Taliban - The moral equivalent of America's founding fathers.

[Mustafa2012]

I don't think you realise just how ridiculous this suggestion is and I'm not going to waste any more time trying to explain it to you.

This thread has moved from praising the Taliban for stopping the opium trade (by beheading farmers) to claiming what a great bunch of guys they for growing the stuff so it can be used in western medicines.

Make up your mind which one you want to defend them for.

If you've got some credible evidence to back up your assumptions then it wouldn't be a waste of time, would it?

I think there's something else about the Taliban and Saddam Hussain that's worth mentioning.

The West couldn't give 2 hoots about the Taliban or Saddam Hussain just like they don't give 2 hoots about the 70,000+ people their puppet leader Assad has massacred in Syria.

If they really cared about the people, they would have intervened in Syria and Egypt when their other puppet leader Mubarak was killing his people as well.

What they invaded Iraq and Afghanistan for was the oil.

The reason why they helped the Libyans for was because of the rich air plane fuel and the reason why they instigated the revolution in Libya was because Gaddafi was about to start his own currency based on the gold and silver standards.

It would have been better for them just to have publicly admitted from the beginning that they were after the oil than to lie to the world just for their support in massacring hundreds and thousands of innocent Iraqis and Afghanis and raping their women, disrespecting the dead corpses and desecrating our Holy Books.

Due to the lies and brainwashing of your Zionist media machines, to this day many average western citizens think that the Iraq and Afghanistan war was justified.

If you really went to war to get rid of evil dictators then why steal their resources at the same time?

That is a conflict of interest just like Bush's company that supplied the army with resources was a conflict of interest.

How can you liberate a country by murdering hundreds and thousands of innocent citizens?

 

[جوري]

btw I don't understand why the opium thing is even a topic?
They can do whatever they please with their poppy even slather it on a bagel for all I care. It is their business, their country, their natural resurce.

n an internal memo sent on May 13, U.S. officials in Kabul complained about the Afghan government's failure to support a poppy eradication program. The charge of negligence was refuted by Hamid Karzai on Monday. Are poppies illegal all around the world? Where do poppy seeds come from?

Growing poppies is legal in some countries, with certain restrictions. The poppy seeds used in baking come from all over, but our two main sources are Turkey and the Netherlands. When you buy a bottle at your local store, chances are you're getting Dutch poppy seeds, which are a familiar blue-grey.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2005/05/if_you_cant_grow_poppies_.html

I'll ask Muslims to referain from explaning themselves to kaffirs. And Any kaffir with a grievance should try to fix the ill of his country first or at least burn history archives so all that's left is rose tinted 'moral high grounds' before daring to comment on the affairs of sovereign nations!

 

[Independent]

Take out your map and have a look at the large gas pipeline that runs through there as well the fortune in natural resources they're sitting on..

What pipeline?

 

[جوري]

Google image Afghanistan pipeline and read all about it not a difficult thing to do!

 

[Independent]

Google image Afghanistan pipeline and read all about it not a difficult thing to do!

Surely you are aware that the TAPI project was never built?

 

[جوري]

That's irrelevant - it should serve to highlight one of the motives of those oh so good 'moral high grounds' troops presence in the area.
It's always about looting, pillaging and control if we've to spell it out for ya!
Luckily the damage whether Russia before or the U.S now is too substantial for it to have been worth while at all and all praise is due to God that they're never successful in their missions!
All that's built on evil will perish even if it appears strong and powerful in the end it's nothing more than a paper tiger!

 

[Qurratul Ayn]

Now who in the Helmand Province have their camps there and use the domestic airport heavily and frequently? The British Camp Bastion, the U.S. Leatherneck camp and NATO-led forces.

The NATO forces (which are steadily withdrawing from Helmand) were concentrated there precisely because it is a Taliban stronghold. It's not credible that the Taliban are playing no part in this trade.

So they say, they'll get out of there by 2014, but they still haven't decided the size of American and NATO presence after 2014 on land but the airpower? Well, the Americans and NATO have decided to stay as they don't reckon the Afghans have an effective airforce, is it a Taliban stronghold anymore? Nope, not any more. There's bigger baddies in town. Plus I didn't write that the Taliban aren't part of this trade I wrote that the West also play a part in the opium distribution and reaping its disgusting financial rewards.

What, all of it is going to the Taliban? The Western camps don't take any? They don't use their facilities to distribute it around the world? They only use it for good? Pshhhhtttt...

This kind of random accusation is a waste of time. For the NATO forces or government, to be caught in such a trade means disaster, imprisonment, loss of office etc. The disincentives are huge, the rewards hard to hide. Whereas for the Taliban, they can do what they want and no one holds them to account.

Do you not understand the amount of power the Americans and NATO wield? As America is the strongest and most powerful country in this planet (apparently) they have that power and resources to transport opium around the world, as they heavily and frequently use the airport also to keep their activities under the radar, many of these forces have secret, elite forces within the army that carry out jobs and activities that are not known to the world. Like the Americans and NATO will share their every secret to the world, yeah right.

And guess what? Their camps are based near the airport too, so not only do reinforcements, armaments and whatnot fly to and fro Helmand Province, the mass distribution and even reproduction of the opium is more than within their limits, otherwise they have the force, weapons and money to eradicate majority of the offending drug but they won't as not only for medicinal purposes can opium be used but also the destruction of humans who are addicted to that monstrosity, and as I've mentioned before the financial gains are too hard for them to resist. So the possibility of the West not being part of the opium malarkey? Think again



Unfortunately, people out there have their eyes closed and minds narrowed, they NEED to open their eyes and broaden their minds... Keep the hope & faith alive

 

[Independent]

Google image Afghanistan pipeline and read all about it not a difficult thing to do!

You really didn't know, did you? Astonishing ignorance about something so central to your world view - and the whole foundation of the 9/11 conspiracy theory - yet you didn't even know it was never built. You ask me to look at drawings of lines on a map! It's a drawing!

The history of why the project was abandoned (and by the way TAPI was always a private consortium, not the US government) is even more entertaining. There was originally a deal agreed with TAPI and the the Taliban government. But then the embassy bombings (2 years before 9/11) put the Taliban on the blacklist so the project was impossible.

Of course, the theory is even crazier than that. These embassy bombings are also, in your crazy conspiracist view, black flag operations.

So the net result of this idiotic theory is that the US obstructed its own pipeline deal with the Taliban, which was all agreed and ready to go (free of charge, with no expensive and risky war) by launching some enormously risky blag flag operations.

Having ruined their own deal, they then have to stage another, even bigger operation (9/11) in order to get another government - simply to get back where they started with the Taliban!

And after all these years of occupation, which are now coming to an end, there is still no sign that the US troops are going to help this pipeline even get started.

This theory is long past its sell by date, please invent another.

 

[جوري]

Not sure what 'theory' you're driveling about? You spin a tabloid sized narrative out of your asphalt repeatedly and then go off crying to the mods after ensnaring members of what you allege to know of their beliefs and with such authority as we've already seen you demonstrate when it comes to medicinal use of alcohol or of western motives in the region!
Maybe one day you too can see though your own bull **** as the rest of us have!

So they say, they'll get out of there by 2014,

allegedly and with a Vatican sized embassy!

 

[Karl]

The Zionists will get out of Afghanistan when they get out of North America and the rest of their colonies...never.

 

[جوري]

They don't have to get out, they can simply die there!

 

[Mustafa2012]

You really didn't know, did you? Astonishing ignorance about something so central to your world view - and the whole foundation of the 9/11 conspiracy theory - yet you didn't even know it was never built. You ask me to look at drawings of lines on a map! It's a drawing!

The history of why the project was abandoned (and by the way TAPI was always a private consortium, not the US government) is even more entertaining. There was originally a deal agreed with TAPI and the the Taliban government. But then the embassy bombings (2 years before 9/11) put the Taliban on the blacklist so the project was impossible.

Of course, the theory is even crazier than that. These embassy bombings are also, in your crazy conspiracist view, black flag operations.

So the net result of this idiotic theory is that the US obstructed its own pipeline deal with the Taliban, which was all agreed and ready to go (free of charge, with no expensive and risky war) by launching some enormously risky blag flag operations.

Having ruined their own deal, they then have to stage another, even bigger operation (9/11) in order to get another government - simply to get back where they started with the Taliban!

And after all these years of occupation, which are now coming to an end, there is still no sign that the US troops are going to help this pipeline even get started.

This theory is long past its sell by date, please invent another.

I don't understand what your agenda is on this forum.

Whatever it is, there's no point coming here trying to rub salt into the wounds that Muslims have already experienced.

Your fellow men have done enough damage with their lies, deception, mass murder and genocides to name just a few of the evils they've inflicted on the Muslim world.

Not just the Muslim world but you're killing some of your own people and blaming it on Muslims. That is taking it a bit too far.

Your collective evils and murder of innocent lives far outnumber some of the mistakes that some ignorant Muslims have made. You put our crimes to shame.

It's just that your lying Zionist media machine is very good at manipulating the masses and bending the truth to make us look like we're the ones that the world needs to be worried about, when in fact it's your own leaders that the average person needs to be worried about.

If people really knew the true extent of what some of your leaders get away with on a daily basis they'd be ashamed.

If you've got nothing good to say, then just remain silent.

 

[Independent]

your wonderful leaders used

Your collective evils and murder of innocent lives far outnumber some of the mistakes that some ignorant Muslims have made. You put our crimes to shame.

1

It's very disappointing that you choose to personalise this. Effectively, you are making me at the least complicit in mass murder. Which is about as severe an accusation as it's possible to make - even though you know next to nothing about me.

One of the things you don't know about me is that none of these people are 'my' leaders anyway, because Ireland (where I live) is not a member of NATO or any other military alliance and we have been neutral since the beginning of the Free State. No Irish soldiers have ever served in Iraq or Afghanistan.

2

I read endlessly here about how western media can't be trusted, is controlled by Zionists etc. Sister Shaden tells us she knows better, she knows what's happening 'on the ground'. Yet her sources aren't so great. They don't seem to have noticed the complete absence of a gas pipeline that's supposed to be stretching several thousand kilometres across central Asia.

How wrong can you get?

You can find plenty about this pipeline on various Islamic blogs and websites. For instance, you can find a map that tries to show how the route matches up against NATO bases in Afghanistan etc. Yet, the pipeline doesn't exist.

You can even find a verbatim 'quote' from a US soldier in Afghanistan who complains about being sent to Afghanistan on a peace mission, yet ends up acting as security detail for building this same pipeline. Yet, still, the pipeline doesn't exist.

Someone is deliberately lying here. Someone is fabricating evidence. And in this case, it isn't the western media. If you can't get the easy stuff right, the stuff you can verify on the ground, what chance is there with anything else? Once this material gets into the complex world of Islamic websites it's there forever. People believe it simply because they read it so many places.

Strangest of all, the people who claim to be most sensitive to western 'media manipulation' seem to be entirely blind to the same techniques and strategies in their own alternative sources, such as the nakedly biased RT news (Putin's mouthpiece).

3.

Like most non-Muslims in Europe, although I oppose western participation in certain wars, I don't believe in a grand western conspiracy or secret war against Muslims. I was aware of 9/11 theories previously but until recently I thought they were similar to alien abduction/who shot JFK theories - ie crankish but mostly harmless.

I didn't realise how this theory had taken hold in many Muslim societies and had merged with a general sense of injustice, persecution, some genuine grievances, as well as frustration with modern Muslim governments and economic hardship. This has politicised it and gives it a huge real-world impact.

In theory, the idea seems to be that westerners are also victims of this mass deception (because their media is controlled etc). But in practice, the rhetoric is that westerners are all guilty anyway, whether we know what's going on or not. Anyone, including any Muslim, who argues against this gets condemned as having a secret 'agenda'. Just as you are doing here.

Genuine question - how can I or any other westerner ever 'undeclare' a war I didn't know I declared in the first place?

 

[جوري]

I read endlessly here about how western media can't be trusted, is controlled by Zionists etc. Sister Shaden tells us she knows better, she knows what's happening 'on the ground'. Yet her sources aren't so great. They don't seem to have noticed the complete absence of a gas pipeline that's supposed to be stretching several thousand kilometres across central Asia.

I've only ever seen you draw satisfaction out of overly simplistic conclusions!
I'd hate to repeat myself but the problem indeed lies with your reading comprehension and lack of three dimensional understanding - I can't decide if that's the sphere you naturally orbit or just under pretense but don't care either way!
Do try for some intellectual honesty if you wish to be viewed as something other than a paid net troll!
Even cheesy resources like wikipedia state:

The roots of this project lie in the involvement of international oil companies in Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan beginning of 1990s. As Russia, who controlled all export pipelines of these countries, consistently refusing to allow the use of its pipeline network, these companies needed an independent export route avoiding both Iran and Russia[SUP].

[/SUP]
Since the pipeline was to pass through Afghanistan, it was necessary to work with the Taliban. The U.S. ambassador to Pakistan, Robert Oakley, moved into CentGas in 1997. In January 1998, the Taliban, selecting CentGas over Argentinian competitor Bridas Corporation, signed an agreement that allowed the proposed project to proceed. In June 1998, Russian Gazprom relinquished its 10% stake in the project. On 7 August 1998, American embassies in Nairobi and Dar es Salaam were bombed under the direction of Osama bin Laden, and all pipeline negotiations halted, as the Taliban's leader, Mullah Mohammad Omar, announced that Osama bin Laden had the Taliban's support. Unocal withdrew from the consortium on 8 December 1998, and soon after closed its offices in Afghanistan and Pakistan.[SUP][citation needed][/SUP]
After September 11 attacks some conspiracy theorists claimed that possible motivation of the attacks include justifying the invasions of Afghanistan as well as geostrategic interests such as the Trans-Afghanistan Pipeline project.[SUP][8][/SUP] The new deal on the pipeline was signed on 27 December 2002 by the leaders of Turkmenistan, Afghanistan and Pakistan.[SUP][9][/SUP] In 2005, the Asian Development Bank submitted the final version of a feasibility study designed by British company Penspen. ‘Since the US-led offensive that ousted the Taliban from power,’ reported Forbes in 2005, "the project has been revived and drawn strong US support" as it would allow the Central Asian republics to export energy to Western markets "without relying on Russian routes

which explains both Russian and U.S interest in the region and I also recall writing in so many words that it doesn't matter what the warlords do, since Afghanistan has always been the graveyard of empires. They enter but they don't achieve their goals and die :ia:

Definitely not naivety since I have seen frank malice from your end - which is precisely way you've spoken in my voice with obvious conviction prior when you've no clue as to my beliefs religious or scientific and just prefer to waffle along as usual hoping if you flood us with enough BS it will take.
If your style had been slightly bit elegant and not straight out of your cubicle this might have been classified under slightly amusing!

Please quit referring to me as 'sister' I am no sister to you!

best,

 

[Independent]

Even cheesy resources like wikipedia state:

A huge improvement! This is the best informed post you've put up for some time. You should use Wikipedia more often.

As they say, the pipeline project has a long and chequered history. It's no closer to being built now than it was 15 years ago. For it to happen, it needs not just the signature of several presidents, but more importantly security the whole way along its immense distance. Even if Afghanistan were successfully secured by NATO troops (who are leaving anyway) it's supposed to pass through some of the least stable areas of Pakistan. There's no way you can defend the whole length of a pipeline that can be sabotaged at any point.

Even if Afghanistan and Pakistan could be trusted, would India (the intended market) ever want to rely on an energy source controlled by Pakistan? Not a chance.

This scheme is as improbable today as it was all those years ago, although that won't stop energy companies dreaming about it, and conspiracists including it in their fantasies - where it will live forever i guess. See here for more info:
http://dawn.com/2011/11/03/trans-afghan-gas-pipeline-the-dream-that-wont-die/

 

[جوري]

A huge improvement! This is the best informed post you've put up for some time. You should use Wikipedia more often.

Oh I didn't know we were being graded on performance by you. That's funny because I consider you a nonentity!

As they say, the pipeline project has a long and chequered history. It's no closer to being built now than it was 15 years ago

That doesn't matter- I have stated repeatedly that it is irrelevant!
What is relevant is the way they've maligned, vilified and subjugated that nation for their own greedy purposes and that taliban or shmaliban or women's rights or whatever cover they use is nothing more than a smoke screen but I have already covered all that before and said as much and in exact words they're nothing more than a paper tiger bound to lose.
Read more write less!

best,

 

[Mustafa2012]

This reply is for "Independent's" last post above...

1. No you're assumption is incorrect. It is not personalised any more than the personalisation in your posts. Since you seem to be a spokesman, an expert in Western Politics and often seem to defend Western policies and are quite critical of the activities of some Muslim countries, then the pronoun "your" seemed only fitting.

I appreciate you explaining how Ireland has been neutral. That's good to know. What I don't get is if Ireland has remained neutral in these matters then why do most of your comments in this forum appear to be defending western policies and criticizing ours?

Since you seem quite an expert in politics, surely you must be aware that the state sponsored crimes of the west put any modern or latter day Muslim "mistakes" into insignificance.

2. Re: the pipeline. To be honest I don't have the luxury to spend as much time as I would like looking into these details. I do have other responsibilities which have more of a priority in my life.

As far as the contradiction about the info available on the pipleine project, my belief is that if someone can think of something, they can make it happen. I don't put anything past people who would stoop to the lowest levels to achieve their goals.

3. For someone who opposes participation in certain wars, some of you're comments on this forum lead us to think otherwise.

If there isn't a secret consipracy going on then there are clearly publicly open policies that indicate a collective international effort to stifle any form of Islamic growth.

I do not believe that all westerners are guilty of the crimes of their leaders because I have personally met many nice westerners who are very similar in character to some Muslims except that they have a different belief. We are taught in the Qur'an to deal justly with non Muslims who do not cause us harm.

My understanding is that the average citizen has no say in foreign policies so it is not fair to hold them responsible for that. If however they express views that support oppressive foreign policies and make efforts to harm Muslims, then that is wrong. Nevertheless, I don't hold the average citizen responsible for the crimes of their leaders.

 

[جوري]

As far as the contradiction about the info available on the pipleine project

Please know that, that amongst a couple other of self serving reasons is the only rational behind Russia and then the U.S presence there. It is a matter of which 'super power' can secure what for its own interests.. It is just the game of nations.

I don't share your good impression otherwise of our forum pal but it is indeed mighty admirable of you to expect the best from people.

 

[Independent]

Greetings Mustafa.

I hate war.

The best way to stop wars is by talking and understanding. Try to see the other person’s point of view, even if it seems alien or wrong at first. (That doesn’t necessarily mean you have to agree with them.) This forum is a great way to learn about other views.

When people talk about secret western conspiracies and Crusaders, they are wasting time. None of this means anything to Western audiences. The average western citizen has no idea he’s supposed to be involved in a thousand year ideological war against Islam. In fact, the average western citizen is totally uninterested in Islam.

As I say, I can’t ‘undeclare’ a war I never declared in the first place. When I hear talk like this I think there's nothing to be done, they hate me anyway because of who I am and where I was born, let's just break out the Kalashnikovs and get on with it. Do I sometimes feel hatred on this forum? Yes I do.

Since you seem quite an expert in politics, surely you must be aware that the state sponsored crimes of the west put any modern or latter day Muslim "mistakes" into insignificance.

That’s an astonishingly sweeping statement and I think you can only make it because you are absorbed in a Muslim world view. (Every nation has a natural tendency to see its own soldiers as ‘the good guys’).

The only thing I'll say is that, making moral comparisons across the centuries is incredibly difficult. Attitudes have changed so much. We don't like empires today yet there was a time when they were seen as the natural order of things - whether Chinese, Roman, Persian or Arab.

I think it’s a matter of means and of opportunity. Strong countries have a tendency to attack weaker ones. When I look at history, I can’t see that Muslim countries have been significantly different in that regard.

you seem to be a spokesman, an expert in Western Politics and often seem to defend Western policies and are quite critical of the activities of some Muslim countries

This forum already has more than enough people keen to criticise the west. It's the other side of the argument that's missing. How will you understand the west if you don't want to hear what they say?

 

[Mustafa2012]

Greetings Mustafa.

That’s an astonishingly sweeping statement and I think you can only make it because you are absorbed in a Muslim world view. (Every nation has a natural tendency to see its own soldiers as ‘the good guys’).

The only thing I'll say is that, making moral comparisons across the centuries is incredibly difficult. Attitudes have changed so much. We don't like empires today yet there was a time when they were seen as the natural order of things - whether Chinese, Roman, Persian or Arab.

I think it’s a matter of means and of opportunity. Strong countries have a tendency to attack weaker ones. When I look at history, I can’t see that Muslim countries have been significantly different in that regard.

This forum already has more than enough people keen to criticise the west. It's the other side of the argument that's missing. How will you understand the west if you don't want to hear what they say?

Yes, its good to hear both sides, of course.

I am already quite aware of how non Muslims feel about things that some ignorant Muslims do but just remember that if you see Muslims oppressing non Muslims they are not doing so as representatives of Islam. They are doing it out of ignorance and a twisted understanding of Islam. These type of Muslims are the minority.

However the media distorts what these ignorant individuals do and tries to make them appear to be representative of the mainstream Islamic view. This is the media brainwashing that is going on. I'm sure you're already aware of this, right?

The media rarely shows the world the amount of good things that Muslims do as a whole. Maybe if they did, more people will realize that the lies they tell the world are simply not true and then they will be exposed for the lying, deceptive people they are.

I'm sorry if you think that's an astonishingly sweeping statement I made but you've given us reason to believe that with some of the statements you've made on this forum.

If your country is neutral and you hate war as you say then why do you continuously criticize the actions that some Muslim individuals or countries make?

Why are you saying things like,

I think it’s a matter of means and of opportunity. Strong countries have a tendency to attack weaker ones. When I look at history, I can’t see that Muslim countries have been significantly different in that regard.

Correct me if I'm wrong here but the way I interpret the above is, since the stronger countries are in power let us take advantage of the weaker ones, in this case Muslims and continue to oppress them and put them down and make them feel even smaller than they already are.

The word "bully" springs to mind here. What do you think?

Anyway all this suggests to me that you are not as as neutral as you claim to be.

I understand that war is war and there are always casualties and the weaker ones always suffer losses of some kind but for the record please quote me some examples where, when Muslims were in power, they oppressed their non Muslim citizens to the extent that the modern day governments oppress Muslims whether in wars or in non combatant everyday life scenarios.

Please don't quote any extremist groups because they are acting independently. They are not official representatives of Muslims as a whole.