Sikhism

Hey I am new to this thread and have read a couple of pages. From what I can see, your Sikh religion is trying to integrate the others. I am sorry to ask if it has bee answered before but bear with me please! Hmm, Judaism then Christianity then Islam have a clear path leading from one to the other. The Jews were once God's Chosen People, if all paths are right, why would God even have chosen people? Then they rejected Esa PBUH who came for them then who propheciesed Muhammad PBUH. I have read the Bible, the Quran and some of the Torah, much of this unitarian philosophy you have is not supported in ANY of the scriptures God has given us. Please enlighten me, this is interesting as I have many Sikh comrades in my College.
 
All I am saying is that many of your views are not supported by any of the previous prophets like Abraham and Moses and Jesus. Reincarnation, God creating himself, the fact that the Guru has not been foretold in any of the previous books.


I can gather that you accept prophet Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad ( peace upon all of them). If you accept this you have to acknowledge the fact that that Moses was predicted by those before him, Jesus was predicted by those before him, then Muhammad was predicted by those before him. I do not see any presence of the Guru or his ideas in any of the previous scriptures. Why would God just change his mind as say hey, Im going to send another person who was not in the scriptures i sent down to the people and add new things?

Also, you say that there are many paths to God. Why then did Allah take the Jewish people as his chosen people for a time until they broke their covenant?
 
read the Vedas (hindu texts).. they have predicted it...

however, just because neither christians nor jews no muslims predict it, that doesn't make our Guru's any 'less'.. Christians say that "Jesus" is the only way... they have not acknowledged any other faith.. Islam believes that Mohammad was the last prophet - this is self proclaimed..

and this whole 'myth' that Guru Nanak Dev Jee was a muslim or a hindu is all nonsense.. our beliefs contradict those of muslims and hindus alike...

also... the bible was 'man made'.. both the old testament and new testament contain contradictions as well as condone violence... also, I don't believe the Qura'an to be the word of God..

i'm not sure about moses being predicted before his coming, can you provide me with sources?

personally.... nothing of Jesus, Moses, or Mohammed can be 'verified' (in my opinion) since they never 'wrote' anything.
 
You say what these religions believe as if there is no distinction between what tis true or what is not. Of course when Christians abrogate God's word and say that Esa was god, we will not believe in it. Debates have shown that what the Christians claim is not supported in their Bible and people readily acknowledge the abrogations of scribes. You express disbelief at the prophets of God then deny what they did and render them down to "friends" of God. Stop me if I seem inflammatory because I am not a good debater :p. Anyways, I find it hard to follow your logic. You have not answered the lack of evidence for reincarnation, the Guru, God's previous Chosen People the Jews. Ah yes, the Jews, If in fact what you say is true, why would God have called the Jews his chosen people and then have assisted the Jews against pagans if there are many ways to God. Weren't the Pagans practicing THEIR own way? Your beliefs of accepting all religions is contrary to the workings of God as can be observed from his punishing of idolaters and disbelievers and such. God seeks to separate truth from falsehood but when you accept all these other religions you mish mash truth with falsehood.

Furthermore, how can you say that nothing of those prophets can be verified? Do you think those prophets came down, gave a talk, then left? I think you are just saying that they cant be verified because they contain ideas contrary to what your guru has told you. In my opinion, there is a clear path from Judaism, to Christianity to Islam. Arguments arise when people do not see the path. Just because it is harder for some to see the path and get caught up in arguments is no reason to just say, OK YOU ALL ARE RIGHT!

Another thing, if you believe that prophet Muhammad pbuh came, you have to acknowledge that Jibrael give him the Quran, is the angel lying? If you say that the angel didnt give him the word and he made it up, then you do not in fact acknowledge the Quran. How can you acknowlege something that you consider to be a lie then instead?
 
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Where have I expressed disbelief of Prophets of God? I express disbelief of the Bible, because it wasn't written/compiled by Jesus... I express disbelief of the Qura'an because it wasn't compiled by Prophet Mohammed... that doesn't mean i express disbelief in either Prophet.

I have never said Jews were Gods 'chosen' people...
 
If you want to see the predictions just search the site. This is a Muslim forum and these topics have been well covered. All these claims you are making, for example that Muhammad pbuh did not compile the Quran have been put forward by say Christians or Jews and have been refuted on this website among many many other places.


You say that you believe in these prophets, then you dont believe that they were predicted, then you say what they wrote was not accurate. Muhammad pbuh himself affirmed the authenticity of the Quran, would a friend of God and a prophet lie?

The message of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad are all in harmony. Any claims otherwise have been refuted again and again by Muslim scholars throughout the ages. If you must see the refutations, a quick search even on this website will suffice. The teachings of the Guru have no basis in any of these religions and that is one of the main things I am asking you. Also, how can you explain the previous chosen people, the Jews?

To say that you acknowledge their existence but not heir works ( in your opinion) seems to be a very bizarre stance.

Now in the Vedas, I have seen the predictions of the Prophet Muhammad ( pbuh). Even in Buddhas works I can see a predicition of Muhammad. Why has Guru been absent from all the scriptures?
Peace, I am only asking for the sake of truth. Last post for tonight, khudhahafiz <-- I probably butchered that.
 
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then you say what they wrote was not accurate
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Moses, Jesus and the other Prophets never wrote anything... neither did Prophet Muhammad..

also.. i shud not have to search the site for anything.. u have stated something and i have asked u to directed me to the sources...

what about the jews do u want me to explain?? once again I say, i don't think jews to be the chosen people... just because some 'doctrine' says it, doesn't make it so.. hence me not believing in any other 'scripture' as the word of God..
 
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They themselves did not write it but their followers who were right there took down their words. It seems to me that you are sidestepping the fact that your guru, his teachings, and your ideas are not in ANY of the books of the Abrahamic religion. In the case of the Prophet Muhammad ( pbuh), he himself presented the Quran as the miracle, he was illiterate so of COURSE his followers would write it. The book has not been abrogated in any way and Qurans dating even to the early eight century. The Torah and Gospels have been abrogated to an extent BUT there was never ever any hint of reincarnation, guru, oy your everyone is right approach to religion. What my argument is that your ideas are neither present nor supported in any of the religions you claim to believe in. Furthermore, I believe it to be very naive to think that you can shrug this off by saying that they didn't write it themselves. As if the prophets never left a mark on this earth.
 
Good that you've resurrected this thread :D

You say Mohammed is mentioned in Hindu Verses. Here have a read of this, Dhan Shri Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaaj Sahib given God like status in Vedas (Though Sikhs DO NOT believe any of the Gurus to be God, neither did they say they were God)

1. In the Hindu epic the RIG VEDA

(i) In Mandala 7, Ush 5, Mantra 5 and Chapter 6

"Bee chakram prithoi aishai ta khestraaeh Vishnu mansai das sayaan
throvaah so asaya keeryo janaas oeroo khashatra so janama
chakaar (8)"


"when in the world the sinful ways will be on the rise and noble behavior will vanish, as the disappearance of the moon when on its wane on the darkest night, there will appear Vishnu as a prominent Prophet from the Keshatra Clan and will manifest in consecutive form through 10 Prophets to bring back the ways of virtue to the ailing world."

(ii) In the same Vedas, in another part even in the name NANAK and the clan he belongs to is recorded thus -

"Sri Nanak gureng vareng saklaath heythoo. Heitha samasth jagathaa va veithee kaetheng"



"For the preaching of religious ways and the earning of good karma, there will manifest Guru NANAK from the clan of the Veithees"

(iii) At another position in the same Vedas is entered under Mandala 1 Soothak 5 and in the 7th Mantra thus -

"Eeth eethei Vishnu reinn chakramei threihaa nathathei patham"



"The Prophet in the Kali Yuga will manifest three attributes. As an Avtar propounding Truth, as a Householder establishing family life and at the same time be a Raja Yogi"


2. The YUJAR VEDA

As in the RIG VEDA quoted above, in the YUJAR VEDA also the Prophet in the Kali Yuga will manifest three main characteristics thus -

"Vishnu bee chakrageih treithaa neikthei patham samudhseiaa paaeh
serei swahaa"

meaning

"Vishnu will appear again, manifesting three main characteristics, Avtarhood, Householder family life and be a Rajah Yogi as well"

Although in the above two quotations the name of Nanak does not directly appear, reference to being a householder family man, would point to him because he was among the first few Avtars (prophets) who was married and begetting children.

Incidentally in Hindu mythology, VISHNU is the primordial Godhead Prophet, who incarnates on Earth taking many differing forms and the ensuing names thereto.


3. In the BHAVEKHATH PURANA

"BHAVEKHATH" means "future foretelling". There are numerous places in this famous Hindu epic where the advent of Guru NANAK is directly alluded to. These instances are listed hereunder -

(i)

"Theraa bhaareng thereshtwah keli krethem maha krethyaa. Aeveng vaee
tharam parchaariang bhavekhthee thaa kalau. Thatha vei
loka rakheiaartheng maleishana naas heithwei paschmeitlheng subh
theisay vath wensei chei Nanaka naam nach rekhiang brahem
geaanaik manas bhavekhet kaloe skunth thatar verth kaleaah har (35)."

meaning

"In the Kali Yuga when goodness in the world is deteriorating there
will appear a Prophet from the Beithi clan named NANAK
who from birth will be endowed with extra-ordinary spiritual power.
He will preach on the nobility of life and the eradication of
the sinful ways"

(ii) In another portion of this book the following short cogent quotation supplies further pertinent information on the advent of Nanak

"Guru thaa Brahma, Guru raa Vishnu, Guru raa dev maheshra saakhyaar
Parbrehem Thasmei NANAK nameh"

meaning

"The Guru of the prophets, Brahma, Vishnu and Shiv ji is God
almighty himself. This very Creator will manifest itself as a human,
in the form of one whose name will be NANAK

Note the clarity and explicitness in which the coming of Nanak is predicted.

(iii) Further down in this book is recorded the following detailed assertiveness about Nanak and the type of mission and work he shall perform. It appears to emanate from the Godhead itself.

"The Kali Yuga shall dawn on Earth with radical manifestation of destruction of Karma and Dharma to such an extent that every situation shall be colored by sinful activities. At that distressful moment, the Creator shall send down a spiritual luminary in the form of NANAK from the Khatria clan. He will spread the message of NAAM, the Holy life Force, by introducing the primacy of meditation and thus washing clean the sinful ways by the waters of love."

Note the beautiful and comprehensive description of the happening.

(iv) There is yet another quotation from this same Bhavekhath Purana indicative of Nanak and the 9 prophets that consecutively followed his lineage : -

"When in the world there is the deterioration of noble Dharma, then Vishnu will reincarnate through 10 Prophethoods and will preach on the universal and omnipotent value of NAAM. (the Holy Life Force)"
 
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AntiKarateKid said:
They themselves did not write it but their followers who were right there took down their words. It seems to me that you are sidestepping the fact that your guru, his teachings, and your ideas are not in ANY of the books of the Abrahamic religion. In the case of the Prophet Muhammad ( pbuh), he himself presented the Quran as the miracle, he was illiterate so of COURSE his followers would write it. The book has not been abrogated in any way and Qurans dating even to the early eight century. The Torah and Gospels have been abrogated to an extent BUT there was never ever any hint of reincarnation, guru, oy your everyone is right approach to religion. What my argument is that your ideas are neither present nor supported in any of the religions you claim to believe in. Furthermore, I believe it to be very naive to think that you can shrug this off by saying that they didn't write it themselves. As if the prophets never left a mark on this earth.
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Hinduism began before any religion. Muslims (and Hindus) use the Vedas to prove Mohammed is predicted, well so is Dhan Guru Nanak Dev ji and the nine other Guru Sahibs. Guru Nanaks coming is explained in much more detail than of Mohammeds. It's not mentioned in Torah, Bible, Quran, well like my brother Heera says, it's written by men. The Guru Grant Sahib is written by the Prophets themselves. (Makes all the difference in the world) Vedas are written by God or it's assumed.

Gur Fateh
 
BTW Karatekid - Muslims alone believe Mohammed is mentioned in the Torah/Bible. Yet the Christians and Jews on this site state otherwise. Why is this?
 
AntiKarateKid said:
They themselves did not write it but their followers who were right there took down their words. It seems to me that you are sidestepping the fact that your guru, his teachings, and your ideas are not in ANY of the books of the Abrahamic religion. In the case of the Prophet Muhammad ( pbuh), he himself presented the Quran as the miracle, he was illiterate so of COURSE his followers would write it. The book has not been abrogated in any way and Qurans dating even to the early eight century. The Torah and Gospels have been abrogated to an extent BUT there was never ever any hint of reincarnation, guru, oy your everyone is right approach to religion. What my argument is that your ideas are neither present nor supported in any of the religions you claim to believe in. Furthermore, I believe it to be very naive to think that you can shrug this off by saying that they didn't write it themselves. As if the prophets never left a mark on this earth.
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firstly... i'm still waiting for the references which you said all prophets were predicted before they're coming...

secondly... of course they weren't mentioned in any of the books, because Guru Nanak came about a millenium after Islam was established.. what difference does it make if they were 'predicted' or not?? Judaism, Islam, and Christianity came from the same region.. of course there will be some 'inter-connection' some where.. because some beliefs were exchanged..

the hindu scriptures were around LONG before the time of Jesus and Muhammad... do they have any predictions of Muhammad? no... some muslims have tried to twist the words of the Vedas to make it suit the characterstics of Muhammad.. they actually had predictions of Jesus; one prophecy describes the future appearance of Isha putra, the son (putra) of God (Isha) (Jesus Christ), born of an unmarried woman named Kumari (Mary) Garbha Sambhava. He would visit India at the age of thirteen and go to the Himalayan Mountains and do tapas or penance to acquire spiritual maturity under the guidance of rishis and siddha-yogis before going back to Palestine to preach to his people. So if Jesus was trained by the sages of India, this would explain why he was able to perform various miracles (siddhas). This would also give importance to the region of India and its spiritual people; which are not given in the Bible nor the Qura'an.

Oh, no mention of Muhammad though.. and, these SAME veda's (written about 3000 BC) also predict the coming of Guru Nanak; now, if u are to acknowledge that veda's predicted Jesus, then you have to acknowledge that they predicted Guru Nanak as well...

thirdly... maybe the reason Prophet Muhammad was illiterate was because there wasn't supposed to be a 'holy scripture'... there is a reason for everything;

They themselves did not write it but their followers who were right there took down their words.
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Not necessarily... above u've given reference to the Torah and the Bible, but these were both compiled long after the death of their prophets.. the bible is known to have been altered over time and there are contradictions upon contradictions in there.... does God's word contradict itself?? Jesus only preached for 3 years... from 13 until his late adult life, he was in India...

also, if you want to believe in the Bible, the bible also says that Jesus is the only way to salvation, which would make Islam obsolete... and it would be hypocritical to say it is the word of God and then turn around and say 'oh, well we don't believe in that part'.. the bible also says the sun revolves around the Earth, and that the Earth is about 10,000 years old.. the Qura'an also gives indications that the Earth was flat... Qura'an also indicates bodies were made from clay...

also one of ur other posts you have said that everything in all 3 of the books (torah, bible, qura'an) flows in harmony... i'm not sure if u've actually sat down and read all of them, but, ur way off on that..

I don't know if you've actually sat down and read the Sree Guru Granth Sahib and know what it is sayin; if you had and absorbed what it was teaching, then you wouldn't have the need to question our Gurus..

please start with providing me sources of the 'foretelling' of all prophets before Guru Nanak..

Bless!
 
^^^^ I was a little suspicious, because sometimes when Sikhism is dissccused posts vanished as in deleted.

Also, i wrote a long reply to a chap
 
there was probably a good 4 or 5 posts deleted...

what i wrote in regards to wearing 5 ks... is that... its VERY doable... its not impractical...

I kno lawyers, doctors, uni professors, scientists, engineers etc... who are Amritdharee (Baptised) and ahve 5 Ks on them at alll time... in fact, i kno sum1 who works for the US military as some weapons engineer or somethin and he wears is too...

I used to work in a bank in Canada and I had all 5 k's on me at all times.. nobody said anything... nobody gave problems.. they all respect it...

if ur confident with urself... nobody will bother u...

its VERY Doable.. and it is done by thousands of people in canada and usa... each 'K' (kakaar) represents somethin and has its own significance...
 
Well, I work in law enforcement, and that just isn't going to happen. There's no way I'd be allowed to have a big beard and a turban. I can't even grow a beard, now that I think of it.

It's impractical in many professions.

My point is that Guru Nanak Dev criticized Hindus who threw water at the sun for their ancestors and criticized Muslims who gave him grief for sleeping with his feet towards the Ka'ba.

But, a person isn't considered a True Sikh® a lot of the time unless they hold to the 5 K's, regardless of what's in their heart.
 

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