Sikhism

[muslimah19]

hi Isdhillion


Im getting confused between our conversion n the ones between ur n the other members, so i do apologise if i am making you repeat yourself. Im afraid im goin to take it step b step, talkin about one topic and then the next, rather than talking about our faiths as whole.


Let me explain this again we believe that koran is a message about god from an angel called gabrielle we believe that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is god because it is divine expression it was not delivered via a messenger

My question here is why do you believe in agel gabriel? Is he mentioned in any of your scriptures? If so what is his importace? Why did he reveal the quran? He brought down a message about allah. Gabriel is the creation of god. Why wud he bring down a revelation that would contradict the next revelation? Now i dont know whether you will believe it or not, but just as sikhs believe the SGGS has not been altered since its creation, we muslims also believe rhe quran, has never been altered. Do you accept this belief of ours? In if so, why would an angel bring down a scripture, in which the the auhtorof the book refers to himslef. iT cant be about god if it is written by god. I dont mean literally written. But im sure you get what i am trying to say.

The link you provided about the miracles of readint he quran was interestin, but as scientist have always attacked us muslims with the fact that, meditation does cure some illnesses. And apparently there is logic behind it. Despite the factas muslims we rely on allah to cure our diseases, through dua (supplication), as you believe in tapping into your innerself rite. So from maybe one can conclude that the creator knew the dificulties one would face and gave us a remedy even before we asked for it. And that would be prayer. Either way when your in deep concentrayion, you gain inner peace and tranquitly. Does that make sense. May allah swt forgive of i have said anything wrong. Ameen.

See the diifernce betwene your opinion and mine is that our salat (prayer) is specifically for allah. I would consider a prayer to be a supplication in which i would gain good for myself and those around me, where as the purpose of salah is to praise the creator.

In the same manner you have show proof of miracles occuring through the recitation of the SGGS, i could also give you proof from the quran, which would state matters relating to things which had not even been known to man in that era.

Here i will give you a site, and i ask you to open mindedly read the sources, and ask yourself whether they are authentic or not.

http://miraclesofthequran.net/scientific_index.html


Now some quotes about reincarnation sorry to paste this but it is important that you understand how much we believe in the concept of reincarnation:


Kirat payiaa na metai koyi: Past actions cannot be erased (sggs 154).

Does this mean he cannot repent after. Im sure you said in your previous quotes that is you conscience sys something is good then it is good n if it says it is bad then it is bad. Sex was given as an example. So what would this line mean then? If you have made a mistake you must live with it until the end of your next life? Where is the mercy then.


Poorab janam ko lekh na mitayee janam marai ka kayu dos dhare: The record of one’s past actions cannot be erased; who else is to blame for one’s birth and death (sggs ).

Who rites these records??Where are they kept?? Will you ever ome to know what good you did and wat bad you did?

Nanak kamaanaa sang juliyaa nah jaayi kirat mitaayaa: Nanak, only your actions will go with you; the consequences of your actions cannot be erased (sggs 460).

O Nanak, their faces are radiant in the Court of the Lord, and many are saved along with them (sggs 9).

I dont suppose can explain this line to me please. I dont uderstand who the MANY are that are saved? and how

Thanks

 

[muslimah19]

Hey


Let me explain this again we believe that koran is a message about god from an angel called gabrielle we believe that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is god because it is divine expression it was not delivered via a messenger

The link you provided about the miracles of readint he quran was interestin,

That was an error, i meant to say the link abour the sggs was interesting. I did not get time to rectify spelling errors

sorry

if there is something you dont understand clearly just ask n i wil explain myself

 

[amardeep]

Salaam aleichum Muslimah19, and may Allah swt bless you.

even though im not dhillon, i would like to answar your questions also.

u wrote:

My question here is why do you believe in agel gabriel? Is he mentioned in any of your scriptures? If so what is his importace? Why did he reveal the quran? He brought down a message about allah. Gabriel is the creation of god.

as far as i am concerned Gabriel is not mentioned in our scriptures. therefore he has no importance as we do not know of him from our own scriptures.

we muslims also believe rhe quran, has never been altered.

we sikhs do not either claim it to be altered, and if people do, it is their own opinions and not sikhi. but one thing is important to note.

in the writings of our tenth Guru, Guru Gobind Singh Jee Maharaj, we can read this about Muhammad (the I is God talking):

Page 135, Line 13
Then I created Muhammed, who was made the master of Arabia.26
He started a religion and circumcised all the kings.

He caused all to utter his name and did not give True Name of the Lord with firmness to anyone.27.

Everyone placed his own interest first and foremost and did not comprehend the Supreme Brahman.

the part of circumcision can mean that he made all the chiefs of the nearby villages of Medina and Mecca muslims. many times in our scriptures circumsicion is mentioned when talking about being/converting/reverting to a muslim.

"everyone" means all the previous prophets that are mentioned in the lines before this, and Brahman means God.


this is one of the only times Muhammad saws is mentioned in our scriptures, so it does not give us any more details on how Muhammad made people uther his name or made his own interests come first.

but if we read into the hadith literature and Quran we will see that this has happend in our point of view.

for instance, Muhammads name is mentioned in your shahada:
"I testify that there is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his messenger"

u set up Muhammad with the name of God, hereby almost making him as important as Allah swt himself.
i as a sikh is considered to be a kafir, even though i do belive in Allah.
so how can i be a kafir when i belive in him? i am a kafir because i dont belive in Muhammad as the LAST messenger of God, hereby making him as important in Islam as Allah swt himself.

in the sikh "shahada" called the Mool Mantra, we only mention God.

in other verses of the Quran we can see that Muhammad took his own interests first(this is how we think of the verses)

reading the Quran you will also see that Muhammad places his own interests first, for instance he gets to choose women he want, which is followed by a revelatio from "God" that says that the person married to the woman will have to leave her. (Quran 33:36-40)
we consider these verses NOT to be from God, but to be from Muhammad himself, because these were ONLY mentioned towards Muhammad , and muslims today have no use of these ayats as they were only adressed to Muhammad. there are thousand of ayats which are only towards Muhammad, and most of them are allowing him to do things the arent are allowed to, or which will benefit him (he can marry his adoptive sons wife).. we have no use of these ayat's hence they are no from God.

in other verses we hear about Muhammad being able to keep the women he is already married to(11 i think), while the other men gets a limit of only 4 wives. this is a benefit for him also.

a lot of places in the Quran Muhammad will also get a revalation whenever he needs one. this could imply that Muhammad made up verses, which was not from God as Dasam Granth tells us..
for instance we hear that Uthman, the Third Caliph had a few things to say when it came to the Quran:

Volume 1, Book 8, Number 395:

Narrated 'Umar (bin Al-Khattab):

My Lord agreed with me in three things:

1. I said,"O Allah's Apostle, I wish we took the station of Abraham as our praying place (for some of our prayers). So came the Divine Inspiration: And take you (people) the station of Abraham as a place of prayer (for some of your prayers e.g. two Rakat of Tawaf of Ka'ba)". (2.125)

2. And as regards the (verse of) the veiling of the women, I said, 'O Allah's Apostle! I wish you ordered your wives to cover themselves from the men because good and bad ones talk to them.' So the verse of the veiling of the women was revealed.

3. Once the wives of the Prophet made a united front against the Prophet and I said to them, 'It may be if he (the Prophet) divorced you, (all) that his Lord (Allah) will give him instead of you wives better than you.' So this verse (the same as I had said) was revealed." (66.5).



these are just some quotes, which emply that Muhammad did not fullfill the commands of God, and went astray and started his own businnes..

this verse also makes one think of how the request of a veil revalation suddenly appeared as Uthman got more and more desperate...

for us it looks like Muhammad and Uthman made up most of the verses as they were creating a religion themselves.

Book 026, Number 5397:

'A'isha reported that the wives of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) used to go out in the cover of night when they went to open fields (in the outskirts of Medina) for easing themselves. 'Umar b Khattab used to say: Allah's Messenger, ask your ladies to observe veil, but Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) did not do that. So there went out Sauda, daughter of Zarn'a, the wife of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), during one of the nights when it was dark. She was a tall statured lady. 'Umar called her saying: Sauda, we recognise you. (He did this with the hope that the verses pertaining to veil would be revealed.) 'A'isha said: Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, then revealed the verses pertaining to veil.


if you look into the early revalations of Islam in the Mecca period u will also see that they have a quite clear resemblance to the ones in our Guru Granth Sahab Ji, and Muhammad also did not pray on the mountain when he got ordered to "iqra"...he was meditating the way our Gurus did.


this is the sikh view of Islam.


so in short: Muhammad was a prophet of God, but he went astray and started his own thing.

but even as you follow Islam, you will not be thrown in hell for doing so...


anotheer thing..we sikhs also do pray in our temples which are also ONLY to Allah...we meditate at home when we are alone...so we do both...but the meditation part is what makes sikhism different from other religions (dont even sure i can call Sikhism a religion, its more a way of life)

u further write:
So what would this line mean then? If you have made a mistake you must live with it until the end of your next life? Where is the mercy then

yes exactly. the same way, if u commit theft or murder in this life u will still to to jail even though you may regret it. In Islam you say that God will forgive you for everything, besides Shirk(worshippin others than Allah for sikhs who dont know what this means) but then, we as sikhs dont consider this justice. if a man commits murder, and then regrets it.. does it mean he will have no punishment in the hereafter?

in sikhism we say "you shall sow what you reap".

if Saddam Hussein starts to pray for forgiveness, will he get it, even though he committed murder of more than 1 million people?

Who rites these records??Where are they kept?? Will you ever ome to know what good you did and wat bad you did?
God does. an yes you will hear them in the Dharam Raj- Court of God, after you die.

O Nanak, their faces are radiant in the Court of the Lord, and many are saved along with them (sggs 9).

I dont suppose can explain this line to me please. I dont uderstand who the MANY are that are saved? and how

the way i understand it, is that many people have been saved(they will merge with God, or go to a temporary paradise if they are muslims, christians etc) if they have done good deeds. your deeds will take you to Paradise, and your belief will keep you off hell..
being a muslim or sikh, it is not guaranteed that you will enter paradise at some point in the hereafter..

i hope this answered your questions sister, and let me know if you have any.

i hope i did not offend any.

Ma Salaama

-Amardeep

 

[ISDhillon]

Satsriakal Ansar Al - adr Ji,


“But you didn't ask me about Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji, you asked me if it was okay for a Muslim to pray in another direction. “

this is right and we do not believe that it is in conconance with teachings of Sikhism to have such a religious view this is why our guru rejects it because we get our unity through other means.

“whatever direction they please which could be very dangerous and chaotic.”

I disagree I don’t understand how this would happen.



“I'm not sure what you want me to advise because you've first agreed that truth is not self-contradictory and then you've proceeded to deny it again.”

No I have have highlighted the struggle between your approach at comparative religion from your worldview and my approach my approach disagrees with you approach because to accept reason as a common frame of reference would deny the sovereignity of my faiths doctrine I think I am saying that my religion is above reason. They reason why I then go on to reject this is to show you our way which works also but is referred to by those who use reason as the untenable post-modern but we can live with that our religion comes first.



“God does not lie. Yes, God is the truth but He does not tell one group X is evil and another group X is not evil.”

Firstly this is your opinion and I do not share it nor does my religion, god creates Q.E.D, he can create many “sovereign” (do you understand what I mean by sovereign) doctrines and the fact that they all co-exist at once is proof that he can but this is not a lie or false, just one is not in consonance with the teachings of the other.


“As for the summer analogy, how does it relate to truth? The sun can be shining in some locations and not others on a geospherical planet, but the truth in singular regardless.”

Because god is truth and it is right that the same summer manifests itself differently in all continents. This was an attempt to show you how a constant can be different and variable at the same time. When you say the truth is singular this is your opinion and I do not believe in it regardless either.


“A very long winded explanation, yet I'm still no closer to getting answers for my questions. Who decides when something is right and when it is wrong? Please tell me clearly whether the following actions are right or wrong:
-suicide
-abortion
-necrophilia
-incest
-cannabalism”

please don’t say it is a long winded explanation my explanation was very clear to understand, well I don’t know whether you have deliberately ignored my explanation but I will not give you a clear answer because my religion does not teach us to pass judgement on a reality other than ourselves, this is what the long winded explanation highlighted if you did not understand the explanation then re-read and ask again. What goes against my conscience? I will answer but I will not speak for others:

suicide – depends on my circumstance
Abortion – only if mothers/babies life is in danger
Necrophilia – no, but I cannot speak for others
Incest – I don’t have a problem with others but would never myself, and would advise my children from marrying the offspring of such a relationship
Cannibalism – no but if people eat the body of a dead person then that’s their business it is of no consequence to and would not prevent my spiritual progress
“I think reason and logic is universal, and not ethnocentric.”
What you think is your personal opinion and reason and logic have never been universally applied to matters of faith until the advent of the modern error religion was mostly blind faith, ethnocentric? Where did you get that from it has nothing to do with ethnocentricity I am referring to religious doctrine not western and eastern philosophy. My religion is not western or eastern it is universal for gods creation not just for humankind.
“So God didn't create Himself.”


I never said that are you deliberately reading between the lines?, previously you have already mentioned that god has a singular form we Sikhs do not believe this, you have also stated previously that you believe god is truth, but having accepted reason and logic something right is also true how is it then that 2 things which are true can both be different when my god evidently must only have a singular form? Accepting your own logic you are saying that god is truth and god is also the right in every logical debate that has been proved true this is in itself a contradiction of god having only a singular form. Either god is separate from truth or god is truth which do you believe?


“Do you think the truth can contradict logic and reason? “
I think truth created logic and reason but it transcends this ie, logic and reason cannot be applied to the nature of divine essence but mans conduct in society can be formulated by interpreting sentences for fruitful activities of the seeker.


“Suppose you find a thief in your house stealing your money. When you confront the thief he claims that a powerful gust of wind sent him flying through your window and the wind was so strong it forced his hands to open and close, grasping your money and shoving it into his pockets. HE claims that his story is the truth. Do you reject his story and say that it is not the truth because it is illogical or do you sit down and meditate and hope some answer will come to you?”
the truth within is my conscience and this would tell me that the story is fabricated therefore wrong but not that the story was untrue as god has no opposite, and I would restrain the individual. I don’t know whether your statement about meditation was sarcasm but If it was don’t do it again thanks.

“No, I'm afraid I don't. Truth should not contradict reason and logic.”

Don’t be afraid you are entitled to your opinion which is wrong in my opinion, as the truth creates logic and reason but reason and logic can never assess truth it would be like man using his mind to know god rather than utilising the truth within or gurbani which is absolute truth on earth to reveal the truth within.
“Those who? Branded by who?”

most apologetics and religions including islam which disagree with the concept of self-realisation because they all believe in objective truth so that they can play the game of reason.
“Would you like me to take an illogical approach to dialogue? Would that be better?”

my approach is not illogical nor would I ask you to take an illogical approach I am telling you that my approach is universal which is in keeping with sikh doctrine but if islam believes in using a common frame of reference other than islam itself and also that the purpose of scripture is to reason to objective truth and that the subsequent outcome would verify the reliability of your scripture then that’s ok for you. But in Sikhism my scripture is sung and read for the purpose of awakening my soul because the word has a divine property we do not believe in the use of scripture other than as a touchstone of self-realisation and guidance for the soul not for how to conduct man in society our guru freed our minds from such restrictions. I know I know that was long-winded too but it’s the only way I can explain because the English language is very limited many words don’t even exist for my religion in English.

Kind Regards,:thankyou:


ISDhillon

Satsriakal Muslimah Ji

“My question here is why do you believe in agel gabriel? Is he mentioned in any of your scriptures? If so what is his importace? Why did he reveal the quran? He brought down a message about allah. Gabriel is the creation of god. Why wud he bring down a revelation that would contradict the next revelation? Now i dont know whether you will believe it or not, but just as sikhs believe the SGGS has not been altered since its creation, we muslims also believe rhe quran, has never been altered. Do you accept this belief of ours? In if so, why would an angel bring down a scripture, in which the the auhtorof the book refers to himslef. iT cant be about god if it is written by god. I dont mean literally written. But im sure you get what i am trying to say.”

Ok there are many questions here but I think to us it the nature of angels which perceive differently in both our religions, we believe that all angels need the shabad also which is the bani of SGGS we do not believe that angels can bring bani to man as it is only divine expression in the following verse Sri Guru Amardas Ji describes the importance of gurshabad and also mentions how even the angels use the shabad to attain the glory of gods kingdom:


ibnu sbdY jgu duKIAw iPrY mnmuKw no geI Kwie ]
bin sabadhai jag dhukheeaa firai manamukhaa no gee khaae ||
Without the Shabad, the world wanders lost in pain. The self-willed manmukh is consumed.
1 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

sbdy nwmu iDAweIAY sbdy sic smwie ]4]
sabadhae naam dhhiaaeeai sabadhae sach samaae ||4||
Through the Shabad, meditate on the Naam; through the Shabad, you shall merge in Truth. ||4||
1 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

mwieAw BUly isD iPrih smwiD n lgY suBwie ]
maaeiaa bhoolae sidhh firehi samaadhh n lagai subhaae ||
The Siddhas wander around, deluded by Maya; they are not absorbed in the Samaadhi of the Lord's Sublime Love.
2 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

qIny loA ivAwpq hY AiDk rhI lptwie ]
theenae loa viaapath hai adhhik rehee lapattaae ||
The three worlds are permeated by Maya; they are totally covered by it.
2 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

ibnu gur mukiq n pweIAY nw duibDw mwieAw jwie ]5]
bin gur mukath n paaeeai naa dhubidhhaa maaeiaa jaae ||5||
Without the Guru, liberation is not attained, and the double-mindedness of Maya does not go away. ||5||
3 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

mwieAw iks no AwKIAY ikAw mwieAw krm kmwie ]
maaeiaa kis no aakheeai kiaa maaeiaa karam kamaae ||
What is called Maya? What does Maya do?
3 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

duiK suiK eyhu jIau bDu hY haumY krm kmwie ]
dhukh sukh eaehu jeeo badhh hai houmai karam kamaae ||
These beings are bound by pleasure and pain; they do their deeds in egotism.
4 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

ibnu sbdY Brmu n cUkeI nw ivchu haumY jwie ]6]
bin sabadhai bharam n chookee naa vichahu houmai jaae ||6||
Without the Shabad, doubt is not dispelled, and egotism is not eliminated from within. ||6||
4 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

ibnu pRIqI Bgiq n hoveI ibnu sbdY Qwie n pwie ]
bin preethee bhagath n hovee bin sabadhai thhaae n paae ||
Without love, there is no devotional worship. Without the Shabad, no one finds acceptance.
5 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

sbdy haumY mwrIAY mwieAw kw BRmu jwie ]
sabadhae houmai maareeai maaeiaa kaa bhram jaae ||
Through the Shabad, egotism is conquered and subdued, and the illusion of Maya is dispelled.
6 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

nwmu pdwrQu pweIAY gurmuiK shij suBwie ]7]
naam padhaarathh paaeeai guramukh sehaj subhaae ||7||
The Gurmukh obtains the Treasure of the Naam with intuitive ease. ||7||
6 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

ibnu gur gux n jwpnI ibnu gux Bgiq n hoie ]
bin gur gun n jaapanee bin gun bhagath n hoe ||
Without the Guru, one's virtues do not shine forth; without virtue, there is no devotional worship.
7 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

Bgiq vClu hir min visAw shij imilAw pRBu soie ]
bhagath vashhal har man vasiaa sehaj miliaa prabh soe ||
The Lord is the Lover of His devotees; He abides within their minds. They meet that God with intuitive ease.
7 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

nwnk sbdy hir swlwhIAY krim prwpiq hoie ]8]4]21]
naanak sabadhae har saalaaheeai karam paraapath hoe ||8||4||21||
O Nanak, through the Shabad, praise the Lord. By His Grace, He is obtained. ||8||4||21||
8 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

isrIrwgu mhlw 3 ]
sireeraag mehalaa 3 ||
Siree Raag, Third Mehl:
8 NULL NULL

mwieAw mohu myrY pRiB kInw Awpy Brim Bulwey ]
maaeiaa mohu maerai prabh keenaa aapae bharam bhulaaeae ||
Emotional attachment to Maya is created by my God; He Himself misleads us through illusion and doubt.
9 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

mnmuiK krm krih nhI bUJih ibrQw jnmu gvwey ]
manamukh karam karehi nehee boojhehi birathhaa janam gavaaeae ||
The self-willed manmukhs perform their actions, but they do not understand; they waste away their lives in vain.
9 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

gurbwxI iesu jg mih cwnxu krim vsY min Awey ]1]
gurabaanee eis jag mehi chaanan karam vasai man aaeae ||1||
Gurbani is the Light to illuminate this world; by His Grace, it comes to abide within the mind. ||1||
10 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

mn ry nwmu jphu suKu hoie ]
man rae naam japahu sukh hoe ||
O mind, chant the Naam, the Name of the Lord, and find peace.
10 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

guru pUrw swlwhIAY shij imlY pRBu soie ]1] rhwau ]
gur pooraa saalaaheeai sehaj milai prabh soe ||1|| rehaao ||
Praising the Perfect Guru, you shall easily meet with that God. ||1||Pause||
11 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

Brmu gieAw Bau BwigAw hir crxI icqu lwie ]
bharam gaeiaa bho bhaagiaa har charanee chith laae ||
Doubt departs, and fear runs away, when you focus your consciousness on the Lord's Feet.
11 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

gurmuiK sbdu kmweIAY hir vsY min Awie ]
guramukh sabadh kamaaeeai har vasai man aae ||
The Gurmukh practices the Shabad, and the Lord comes to dwell within the mind.
12 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

Gir mhil sic smweIAY jmkwlu n skY Kwie ]2]
ghar mehal sach samaaeeai jamakaal n sakai khaae ||2||
In the mansion of the home within the self, we merge in Truth, and the Messenger of Death cannot devour us. ||2||
12 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

nwmw CIbw kbIru juolwhw pUry gur qy giq pweI ]
naamaa shheebaa kabeer juolaahaa poorae gur thae gath paaee ||
Naam Dayv the printer, and Kabeer the weaver, obtained salvation through the Perfect Guru.
13 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

bRhm ky byqy sbdu pCwxih haumY jwiq gvweI ]
breham kae baethae sabadh pashhaanehi houmai jaath gavaaee ||
Those who know God and recognize His Shabad lose their ego and class consciousness.
13 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

suir nr iqn kI bwxI gwvih koie n mytY BweI ]3]
sur nar thin kee baanee gaavehi koe n maettai bhaaee ||3||
Their Banis are sung by the angelic beings, and no one can erase them, O Siblings of Destiny! ||3||
14 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

dYq puqu krm Drm ikCu sMjm n pVY dUjw Bwau n jwxY ]
dhaith puth karam dhharam kishh sanjam n parrai dhoojaa bhaao n jaanai ||
The demon's son Prahlaad had not read about religious rituals or ceremonies, austerity or self-discipline; he did not know the love of duality.
14 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

siqguru ByitAY inrmlu hoAw Anidnu nwmu vKwxY ]
sathigur bhaettiai niramal hoaa anadhin naam vakhaanai ||
Upon meeting with the True Guru, he became pure; night and day, he chanted the Naam, the Name of the Lord.
15 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

eyko pVY eyko nwau bUJY dUjw Avru n jwxY ]4]
eaeko parrai eaeko naao boojhai dhoojaa avar n jaanai ||4||
He read only of the One and he understood only the One Name; he knew no other at all. ||4||
15 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

Ktu drsn jogI sMinAwsI ibnu gur Brim Bulwey ]
khatt dharasan jogee sanniaasee bin gur bharam bhulaaeae ||
The followers of the six different life-styles and world-views, the Yogis and the Sanyaasees have gone astray in doubt without the Guru.
16 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

siqguru syvih qw giq imiq pwvih hir jIau mMin vswey ]
sathigur saevehi thaa gath mith paavehi har jeeo mann vasaaeae ||
If they serve the True Guru, they find the state of salvation; they enshrine the Dear Lord within their minds.
17 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

scI bwxI isau icqu lwgY Awvxu jwxu rhwey ]5]
sachee baanee sio chith laagai aavan jaan rehaaeae ||5||
They focus their consciousness on the True Bani, and their comings and goings in reincarnation are over. ||5||
17 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

pMifq piV piV vwdu vKwxih ibnu gur Brim Bulwey ]
panddith parr parr vaadh vakhaanehi bin gur bharam bhulaaeae ||
The Pandits, the religious scholars, read and argue and stir up controversies, but without the Guru, they are deluded by doubt.
18 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

lK caurwsIh Pyru pieAw ibnu sbdY mukiq n pwey ]
lakh chouraaseeh faer paeiaa bin sabadhai mukath n paaeae ||
They wander around the cycle of 8.4 million reincarnations; without the Shabad, they do not attain liberation.
18 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

jw nwau cyqY qw giq pwey jw siqguru myil imlwey ]6]
jaa naao chaethai thaa gath paaeae jaa sathigur mael milaaeae ||6||
But when they remember the Name, then they attain the state of salvation, when the True Guru unites them in Union. ||6||
19 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

sqsMgiq mih nwmu hir aupjY jw siqguru imlY suBwey ]
sathasangath mehi naam har oupajai jaa sathigur milai subhaaeae ||
In the Sat Sangat, the True Congregation, the Name of the Lord wells up, when the True Guru unites us in His Sublime Love.


As a general rule we do not revere the angels the are nothing to us and they all paid homage to our gurus. In fact when sri guru arjan dev ji was executed he halted all the angels from saving his execution and told them that they too needed to learn the will of god. To cut it short we believe semitic faiths are indirect revelations via angels we believe gurshabad is direct revelation from god.

“Either way when your in deep concentrayion, you gain inner peace and tranquitly. Does that make sense. May allah swt forgive of i have said anything wrong. Ameen.”

True, you know when I was younger I always loved listening to the muslim women on the radio who read the prayer I forget what they called it, they are short compositions there is no music and I think in arabic but it was the tones which were heavenly and soothing so I am sure that it does have healing properties but like the old saying goes you cannot sail the ocean with two feet in separate boats that’s why I liked surah kafirun.

“Does this mean he cannot repent after. Im sure you said in your previous quotes that is you conscience sys something is good then it is good n if it says it is bad then it is bad. Sex was given as an example. So what would this line mean then? If you have made a mistake you must live with it until the end of your next life? Where is the mercy then.”

There are many thins that one can do in the full knowledge that they go against your conscience, what the guru is saying is that anything you do will have an effect but naam simran “burns” karma it helps you suffer or enjoy now, this is why when people pray they get emotional because the further you go within the more painful it can get.

“Who rites these records??Where are they kept?? Will you ever ome to know what good you did and wat bad you did?”

dharamraja keeps a record in the chitra and gupta this is very technical stuff and you will get bored if I go into too much detail trust me its just enough to know that bigbrother is watching ooooohhhh!!!!

“I dont suppose can explain this line to me please. I dont uderstand who the MANY are that are saved? and how”

those who achieved salvation and broke free from the wheel of karma by recognising a one-ness in spirit with the lord are radiant in the lords court, the rest keep coming and going in creation until its their time.

Gurfateh:thankyou:

ISDhillon

 

[unbreakable]

bro

We do like to sing praises of allah, but we also like bringing people to the true path of Allah in our eyes. You obviously dont think this is true so fair enough, but since this is an islamic forum, and we want to spread the teachings of islam to others, and since these other sikh bros came onto this forum, they are bound to be given da'wah

I'm afraid I disagree brother.

If you read the first half-a-dozen posts, people were placing alot of misunderstood third party claims about Sikhism and they were mocking the faith. Is this what Allah teaches you?

What you have to agree with me on is that no Muslim on this site actually knows a single thing about Sikhism. Fact is that they don't really want to and this thread is a waste of time as all we can see is a war of words.

Not much of a comparative section. More like a mocking section "my way is better than yours".

I'll admit I do not know much about Islam, unlike my Muslim brothers and sisters here, at least I don't and am not making any assumptions.

For me, my life, Sikhism is the only way; I pray and thank Waheguru every moment of life that I have been blessed with this way of life.

Before starting to talk about another faith, it’s good to actually do some research about it by talking to the followers of that faith, rather than ask your mate about it. Its really common sense. :giggling:

Let me ask you a question.

What does the Quran say about Sikhs in its 114 odd chapters? Please don’t just copy and paste material, explain what they mean.

I am a Sikh, you are welcome into my home, i.e. being Sri Darbar Sahib, famously known as The Golden Temple, you are welcome to come and pray, many Hindus, Muslims, etc do come to pray.

Can I as a Sikh come to the Kabba? If not, why?

I believe in God, why can I not go into what is known in the Muslim world as "the house of God" and pray as a Sikh? Will Allah not hear my prayer?


Only sensible and mature people need reply.

Unbreakable.

 

[Mohsin]

Is reincarnation a punishment or a reward?

This is a complex question, so I will answer it without to much details because the reincarnation theory is very difficult to explain fully.

U see, u cant use reincarnation without Karma as they go together hand in hand.

but in short. For some reincarnation is a punishment, and for others it is a reward. That is why some people live a horrible life on earth where they are miserable and bad things constantly happens to them. That’s why people are poor and starving in Africa etc. they are being punished.

is this what Sikhism teaches or your own beliefs? I'm deeply disturbed by this sorry. We believe rather God tests us all in different ways, and he rewards us for remaining true in faith, and all our sufferings will be rewarded for in the hereafter
how is it that a poor african boy who hasd done nothing wrong in this life can be guilty and be punished for something he done in a so called previous life. Does he know about this? Does he know he's done somthing bad before. It's obvious he doesn't, so basically he is suffering but doesn't know why? how can he get out of this cycle?

 

[Mohsin]

Unbreakable

I'm afraid I disagree brother.

If you read the first half-a-dozen posts, people were placing alot of misunderstood third party claims about Sikhism and they were mocking the faith. Is this what Allah teaches you?

Ok i owe you an apology, i see what you are talking about now.
No it is not what Allah teaches us, there is a verse in the Qur'an which says to argue and debate with wisdom and beautiful preaching. I think the bro that started convo was just asking around for good arguments to use against sikhs, if others knew of anything, and since no sikhs were in the forum at the time, it seemed one way.

What does the Quran say about Sikhs in its 114 odd chapters? Please don’t just copy and paste material, explain what they mean.

We dont believe in Sikhs as a divine religion. As far as i am aware nothing is mentioned in the Qur'an, but in the Hadith of the Prophet SAW, he has said there will arise future false prophets. That is our view of the gurus who claimed to be at one with God

however i can ask you, where Does the SGGS talk about the other semetic Prophets PBUT?

I am a Sikh, you are welcome into my home, i.e. being Sri Darbar Sahib, famously known as The Golden Temple, you are welcome to come and pray, many Hindus, Muslims, etc do come to pray.

You can also come to my house and mosque, islam dosn't forbid this

Can I as a Sikh come to the Kabba? If not, why?

Because God has said only people following his true way, the natural way of fitra he prescribed to Abraham AS. It is a pure land saved only for true worship of God, by true worship i mean something god has actually prescribed, not something that has come from man. As muslims we believe Sikh rituals are man made and not from God, so they are false worship, so in a pure land such as Mecca there is only room for true pure worship. Obviously you are going to disagree with my explanation, since you don't believe Sikhism is false worship, but i only gave you the muslim reason, i hope you understand it

 

[muslimah19]

thanks for your reply amardeep.

Before i go any further id like to take a misconception out of your mind. The muslims on this forum are not by any means being arrogant towards the sikhs. What you have to understand is that we are not scholars. We cannot expalin to you something that which we are not 100% sure about ourself. We cannot give you verses at the top of our head and explain it because in order to understand its origin and meaning one has to in depth study.

If we did this and gave you false info then that would be creating a lie againt allah. These are all things that we will be questioned about on the day of judgement. Making a mistake is one thing but intentionally giving false details is something far off.

The verses that you mentioned where you seem to think that Mohammed (pbuh) made up for his own good are those that had benefit to mankind also. The verse about the veil was directed to Mohammed (pbuh) but he is our prime example. He hold great importance.

listen il get bak to you with more detail

cya

 

[Mohsin]

This post goes mainly out to Dhillon, but other Sikhs can also answer

You say we don't requite logic when it come to faith, since God is truth etc.

Well you agree to say that Sikhism is the ultimate religion right?

Now what would happen if you weren't born into Sikhism, but instead say you were born a Mormon, and brought up to believe like some mormons believe that blacks are cursed.
Would you continue this worship? even though it defies your logic? Because God would never prescribe for us such a thing, to say blacks are inferior

So what would lead you to Sikhism? Do you guys think, honestly now, that you would become Sikhs had you not be born into that religion? What proofs or miracles does the SGGS provide. See with me i honestly believe insha'allah i'd become a muslim regardless of how i was born, because simple logic would lead me to this, there are so many truths and miracles provided for by islam. But you deny logic, so does that mean you wouldn't become a Sikh? because if you say you would why would you? Either way you'd have to admit logic is in existence for us to see the right religion from the wrong religion

 

[ISDhillon]

Satrsriakal Moss Ji:brother:


“is this what Sikhism teaches or your own beliefs?”

is it really shocking and disturbing or is this what we are lead to believe? You shouldn’t be disturbed I have already addressed this I have suffered in my life why is it that I do believe I deserved all that happens to me? It depends on your faith if you believe that living by gods will includes suffering and happiness then you are not disturbed by any of this and we believe that god tests us because we all have to deal with anger, fear lust ego and attachment these things lead man astray.

“how is it that a poor african boy who hasd done nothing wrong in this life can be guilty and be punished for something he done in a so called previous life.”

Why do you say punished? You don’t know what he has or hasn’t done in his passed life just cos we believe in karma does not mean we are mean and nasty people we still do charity and accept this law at the same time, to say it is unfair depends upon your perception.


“It's obvious he doesn't, so basically he is suffering but doesn't know why? how can he get out of this cycle?”

he does not have to know because we would all do charity and help the person even if they personally did or did not know the reason why they suffered you say it’s a test I can agree that the test is not to create more bad karma so abide by your suffering don’t steal anymore or you create the seed for your next life.

“however i can ask you, where Does the SGGS talk about the other semetic Prophets PBUT?”

how many times have I supplied you with quotes from sggs about the Koran we don’t care whether you believe Sikhism is divine or not the fact is that day to day we are a living proof that personal views are wrong you can never debate and refute Sikhism because you do not have the knowledge in Koran to debate sikhi but we can debate and refute islam cos our religion teaches it. Many have tried and all have failed. Tomorrow I could tell everyone that god (sggs) says that Koran is an angelic revelation therefore angel Gabrielle should be hauled up in front of a war crimes tribunal for crimes against humanity because the indirect revelation has been the cause of so much atrocities throughout history, would that be acceptable?

“Because God has said only people following his true way, the natural way of fitra he prescribed to Abraham AS.”

God says nothing because your revelation is indirect from an angel, but god on earth in the form of sri guru nanak dev ji told people that kaaba was nothing this is the only direct revelation and therefore will be held in greater esteem that Koran.

“You say we don't requite logic when it come to faith, since God is truth etc.”

no I have said that you cannot use reason and logic to fathom an incomprehensible god ie, contradictions of nirgun and sargun, eternal and created etc. you can interpret verses for fruitful activities of the seeker because we live in a world where we use our minds but practicing our religion is different to the day to day activities a person carries out because our guru says “jeh too prem killan kaa chao sir thal talli galli merai aavau” – if you want to play the game of love then surrender your head to me. Meaning that you must surrender your whole being when focussing on the gurshabad it does not make sense in my religion that I refute the bani as I read it when it is only supposed to appeal to my soul.

“Well you agree to say that Sikhism is the ultimate religion right?”

no I believe that Sikhism is the path most righteous for me and it is the only direct revelation, I cant speak for the whole of mankind because I am my own reality but I know that people from other paths can also achieve the purpose of Sikhism because my religion teaches this. There is never one answer moss you should know that by now.

“Now what would happen if you weren't born into Sikhism, but instead say you were born a Mormon, and brought up to believe like some mormons believe that blacks are cursed.
Would you continue this worship? even though it defies your logic? Because God would never prescribe for us such a thing, to say blacks are inferior”

Experience from outside the brainwashing would allow me to readjust such maladaptive thoughts but I would never use my logic, how could i? how can I possibly find out from the perceived godly revelation whether blacks are really a cursed people other than by sharing the company of blacks, in this sense many muslims who went to university with me have shared the company of homosexuals and likewise also arrived at the point that gays are not evil or bad people. But dhan dhan gursikhi discrimantes against noone and this is why I have no qualm with any other nor do I negate the other I only uproot the other if the other challenges me. Do you get me? Only a direct revelation from god can agree with all times, my guru does not discriminate against any sector in society that is why it is pure truth. Just imagine telling a society which has condemned people to death for the way they are that they are wrong? Are they suddenly gonna believe that they have all stood by and watched innocent people be slaughtered all in vain, that they needlessly lossed their loved ones?, no because ego and fear of reprisals would not allow for such a claim to ever surface and so the butchers continue to rule the roost and incur more and more wrath of god especially through natural disasters.

“But you deny logic, so does that mean you wouldn't become a Sikh? because if you say you would why would you?”

because it is a spiritual aspect which entices me to my religion if logic entices you to islam then your religion is devoid of spiritual enlightenment but my religion is not about appeasing my mind because it fits into a logical framework, my religion is about spiritual enlightenment, I have to say at this point and this will come across very offensively but you have a lot of understanding issues if you have not got by now the paradigm shift between our religions.

“ Either way you'd have to admit logic is in existence for us to see the right religion from the wrong religion”

no not at all, logic and reason are in existence as a form of rational inquiry from which our minds can function in creation, but my soul is not a part of logic and reason ie, it needs more than mental appeasement it needs the truth aka gurshabad.

Let me know If I can help you out,

ISDhillon:thankyou:

 

[amardeep]

Salaam Moss Jee

u wrote:

is this what Sikhism teaches or your own beliefs? I'm deeply disturbed by this sorry. We believe rather God tests us all in different ways, and he rewards us for remaining true in faith, and all our sufferings will be rewarded for in the hereafter
how is it that a poor african boy who hasd done nothing wrong in this life can be guilty and be punished for something he done in a so called previous life. Does he know about this? Does he know he's done somthing bad before. It's obvious he doesn't, so basically he is suffering but doesn't know why? how can he get out of this cycle?

it is the way i have interpret the verses regarding reincarnation and karma.

how is it fair that God tests some people harder than others? how is it fair that people in Africa are starvin to death, while others in the west are living a normal life without any tests. they just live a socaled "smooth life".

what about the babies that die of hunger. how have they been tested? they cant speak, nor do anything, so how is it that they are being testet when they know nothing.

and no, u dont know what u have done, u have to begin from square 1 and start all over again. lets say a man gets reincarnated because he committed a murder, but everything else he did in his life was good.
if this man knows what he has done in a previous life he will propbably only try to stop commiting any more murders as this was his only crime.
but if he does not know what he has done, then he will probably do good in all other essences also..

its the same with school. if u fail a subject of math and have to do that year again, then you have to start from the beginning and do well in ALL subjects, and not only in math because this was the only subject you failed in.

most of sikhism is logic, and its beliefs can always be taken as examples in our everyday life like i just did now.

Ma Salaama

 

[amardeep]

Salaam Aleichum muslimah19.

im off for work now, so i'l just leave a quick comment.

i did'n mean to offend anyone by saying Muhammad made up verses, i just wanted to show how we as sikhs consider Muhamads "job" as a Prophet.
Guru Nanak said that Muhammad is the Friend of God, which means we have no hatred towards him.

May Allah bless you and all of mankind.

Ma Salaama

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hello ISDhillon,

“But you didn't ask me about Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji, you asked me if it was okay for a Muslim to pray in another direction. “
this is right and we do not believe that it is in conconance with teachings of Sikhism to have such a religious view

Not my concern.

“whatever direction they please which could be very dangerous and chaotic.”
I disagree I don’t understand how this would happen.

Have you seen how Muslims pray? Imagine one person in the congregation praying in the opposite direction. :rollseyes

Even worse would be the apparent shirk. Suppose some people picked the grave of some individual to be the qiblah. It would be to chaotic, so it is best for God to decree a direction.

I think I am saying that my religion is above reason.

Fair enough. I guess it is of no use for me to reason with you then.

“Suppose you find a thief in your house stealing your money. When you confront the thief he claims that a powerful gust of wind sent him flying through your window and the wind was so strong it forced his hands to open and close, grasping your money and shoving it into his pockets. HE claims that his story is the truth. Do you reject his story and say that it is not the truth because it is illogical or do you sit down and meditate and hope some answer will come to you?”
the truth within is my conscience and this would tell me that the story is fabricated therefore wrong

What you are referring to as your 'conscience' is what is typically referred to as logic, rationality, reason, common sense, etc. Here you have rejected his claim that the story is truth only because it is illogical. What you have proven here is that truth cannot contradict logic.

“Would you like me to take an illogical approach to dialogue? Would that be better?”

my approach is not illogical nor would I ask you to take an illogical approach

Something that is not in concordance with logic is deemed illogical.

Regards

 

[Lion King]

Waheguru ji Ka Khalsa - Waheguru ji Ki Fateh, Moss!

[Purity (Khalsa) belongs to God - Victory belongs to God!]

Hello, everyone, am new here. Been reading this thread for a couple of days. Am a Sikh. IS Dhillon has been very inspiring and enlightening even to me, obviously he is a learned person, and so are some of the members here. I admit to not knowing to the depth of Dhillon's wisdom, but I would like to give my viewpoints on whateve rmatter I think I know, and I must admit before hand that I might not have all the answers, but I am sure, IS Dhillon will be able to give better answers than me.

Moss ji,

In one of your previous posts you were asking how would a person know what he did in his last life when he has no memory of it. Well, from what I have read of the New Age books, hypnosis regression helps us to recollect our past, be it a few days, weeks, months or years ago. It even helps us to recollect our childhood moments, when we were below the age of 3 or 2 - to the point that it has gone to the extent of helping patients recollect their past lives - especially events that have been the cause of trauma in this life. This is what new age psychiatrists are doing, and they have been successful to cure certain phobias and mental of their patients.

Now you may ask, does that mean people have to be regressed under hypnotism to retrieve past life memories? Well, I have also read that this is also attainable when a person meditates. In some meditation state, when the mind is in complete control and body feels light as a feather, and conciously when the meditator goes back in time in his mind, it can cross many years n lifespans possible. I have tried to answer how such recolelction can be done.

Is karma to blame for our lack of past-life memories when we cannot even recollect our present life's childhood years?

"So what would lead you to Sikhism?"

If I study Sikhism from the outside, then it would be the love affair between God and the human spirit that will lead me to Sikhism.

"What proofs or miracles does the SGGS provide."

Sikhism does not believe in the show of miracles. Guru Tegh Bahadur was asked to show a miracle to the emperor aurangzeb so that his holiness could be believed upon and his life could be spared, but he never showed any. My Guru believed that even if a highly evolved spirit ws into showing miracles, then that person has not overcome the flaw of pride and vanity. On the other hand, I read in the Bible, when God performed so many miracles (causing a flame to stop the Egyptians from reaching the Jews,dividing the sea so the Jews could cross over into the promised land, etc.) even then, when Moses disappeared for 40 days to receive the 10 commandments, the Jews abandoned their faith in God and began merry-making and also sculptured their own idols to worship. This in a way goes to show that, no matter how many miracles God performed, it will never be enough for people to have full conviction in Him. - or so the Bible says.


Just a thought,
Lion King

 

[ISDhillon]

[QUOTE


"Fair enough. I guess it is of no use for me to reason with you then."

this is right.


"What you are referring to as your 'conscience' is what is typically referred to as logic, rationality, reason, common sense, etc."


no conscience is sixth sense logical deuction is a form of inquiry i would not inquire of the theifs intention i would know the theif is lying in fact i would not even wait for a story.

"Here you have rejected his claim that the story is truth only because it is illogical. What you have proven here is that truth cannot contradict logic."

i have written above that you do not need to firstly hear the story and yes i have rejected the story as being wrong not untrue, and i have also said that god cannot be reasoned to in the same way as you would falsify the story that is why god is eternal and created because he does not obey these laws we do that is why any reveltation has to be an instrument of spirit and not mind because the purpose of sikhism is enlightenment not good and bad deeds and morality.


"Something that is not in concordance with logic is deemed illogical."

It is wrong from a logical point of view but it is not untrue because truth in my perception has a different definition.
Regards[/QUOTE]


Thanks,

ISDhillon

 

[Mohsin]

Satrsriakal Moss Ji:brother:

Only a direct revelation from god can agree with all times,

Yes, this is Islam, a revelation to Muhammed SAW for all times

I havent quite understood your answer. You said Sikhism is the most righteous. Now if you were born a non-sikh, would you convert to Sikhism, would you be able to tell it is the most righteous, because that would be using logic, and you are against logic right?

 

[unbreakable]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.

I'll attempt to reply to a more than one post in one post

Ok I owe you an apology, I see what you are talking about now.
No it is not what Allah teaches us, there is a verse in the Qur'an which says to argue and debate with wisdom and beautiful preaching. I think the bro that started convo was just asking around for good arguments to use against sikhs, if others knew of anything, and since no sikhs were in the forum at the time, it seemed one way.

Thank you, apology accepted. But at the same time, you cannot be held accountable for your foolish brothers and sisters.

We dont believe in Sikhs as a divine religion. As far as i am aware nothing is mentioned in the Qur'an, but in the Hadith of the Prophet SAW, he has said there will arise future false prophets. That is our view of the gurus who claimed to be at one with God

however i can ask you, where Does the SGGS talk about the other semetic Prophets PBUT?

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji or Guru Ji as I like to call him, is our spiritual guide, Sat Guru (True Guru), Guru as you know is a sanskrit word which means to lead from the darkness into the light, The light in this case is Waheguru, Allah. Guru ji does talk about alot of Bhagats (Saints) soley for the purpose of showing the world that these people experienced, reached their goal, which is Waheguru.

Everybody is divine. you, me, your parents, my parents. Everybody is part of that ocean known as Waheguru, we are just droplets who are not Jagrat (awake).

Guru Ji does mention Adam, or as we call him Baba Adam, but this is to show the world, that Adam stayed in paradise whilst he was under the will of God, when he went against God, he was as we know kicked out. (It is not said in so many words, but I believe even the verses in the Qu'ran require a explanation).

Guru Ji's message can be summed up as follows, this is what the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji opens with.

"...
ik-oNkaar sat naam kartaa purakh nirbha-o nirvair akaal moorat ajoonee saibhaN gur parsaad.

One Universal Creator God. The Name Is Truth. Creative Being Personified. No Fear. No Hatred. Image Of The Undying, Beyond Birth, Self-Existent. By Guru's Grace
..."

The remaining "pages" of the Guru Granth Sahib Ji is a further expansion on these "verses" if you will.

The main emphasis as you can see is on Waheguru, Allah, Rahim, Bhagwan..etc. Whatever you want to call Waheguru. Nobody but God knows Gods name, we all know that. In this Iron Age, Waheguru is the Gurumantra for the Sikhs, but there are many other names which God goes by. I believe that there is a sword in the muslim world which has 100 names of God, but the 1st is blank, which tells you that God is beyond names. I know that according to the qu'ran, Allah gave himself Allah as his name. Correct me if I am wrong.

What about other prophets. Guru Ji, tells his sikhs to live a Truthful life, with Honest hard work and to share what you have with those who are less fortunate and to chant, meditate on Waheguru.

The main emphasis is to better your life..

Guru Ji gives advise and examples to Hindus, Muslims and to many other faiths how they "SHOULD" be living their lives as opposed to how they think they are.

So it is understood that the Guru of the Sikhs is the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

We have three other Scriptures aswell, from which my brothers here have have quoted from, in one these scriptures Guru Ji in his Ten form as Maharaj Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji talks about other prophets and how they lost their way and sunk deeper into their own agenda's.

Of course you shall not believe these, that is your right. I understand that.

Brother, no matter what you or your brothers or sisters, or even scholars say, for the Sikhs this is not going to change, the same goes for you aswell.

You can also come to my house and mosque, islam dosn't forbid this

I was talking about the Kabba. But thanks, you can come to my home aswell. We can have a cha-da-cup.

Because God has said only people following his true way, the natural way of fitra he prescribed to Abraham AS. It is a pure land saved only for true worship of God, by true worship i mean something god has actually prescribed, not something that has come from man. As muslims we believe Sikh rituals are man made and not from God, so they are false worship, so in a pure land such as Mecca there is only room for true pure worship. Obviously you are going to disagree with my explanation, since you don't believe Sikhism is false worship, but i only gave you the muslim reason, i hope you understand it

I understand and I respect you for your belief.

The Kabba is only forbidden to non-muslims because during the early stages of Islam, the pagan worshippers or enemies of the prophet used to knock it down. So once it was fortified (if you look at it, it is built as a fortress, as are all historical Gurdwarey), once it was fortified, to stop it being knocked down, the prophet only allowed Muslims, as this would ensure that it shall not be attacked. (I have confirmed this with 5 different practising muslims)

The Golden Temple has been levelled 3 times I believe since it was constructed, each time, by our Muslim brothers. But did Guru Ji forbid all but the Sikhs to come and offer prayer. NO. Thus in my eyes, this is the true house of God. Thats why when going to Darbar Sahin, you walk down, so that it is easy for people to walk (gravity). Thats why Darbar Sahib has four doors, to the north, east, east and south, an invitation to all of humanity to come under the True House of God and offer prayers as brothers and sisters, not as enemies.

The Sikhs believe that only Gods way is True. Sat. Everything else, buildings, everything is temporary, Asat. not True.

Can you give examples of Sikh rituals?

Well you agree to say that Sikhism is the ultimate religion right?

Now what would happen if you weren't born into Sikhism, but instead say you were born a Mormon, and brought up to believe like some mormons believe that blacks are cursed.
Would you continue this worship? even though it defies your logic? Because God would never prescribe for us such a thing, to say blacks are inferior

What if you were born as a Buddhist? I am surprise that you would ask a stupid question, but I'll answer it.

Sikhism is not a religion. It is a way of life. It is Gods way. Everything in Sikhism makes sense. As its only about God and nothing else. When God wants you to walk on his path, he shall send you one of his slaves. i.e. Siri Singh Sahib Yogi Bhajan. i.e. www.Sikhnet.com

So what would lead you to Sikhism? Do you guys think, honestly now, that you would become Sikhs had you not be born into that religion? What proofs or miracles does the SGGS provide. See with me i honestly believe insha'allah i'd become a muslim regardless of how i was born, because simple logic would lead me to this, there are so many truths and miracles provided for by islam. But you deny logic, so does that mean you wouldn't become a Sikh? because if you say you would why would you? Either way you'd have to admit logic is in existence for us to see the right religion from the wrong religion

What would lead a buddhist to Islam?

I am, like I said before, thankful to God that I am blessed with my faith. I believe that eventually I would have ended up being a Sikh, its so damn good. Everything makes sense. Akaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaal

Miracles? What is it with Muslims and Miracles? Do I need to pull a sheep out of my bag to convince you? (just joking)

Sikhs believe that you should lead by example and not by miracles.

I tell you of this one event in Sikh history and this is documented.

The Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, before being elevated to the position of Guru was known as the "Adi Granth". Guru Nanak, in his fifth form as Guru Arjan Dev Ji had complied it. It was complete.

During Guru Gobind Singhs Ji's time, the Adi Granth was stolen by a corrupt Hindu with the help of the muslim rulers, they posed a challenge to the Guru, stating, "You say that you are ten but one, ten forms but one Jot (soul), then you don't need this, for you can write it again".

Now The Sikhs believe that Guru Nanak Dev Ji is still with us, in the form of the Shabad Guru. The Jot (light/soul) of Guru Nanak Dev Ji went from one sucessor to another (please no stupid questions okay, just sit, read and pay attention).

So he stole the Adi Granth, the scripture of the Sikh. They said if you are all one jot, then you don't need this.

Well Guru Gobind Singh Ji with Bhai Mani Singh, dectated all 1430 pages of the Adi Granth. Word for word, comma for comma..etc..etc.

This has been verified, as the stolen Adi Granth was later recovered and compared by Sikh Scholars, this proving that this is Gods word.

You might call this a miracle, I call this Guru Ji's Hukam.

Of course you shall not believe this. Guess what. Its completely fine with us, we will loose no sleep at all, as you are entitled to follow your faith. We respect that and just as Guru TeghBahadur done, we shall defend your right if the need arses.

Again, people stop copy and pasting verses from Guru Ji and the qu'ran.
Lets just talk.

I believe Moss said, none of us here are Scholars or saints. We all are Sikhs, yes all of us are Sikhs (students) and want to learn about Allah. For nothing exists without Waheguru.

Again, no slandering, mocking, tit for tat rubbish. Lets present out thoughts, if we agree, then great, if we disagree, then hey may Waheguru bless us with more wisedom.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.

I am just touching on the surface here, if I go deeper, I'm afraid that you shall not understand, so if you have any further questions, please email me here [email protected].

ps. Dhillion, Amardeep, remember Sidh Gohst, when Guru Nanak Dev Ji debated with the bramins. haha. Amazing.

 

[unbreakable]

Yes, this is Islam, a revelation to Muhammed SAW for all times

I havent quite understood your answer. You said Sikhism is the most righteous. Now if you were born a non-sikh, would you convert to Sikhism, would you be able to tell it is the most righteous, because that would be using logic, and you are against logic right?

Again, the same goes for you. This is a paradox and based on an assumption.;D

 

[Mohsin]

No like i said earlier, i honestly believe if i saw islam and life in general from a logical perspective, atking into account all the miracles that occur in the Qur'an http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/13998-prove-quran-word-god.html, i believe i would convert to islam, with God's will
Islam urges us in the Qur'an to apply logic and reasoning, to see the truth
It is evident that this happens anyway, with all the people that are converting to Islam all the time

Sikhism, from what Dillon tells me (plz correct me if i'm wrong, i do get confused by his posts), says Sikhism is above logic, and you are only born into religions, and whichever religion you are born into is right. Therefore i asked if he wasn't born into Sikhism, would he still become a Sikh and apply logic to see the truth? Or would he be happy to live a false way of life even though it is "less righteous"

 

[ISDhillon]

Satsriakal Aisha Ji,


“is hinduism and sikhism th same or r they jus very similar
thanks”

The fundamental differences: The way I have always understood it is that in sikhism we acknowledge the existence of deities but we do not worship or evoke them. We believe that the gurshabad which is the word of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is what we need to attune our concentration to because the word is god and has never left us. We believe that without the word you cannot acheive salvation because only revealed source can reveal the ultimate reality within, and then comes the next difference that in sikhism we do not believe that the soul become immersed in the lord but that we recognise a one-ness in spirit with the lord ie, we remain a seperate identity in salvation. The other difference is that we strongly believe in temporal authority of khalsa because we do not believe in land boundaries we believe that man is a sovereign being and therefore it comes from you as an individual it does not matter if their is a perceived ruler each man and women is a leader and therefore when people understand this we will have ekta - oneness of humanity. And in reality all religions share similarities we are all sikhs christians hindus and jews etc etc dont get caught in the rut known as identity because it gives birth to ego and jealousy. Sorry if I have offended,

ISDhillon


Dear Moss Ji:?


“Now if you were born a non-sikh, would you convert to Sikhism, would you be able to tell it is the most righteous, because that would be using logic, and you are against logic right?”

if I was born a non-sikh I would not be able to convert to Sikhism unless I learned gurmukhi and did path from sri guru granth sahib ji then I would learn that whilst I did not fully understand the words their was something powerful, however if I started learning about another faith I would have to use my logic to first verify scriptural truth and then and only then could one call me a muslim, Christian jew etc, but Sikhism is above all those. Let me also tell you that all I have learned about Sikhism for me did not come from secondary sources I grew to love gurbani so much that sometimes I would lie in bed all night and listen to path and gurbani its like when you first fall in love you remember how powerfully you are drawn in by the word. I do however now read scholarary interpretation of religious text but then I am not practicing my religion I know my religion is the most righteous because I have never doubted it nor does any part of religion go against the norms of this time or my individual conscience I never needed logic to figure that out. There are 2 issues here moss ji firstly god transcends rationality, secondly practicing Sikhism is not a course of study it’s about meditating on the word, finally I have no qualm with scholarary interpretation of all religions in isolation but not as a way of practicing faith. Because I live by conscience I don’t need a book on telling me how I should live my life. I really hope you get it this time. And no I don’t and will never believe your religion is for all time in the wake of sikhi all notions of totalitarian islam are destroyed be humble and accept this otherwise you will not have ekta, even when you go to prayer you will be divided, embrace diversity.


“Sikhism, from what Dillon tells me (plz correct me if i'm wrong, i do get confused by his posts), says Sikhism is above logic, and you are only born into religions, and whichever religion you are born into is right. Therefore i asked if he wasn't born into Sikhism, would he still become a Sikh and apply logic to see the truth? Or would he be happy to live a false way of life even though it is "less righteous"”


I cant believe this you still don’t get it are you doing this on purpose? I have already answered these questions but they keep resurfacing. God is above logic. Sri guru granth sahib ji ia all about god therefore you cannot say that there are contradiction in sri guru granth sahib ji because god transcends rationality, do you get it now? If I was born as a muslim I probably would be arguing for a falsification test because both our doctrines differ, do you get it now?

Here read some more quotes:

"Make thy mind thy Mecca and make thy body thy temple of worship. This soul, the speaker is the Supreme Guru. O Maulvi, then utter thou the call to prayer. The one body mosque has ten doors. Slay thou thy wrath, doubt and malice and consume thine five demons. Thus thou shalt be blest with contentment. The Hindus and the Muslims have the same One Lord. For man, what can the Maulvi do and what can the Sheikh do?" (Bhagat Kabir, Bhairo, pg. 1158)


"The Hindu is blind and the Muslim is one-eyed. The Lord divine is the wiser of the two. The Hindu worships at the temple and the Muslim at the mosque. Namdev serves that Lord, who has neither a temple nor a mosque." (Bhagat Namdev, Gond, pg. 875)


"All the Vedas, the religious books of the Muslims, the Simirtis and Shashtras, by reading these, salvation is not obtained. He who by Guru's instruction utters the one Name; He gathers the pure glory." (Guru Arjan Dev, Suhi, pg. 747)


"One man shaves off and calls himself a sanyasin, another passes for a yogi or a celibate. One calls himself a Hindu, another a Turk, one a Shia, another a Sunni, but know ye, men all over are the same. He alone is the Creator of both Hindus and Muslims, the Compassionate One, the Allah, our great Giver: nay, know not another, for there is not another. So serve they all the One alone: for He the One is the only God of us all: it is His Form, His Light that is diffused in all." (Guru Gobind Singh, Kabitas 71-90, Akal Ustati)


"A Muslim understands the Muslim way of life and a Hindu the Vedas and Puranas. To instruct his mind, man ought to study Divine Knowledge to some extent. I know only the One Lord, who is the source of everything. I believe not in him, whom the Lord writes (creates) and erases (destroys). If someone sees the One Lord, he perishes not by beholding Him." (Bhagat Kabir, Gauri, pg. 340)


"If God abides only in the mosque, then to whom else does the rest of the country belong? According to Hindus the Lord's Name, abides in the idol, but, I see not truth in both. O my Lord God, I live by Thy Name. O my Master, show Thou mercy unto me. The God of Hindus dwells in the southern land and the God of Muslims has His seat in the west. Search thou in thy mind, yea, search thou in the heart of thy mind, for this alone is the only abode and seat of thy God." (Bhagat Kabir, Parbhati, pg. 1349)


"The Muslims praise the Islamic law and they read and reflect upon it. According to them the Lord's servants are only they, who fall in captivity (of orthodoxy of Islamic law) to see His sight. The Hindus praise the Praiseworthy God, when they see in many beauteous form. They bathe at holy places, make flower offerings and spread the perfume of eagle-wood before idols. The yogis that there are meditate on the Absolute Lord and name the Creator as Unseen....Like the above, depart after eating here, what they had. Have they thus done any good deeds?" (Guru Nanak, Slok, pg. 465)


"The temple or the mosque are the same, the Hindu worship or the Musalman prayer are the same; all men are the same; it is through error they appear different. Deities, demons, Yakshas, heavenly singers, Musalmans and Hindus adopt the customary dress of their different countries. All men have the same eyes, the same ears, the same body, the same build, a compound of earth, air, fire, and water. All and Abhekh are the same, the Purans and the Quran are the same; they are all alike; it is the one God who created all. The Hindu God and the Muhammadan God are the same; let no man even by mistake suppose there is a difference." (Guru Gobind Singh, Akal Ustat, pg. 275)



Gurfateh!:thankyou:

ISDhillon