont believe that nails can appear by themselves? You dont believe sealant can be poured by itself? You dont believe that a boat can move without a navigator, hence you don’t believe that a boat can appear without a boat maker?’
The athiest remarked defiantly, ‘Yes I dont believe a word of it!’
Abu Hanifah Rahimullah replied, ‘If you cannot believe that a boat came into being without a boat maker, than this is only a boat, how can you believe that the whole world, the universe, the stars, the oceans, and the planets came into being without a creator?
The athiest astonished at his reply got up and fled.

If you just wrote 'Argument from Design' it would have been easier ;p

This has nothing to do with the OP nor does it have anything to do with the fact that the OP is a horrible straw-man of the atheist position.

^^^^
I simply love this story.Thanks for the share!
Allah knows better if this article(which I posted) is true or not.But listen, if your heart is locked up, you can't believe from the greatest proof or dialouge or whatever too!
Seek for Guidance! Seek it yourself! Before verbally fighting with others, I strongly recommend you, argue yourself.
I think Arguments are of no value.If you raise a question, you will get 6 answers and neither of any arguer will believe in his rival or accept his opinion.Believe me! Till it gets your interest, you will never believe him!
I kindly ask you to do this!
Thanks

I explained on page 1 why this is such a crappy dialogue and others like Skavu have given even more reasons why it's a crappy dialogue. I am talking about your original post MMohamaed. I think you're victim of your own criticism; even though your position is demonstrated to be false you won't admit it no matter what. You should take some private time and just reflect on these matters. I am afraid it's your heart that's sealed

 

[Masuma]

Calling you to the Way of my LORD!

@ Skavau:

(I’m sorry for the long post…couldn’t summaries it…I would appreciate if you bear with it… busts all your claims, bwaahahahaa!)

Playing semantics does not change the problem I have here. A test, as MMohammed has pointed out - in this context is the same as an examination.

Ah! Big surprise! :rollseyes …I was pointing out the same thing actually. Life is a “test” or it is an “Examination”…can call it by any name.

At any rate, even if you did describe life as a test for us to participate in

Ahan! Wrong there! I don’t but Allah does describe life as a “test for the hereafter”. Don’t change the words…!


Rebuking your claim that people are unaware of this life being a test for the Hereafter:

Brother, keeping your eyes closed won’t change anything. (Pigeon closing its eyes in front of a cat won’t unravel the danger, would it?) If there wouldn’t have been any test followed by strict reckoning at the end, then why should at all there needed to be standards of good and bad deeds? People would have done anything they liked as long as it benefited them as nobody would have questioned them at the end! And if not for God, who could have decided what is good and what is bad? Now don’t start giving examples of the consensus of society on these matters as this democracy is so busted even at its very base that even the pathetic and completely hideous clauses would be accepted by people in majority. If you need an example then I give you the example of Mexico that how people there legalized homosexuality and these people were in majority! So who decides what is good and what is bad? Such people???

Then in that context, a robber, or a rapist, as long as he is not caught, would be fine with what he has done. Why does he need to care at all? There is going to be no questioning for him at the end. Who’s going to take an account? Nobody?!

So this actually undoes your remark that people are not aware of a “test” existing as everyone knows “As you sow, so shall you reap”. Corrupt politicians who became successful at hiding their crimes and killers who were not punished in this world, and when they die; do you think they have reaped what they had sowed? They were not even punished in this world, so now what about their crimes? Are they just going to remain unpunished as according to you there is no “test” so how can there be any reckoning?

This totally makes your argument weak that people don’t know there is a “test”. Or maybe you should have said that people don’t ACCEPT any such “test” existing in this life!


As far as your statement goes that “How can it be insisted that we must be held accountable by the standards of a test that not only did we not agree with to be held to,”
So your agreeing or disagreeing won’t change anything. It is the Will of the Creator and your petty will holds no value in this regard!

Secondly, how does failing a test, in any context provide good reason to be repaid with eternal torture?

That is also the “Will” of the Creator. In one way, it is actually a blessing of Allah for those who’ll make it to Paradise that now they need to undergo no further “tests” and can remain in Paradise for eternity. But of course for the people of Hell, it would be horrible! Also that there is a range of crimes, crimes of higher and lower degree, so it is up to Allah to bring justice to everyone. I mean, a person who was guilty of a minor crime like slapping the other person won’t be simply cast away into Hell! Please! Allah, the most just, won’t punish someone more than what he/she deserves!

Surah ZilZal of Quran, a soul reverberating Surah tells us this:

“1. When the earth is shaken to her utmost convulsion, 2. And the earth throws up her burdens, 3. And man cries out: “What is the matter with her?”, 4. On that day will she declare her tidings: 5. For that your Lord will have given her inspiration. 6. On that day will men proceed in companies sorted out, to be shown their deeds. 7. Then shall anyone who has done an atom’s weight of good see it! 8. And anyone who has done an atom’s weight of evil shall see it!”
(Chapter 99, Verses 1-8)

Thirdly, How do you reconcile the claim that life is a test for the hereafter with the fact that you also (presumably) contend God is all-knowing, and thus by consequence must already be aware and always has been aware of everyone's choices, everyone's beliefs and everyone's understandings on all issues ever?

I must say, a brilliant question asked at the end!;D For this, you need to consider an example:

“There is a very learned Professor who teaches 2 students, Student A and Student B. The Professor observes that Student A is very hard-working whereas Student B is a failure. He doesn’t study at all. One day, Professor announces in class that his past experience tells him that Student A would top in class whereas Student B would fail. The exam time comes and the same thing happens i.e. Student A who studied very hard came first, whereas student B who didn’t study at all failed in the exam. But later on, Student B puts blame on Professor that just because he once announced in the class that I would fail, so I’ve failed for real!”

Now do you think his claim is just? Did he really fail because of Professor’s prediction? Learned Professor only made the statement based on his experience!

The same example goes for us. Allah already knows who will make it to Paradise and who will make it to hell, but He has given us free will to choose whichever way we like. He has given us all chance in world to choose right or wrong. Now just because He is all-knowing, can anyone put blame on him that I’ve failed because Allah is all-knowing?!!!
It’s silly!

Now in the end, I pray for you brother that may Allah show you the “Right way” and open up your heart to Islam!

You know brother, that being an Atheist, you already believe in first part of the Muslim Shahadah

“La-illaha” i.e. “There is no God”

Now we Muslims’ job is to make you accept the second part of Shahadah

“Ill-Allah” i.e. “But Allah”!

May Allah make you accept it too!
And may Allah bless my beloved Dr.Zakir Naik!!!





Wa Akhiru-Dawanaa-An-Alhamdolillahi, Rabbil Alamin!:statisfie

 

[Skavau]

Ah! Big surprise! …I was pointing out the same thing actually. Life is a “test” or it is an “Examination”…can call it by any name.

Yes... okay. Same issue each time nevermind the word choice.

Ahan! Wrong there! I don’t but Allah does describe life as a “test for the hereafter”. Don’t change the words…!

Semantics. I know what you meant indeed. I went on later to reference the fact that you consider life a test for the hereafter.

Brother, keeping your eyes closed won’t change anything. (Pigeon closing its eyes in front of a cat won’t unravel the danger, would it?)

Nevermind how strikingly obvious it is or not to you, billions of people do not see it and are not at all believing of the claim that an afterlife exists. It is all very well to say that they have their eyes closed, but it does not get you closer to demonstrating your claims.

If there wouldn’t have been any test followed by strict reckoning at the end, then why should at all there needed to be standards of good and bad deeds?

This is circular. You ask what is the point of good and bad deeds in the absence of a system of reward and punishment. This is a viewing of them from an Islamic perspective. This is something that your world view sets you up to presume. You measure good and bad by obedience and disobedience respectively, and you justify their relevance by self-interest. In short, it is not my dichtonomy.

People would have done anything they liked as long as it benefited them as nobody would have questioned them at the end!

This is amusingly ironic. You are claiming that without the promise of heaven and the threat of hell to coerce people into acting morally, they would have acted to their own benefit. Can you not see the irony?

You are by your own admission (other as well) only doing good because of the promise of heaven and the potential of hell. That is behavioural constraints based on self-interest.

And if not for God, who could have decided what is good and what is bad?

We could. We have, we do, we will. Morality is by humans, for humans. It is your brand of belief that has you consider otherwise.

Now don’t start giving examples of the consensus of society on these matters as this democracy is so busted even at its very base that even the pathetic and completely hideous clauses would be accepted by people in majority.

A societal consensus is a method to which we discover what the majority wants. It does not however necessitate that a popular vote is a means to discover what ought. This is why in democratic states, we have constitutions so that populism cannot prevail. It is more specifically, why the U.N. Charter of Human Rights exists.

If you need an example then I give you the example of Mexico that how people there legalized homosexuality and these people were in majority! So who decides what is good and what is bad? Such people???

I don't have a problem with the legalisation of homosexuality. Did you imagine I would?

Then in that context, a robber, or a rapist, as long as he is not caught, would be fine with what he has done. Why does he need to care at all? There is going to be no questioning for him at the end. Who’s going to take an account? Nobody?!

This has strayed very far from my original point, which if I may remind you: was about people being unaware of life (as you claim) being a test for the hereafter.

At any rate, no-one is claiming that a robber, or a rapist necessarily must take guilt in what they had done. It is up to each nations own police and criminal law system that action is taken against the rapist or the robber.

So this actually undoes your remark that people are not aware of a “test” existing as everyone knows “As you sow, so shall you reap”.

I have no idea how you think what you said at all validates that. I am still just as unconvinced as are billions of other people that a hereafter exists and that we will be judged for our actions here on earth when entering it.

Corrupt politicians who became successful at hiding their crimes and killers who were not punished in this world, and when they die; do you think they have reaped what they had sowed? They were not even punished in this world, so now what about their crimes? Are they just going to remain unpunished as according to you there is no “test” so how can there be any reckoning?

Yes. There is no credible evidence of life existing after death. All evidence indicates that our existence is entirely dependent on our bodies. Whilst this may come across to you as somewhat nihilistic, it is an observed reality. Your confusion over this issue is a projection of your steadfast perspective that all morals have a foundation in reality. You then project this perspective onto my world view and then question how it is consistent.

At any rate, you cannot derive an is from an ought (the converse of the naturalistic fallacy, eh). Just because it might be nicer if we could rely on reality vesting out some retribution on the historical dictators and unrepentant mass-murderers does not mean that it does. Know that also, just because that nature is apathetic to the fate of the contemptible does not mean that we ought to. Our efforts at civilisation and our protection of it in the face of chaos can only be produced in life and we ought to put more value into that.

This totally makes your argument weak that people don’t know there is a “test”. Or maybe you should have said that people don’t ACCEPT any such “test” existing in this life!

No, you have changed my words. There is no evidence of a 'test' existing that determines our fate in some possible afterlife. I am not convinced by such a claim that says it exists, and neither are billions of other people.

As far as your statement goes that “How can it be insisted that we must be held accountable by the standards of a test that not only did we not agree with to be held to,”
So your agreeing or disagreeing won’t change anything. It is the Will of the Creator and your petty will holds no value in this regard!

You describe God as a celestial dictator. I am told repeatedly that perhaps I ought to be grateful for the gift of life so bestowed upon me by this deity. I am frequently reminded that if it was not for him I would not exist, but apparently this gratitude must extend to capitulation of privacy and free-will in favour of eternal submission (on threat of eternal torture). In light of these demands as a price for my existence - what is there to be thankful for? At the dawn of humanity's existence (whether you profess it to be merely thousands of years ago or longer) we were ignorant and frightened. We were created, without our permission to live in a hostile world full of natural disasters, natural diseases and natural predators. For thousands and thousands of years almost every human endured short and harsh lives just to survive. Not withstanding the natural hostility, we would also dive further into destruction by engaging in petty wars over territory, theology and power. This poor, pathetic existnece that billions of people still suffer through in parts of the world is something that we should have been thankful for? What masochism is this that you promote?

That is also the “Will” of the Creator. In one way, it is actually a blessing of Allah for those who’ll make it to Paradise that now they need to undergo no further “tests” and can remain in Paradise for eternity. But of course for the people of Hell, it would be horrible! Also that there is a range of crimes, crimes of higher and lower degree, so it is up to Allah to bring justice to everyone. I mean, a person who was guilty of a minor crime like slapping the other person won’t be simply cast away into Hell! Please! Allah, the most just, won’t punish someone more than what he/she deserves!

I do not believe in a God not because of some spiteful disobedience, or as some arrogant belief that I do not need to - but simply do not believe in a deity entirely because I am not convinced. I simply do not believe it likely that a divine being exists. I do go so far as to state that I actually cannot believe in a God until specific evidence or logical argument has been presented sufficiently. Are you to say that my sincerity born from my free-will that God decreed I should have would be my downfall? It would be my confession towards my punishment? How can you defend the concept of someone that would punish people entirely for getting their information wrong?

Also, I should ask do you consider it a proportionate response to torture someone infinitely for finite crimes? If so, I should ask what is even the point of the retribution? They have no opportunity to present a case, or no chance to eventually leave their state - they must suffer for eternity. It comes across as blatant sadism as there is no purpose for it.

I must say, a brilliant question asked at the end! For this, you need to consider an example:

“There is a very learned Professor who teaches 2 students, Student A and Student B. The Professor observes that Student A is very hard-working whereas Student B is a failure. He doesn’t study at all. One day, Professor announces in class that his past experience tells him that Student A would top in class whereas Student B would fail. The exam time comes and the same thing happens i.e. Student A who studied very hard came first, whereas student B who didn’t study at all failed in the exam. But later on, Student B puts blame on Professor that just because he once announced in the class that I would fail, so I’ve failed for real!”

The Professor is not omniscient. Despite his suspicions, he could never have actually known that. God however, is professed to be omniscient with an unquestionable and intricant understanding of every being that has ever existed and will exist. There is no way that God could not know the fate of every single being. Indeed, God is not only omniscient in this regard but he willed everything. He willed the existence of heaven and hell, and with the foreknowledge that billions of people could not live up to his standards, he still pressed on regardless.

This does not sound like inspirational design to me, but comes across as capricious.

The same example goes for us. Allah already knows who will make it to Paradise and who will make it to hell, but He has given us free will to choose whichever way we like. He has given us all chance in world to choose right or wrong. Now just because He is all-knowing, can anyone put blame on him that I’ve failed because Allah is all-knowing?!!!
It’s silly!

This is a direct adaption from an individual at another forum known as THHuxley by me. I am cutting and pasting a text document I have saved in order to sufficiently present what I mean:

A: Allah is proclaimed to be omniscient (Premise 1). Allah therefore knows the outcome of every action, event and has knowledge of every fact.
B: A human choice is an event. If I decide to go to the shops, then I am initiating a state of affairs.
C: If Allah knows the outcome of every event then he knows the outcome of every single human choice. (Premise 1)
D: If Allah knows the outcome of any future choice by any being, then the outcome described is the only possible outcome because:

D1: If any outcome from a human choice was different than Allah's knowledge then Allah would be wrong. This contradicts Premise 1.​

D2: If Allah was wrong then Allah would not be omniscient.​

E: If any choice has only one outcome then there is no choice at all. (Premise 3) (Free Choice relies on the ability to do otherwise. Free-Will relies on the ability of choice. Both are made redundant by the existence of omnipotence contained within a single source (in this scenario: contained within God). If God is omniscient then God necessarily knows the result of all actions within humanity. If all actions within humanity are known then there is no such things as Free-Choice since the outcome has already been pre-seen. If this is the case then there is no Free-Will because Free-Will is dependent upon the ability to exercise choice.)
F: If every choice has only one outcome then there is actual no choice at all, only events.
G: If Allah is omniscient, then every choice is no choice at all. (Omniscience necessitates the ability of knowledge of all outcomes: past, present and future. This also necessarily leads to God knowing all future events that will happen. If all future events are known to happen, then all human choices are also known to happen. If all human choices are known to happen and cannot change then they lose the status of 'choice' and simply become rendered into events. As Premise 3 states, choice relies on the possibility of more than one specific outcome. If only a specific outcome can happen then there is no choice, only consequences of events. Only under omnipotence can this happen as all future 'choices' would already be known by the source which possesses omnipotence.)

If Allah is omniscient, then there is no free-will at all.

You know brother, that being an Atheist, you already believe in first part of the Muslim Shahadah

“La-illaha” i.e. “There is no God”

Now we Muslims’ job is to make you accept the second part of Shahadah

“Ill-Allah” i.e. “But Allah”!

I am aware. Zakir Naik is so fond of saying it. It is a cheap point, really.

 

[Masuma]

Calling you to the way of my LORD!

Nevermind how strikingly obvious it is or not to you, billions of people do not see it and are not at all believing of the claim that an afterlife exists.

What a dumb statement to make! Of course I know there are many Atheists out there in the world, exceeding far more in numbers than the believers! And that is the reason we Muslims strive and struggle to present Allah’s message to you people, otherwise there wasn’t any need!

It is all very well to say that they have their eyes closed, but it does not get you closer to demonstrating your claims.

I’ve demonstrated my claim and busted yours mashAllah in a good way by the grace of Al-Mighty. Now if you don’t believe it then what can I do!

This is circular. You ask what is the point of good and bad deeds in the absence of a system of reward and punishment. This is a viewing of them from an Islamic perspective.

I DON’T say that “what is the POINT of good or bad deeds”! I’ve said that then there will be NO DISTINCTION BETWEEN A GOOD OR BAD DEED! PEOPLE WOULD HAVE THEIR OWN STANDARDS OF DECIDING WHICH ONE IS TO BE CALLED A GOOD AND WHICH ONE TO BE LABELED AS A BAD DEED!

I hope now you may read it properly! ;D

You measure good and bad by obedience and disobedience respectively, and you justify their relevance by self-interest. In short, it is not my dichtonomy.

Ahan! Again wrong quoting! I measure good and bad deeds by their nature, judges it through the norms given to us by Allah in Holy Quran. But tell me brother, , how do you judge which deed falls in what category? I reckon, through SOCIETY norms most probably? Hmmm? So there is the whole problem! Your society may regard something as good or neutral whereas another society may regard that same thing as absurd, hideous and blasphemous! So which society is right then? Where does the consensus go now? And I tried to give you an example in this regard which you so clearly paid no attention to and that is of Mexico where people legalized homosexuality! Now in that society, this crime is going to be considered no more a crime whereas if seeing it from another society’s perspective, it is one of the most hideous in the list. They consider it unnatural and they have their solid reasons with them that if even half of the population turned gay or lesbians, the society would soon see an epidemic of diseases, incurable ones, which were never heard of before. The society would see a drastic decrease in population growth, and God knows what else! So which society is gaining ground here?

In this way, different societies will have their different norms but who will decide which thing is right and what is wrong? So the answer is that only God can. He created us, and knows our nature even far more better than ourselves and so if He says something is lawful, we accept it and if He forbids us from something, we abstain from it. In this way only, the unity and peace can be achieved, otherwise we have seen what happens when two different groups promote their own theologies like in world wars!

You are by your own admission (other as well) only doing good because of the promise of heaven and the potential of hell. That is behavioural constraints based on self-interest.

Gives me great grief of how much you have narrowed down and belittled this beautiful aspect of life! Yukh! This is just one aspect, one initiative which encourages people to do good deeds and keeps a check on those who might turn into black sheep of the community if not been warned already! Some people may do it for the love of Allah but my argument still holds, and is strongly based that if there would not have been a reckoning in the life hereafter, people would have done whatever they liked! And I think you’ve failed miserably to prove me wrong here!

BTW in Islam, there is no self-interest actually but I can very well understand that you calling others as being self-interested provide nothing but a reflection of your own mind.

I don't have a problem with the legalisation of homosexuality. Did you imagine I would?

Now if I’ll say “something” here, you obviously not going to like it so keeping it civil, I move forward… (Bwahahaaha!)


Now let me tell you one more thing. Our judgment of right and wrong is also provided to us by Allah. It is the quality which He has bestowed us to distinguish between good and bad. So everything is actually already happening by the “will” of Allah and so your acceptance or rejection of Him won’t make any difference!

I am still just as unconvinced as are billions of other people that a hereafter exists and that we will be judged for our actions here on earth when entering it.

So what can I do brother, I don’t even care whether you are convinced or not! (Urdu sentence defines it better, “Meine thaika tou nai lay rakha apko convince karnay ka!" Hee-hee!) Never mind, I’m doing what I’m required to i.e. only giving you the message of Allah. Now giving you guidance is in the hands of Al-Mighty only and not for me to worry about!

Saying it as a matter of fact, you too have totally failed in convincing me of your views that no “reckoning” would be done in the hereafter. You’ve also failed to explain that how do you defend this idea of robbers and rapists, who saved themselves from the worldly punishment, be punished for their crimes? As according to you there will be no reckoning so does that mean that these evil people will not be punished ever? Now this sentence busts your argument so completely!

This is a direct adaption from an individual at another forum known as THHuxley by me. I am cutting and pasting a text document I have saved in order to sufficiently present what I mean:

A: Allah is proclaimed to be omniscient (Premise 1). Allah therefore knows the outcome of every action, event and has knowledge of every fact.
B: A human choice is an event. If I decide to go to the shops, then I am initiating a state of affairs.
C: If Allah knows the outcome of every event then he knows the outcome of every single human choice. (Premise 1)
D: If Allah knows the outcome of any future choice by any being, then the outcome described is the only possible outcome because:
D1: If any outcome from a human choice was different than Allah's knowledge then Allah would be wrong. This contradicts Premise 1.
D2: If Allah was wrong then Allah would not be omniscient.
E: If any choice has only one outcome then there is no choice at all. (Premise 3) (Free Choice relies on the ability to do otherwise. Free-Will relies on the ability of choice. Both are made redundant by the existence of omnipotence contained within a single source (in this scenario: contained within God). If God is omniscient then God necessarily knows the result of all actions within humanity. If all actions within humanity are known then there is no such things as Free-Choice since the outcome has already been pre-seen. If this is the case then there is no Free-Will because Free-Will is dependent upon the ability to exercise choice.)
F: If every choice has only one outcome then there is actual no choice at all, only events.
G: If Allah is omniscient, then every choice is no choice at all. (Omniscience necessitates the ability of knowledge of all outcomes: past, present and future. This also necessarily leads to God knowing all future events that will happen. If all future events are known to happen, then all human choices are also known to happen. If all human choices are known to happen and cannot change then they lose the status of 'choice' and simply become rendered into events. As Premise 3 states, choice relies on the possibility of more than one specific outcome. If only a specific outcome can happen then there is no choice, only consequences of events. Only under omnipotence can this happen as all future 'choices' would already be known by the source which possesses omnipotence.)

If Allah is omniscient, then there is no free-will at all.

Whaaat! I’m not going to waste my poor mind on this whole word puzzle or whatever! I already have physics and chemistry to do! :hiding: What I can do is to answer to this part later on after my exam is over.

I am aware. Zakir Naik is so fond of saying it. It is a cheap point, really.

Not as cheap as the mocking and scoffing statements you pass! …it can’t beat you in that! Bwahahaaha!

Now this marks the end of our discussion. I won’t be answering your posts as long as my papers are there but I look forward to more discussions in future. inshAllah!

I still pray for you that may Allah show you the right way! Ameen.


eace:

 

[Argamemnon]

You can't get it.You see the word "Good" here as doing better for others or nature.Good is for oneself or others.
And man is innocent.Thats what Islam says.But Satan is the one who whispers evil into the man secretly.So Evil is not committed by ourselves.But as you are an atheist, you wont believe something as Satan.
We will never have the conscience by ourselves.Yet we are shown it.
But what I am talking about is bounded by Good and Evil and does not involve Neutrality.

That's not true bro, let's not put all the blame on shaytan for our evil deeds. Human beings are perfectly capable of doing evil deeds without shaytan helping them.

 

[Skavau]

What a dumb statement to make! Of course I know there are many Atheists out there in the world, exceeding far more in numbers than the believers! And that is the reason we Muslims strive and struggle to present Allah’s message to you people, otherwise there wasn’t any need!

Actually, atheists, agnostics, non-religious, secular etc do not exceed theists or Muslims. Click here.

I’ve demonstrated my claim and busted yours mashAllah in a good way by the grace of Al-Mighty. Now if you don’t believe it then what can I do!

No, you haven't. You've responded by bringing up red herrings and other pointless topics regarding morality (that had nothing to do with my first point).

I DON’T say that “what is the POINT of good or bad deeds”! I’ve said that then there will be NO DISTINCTION BETWEEN A GOOD OR BAD DEED! PEOPLE WOULD HAVE THEIR OWN STANDARDS OF DECIDING WHICH ONE IS TO BE CALLED A GOOD AND WHICH ONE TO BE LABELED AS A BAD DEED!

Yes, but your proposal was that there would be no method of determine what would be 'right' or 'wrong'. You get held up far more on semantics than Skye does. At any rate, we already pragmatically have our own standards of right and wrong. My beliefs on morality, and standards on morality very obviously completely differ from yours. Both of our standards of morality also further, differ from that of your average Hindu.

Ahan! Again wrong quoting! I measure good and bad deeds by their nature, judges it through the norms given to us by Allah in Holy Quran.

I didn't quote you. I made an observation based on your complaints about morality in absence of reward or punishment for good and bad deeds respectively. You suggest that morality can only have objective merit, or indeed any merit at all if heaven and hell exist.

But tell me brother, , how do you judge which deed falls in what category? I reckon, through SOCIETY norms most probably?

By how it impacts on the lives of the individual - not through societal norms. I am not a cultural relativist.

Hmmm? So there is the whole problem! Your society may regard something as good or neutral whereas another society may regard that same thing as absurd, hideous and blasphemous! So which society is right then? Where does the consensus go now?

I am not a cultural relativist. These questions are strawmen.

And I tried to give you an example in this regard which you so clearly paid no attention to and that is of Mexico where people legalized homosexuality!

I did pay attention to it. I directly responded to your question about it by stating that I have and see no ethical problem with people being homosexuality.

Now in that society, this crime is going to be considered no more a crime whereas if seeing it from another society’s perspective, it is one of the most hideous in the list. They consider it unnatural and they have their solid reasons with them that if even half of the population turned gay or lesbians, the society would soon see an epidemic of diseases, incurable ones, which were never heard of before. The society would see a drastic decrease in population growth, and God knows what else! So which society is gaining ground here?

[citation needed]

Homosexuality is not contagious and even the most liberal of statistics suggest that homosexuality is only existent in at most 10% of the population. In case you were concerned further, homosexuals can and do reproduce and/or adopt children.

In this way, different societies will have their different norms but who will decide which thing is right and what is wrong? So the answer is that only God can.

You are inventing an explanation. If I was to wonder, rather cluelessly and presumptuously as you appear to do about who (or what) 'decides' what is right and what is wrong I have no reason to specifically assume that anyone does. You are forgetting perhaps the rather more likely and naturalistic answer that, it seems no-one 'objectively' decides what is right and what is wrong. You cannot invent an entity for which there is no empirical evidence for to explain an unknown.

Gives me great grief of how much you have narrowed down and belittled this beautiful aspect of life! Yukh! This is just one aspect, one initiative which encourages people to do good deeds and keeps a check on those who might turn into black sheep of the community if not been warned already!

It is the one aspect, and one initiative as you say that you have said that if it did not exist, then there would or could be no meaning to morality. I quote (in order to prevent you from backtracking): "If there wouldn’t have been any test followed by strict reckoning at the end, then why should at all there needed to be standards of good and bad deeds?"

Some people may do it for the love of Allah but my argument still holds, and is strongly based that if there would not have been a reckoning in the life hereafter, people would have done whatever they liked! And I think you’ve failed miserably to prove me wrong here!

I haven't needed to. Some of the most peaceful and prosperous countries on the entire planet (Click here) happen to contain millions of people that do not believe in hell. They do not do what they like. They have civil law, a criminal justice system and a progressive economy.

BTW in Islam, there is no self-interest actually but I can very well understand that you calling others as being self-interested provide nothing but a reflection of your own mind.

You must be joking. On almost every thread I have come across on here, there are members frequently talking about how they are doing good deads to increase their chances of gaining entry into heaven. That is directly motivated by self-interest.

In fact, by your own admission this life is a "test" where the specific objective is to gain entry into this heaven. How you think that does not motivate self-interest eludes me.

Now if I’ll say “something” here, you obviously not going to like it so keeping it civil, I move forward… (Bwahahaaha!)

You type like an older poster I remember from another forum with random emoticon usage and arbitrary font size (usually designed to mock, scorn and/or boast). At any rate, say what you like. It takes a lot to upset me.

In fact, you have the same avatar as he did. Are you Raziel?

Now let me tell you one more thing. Our judgment of right and wrong is also provided to us by Allah. It is the quality which He has bestowed us to distinguish between good and bad. So everything is actually already happening by the “will” of Allah and so your acceptance or rejection of Him won’t make any difference!

Well, how lovely of you to tell me. This is of course, completely without evidence and nothing but a profession of belief. I have no reason to accept it.

So what can I do brother, I don’t even care whether you are convinced or not! (Urdu sentence defines it better, “Meine thaika tou nai lay rakha apko convince karnay ka!" Hee-hee!) Never mind, I’m doing what I’m required to i.e. only giving you the message of Allah. Now giving you guidance is in the hands of Al-Mighty only and not for me to worry about!

This is some strange system of morality you have got here. You have, by your own admission just given me a message which according to you I was completely ignorant of prior to it and now since gaining this message I could be condemned for not accepting it.

I'd like to pay particular attention to the part where you said: "Never mind, I’m doing what I’m required to i.e. only giving you the message of Allah.". It is, despite your original protests more admission of an obedience to authority mentality.

My disbelief in an afterlife demonstrates my point. I don't accept Islam as true. I don't accept that there is a test going on, and therefore there are people subject to this test that are unaware of its relevance or even existence. Which was my original point (that you claim to have nulled).

Saying it as a matter of fact, you too have totally failed in convincing me of your views that no “reckoning” would be done in the hereafter. You’ve also failed to explain that how do you defend this idea of robbers and rapists, who saved themselves from the worldly punishment, be punished for their crimes? As according to you there will be no reckoning so does that mean that these evil people will not be punished ever?

This doesn't make any sense. You claim that I have failed to convince you that there is no reckoning in the hereafter for the wretched in life, but then you go on to complain about the fact that I believe there is no reckoning in the afterlife. Since I've already answered this, I will simply cut and paste my original response (perhaps with some slight alteration and expansion to assist you):

Yes. There is no credible evidence of life existing after death. All evidence indicates that our existence is entirely dependent on our bodies. Whilst this may come across to you as somewhat nihilistic, it is an observed reality. Your confusion over this issue is a projection of your steadfast perspective that all morals have a foundation in reality. You then project this perspective onto my world view and then question how it is consistent.

At any rate, you cannot derive an is from an ought (the converse of the naturalistic fallacy, eh). Just because it might be nicer if we could rely on reality vesting out some retribution on the historical dictators and unrepentant mass-murderers does not mean that it does. Know that also, just because that nature is apathetic to the fate of the contemptible does not mean that we ought to. Our efforts at civilisation and our protection of it in the face of chaos can only be produced in life and we ought to put more value into that.

Now this sentence busts your argument so completely!

These verbal proclamations of victory are amusing. What argument of mine have you "bust"? I'm not sure you even know what I'm contending here. It was you who made the accusation and argument that there is an issue with my moral world view. It was you who complained that under my world view, there is no objective judgment in some afterlife. It was not my argument, it was and remains yours. My response is to agree that yes, there is no punishment in the afterlife because there is no evidence that an afterlife even exists. These are not moral claims. I do not contend that it is 'good' that the likes of Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin and others like them are not having judgment cast upon them. I contend it is simply a part of reality we ought to accept. I contend that it is an observed fact that when our bodies die, our conscience departs with it. I contend that that there is simply no credible evidence for any afterlife, much less an afterlife where people are judged and seperated into two categories. You cannot derive an ought from an is.

Whaaat! I’m not going to waste my poor mind on this whole word puzzle or whatever! I already have physics and chemistry to do! What I can do is to answer to this part later on after my exam is over.

Okay.

Not as cheap as the mocking and scoffing statements you pass! …it can’t beat you in that! Bwahahaaha!

What mocking and scoffing statements? I'm not the one who has declared victory over and over again. You have, since our 'discussion' been repeatedly condescending, patronising and pompous.

Now this marks the end of our discussion. I won’t be answering your posts as long as my papers are there but I look forward to more discussions in future. inshAllah!

Okay.

 

[CosmicPathos]

How can science have a problem with God? Not all atheists are scientists. Many professors of something as useless and obscure as History etc are atheists. They do not know the basics of science, even if they claim they do, they lack the mental faculties to actually make progress in scientific knowledge through their "brains." Yet they are atheists. Science has no say over God's existence. Just like how science has no say over morality. Or over love. Or over motivation. Or over time management. Or over all other non-tangible things.

 

[Lynx]

Maybe to wrap up the discussion started by the OP I will say that Science doesn't have a problem with God. If there was scientific evidence supporting God as there is evidence supporting the existence of Atoms or molecules or even Black Holes then that would be totally fine. Science is much more than just the 5 senses directly observing an alleged phenomenon and so the OP is attacking a position that is probably not held by anyone and thus the point of the OP is moot. Finally, some theists do claim that Science cannot detect God simply because God is supernatural and Science is methodological naturalism by definition; therefore, the study of God would fall into the realm of metaphysics.

 

[CosmicPathos]

^^ well we might have created different methods for studyign natural phenomenon, all the observations are analyzed by humans by one the 5 senses, mostly auditory and optic senses. Therefore, to be observable and to be understandable, observational data MUST be available in a form which is detectable by one of those 5 senses.

 

[Masuma]

@ Skuvau:

Just.Couldn’t.Resist!

I'm not the one who has declared victory over and over again. You have, since our 'discussion' been repeatedly condescending, patronising and pompous.

I see! You’ve said enough crap about me in my absence!:raging:
And I wasn’t declaring victory over and over again!!! Maybe you thought it so. But believe me, all I was doing is to bring focus around those parts. And honestly, I still think that your explanations and claims don’t hold. I just don’t SEE how your claims proved mine wrong…especially those where you didn’t give any credible explanation of how the killers would receive punishment if they saved themselves from the punishment in this world.

These verbal proclamations of victory are amusing.

That’s so low! :grumbling
I was just trying to draw your attention to the point! I thought that it would instigate you and you’ll pay particular attention to it and then you’ll try your best to bring a counter argument and………okay, okay, I do admit it was a flop idea but just look what foul and insulting color you gave to it!

I do not contend that it is 'good' that the likes of Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin and others like them are not having judgment cast upon them. I contend it is simply a part of reality we ought to accept.

At least it’s making you think about it :statisfie …though your explanation is just one of a big sadistic one and is very unjust whereas the world is ruled by One who is the most Just, Strict in taking account!

My disbelief in an afterlife demonstrates my point. I don't accept Islam as true. I don't accept that there is a test going on, and therefore there are people subject to this test that are unaware of its relevance or even existence. Which was my original point (that you claim to have nulled).

And again brother, you can reject as much as you want that there is a “test” and its reckoning in the hereafter but still it won’t change a thing! The test is there and people are aware of it but the only thing is that they refuse to accept it!

And

Yes. There is no credible evidence of life existing after death. All evidence indicates that our existence is entirely dependent on our bodies. Whilst this may come across to you as somewhat nihilistic, it is an observed reality. Your confusion over this issue is a projection of your steadfast perspective that all morals have a foundation in reality. You then project this perspective onto my world view and then question how it is consistent.

Well of course it takes “Faith” to realize the truth that “THERE IS AN AFTERLIFE”. Our existence is not for just the few years of this life but we’ll be judged for our deeds and then will have a life for eternity! I’m trying to make you understand this but you keep on rejecting. So I leave it on Allah to decide…just trying my best to fulfill my duty which my Raab enjoined on me.

(Its just that when the day of Resurrection comes and you see Him in His utmost Glory and then your eyes get open and you realize that yes! It was true! I was told of this before! Then on that day, you bear witness to Allah that you were told of this before! The message did reach to you!)

But for now, Allah is enough for a Witness!!!

I know how hard it can be for people to accept truth. That’s why Allah has told us to keep striving and calling people to His way. I’ll keep trying to give you people the message of Allah no matter how much you dislike it!

Allah says in Quran:

“Invite all to the way of your Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them and reason with them in ways that are best and most gracious”.
(Chapter 16, Verse 125)

So I’ll just do whatever He says.

You type like an older poster I remember from another forum…In fact, you have the same avatar as he did. Are you Raziel?

Of course not! But good to know I’ve a twin brother. LOL!

Now I leave you with a prayer that may Allah open your heart! May He show you the truth and the right way! Ameen!

No matter how much you deny His existence, He is unaffected by it. You only do harm to your own souls. Allah is worthy of all praise, the Creator of heavens and earth; Who encompasses all things! He is the Most Merciful, the Most Gracious!

Allahu Akbar!

 

[Missinglinks]

^^ well we might have created different methods for studyign natural phenomenon, all the observations are analyzed by humans by one the 5 senses, mostly auditory and optic senses. Therefore, to be observable and to be understandable, observational data MUST be available in a form which is detectable by one of those 5 senses.

This is exactly the problem with you guys, you use the 5 senses; sight, hearing, touch, smell and taste.. and forget to use your sixth sense THE BRAINS...

observational data MUST be available in a form which is detectable by one of those 5 senses.

IR light is not seen by any of the senses rather you need aparature. The light of the stars are detectable by one of our 5 senses, yet they might be not existing for a long time ago, so you're detecting with your 5 senses something wich doesn't exist, since the light has to travel so far away!!!! Moreover, most of the things in universe wich we haven't discovered (yet) do exist... There are even some things wich we know they are and detect, but we don't know how it is possible, so it is detectable but not understandable.. think fo instance the assumption of black materie in the universe.. some stars are rotating so fast among their centre, that they just have to shoot out of their orbit, yet they don't.. so this is still a mysterie to scientists, and most things... like Einstein said: We are in a huge library, with many books, and each time we learn to read(decode) a little bit of that enormous library...(or something siilar to this).. so your whole post is illogical and not according to reality

 

[Missinglinks]

so you're detecting with your 5 senses something wich doesn't exist
with this I mean the star... you're thinking its there yet it isn't...

reminds me of a story by the way:

ath-Thahabee mentions from al-Muzanee that he said: “I knew that if anyone could rid me of a troubling concern about an issue of tawheed, it would be ash-Shaafi’ee. So I went to him while he was in a mosque in Egypt. When I kneeled in front of him, I said, ‘I am troubled about a certain issue of tawheed. I know that no one knows as much as you, so what do you say about this?’ ”

He became angry and said, ‘Do you know where you are?’
I said, ‘Yes.’
He said, ‘This is the place where Allaah drowned Pharoah. Has it reached you that the Messenger of Allaah was ordered to ask about that?’
I said, ‘No.’
He said, ‘Have the Companions spoken about it?’
I said, ‘No.’
He said, ‘Do you know how many stars are in the sky?’
I said, ‘No.’
He said, ‘So you don’t even know about one planet – its type or the time and place of its appearance and disappearance?’
I said, ‘No.’

He said, “So there is something from the creation that you see with your own eyes that you do not even know anything about, yet you speak about the Knowledge of the Creator?’
Then he asked me a question about ablution, and I erred in my response.
So he explained it from four different angles (and asked me about them), and I was not correct in any of my responses.

So he said, ‘So you leave alone the knowledge of something which you are in need of five times a day, and instead you burden yourself with the knowledge of the Creator? When this (kind of thing) comes to your mind, then remember the statement of Allaah the Exalted,
“And your God is One God; there is no true god besides Him. He is the Most Merciful, the Bestower of Mercy. Verily in the creation of the heavens and the earth…” [Surah Al-Baqarah 2:163-164]

So use the creation as a proof for (the Greatness of) the Creator, and do not burden yourself with what is beyond your understanding.”
[Siyar A’laamin-Nubalaa‘ (10/31)]

 

[CosmicPathos]

^^ lol man, you are attacking me while I am trying to support you guys here.

Regarding IR, yes we cannot see IR. But we can see IR spectrum by decoding it into visible spectrum or by decoding it into a graphical form by the help of a spectrophotometer! The light gathered from stars is usually IR emission or absorption spectra. We can observe which wavelengths were absorbed or emitted because they are transformed into a format which can be sensed by 5 senses.

 

[Missinglinks]

^^ lol man, you are attacking me while I am trying to support you guys here.

yeah sorry for that, mistake of mine... may Allah forgive me.. I thought mad scientist!

 

[Skavau]

I see! You’ve said enough crap about me in my absence!

If by "in your absence" you mean directly to you, on a thread that you are posting on sure. I wouldn't call it "crap" however. It is an observation of your personality.

And I wasn’t declaring victory over and over again!!! Maybe you thought it so. But believe me, all I was doing is to bring focus around those parts.

If declaring quite proudly over and over again that your arguments are sublime, and mine do not prove anything with emoticons to follow does not constitute some form of pomposit - what does?

And honestly, I still think that your explanations and claims don’t hold. I just don’t SEE how your claims proved mine wrong…

I haven't been attempting to disprove any claims that you have made, more I have been specifically defending my perspective. I did initially make 3 points as to why the claim that life is a test for the afterlife is incoherent and unfair but we are now so far beyond those points now that (due to you going off-topic and asking me silly questions) that I am in the position where I am responding to your claims about my beliefs.

especially those where you didn’t give any credible explanation of how the killers would receive punishment if they saved themselves from the punishment in this world.

They wouldn't. I've already answered this. It is not, and has never been my claim that punishment exists or can exist in some supernatural form after life. You are not even bothering to read what I say.

At least it’s making you think about it …though your explanation is just one of a big sadistic one and is very unjust whereas the world is ruled by One who is the most Just, Strict in taking account!

I have been through this ridiculous argument about justice in the 'afterlife' in a materialistic world view before with someone else on another forum. I am no more thinking about it anymore now than I was then. At any rate, sadistic? Do you even know what sadistic means? Sadism means someone who gains enjoyment at the suffering of others. When have I said that I enjoy the suffering of others?

And yes, nature is unjust.

And again brother, you can reject as much as you want that there is a “test” and its reckoning in the hereafter but still it won’t change a thing! The test is there and people are aware of it but the only thing is that they refuse to accept it!

I not only reject it - I don't believe in it.

Well of course it takes “Faith” to realize the truth that “THERE IS AN AFTERLIFE”. Our existence is not for just the few years of this life but we’ll be judged for our deeds and then will have a life for eternity! I’m trying to make you understand this but you keep on rejecting. So I leave it on Allah to decide…just trying my best to fulfill my duty which my Raab enjoined on me.

If by "trying to make me understand this" you are repeating your claims ad infinitum to me and hoping they will stick, then yes. You are. However perhaps you should consider working on empirical evidence or reasoned argument to fill your point rather than mere bravado.

As for the rest here, I'm not interested in being preached out. It is complete white noise to me.

 

[Lynx]

^^ well we might have created different methods for studyign natural phenomenon, all the observations are analyzed by humans by one the 5 senses, mostly auditory and optic senses. Therefore, to be observable and to be understandable, observational data MUST be available in a form which is detectable by one of those 5 senses.

yeh i totally agree. i just meant we don;t use the 5 senses in the narrow way the OP makes it out to be in order to do science.

 

[Masuma]

If declaring quite proudly over and over again that your arguments are sublime, and mine do not prove anything with emoticons to follow does not constitute some form of pomposit - what does?

I’ve already answered to that before!

Do you even know what sadistic means? Sadism means someone who gains enjoyment at the suffering of others. When have I said that I enjoy the suffering of others?

Yeah of course! You are right here. I thought that the word has to do something with “sad” or “hopelessness” or... never mind!

I not only reject it - I don't believe in it.

Okay.

So this tells me about your personality as Allah has mentioned a fact in Holy Quran about people like you.



“As to those who reject Faith, it is same to them whether you warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe.
Allah has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).”

(Chapter 2, Verses 6-7)



I still pray that may Allah not make you one of these! Ameen!

All praise is to ALLAH!