Sikhism

[Mohsin]

I came across these verses, if anyone could shed light please!

The Koran commands Muslims not to befriend Jews or Christists "0 ye who believe (Muslims) take not the Jews or the Christists for your friends and protectors. They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he among you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them" (Surat AI-Maidah 5:51).

"Kill the Mushrikun (polytheists, Christists and non-Muslims), wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-salat (public prayer with Muslims) and give Zakat (Islamic alms), then leave their way free. Allah is oft-forgiving, most merciful' (Surat At-Taubah 9;5).

http://www.load-islam.com/C/rebuttals/Misquoted/#19

http://www.load-islam.com/C/rebuttals/Misquoted/#9

 

[Mohsin]

<<No offence, but this debate is just pointless and a waste of time. I suggest you EDUCATE yourselves about islam before you try to debate it. some of your points are too nonsensical. don't believe things that people tell you, go to the direct source. there were many things in the last few posts that were just blatantly (if thats a word) WRONG.
>>>

same way for you, bro.

mere quoting from Koran cannot prove other texts and religions as false.


regarding educating ourselves on ISLAM, well i am trying to do so, independent study of Koran.


could you point out the irrrelevant, nonsensical points????


but i am not outta here

i am gonna be here and answer questions on sikhism and ask questions on islam and compare them

peace

truthseeker, you don't understand.

You guys claim to accept Prophet Muhammed PBUH, am i right? You also accept Qur'an as a divine revelation, am i right? We are saying if you believe Prophet Muhammed PBUH how can you believe Guru Nanek who preached something completely different???
All the Porphets beforer Muhammed PBUH all had different laws, but their basic beliefs were all the same, that this life is a test, and there will be heaven/hell. So why did God lie to Prophet Muhammed PBUh by telling him this??

 

[Mohsin]

They were brought back into the correct path, at that time. Yes, Sikhs have faultered but we could argue so have the muslims, christians, jews etc etc. But that has no reflection on the teachings of the prophets does it? It's solely on us!

As for God chaining his mind, ohi janae. But he felt it necessary to send Guru Nanak. Otherwise he wouldn't have sent him would he!

Yopu don't understadn, i wrote the above post in reply to what someone said that Guru nanek came to bring people back to the true path as they had gone astray. i said don't judge a religion on what some people do. just because some muslims have become deviant, it doesn't mean all have. If people were to follow their scriptures there would be no deviance from the true path. So there is no need for another Guru/messenger to come. basically it was being argued that guru nanek came to bring people to the true path. Well if that is why he came why did he not fulfill his mission. There are still ill-practising muslims, and ill-practising sikhs. The solution again is the same as it was before God is supposed to have sent nanek, Go back to your scriptures and follow what god has said. Thus i ask if this is the same as before, ie follow your scripture, then there was no need ever for nanek to come as all the deviant muslims had to do was follow their scripture

As for God chaining his mind, ohi janae. But he felt it necessary to send Guru Nanak. Otherwise he wouldn't have sent him would he

Sorry, that doesn't cut it. God can't change his mind. What is 4cm last year is still 4cm today. if he had said previously Muhammed PBUH is the last Prophet/Teacher/Guide/Light to creation, then that is what he has said and meant, and thus whoever comes after him can't be a guru or a prophet or a teacher or whatever you wnat to call them

Otherwise he wouldn't have sent him would he

Precisely my point, god didn't, as he can't change his mind

 

[Mohsin]

Not by the ignorant ones obviously!

He never claimed to be anything other than a servant of God!

What do you mean by this. We are all servants of God. If he claims to be a servant then yes we accept him. if he claims God has spoken to him, or has given him a status above that of a normal human, ie that of Prophethood or of being a Guru, then all muslims unanimously reject him as being a liar, as it goes against our teachings. Simple as that. Sorry if that has come out offensive but that is what we believe. Its the same as Christians who believe Muhammed PBUH to be a liar, and Jews who believe jesus PBUH to be a liar, its what we have to accept

 

[Mohsin]

If the koran claims that adam and moses etc are prophets, why do you not revert back to being Jews/christians as they were the first and your ancestors were jews/christians! Why even bother with Islam?

because if you look at what they said in the Torah/Gospel, they never claimed to be Jews/ Christians

Jews come from the tribe of Judah, and ironically Moses is not from the tribe of judah, technically spekaing he's not a Jew, but a levite. But anyway thats another discussion. Moses never claimed to be a jew, never claimed to be a starter of judaism or anything. he was the same as his forfather Abraham, one who submitted his will to god, ie a Muslim. Someobody who submitts their way to god is a muslim. You can claim sikhs to be submitting their will to god, but we say no you are committing false worship, and god has not ordained for you the3 things you do in your religion, and so you are not submitting your will to God. Again this is our beliefs, i didn't meant to insult you or your religion

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

Sorry, that doesn't cut it. God can't change his mind. What is 4cm last year is still 4cm today. if he had said previously Muhammed PBUH is the last Prophet/Teacher/Guide/Light to creation, then that is what he has said and meant, and thus whoever comes after him can't be a guru or a prophet or a teacher or whatever you wnat to call them



Precisely my point, god didn't, as he can't change his mind

He can't? And why not? And Sikhism is living proof that he did! Accept it or not, it's the truth brother!

Our religion, which was founded on principles of interfaith, is Sikhism, whose founders have since 1469 defined and preached the rule of interfaith dialogue and interfaith respect. A Sikh by definition must respect and accept all other world religions.

This is what the SGGS says regarding the different spiritual routes:

“Without the Lord’s Name, life is worthless.

Through doubt, the people are being destroyed.
One who recognizes that all spiritual paths lead to the One shall be emancipated.
One who speaks lies shall fall into hell and burn.
In the entire world, the most blessed and sanctified are those who remain absorbed in Truth.
One who eliminates selfishness and conceit is redeemed in the Court of the Lord. ((9))"

SGGS page 142

 

[Mohsin]

No brother you don't understand my point. I am saying why did God change his mind and go back on his word saying there will be no other prophet to come. You said you don't know why he changed his mind, but you said you felt it necessary to send guru nanek otherwise he wouldn't have. So all i am saying is God had known from the start what would have happened, so if he had said there will be no need to send another Prophet and Muhammed PBUH is the last, then he would have known it was not necessary to send another Prophet PBUH. So thus i don't believe he sent nanek. the fact that so many sikhs exist is besides the point. How many followers of nation Of islam exist, does that make it a true religion? of course not

As for God chaining his mind, ohi janae. But he felt it necessary to send Guru Nanak. Otherwise he wouldn't have sent him would he!

Number 1 God cabn't change his mind
Number 2 there was no need to send nank, as if he was sent to bring people back to the true path, then he failed, as un-muslims continued in their same ways, and many sikhs have also deviated

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

We're going around in circles dude!!

 

[Mohsin]

We're going around in circles dude!!

Lol i know what you're saying, but i feel you haven't answered my questions.

It says in your scriptures the Qur'an isn't false. But yet it contradicts your beliefs time and time again, so what is it, is it false or not.

If god has said Muahammed is the last prophet then why did he send another. in islam god is perfect he can't change his mind. in sikhism obviousluy he can and does not know the future (please correct me if i am wrong). Ask yourself, which ideology seems more correct, a perfect God who knows the future and can't err and contradict and change his mind, or a God who changes his mind because he realsies he needs to send another prophet (nanak)as the previous ones (Muhammed PBUH) followers have gone astray, but yet this again failas as many sikhs also do not follow their own scriptures and do sins

To me islam answers this perfectly, but Sikhism can't

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

Lol i know what you're saying, but i feel you haven't answered my questions.

It says in your scriptures the Qur'an isn't false. But yet it contradicts your beliefs time and time again, so what is it, is it false or not.

If god has said Muahammed is the last prophet then why did he send another. in islam god is perfect he can't change his mind. in sikhism obviousluy he can and does not know the future (please correct me if i am wrong). Ask yourself, which ideology seems more correct, a perfect God who knows the future and can't err and contradict and change his mind, or a God who changes his mind because he realsies he needs to send another prophet (nanak)as the previous ones (Muhammed PBUH) followers have gone astray, but yet this again failas as many sikhs also do not follow their own scriptures and do sins

To me islam answers this perfectly, but Sikhism can't

As i've said before, Sikhs are told to respect all the other scriptures but we believe in none of them! We have the Guru Granth Ji, this is the only true word of God to us! Just as the koran is to you!!

The Sikh Gurus were in direct communion with God and narrated only God’s Word. Guru Nanak Dev Ji writes, “When I speak, I speak as You make me speak” (Guru Granth Sahib, 565).

Furthermore, the fourth Guru, Guru Ram Das Ji writes, “O God, O Creator, Lord and Master of the devotee Nanak, as You wish, so do I speak” (Guru Granth Sahib, 800).

In addition, “O Sikhs of Guru, know that the Word of the True Guru is true, absolutely true. The Creator Lord Himself causes the Guru to chant it” (Guru Granth Sahib, 308).

Everything Sikh Gurus said was instructed to them by God. Guru Arjun Dev Ji (the fifth Guru) writes, “What can I say? I don't know what to say. Whatever pleases God, so do I speak” (Guru Granth Sahib, 1202).

In addition, “The Word of the Guru has been emanated from God. It eradicates all anxiety” (Guru Granth Sahib, 627).

Before the coming of the Gurus, India was filled with discrimination due to a very strong belief in the caste system. Most people believed in making pilgrimages, black magic and other such superstitions. Essentially people had forgotten God. God sent the Sikh Gurus in this world in order to enlighten people and showed them the path to salvation and eternal bliss.

The tenth Guru, Guru Gobind Singh Ji writes, “I did not want to come in this world. My mind was immersed in God. Then somehow God explained me His purpose and sent me to this world with His directive. Then God said, ‘I establish thee as my son, You are to create a religion. Go and create a religion and stop people from doing unrighteousness and evil actions.’ I stood up, with my palms joined and bowing my head to God and said, ‘I will only be able to create a religion when You help me.’ This is the reason God send me in this world and I was born in this world. I speak as God told me. I have no enmity with anyone. Those who call me God, will fall into the pit of hell. Consider me as a humble servant of God and have no doubt about it. I am a servant of the Supreme Being and have come to witness His worldly play. I have come in this world for this purpose. God sent me for the purpose of religion. Wherever you will spread this religion, evil and wicked will be eliminated. I have taken birth for this purpose. Let the holy men understand this well. I have come to spread the divine religion, protection of the devotees of God and the annihilation (elimination) of all evils.” (Guru Gobind Singh Ji, Vachitar Natak).

Hence Guru Gobind Singh Ji completed the purpose for which he and the nine Gurus before Him were sent: by creating the Sikh religion. God’s purpose of enlightening people was started by sending Guru Nanak Dev Ji in this world, carried on by sending the next eight Gurus and completed by sending Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Hence Sikhism is a religion created by God through the Sikh Gurus.

This is it in a nutshell! Doubt all you want, but it is the will of ALLAH!

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

Sikhism is a religion on its own.

It disapproves neither of the religions, hinduism, islam, christianity........ it disapproves false rituals and promotes harmonious, simple living while remembering One God.

I'm hoping my last post will be of much benefit to him!

 

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

Thank you AvarAllahNoor for the link, it was interesting .

who keeps deleting my posts?????

moderators????
is this fair ????

I don't think any of your recent posts have been deleted; the only ones which have were those in response to disrespectful posts that were also deleted.

Peace.

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

hi

just wanted to add to post of AAN

the quote he provided from vachitar Natak is from the autobiographical text by Guru Gobind singh.

that is not a part of SGGS

regards,

Yeh i know - where it's from the Bani i've made refrence to it!

You've got mail btw!

 

[amardeep]

mohsin.

u wrote :

The Prophet said: 'Every Prophet used to be sent to his people alone but I have been sent to all mankind'. (Sahîh Bukhârî)

so i guess bukhari is sahih for you, otherwise you would not have quoted him.
lets use bukhari then, and see wheter if Muhammad fits to being a "universal" and last prophet..


look at this hadith.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/061.sbt.html#006.061.

it says that Muhammad forgot a verse from the Quran. how can a universel and the seal of prophets forget a verse from the Quran????
Guru Gobind Singh Maharaj, The final Guru, remembered and dictated the entire Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee from his mind.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/003.smt.html#003.0671

How can a prophet of God go naked in public? isent he suppose to be a holy person and have chastity.
lets not forget:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/062.sbt.html#007.062.006

how he slept with all of his wives.. isent a Prophet of God supposed to be able to control his earthly desires??

here are two hadith saying he forgot his prayers.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/022.sbt.html#002.022.321

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/008.sbt.html#001.008.394


seal of prophets ?? i think not...

im not syaing this to offend Muhammad..im just saying that, he could not possibly have been the last messenger of God, when he did all these things...

there will always be messengers..maybe not rasools, and nabis...but messengers, sure htere willl

 

[amardeep]

mohsin u wrote

Number 1 God cabn't change his mind
Number 2 there was no need to send nank, as if he was sent to bring people back to the true path, then he failed, as un-muslims continued in their same ways, and many sikhs have also deviated

so God cant change his mind? i see..what about when the Quran says that verses are being abrogated??
like this one:

002.106
YUSUFALI: None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?

and:

016.101

PICKTHAL: And when We put a revelation in place of (another) revelation, - and Allah knoweth best what He revealeth - they say: Lo! thou art but inventing. Most of them know not.



so you say God cant change his mind? how come the first punishment for Zina was to sent a woman to her house untill she dies, which was later abrogated and the punishment was hereafter whippings..

are u still saying God cant change his mind according to Islam??

how come the Gospels talk about Eye for An Eye, and the Quran clearly backs this up, but then says that it is beter not to take revenge??

i have said again and again brother, that Guru Nanak was NOT a nabi or a rasool. he was a Guru...a Man to put righteusness into this world. the Gurus never tried to convert anyone..instead, they tried to make people righteus, and follow their own religions...The Guru Granth Sahab even tells muslim to do their 5 prayers...

 

[amardeep]

God has changed his mind according to the Quran many times. Allah sent the lav of Musa down, but why did'n Muhammad follow these laws?.. they were changed in the days of Muhammad..

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

so God cant change his mind? i see..what about when the Quran says that verses are being abrogated??

Abrogation is not changing one's mind - this baseless claim has been refuted here:
http://www.load-islam.com/C/rebuttals/Abrogation_and_the_Unalterable_Word_of_God/

The Professor told his class at the beginning of the course, "I've written down what we will do during this course. I've planned it carefully, and written down everything we will do, word for word. No one can change my words." Then, during the second week when the Professor changes the ruling from 30 minutes of homework to 1 hour, a student complains and says, "But sir, you've changed your words!" The Professor responds by saying, "No, I haven't changed my words, I had planned this right from the beginning." Evidently, he is referring to his plan as his words.​

Allah sent the lav of Musa down, but why did'n Muhammad follow these laws?.. they were changed in the days of Muhammad..

Show me where Allah swt said that the laws of Musa were also for Muhammad saws and then changed His mind? He never did. The laws of Musa as were intended for his nation and the laws of Muhammad saws were intended for his nation. God intended from the very beginning that Musa as would have a specific set of laws suitable for his people and that Muhammad saws would have a specific set of laws intended for his people. The beliefs, creed and fundamentals of all the prophets is the same.

look at this hadith.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/061.sbt.html#006.061.

it says that Muhammad forgot a verse from the Quran. how can a universel and the seal of prophets forget a verse from the Quran????

He didn't 'forget' anything in the sense that he was unable remember it or failed to act upon it. The hadith says he heard a man reciting these verses and was thus reminded of verses he had not contemplated upon recently.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/003.smt.html#003.0671

How can a prophet of God go naked in public? isent he suppose to be a holy person and have chastity.

First, this was before he became a Prophet, before there was legislation on clothing requirements. Secondly, as is obvious from the text of the narration itself, this happened unintentionally - he fell unconcious! In the hadith itself it says that this was the only time this ever occured (when he lost conciousness) despite the fact that in the jahiliyyah times, arabs used to even perform circumambulation around the Ka'bah naked. This is actually in support of his prophethood because it states that despite local customs the Prophet felt it wrong inside him to be seen undressed and as such he was never seen that way in his entire life even before prophet, except the one instance when he lost conciousness.

lets not forget:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/062.sbt.html#007.062.006

how he slept with all of his wives.. isent a Prophet of God supposed to be able to control his earthly desires??

What has that to do with controlling one's earthly desires? Does that mean if someone marries they are unable to control their earthly desires? Controlling one's desires means to control them from sin.

here are two hadith saying he forgot his prayers.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/022.sbt.html#002.022.321

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/008.sbt.html#001.008.394

He didn't forget his prayers, he missed a rak'ah, and Allah swt caused him to do that so that the ummah would see the correct manner of correcting one's prayer in the case of missing rakaat. None of this contradicts prophethood in the least.

Regards

 

[amardeep]

Show me where Allah swt said that the laws of Musa were also for Muhammad saws and then changed His mind? He never did. The laws of Musa as were intended for his nation and the laws of Muhammad saws were intended for his nation. God intended from the very beginning that Musa as would have a specific set of laws suitable for his people and that Muhammad saws would have a specific set of laws intended for his people. The beliefs, creed and fundamentals of all the prophets is the same.

thats good. then Islam was ment for the arabs, while Guru Nanak's message which is universal, as he travelled the world, is for the human nation(all of mankind)..

there is no contradiction in Guru Nanak being a "prophet" then if i use your logic, saying Allah had intended it from the very beginning, that Guru Nanak would come to this earth as a messenger..

Guru Nanak is a messenger of God..there is no doubt. in Islam God can change his word from time to time..why not also change his word on"last prophet" ????+

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

thats good. then Islam was ment for the arabs

I'm afraid not. I said the laws of Muhammad pbuh were intended for his people - 'his people' includes everyone after his time, not those before his time. The laws of Prophet Muhammad pbuh were not intended for the people who lived with Moses, Lot, Jesus, etc. They are intended for everyone in the time of Prophet Muhammad pbuh and after him; the previous Prophet's were sent only to a specific nation, but Prophet Muhammad saws has been sent to all mankind during his time or after him.

Secondly, we're not discussing Islam because Islam is the religion of all creation; we're discussing the different Shari'ahs [legislations] of the different Prophets.

God can change his word from time to time..why not also change his word on"last prophet" ????+

It should be obvious that this is two different concepts. Take the professor example again.
If the professor says "After today, I will never give you anymore homework", then the next day if he assigns homework the students will call him a liar.
That is very different from the example I gave where the Professor initially assigns 30 mins of homework and later changes it to 1 hour of homework, later on in the course. The difference being that in the first example, the professor is contradicting his earlier statement by assigning homework after having said he never would, while in the second example he is not contradicting himself at all because he never said that the students would only have 30 mins of homework throughout the entire course.

Regards

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

thats good. then Islam was ment for the arabs, while Guru Nanak's message which is universal, as he travelled the world, is for the human nation(all of mankind)..

there is no contradiction in Guru Nanak being a "prophet" then if i use your logic, saying Allah had intended it from the very beginning, that Guru Nanak would come to this earth as a messenger..

Guru Nanak is a messenger of God..there is no doubt. in Islam God can change his word from time to time..why not also change his word on "last prophet" ????+

Guru Ji's arrival was prophized (sp)


In the Hindu epic the RIG VEDA

(i) In Mandala 7, Ush 5, Mantra 5 and Chapter 6


"Bee chakram prithoi aishai ta khestraaeh Vishnu mansai das sayaan throvaah so asaya keeryo janaas oeroo khashatra so janama chakaar (8)"
meaning


"when in the world the sinful ways will be on the rise and noble behavior will vanish, as the disappearance of the moon when on its wane on the darkest night, there will appear Vishnu as a prominent Prophet from the Keshatra Clan and will manifest in consecutive form through 10 Prophets to bring back the ways of virtue to the ailing world."
(ii) In the same Vedas, in another part even in the name NANAK and the clan he belongs to is recorded thus


"Sri Nanak gureng vareng saklaath heythoo. Heitha samasth jagathaa va veithee kaetheng"
meaning


"For the preaching of religious ways and the earning of good karma, there will manifest Guru NANAK from the clan of the Veithees"
(iii) At another position in the same Vedas is entered under Mandala 1 Soothak 5 and in the 7th Mantra thus -


"Eeth eethei Vishnu reinn chakramei threihaa nathathei patham"
meaning


"The Prophet in the Kali Yuga will manifest three attributes. As an Avtar propounding Truth, as a Householder establishing family life and at the same time be a Raja Yogi"


2. The YUJAR VEDA

As in the RIG VEDA quoted above, in the YUJAR VEDA also the Prophet in the Kali Yuga will manifest three main characteristics thus -


"Vishnu bee chakrageih treithaa neikthei patham samudhseiaa paaeh serei swahaa"
meaning


"Vishnu will appear again, manifesting three main characteristics, Avtarhood, Householder family life and be a Rajah Yogi as well"
Although in the above two quotations the name of Nanak does not directly appear, reference to being a householder family man, would point to him because he was among the first few Avtars (prophets) who was married and begetting children.

Incidentally in Hindu mythology, VISHNU is the primordial Godhead Prophet, who incarnates on Earth taking many differing forms and the ensuing names thereto.



3. In the BHAVEKHATH PURANA

"Baavekhath" means "future foretelling". There are numerous places in this famous Hindu epic where the advant of Guru NANAK is directly alluded to. These instances are listed hereunder -

(i)

"Theraa bhaareng thereshtwah keli krethem maha krethyaa. Aeveng vaee tharam parchaariang bhavekhthee thaa kalau. Thatha vei loka rakheiaartheng maleishana naas heithwei paschmeitlheng subh theisay vath wensei chei Nanaka naam nach rekhiang brahem geaanaik manas bhavekhet kaloe skunth thatar verth kaleaah har (35)."
meaning


"In the Kali Yuga when goodness in the world is deteriorating there will appear a Prophet from the Beithi clan named NANAK who from birth will be endowed with extra-ordinary spiritual power. He will preach on the nobility of life and the eradication of the sinful ways"