Survey reveals Muslim attitudes

[crayon]

^The problem is not with the muslim immigrants, it is with European society.
You have the same kind people from the same backgrounds immigrating to either North America or Europe. The ones that go to North America have relatively less problems in society than the muslims in Europe... So to me it seems like the problem is coming from the culture and beliefs of Europeans, rather than the muslim immigrants. There is something about their way of life/ideas/beliefs that causes friction with muslims, in comparison to that of North Americans.

 

[Muezzin]

Generally speaking, I'd say forget polls and statistics; go out and meet some actual muslims in person. Engage with them....over a bucket of (halaal) chicken.

Honestly, you cannot go wrong!

Unless the non-Muslim person is a vegan.

I'd be kinda stumped as to what to feed this person. Unless we took a trip to the nearest fruit and veg shop.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

^The problem is not with the muslim immigrants, it is with European society.
You have the same kind people from the same backgrounds immigrating to either North America or Europe. The ones that go to North America have relatively less problems in society than the muslims in Europe... So to me it seems like the problem is coming from the culture and beliefs of Europeans, rather than the muslim immigrants. There is something about their way of life/ideas/beliefs that causes friction with muslims, in comparison to that of North Americans.

That is true, what's alos true is that Europan Muslims are mainly poor immigrants or their descendants who came to Europe as cheap labor force, whereas it was significantly harder to immigrate to the US, it still is actually.

 

['Abd-al Latif]

Brother, only an idiot can expect a fish to live without water.

But if muslims are fishes, and shariyah laws are like water to them, than its really amazing that fishes choose to live without water. Have a look of Islamic nations for example.

No one need to expect muslims to live with anything except islamic laws, they have willingly abandoned laws of ALLAH, and replaced it with kufr laws. U need to check out for hard realities regarding muslims.

Doesnt they say that charity starts at home?

What more? See poor talibs being bombed in swat Pakistan alongwith innocent civilians just becoz they wanted to implement shariyah laws? Do U doubt religious identity of bombers?

Similar questions to this have been answered by me and many other members of the forum.

Islamic Law isn't abandoned by Muslims it's abandoned by puppet governments in the Muslim world which are selected by and for the western governments. Don't tell me what Muslims do or don't want because i'm a Muslim my self so I speak on behalf of the Muslims, and as for your claim of muslims abandoning the laws of Allah is your own lonely opinion. You need to face facts that Muslims are pushing for Shari'a, and as far as taliban is concerned, don't fool yourself with the media headlines. Just let the time pass and you'll see the results yourself just like every arrogant fool who thinks god is incompetent.

They desire to put out the light of Allah with their mouths but Allah will perfect His light, though the unbelievers may be averse. [As-Saaf (The Ranks, Battle Aray) 61:08]

This light Allah is talking about is Islam.

And by the way, I aint your brother.

 

['Abd-al Latif]

If you'd followed the link you would see that I got the quote from this forum and it was posted by forum member Alpha Jr. I would also like to know how two polls come up with different results, it could just be simply different questions although it's difficult to get my head around 82% supporting loyalty to the country whilst 20% sympathies with suicide bombers, but then 80/20 does fit the maths?

My point has always been the same as before. I just want you to make a judgement from what you've seen of Islam and Muslims while being on this forum compared to most of the junk we all see around the internet as well as the on TV. We are human beings as well and we do sympathise with those who have undergone harm for no apparent reason.

It just puzzles me why it would occur ever so often to you that Muslims are barbaric and oppressive. That's what i've noticed from most of your posts.

 

[justahumane]

Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
Similar questions to this have been answered by me and many other members of the forum.

But none of the answer is credible enough which can do justice with the question why muslim over the world have abandoned Islamic laws and opted for man made laws.

Islamic Law isn't abandoned by Muslims it's abandoned by puppet governments in the Muslim world which are selected by and for the western governments

Brother, I wont use the decent word "fool urself", instead I will say plz dont be misguided by puppet government myth being spread by so called muslims. U are just trying to make me digest the undigestibile logic 1.4 billlion poor muslims want to live under shariyah but their government dont obilige them. Sounds cheaply funny. Will U like to enlighten us how those poor shariyah-loving muslims are being forced to devour riba by their respective puppet governments? At gunpoint or some other way? Here make it clear that I m not talking about all muslims, but majority of them who call the shots, who are at war with ALLAH, and whom U are trying to defend.

Don't tell me what Muslims do or don't want because i'm a Muslim my self so I speak on behalf of the Muslims, and as for your claim of muslims abandoning the laws of Allah is your own lonely opinion.

Brother U are a pious muslims unlike most of ur bretherns, so U think that all of them are like urself, but U are balantly wrong about them. And it doesnt matter that truth is being spoken by masses or by one person, truth remains truth anyhow. And truth of the moment is that its Muslims themselves who have abandoned laws of ALLAH, had they honestly wanted to live under shariyah laws, there was no reason that ALLAH would not have helped them against all the western influence U are talking about. U may believe otherwise if U wish.

You need to face facts that Muslims are pushing for Shari'a, and as far as taliban is concerned, don't fool yourself with the media headlines. Just let the time pass and you'll see the results yourself just like every arrogant fool who thinks god is incompetent.

Brother U need to face hard reality that today a whopping majority of muslims are against implementation of shariyah, and they use foolish logics to justify their stand, like western governments angle. Regarding Talibaan, plz eleborate what U want to say about them. How I m fooling myself(Thanks for ur decency anyways). And its not me who believe that ALLAH is incompetent, its those so called muslims who stage the drama of reciting holy quran everyday and make it sure that they maintain the distance from its commands. How pathetic, isnt it?

And by the way, I aint your brother.

Brother to U is ur religion and to me is mine. We will do and behave according to our respective religions. ALLAH will judge the rest. I hope U cant afford to differ, or can U?

 

[Strzelecki]

The surprising part part is that this will come as a surprise to your general xenophobe and no one else.

*Yawn*

 

[Uthman]

I agree with you, I believe that greater tolerance and harmony would come with more integration but it seems that the Muslims in the UK want to live amongst their kind and I don't mean other Muslims, I mean other people from their country of origin. They each want to create their own mini Pakistan or Somalia rather than integrate. There's is also a nasty comment put about that integration is akin to assimilation like the assimilation seen in Star Trek by the Borg. Sad

Resistance is futile?

Seriously though, it's unfair to generalise like that.

 

[Uthman]

Comment by Shelina Zahra Janmohamed:

Muslims: beyond the caricature

The Muslim attitudes survey reveals a loyal community, keen on integration – far from the usual stereotypes.

My British glass is half empty. According to a Gallup poll released yesterday, only half of the UK population identifies itself as very strongly British. And in Germany only 32% of the general public feels that way about being German. Who then identifies most strongly with their nation, reaching a whopping 77% in the UK? Muslims.

This refreshing piece of information is part of a wider picture that Gallup paints of a European Muslim population that is more tolerant and integrated, as well as more strongly identified with Europe's nations than other communities. It is an excellent and much-needed study, capable of informing the ongoing debate about the situation and place of Muslims in Europe.

The report investigates the usual allegations levelled at Muslims. It establishes that religiosity is no indicator of support for violence against civilians and that in the UK and Germany Muslims are more likely to state that violence is not justified for a noble cause than the general public.

This vital information needs to be channelled immediately into policy, where Muslims are only ever seen through the prism of violent extremism and are falsely considered to be predisposed to violence when in fact the opposite is the case.

The idea that Muslims want to live in isolated "ghettos" is also untrue. Muslims are in fact more likely to want to live in a neighbourhood that has a mix of ethnic and religious people: 67% of Muslims vs 58% of the general public in the UK, 83% vs 68% in France.

Muslims also believe that it is nonreligious actions that will lead to integration – language, jobs, education. For example, over 80% of Muslims in the UK, France and Germany believe that mastering the local language is critical.

Whilst both the general and the Muslim populations believe these things are essential for integration, these are the areas where Muslims are found to be disproportionately struggling. They have lower levels of employment and lower standards of living. For our public discourse and for government, this is where the focus needs to be and funding need to be applied.

The really worry is the gulf between how Muslims see their integration into society and how the wider population sees them. Some 82% of British Muslims say they are loyal to Britain. Only 36% of the general population believe British Muslims are loyal to the country.

This has its roots in misinformation and miscommunication across society and means we all need to work hard to dissipate the dark cloud of fear that hangs above our heads. The Gallup report points to other countries like Senegal, Sierra Leone and South Africa which have a very high level of tolerance and integration across society and suggests that this may be a result of governments that actively promote religious tolerance, recognise multiple religious traditions in official holidays and national celebrations and enshrine religious freedoms in the constitution.

As a British Muslim woman who wears the headscarf, I was particularly proud to see that in Britain the headscarf is seen positively. When asked what qualities it was associated with, a third said confidence and courage, and 41% said freedom. Some 37% said it enriched European culture.

Instead of building on the platform for understanding and communication that this report brings, the mainstream media coverage has sensationalised the report by reducing it to one thing: Muslim opinions about sexual relationships.

To be sure, Muslims are indeed more conservative than the general population, but this is perhaps a trait shared with other religious communities. In fact, the areas which concern Muslims are in some cases those that we find socially contentious anyway: pornography, abortion, suicide, homosexuality and extra-marital relations.

French Muslims appear to be more "liberal" with regards to sexual mores than German or British Muslims. This is a red herring. It does not necessarily mean that they have "more integrated" sexual attitudes. All it seems to reflect are broader views on sexuality in those countries. For example, the French public considers married men and women having an affair far more morally acceptable than Brits or Germans, and this difference is reflected in the Muslim population across all three countries.

The danger in focusing on sexuality as a litmus test of integration is that in turns this into a one-issue debate. The point here is that it is that it is completely irrelevant to a discussion of integration and a happily functioning society, where mutual respect and understanding for each others moral codes – whether we agree or not – ought to be the foundations for a shared vision of a shared society. We see this in the statistics about homosexuality: it's true that no Muslims in the UK found this to be morally acceptable (though there is a 5% margin of error for Muslims across all the statistics in the report). However, this needs to be seen in context of the fact that Muslims are more respectful of those different to themselves than the general British public. The important point here is not that we should have homogeneous social and moral attitudes, but that we can respect and live with those who hold opinions at different ends of that spectrum.

The message is this: we should use this report to silence those who spread hate once and for all. We need to move on from the monochromatic discussions of loyalty being either to the state or to religion, discussions that force a choice between "my way or the highway".

Our glass is actually more than half full. There is much hard work to be done, and many aspects of economic and social policy that need to be addressed, but the status quo offers all of us much hope for an integrated future. It is a future that can be built on the evidence before us of ample scope for dialogue and understanding.

Source

Shelina Zahra Janmohamed is a writer on British Islam and author of Love in a Headscarf.

 

[Muezzin]

I agree with you, I believe that greater tolerance and harmony would come with more integration but it seems that the Muslims in the UK want to live amongst their kind and I don't mean other Muslims, I mean other people from their country of origin. They each want to create their own mini Pakistan or Somalia rather than integrate.

I suppose you extend this same disdain to the Chinatowns and the Little Italys and the Mini Polands throughout the world.

The surprising part part is that this will come as a surprise to your general xenophobe and no one else.

*Yawn*

Your general xenophobe wouldn't accept it if even 100% of Muslims swore fealty to the Western countries in which they live.

Luckily, impressing xenophobes is not the object of a Muslim's life.

 

[Thinker]

I suppose you extend this same disdain to the Chinatowns and the Little Italys and the Mini Polands throughout the world.


Your general xenophobe wouldn't accept it if even 100% of Muslims swore fealty to the Western countries in which they live.

Luckily, impressing xenophobes is not the object of a Muslim's life.

I’ll say it again . . . I believe that greater tolerance and harmony would come with more integration but it seems that the Muslims in the UK want to live amongst their kind and I don't mean other Muslims, I mean other people from their country of origin. They each want to create their own mini Pakistan or Somalia rather than integrate. I struggle to see how you can find fault in anything I have said there. You should look at yourself before you throw around terms such as disdain and xenophobe. With regards to Britain can I know what you want for yourself and for your children and their children and their children?

I agree that there are other non Muslim nationalities which have congregated in certain areas, I’ll agree it albeit that I don’t know of any although I can vaguely remember certain parts of London having a concentration of certain nationalities. In terms of numbers and the degree to which they integrate or not they are insignificant compared the places like Leicester, Bradford and parts of Birmingham. The Italians you speak of that came after the second world war have integrated, the second generation Chinese have integrated, if the Poles are here 50 years from now they will have integrated. None of these groups are returning back to they country of their parents for a wife. All of the children of these groups give their allegiance to Britain.

 

[Muezzin]

I’ll say it again . . . I believe that greater tolerance and harmony would come with more integration but it seems that the Muslims in the UK want to live amongst their kind and I don't mean other Muslims, I mean other people from their country of origin. They each want to create their own mini Pakistan or Somalia rather than integrate.

Way to miss the point.

I say again 'I suppose you extend this same disdain to the Chinatowns and the Little Italys and the Mini Polands throughout the world.'

I struggle to see how you can find fault in anything I have said there.

You seem to be unfairly focusing on Muslim communities when other communities do the same.

I personally don't think there's anything particularly wrong with the Little Italys and Chinatowns and Mini Polands.

You should look at yourself before you throw around terms such as disdain and xenophobe.

Please climb off your high-horse. Or chimp.

With regards to the word 'disdain', given that you've repeatedly stated all around this forum how concerned you are about the 'Mini Somalias' and 'Mini Pakistans' popping up around the UK, I thought that word was a fair description of your attitude towards this matter. If it is unfair, I apologise.

With regards to the word 'xenophobe', I was clearly replying to this post:

The surprising part part is that this will come as a surprise to your general xenophobe and no one else.

*Yawn*

I was clearly using the word 'xenophobe' in reply to this. I fail to see how you appear to have construed this to be a personal attack on you or otherwise objectionable.

With regards to Britain can I know what you want for yourself and for your children and their children and their children?

Tolerant, peace, success and loads of pizza. What would you like?

I agree that there are other non Muslim nationalities which have congregated in certain areas, I’ll agree it albeit that I don’t know of any although I can vaguely remember certain parts of London having a concentration of certain nationalities.

Yes.

In terms of numbers and the degree to which they integrate or not they are insignificant compared the places like Leicester, Bradford and parts of Birmingham.

Your point being?

The Italians you speak of that came after the second world war have integrated, the second generation Chinese have integrated, if the Poles are here 50 years from now they will have integrated.

Lovely crystal ball. Where'd you get it?

And I don't like this nasty undercurrent where you're suggesting that second and third generation Muslims have not integrated. You have no evidence to back this up, no facts, no figures, no anecdotes. Just an axe to grind.

To you, what constitutes integration? Paying taxes? Obeying the law? Generally not making a nuisance of yourself? What?

None of these groups are returning back to they country of their parents for a wife.

Wow, given that you just implied you don't have much knowledge of areas with high ethnic minorities, I'm amazed that you know so much about their wedding habits.

Besides, Chinese students who come to the UK to study tend to emigrate back to China for work. And they're really nice, really intelligent people.

Also, I'm not sure I like your implication that Muslim groups return 'to the country of their parents for a wife'.

Firstly, what business is it of yours where anyone decides to find a spouse?

Secondly, why is the fact that some people do go back 'to the country of their parents' necessarily a bad thing?

All of the children of these groups give their allegiance to Britain.

Nice, scientific reasoning there. I suppose you have facts and figures to back your opinion up about these groups of people you've never met. Because at the moment, in a thread whose point is to show that in many countries Muslims are more loyal than their non-Muslim countrymen, you truly appear as if you have an agenda against Muslims in Britain.

But the real question is which loyalty comes first, god or country. Would they turn against their country and fellow citizens if they thought their God told them to. Isn't that was the europeans fear about the muslims?

If 'my' God tells me, directly and personally, to turn against my country and fellow citizens, or to do anything else for that matter, I will quite gladly have myself committed.

What a silly question.

 

[Thinker]

Way to miss the point.
With regards to the word 'disdain', given that you've repeatedly stated all around this forum how concerned you are about the 'Mini Somalias' and 'Mini Pakistans' popping up around the UK, I thought that word was a fair description of your attitude towards this matter. If it is unfair, I apologise.

Thinking this through, I clearly didn’t think it through too well as the other major group who don’t integrate in the UK are Indians and they are not Muslim. So I conclude that the reluctance to integrate is cultural and wonder whether the cultural influence that binds both Indian and Pakistani is their reluctance to integrate is their propensity towards marrying relatives.

 

[memories]

To you what comes first, country or justice.

It depends on the notion you have of justice.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

To you what comes first, country or justice.

What about when in Rome do as the Romans do?

 

[aamirsaab]

What about when in Rome do as the Romans do?

Rome was one city. Britain is 4 countries so apples and oranges argument. 'Sides, the only thing muzzies aren't doing that the ''romans'' are amount to:

drinking
gambling
commiting adultery

Even then, some ''romans'' don't perform the above, which brings me onto the next point: British culture is an amalgamation of many cultures - which one in particular should muslims conform to? Scottish? Welsh? Irish? English? Is it a mixture, if so what weighting? Which ones in particular? What exactly do muslims need to do in order to integrate? Need to be very specific about this.

Also, in conforming to one/many of those cultures, does that mean muslims have to completely abolish their own cultural norms, which would be eliminating their freedoms? Take into account the UK is secularist ''free'' country.

Is it truly the path of integration that some people want muslims to walk? Or is it assimilation, because there is a big difference between the two.

p.s; the points made in this post are not directed at any one particular individual.

 

[MO783]

Allah knows Best

 

[Whatsthepoint]

Rome was one city. Britain is 4 countries so apples and oranges argument. 'Sides, the only thing muzzies aren't doing that the ''romans'' are amount to:

drinking
gambling
commiting adultery

Even then, some ''romans'' don't perform the above, which brings me onto the next point: British culture is an amalgamation of many cultures - which one in particular should muslims conform to? Scottish? Welsh? Irish? English? Is it a mixture, if so what weighting? Which ones in particular? What exactly do muslims need to do in order to integrate? Need to be very specific about this.

Also, in conforming to one/many of those cultures, does that mean muslims have to completely abolish their own cultural norms, which would be eliminating their freedoms? Take into account the UK is secularist ''free'' country.

Is it truly the path of integration that some people want muslims to walk? Or is it assimilation, because there is a big difference between the two.

p.s; the points made in this post are not directed at any one particular individual.

They needn't abandon their culture, they need to accept other ones, all in the spirit of secular democracy and multiculturalism and yes I agree that Britain today is diverse, but an Islamic state would mean exactly the opposite.
You can't give multiculturalism to people who wish to abolish it as soon as they get to power.
Tht is assuming Muslims want an Islamic state and will become the majority.

 

[Foxhole]

From BBC

The survey is lame. It's full of softball questions that don't get to the heart of the matter (I mean, "Do you support terrorist attacks on civiilans? No? Hey, that's terrific!"), or focus on areas where there has been strife.

From this survey, who can tell me the percentages of Muslims who believe that a Muslim should be able to convert to another faith?

From this survey, who can tell me the percentage of Muslims who believe that a nation with a large enough Muslim population should have laws for Muslims and laws for non-Muslims?

From this survey, who can tell me the percentage of Muslims who believe that the offensive cartoons published in the Jyllands-Posten should be censored by law?

One interesting result:

Only 9% of British Muslims felt "integration" necessitates "accepting public comments they perceive as offensive about their faith or ethnicity". In other words, 91% of British Muslims feel that they can claim to be assimilated while "not accepting" offensive comments about Islam.

I think that's telling. Of course, as with the rest of this vague survey, what "accepting" means is not defined, when it could easily have been by asking specifically about freedom of speech.

So, a lame whitewash of the real issues. Again. Any time Muslims are surveyed, you can be sure the real core questions about coexistence between Islam and the west will not be asked.

 

[Muezzin]

What's stopping you conducting your own survey, Foxhole?