Terror suspect student 'had suicide vest and explosives'

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This is what USA was mostly doing, up until 9/11. It obviously didn't work.

I disagree. USA has gotten involved in other countries affairs before. For example during Iraq and Iran war, America handed weapons to Iraq for assistance to fight against Iran.
 
I agree with Sister piXie.

Majority of the problems that occurred in the East are all due to Western foreign policy and their meddling. Ron Paul is the only Politician
in America that speaks sense.

America and their cronies rant on about democracy and how the public should elect their government. However in Palestine when Hamas was elected, looks how quick the government were labelled as ''terrorist,'' by other countries.

America labels anyone as terrorists and all the sad viewers of Fox news and CNN news blindly absorbs all the propaganda.

The irony kills it.

If we are talking about the source of all the problems, foreign policy needs to be sorted and fast.

I'm a crony? I absorb info from Fox and CNN blindly and don't have a independent thought? Wow, you know more about me then I do, go you!
 
I'm a crony? I absorb info from Fox and CNN blindly and don't have a independent thought? Wow, you know more about me then I do, go you!

Go me! : P

For cronies, I was referring to the government and those who blindly support them on using force to establish democracy with the cost of civilian lives. Here I was not referring to the general public.

Hey even I watch Fox news and CNN. Again I was referring to individuals who absorb all the propaganda and do not question that the news they present. Again I'm sure you don't fall under this category, but I'm pretty sure there are people who do not question the news that is presented.
 
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I disagree. USA has gotten involved in other countries affairs before. For example during Iraq and Iran war, America handed weapons to Iraq for assistance to fight against Iran.

So changing foreign policy does actually nothing if past actions are enough reason for terrorism for who knows how long?
 
So changing foreign policy does actually nothing if past actions are enough reason for terrorism for who knows how long?

Past and unresolved matters are what have lead to terrorism. For example Palestine and Israel conflict. These problems need to be resolved fairly and done by impartial individuals. I believe we need to speak to those who are committing terrorist activities and hear what they have to say. I'm suggesting, let’s try to behave like civilised human beings and discuss our problems rather than fighting.

I'm not saying Foreign policy is the answer for everything, but I think the first major step is to stop declaring on other countries and stop meddling in other countries affairs. For example, America at one point even considered going to war with Iran. George Bush had even labelled Iran as the ''axis of evil.''

Overall these problems will take time to heal. It would be impossible for these problems to vanish within matter of few years.
 
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Past and unresolved matters are what have lead to terrorism. For example Palestine and Israel conflict. These problems need to be resolved fairly and done by impartial individuals. I believe we need to speak to those who are committing terrorist activities and hear what they have to say. I'm suggesting, let’s try to behave like civilised human beings and discuss our problems rather than fighting.

Right, well, you cannot blame USA for not trying to solve it by discussing instead of fighting what with how much they have tried to solve it without fighting, especially before 9/11. Or maybe you can, I don't know, we, the westeners are so easily blamed for anything and everything anyhow.

I'm not saying Foreign policy is the answer for everything, but I think the first major step is to stop declaring on other countries and stop meddling in other countries affairs. For example, America at one point even considered going to war with Iran. George Bush had even labelled Iran as the ''axis of evil.''

Your first major step didn't work before, why would it work now? Beside you must have totally missed the "great satan" term, it usually takes two to play that game, so why blame only "West"? Why not those muslims who initiated the attacks against the USA again and again in the 90's and finally in 2001?

Personally I think this is just an excuse and perhaps even further such action that leads men like the one in first post to think its okay to do what he was going to do. I mean it's our fault anyhow and the victim's skirt was too short.
 
Right, well, you cannot blame USA for not trying to solve it by discussing instead of fighting what with how much they have tried to solve it without fighting, especially before 9/11. Or maybe you can, I don't know, we, the westeners are so easily blamed for anything and everything anyhow.


Why are people so afraid of getting the blame? Even I blame certain Muslims for killing innocent civilians. There actions cannot be justified. To make sure these things do not happen again, we must take precautions and find out what made them take these actions in the first place.

What did America do to try and negotiate with Al-Qaeda and the Taliban? In fact America even had supported Taliban them at one point. It is not impossible for America to come to terms with these people.


Your first major step didn't work before, why would it work now? Beside you must have totally missed the "great satan" term, it usually takes two to play that game, so why blame only "West"? Why not those muslims who initiated the attacks against the USA again and again in the 90's and finally in 2001?


We should try again then. America had a problem with Al-Qaeda. Why did they go to war with Iraq? Why did so many innocent civilians get killed? This is where long-term grudges take place.

Yes I blame those Muslims. I never said what they are doing is right. Both sides play dirty. I'm well aware that there are Muslims who plotting terrorist activities, and yes America has the right to defend itself.

Why do you think Al-Qaeda attacked USA twice? Don't just think Al-Qaeda attacked only America. In 1992 first terrorist attack took place as two bombs were detonated in Aden, Yemen. 2003 Istanbul bombings committed by Al-Qaeda.

Many Muslims have spoken against Al-Qaeda so many times, yet the media fails to highlight that. For example Sheikh Salman al-Ouda has spoken against Osama Bin Laden.


Personally I think this is just an excuse and perhaps even further such action that leads men like the one in first post to think its okay to do what he was going to do. I mean it's our fault anyhow and the victim's skirt was too short.

People can continue to sit here and say this is just the blame game. Yes some of the blame happens to go to America. When we examine the cause root of the problem, America to some extent is to blame. Why is that so hard to accept? Why do people get defensive?

I believe it is fine to admit what you have done is wrong. Very brave to be honest, because people don't like getting the blame. All I'm suggesting we should go to the cause root of the problem and then set up precautions to make sure they will not happen again.

I'm well aware there are some Muslims who do have extreme views. Yes I believe they should be dealt with and punished, if they harm others or plot terrorist activities.

Like you said, it takes two to play the game. Muslims acknoweldge what they have done is wrong and so should the West because both sides played dirty.
 
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Go me! : P

For cronies, I was referring to the government and those who blindly support them on using force to establish democracy with the cost of civilian lives. Here I was not referring to the general public.

Hey even I watch Fox news and CNN. Again I was referring to individuals who absorb all the propaganda and do not question that the news they present. Again I'm sure you don't fall under this category, but I'm pretty sure there are people who do not question the news that is presented.

Then please next time say the government, not just leave it out their to be assumed.

You never said that, you just said Americans, which means all in my book. Sorry to assume the wrong.

I don't watch fox or CNN, I watch NBC, or used too, until I just started buying USA Today's lol.
 
Then please next time say the government, not just leave it out their to be assumed.

You never said that, you just said Americans, which means all in my book. Sorry to assume the wrong.

I don't watch fox or CNN, I watch NBC, or used too, until I just started buying USA Today's lol.

Actually I should apologise. I should not to make generalisations. Sorry.

I will be more careful.
 
Why are people so afraid of getting the blame? Even I blame certain Muslims for killing innocent civilians. There actions cannot be justified. To make sure these things do not happen again, we must take precautions and find out what made them take these actions in the first place.

People can continue to sit here and say this is just the blame game. Yes some of the blame happens to go to America. When we examine the cause root of the problem, America to some extent is to blame. Why is that so hard to accept? Why do people get defensive?

I believe it is fine to admit what you have done is wrong. Very brave to be honest, because people don't like getting the blame. All I'm suggesting we should go to the cause root of the problem and then set up precautions to make sure they will not happen again.

I'm well aware there are some Muslims who do have extreme views. Yes I believe they should be dealt with and punished, if they harm others or plot terrorist activities.

It's not that. The problem is your original claim that Western actions are the root cause of the problem. I can and will agree that USA and West are partly to blame for our evil actions and the contribution from those to present day situation, but only for partly.

My take on what made people like this man think this is okay:
- open and often unchallenged racism towards non-muslims, we are anything from kuffar dogs to those evil beings that want to cleanse the Europe/World from muslims.
- something Kading mentioned before: the open and often rather unchallenged respect and admiration towards groups who operate to kill innocent civilians.
- Belittling civilian casualties or targetting of civilians when they are non-muslim. For example the mentality "it's just some random rocket fire to Israel, causes no real damage, why fire back on that". Somehow I also remember comparing terrorism victims to yearly car accident figures.
- Endless victim attitude, wrongdoings of non-muslims are underlined and sensationalised while wrongdoings of muslims are belittled/ignored/claimed its not islamic and thats that.
- Unfair treatment of muslims.
- Cycle of violence, the evil actions by muslims and by westeners. Israel-Palestine conflict and the delibrate ignoring of their own side's contribution to cycle of violence by muslims and non-muslims alike.
- Ever increasing racism and hate towards muslims.

How's that? I probably missed something.

Like you said, it takes two to play the game. Muslims acknoweldge what they have done is wrong and so should the West because both sides played dirty.

I really disagree with that, my own perception is that for the most time, there is hardly any visible self-criticism among muslims, atleast if this forum and others like this are any indication. Where for example is the acceptance that palestinians/muslims are themselves also to blame for Israel-Palestine conflict?
 
It's not that. The problem is your original claim that Western actions are the root cause of the problem. I can and will agree that USA and West are partly to blame for our evil actions and the contribution from those to present day situation, but only for partly.

I agree. I admit I was biased.

My take on what made people like this man think this is okay:
- open and often unchallenged racism towards non-muslims, we are anything from kuffar dogs to those evil beings that want to cleanse the Europe/World from muslims.
- something Kading mentioned before: the open and often rather unchallenged respect and admiration towards groups who operate to kill innocent civilians.
- Belittling civilian casualties or targetting of civilians when they are non-muslim. For example the mentality "it's just some random rocket fire to Israel, causes no real damage, why fire back on that". Somehow I also remember comparing terrorism victims to yearly car accident figures.
- Endless victim attitude, wrongdoings of non-muslims are underlined and sensationalised while wrongdoings of muslims are belittled/ignored/claimed its not islamic and thats that.
- Unfair treatment of muslims.
- Cycle of violence, the evil actions by muslims and by westeners. Israel-Palestine conflict and the delibrate ignoring of their own side's contribution to cycle of violence by muslims and non-muslims alike.
- Ever increasing racism and hate towards muslims.

How's that? I probably missed something.

That sums it all up.

I really disagree with that, my own perception is that for the most time, there is hardly any visible self-criticism among muslims, atleast if this forum and others like this are any indication.

Some Muslims are defensive yes I do see that. However Muslims do critique amongst themselves. Some Muslims are not pleased how Saudi Arabia operates internally. We Muslims are divided, for the example the Sunni and Shia conflict. At my school, Muslims did in religious education lessons spoke against actions committed by the Taliban and some of the Muslim terrorists. So yes we critique ourselves at times, though I guess we should do it more often.

Where for example is the acceptance that palestinians/muslims are themselves also to blame for Israel-Palestine conflict?

Well I dislike Hamas tactics by attacking Israeli civillians. Civillians should not be targerted.

Other than that, are there any other actions that the Plaestinians muslims have done to some extent to be blame for this conflict? I'm well aware what Israel has done.
 
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Muslims care for one another. Nationality or your ethnic background does not stop one Muslim caring or helping another Muslim. Of course we help other Muslims according to Islamic principles and are not supposed to step outside the boundaries.

That is how I think Andrew Ibrahim felt, though he took the wrong course of action by making explosives. He wanted to get himself noticed and I conclude he was just looking for attention. He got interested in the wrong people, past Muslim suicide bombers and believed violence was the answer to the entire problem. Of course he was wrong.

This is why I stress for the American government and other Western countries to mind their own business. The American government used violence to sort out issues in the Middle East. Using violence does not work. Both sides loose.

If America improves on their foreign policy, listen for a change, and then people will not take drastic action. We could see decrease in terrorist activities.

There are just some abnormal things going on here. Some guy in England, who has never been wronged by any actions from the British government apparently thinks it would make sense to blow himself up among civilians in a shopping centre. What mindset causes that to happen to someone who otherwise has a quiet life far away from any war zone and suffering?

I completely agree with you that changes to Western foreign policy can help to alleviate the situation. But I also think there is something unique to the Muslim response to what are essentially local conflicts. There is an ideology at play here that turns what are regional conflicts into a global problem. IMHO Muslims cannot just blame the escalation over the last decade or so on the West.

Like I noted, there are two major issues here. Framing of conflicts in a way that escalates them and the fact that waging war for Islam is apparently a privatized endaeavor. Ideology (in this case religion) generally determines why to fight, who has to fight and how to fight. Islam prescribes all these things.

Firstly, there is the Islamic framing of conflicts, with its strong sense of victimization and powerful siege mentality. Everything is immediately framed as being a "War on Islam" by filthy kuffar who want nothing less than the destruction of Islam. I think this is rooted in strong and negative stereotypes about non-Muslims in some interpretations of Islam. Heck, look at sites like Islam-qa.com and you should understand what I mean. These negative views of the kuffar and this Pan-Islamic nationalism (aka Ummah) are making conflicts that are essentially local and about land or power (Palestine, Iraq-Kuwait, Chechnya) into global problems with a religious dimension. Suddenly every Muslim everywhere is involved and every conflict is a war on Islam. That is pretty unique IMHO, such a strong sense of brotherhood and the 'religionization' of everything.

So now wars involving Muslims are religious wars against Islam and in a religious war every Muslim has the religious duty to fight jihad. But since there is no Caliph, every Tom, Dick and Harry sets up his own enterprise to fulfill this religious duty. War is privatized. It is not fought by authorities, but by bands of religious fighters. And all this is authorized by scholars. You see this everywhere in the Islamic world and IMHO it is unique on this scale. It is similar to what happened with Communism at some point, namely during the Spanish civil war.

But these groups don't care at all about the wishes of the authorities and have their own dynamics and beliefs. For example, one of the most important grievances of Bin Laden in his 'Declaration of War' against the Crusaders and Polytheists (US) was the 'occupation' of the lands of the two Holy Places. He didn't care that US troops were in Saudi Arabia with the explicit permission of the Saudi authorities, to him it was an offense to his religion. To the Americans there was no religious dimension at all, they had their own geo-political motivations and so did the Arab governments that supported them. Ideology created a conflict where there essentially was none, since politically the Saudi's and Americans agreed. A private organization vowed to wage war against the wishes of the legitimate authorities and very much managed to escalate by bombings of US targets.

At some point apparently a precedent was set in the Islamic world that made war the business of private groups and not states. This is generally accepted and even praised in Islamic circles, because it allows Muslims to fulfill their religious duty for Jihad. To many these people are heroes. But since these jihadist organizations can never match the states they fight in their military power, they had to seek alternative ways to wage war. They had to use asymmetric means of warfare and fight like guerrillas. Which means they turn to bombings. And while Islam despises suicide, it glorifies dying for ones religion. When being desperate and fighting a superior foe (be it the Israelis, Soviet Union, United States or even their own 'apostate' governments) one seeks all the help one can get. Fueled by this incredible desire to please Allah and fight for ones religion this inevitably leads to 'martyrdom operations', simply because these human smart bombs are so much more effective than a normal 'dumb' bomb. Many Muslims obviously object to this method, but there is clearly disagreement among scholars, so the issue remains unsettled. So despite some doubts about their methods these groups are nevertheless perceived as fighting a just cause and get widespread respect and support.

So while I agree Western foreign policy is an important cause for the escalation, it is most certainly not the only one IMHO. There are some unique dynamics at play here that turn a British boy, who is otherwise not involved in the conflict into a wannabe suicide bomber.
 
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If some people can't accept Muslims being prosecuted by a 'KUFFAR' justice system in a KUFFAR country, then they shouldn't be here. It is as simple as that.
That's a separate issue that sprouts from one of the main ones, which is some people feel that telling the 'KUFFAR' police force about cases involving Muslim suspects is in and of itself some sort of dishonourable snitching.

How can we possibly organize society and peacefully coexist if Muslims would be unwilling to accept the rule of law? It just isn't possible.
This is true.

In this particular case, if efforts to reason with the suspect failed, the evidence was such that it was right to inform the authorities, in order to prevent a possible mass murder.
 
In this particular case, if efforts to reason with the suspect failed, the evidence was such that it was right to inform the authorities, in order to prevent a possible mass murder.

How do you address the problem I raised earlier about the suspect being tipped off by the 'efforts to reason' with him? Let us assume, as I think we have to at least in general sense, that his motivation for committing a terrorist act would be difficult to shift. Surely, from his perspective, the rational course of action would be to accelerate his plans to cause such mass murder before he was arrested, rather than just sit around waiting for the police to turn up?
 
How do you address the problem I raised earlier about the suspect being tipped off by the 'efforts to reason' with him? Let us assume, as I think we have to at least in general sense, that his motivation for committing a terrorist act would be difficult to shift. Surely, from his perspective, the rational course of action would be to accelerate his plans to cause such mass murder before he was arrested, rather than just sit around waiting for the police to turn up?
Assuming he is aware of your disapproval of such acts, if he knew that you knew of his plans, wouldn't he accelarate his plans regardless of whether you tried to reason with him or call the police?

Reasoning with him is not going to delay the process enough for him to practicably accelarate his plans at any rate. Once it's clear he's not going to listen to reason, tell the police. Immediately. Simple.

It's a non-issue in this case anyway. He did not carry out any attack. The police intervention precluded that possibility.
 
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Some Muslims are defensive yes I do see that. However Muslims do critique amongst themselves. Some Muslims are not pleased how Saudi Arabia operates internally. We Muslims are divided, for the example the Sunni and Shia conflict. At my school, Muslims did in religious education lessons spoke against actions committed by the Taliban and some of the Muslim terrorists. So yes we critique ourselves at times, though I guess we should do it more often.

Well I dislike Hamas tactics by attacking Israeli civillians. Civillians should not be targerted.

Other than that, are there any other actions that the Plaestinians muslims have done to some extent to be blame for this conflict? I'm well aware what Israel has done.

Dislike? That's your criticism?

Maybe the semi constant attacks year after year? Actually not a single month last year when Israel wasn't targeted from Gaza. You don't think this is something that further fuels and keeps the conflict on going? What about the lack of similar good will gesture after the israeli withdrawal from Gaza? What about key military/political figures hiding among their families or civilians, especially during war times? I could go on about the use of children and women as suicide bombers, the teaching of hate to children for example the use of "hamas mickey mouse" and the contribution from that towards the suffering of palestinians when israeli soldiers respond to the use of children and women to attack israelis.

How exactly is the Gaza section in this forum anyway fair and balanced where there is critique amongst muslims? It's nothing but hate propaganda and demonising (something that's again tolerated if you are looking for reasons why some self proclaimed mislead muslim might get the idea killing kuffars, in this case jews, is good and islamic idea).

I mean for example we are told targetting civilians is not islamic, and muslims care so much about other muslims, thus, surely these other muslims need to act islamically too? Where's the criticism towards muslims voting a group that acts in unislamic manner or where is the action and criticism to encourage palestinian "resistance" to stop acting unislamically? Why is it that there is so much more praise for their actions that are said to be unislamic (or disliked) than encouragement for them to change their habits to something more islamic? Why such criticism shines with its absence?
 
Dislike? That's your criticism?

You don't like my choice of vocabulary? XD

How exactly is the Gaza section in this forum anyway fair and balanced where there is critique amongst muslims? It's nothing but hate propaganda and demonising (something that's again tolerated if you are looking for reasons why some self proclaimed mislead muslim might get the idea killing kuffars, in this case jews, is good and islamic idea)

I mean for example we are told targetting civilians is not islamic, and muslims care so much about other muslims, thus, surely these other muslims need to act islamically too? Where's the criticism towards muslims voting a group that acts in unislamic manner or where is the action and criticism to encourage palestinian "resistance" to stop acting unislamically?

Why is it that there is so much more praise for their actions that are said to be unislamic (or disliked) than encouragement for them to change their habits to something more islamic? Why such criticism shines with its absence?

First I would like to state, Muslims on this forum are not creating hate propaganda against the Jews. We not are supportive of the Zionist regime, because all it had caused is death and destruction. Muslims, Christians and Jews lived peacefully in Palestine before the Zionist regime was introduced. Compare the death rate statistics on both sides. Palestinian casualties and death rate is significantly greater than Israeli casualties/death rate. Who is doing more harm?

What criticism towards Muslim voting for Hamas? This is democracy. The Palestinian people have every right to vote for whatever government they want. Hypocritical if you ask me, western countries speak of democracy but claims Hamas is an illegitimate government even though the public voted for them. Whether Hamas behaves islamic or not, that does not fall the blame on the citizens. I'm sure you would not like it if I put the blame on the American citizens for voting George Bush, who made a mess of his own country and other countries.

What praise? Where do you see Muslims praising Hamas? If you were living in Palestine, under military control by Israel, who would, you turn to support? Israeli government have completely silenced the Palestinian people and refuse to listen to them. Yes Hamas has played dirty, but Israeli government have committed horrific acts against the Palestinian people for nearly 60 years. Imagine that...

Hamas will only change if Israel changes as well.
 
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First I would like to state, Muslims on this forum are not creating hate propaganda against the Jews. We not are supportive of the Zionist regime, because all it had caused is death and destruction. Muslims, Christians and Jews lived peacefully in Palestine before the Zionist regime was introduced. Compare the death rate statistics on both sides. Palestinian casualties and death rate is significantly greater than Israeli casualties/death rate. Who is doing more harm?

Being unsupportive is one thing, blaming them for everything and overlooking wrongdoings against them is another. There are very vocal Israeli and jewish groups that criticise Israeli wrongdoings, where are the Palestinian and muslim groups who do the same to wrongdoings towards Israel?

You have one side actively attacking from civilian areas along with the afore mentioned using of women and underage as suicide bombers. Contribution from Palestinian behaviour to the rise of the casualty figures is ignored and everything is solely blamed at Israel. Besides your harm comparison also ignores the fact that Israel has more efficient way to protect their civilians and Im not totally convinced Hamas isn't ready to sacrifice civilians for political gain. Of the ammount of rockets fired into Israel, its not really lack of trying on Hamas' part to kill Israelis.

Clinging on the casualty figure over a conflict like this and ignoring all those aspects details is... I dunno, where is that fairness you wanted earlier when resolving these issues. The way you speak of "the zionist regime" seems to be that what everybody else does, demonising, how does that bring peace or lessen bitterness?

Lastly, there have been open cases of hate towards jews in this forum. The Kosher thread that was initially approved in World Affairs perhaps most memorable to me due to its poetic nature, admittedly it was moved in the end, after whining from non-muslims. In any case, how do you know no muslim has created hate on this forum towards jews? Despite my over simplification, what leads to such a blanket statement and what happened to all that how hard is it to people to admit the blame?

What criticism towards Muslim voting for Hamas? This is democracy. The Palestinian people have every right to vote for whatever government they want. Hypocritical if you ask me, western countries speak of democracy but claims Hamas is an illegitimate government even though the public voted for them. Whether Hamas behaves islamic or not, that does not fall the blame on the citizens. I'm sure you would not like it if I put the blame on the American citizens for voting George Bush, who made a mess of his own country and other countries.

Perhaps the samekind of criticism like there is towards voting BNP or I don't know, Geert Wilders? You are aware that even western goverments have been boycotted by other western goverments when their people made the wrong choice? Austria and Jörg Haider anyone? It's all part of democracy, we voted for something that was unhappy with what the Austrians voted for and then we showed it to them by boycotting them at EU politics and byrocracy.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2000/mar/01/austria.ianblack

How does democracy mean that if people pick the racist, or in this case unislamic choice it should not be criticised? What does it matter if the public voted for Hamas if they act in unislamic manner and nevertheless muslims vote for them? We criticise people who vote for racists or other wrong things in our minds, why not criticise those who vote for people who act unislamically?

What praise? Where do you see Muslims praising Hamas? If you were living in Palestine, under military control by Israel, who would, you turn to support? Israeli government have completely silenced the Palestinian people and refuse to listen to them. Yes Hamas has played dirty, but Israeli government have committed horrific acts against the Palestinian people for nearly 60 years. Imagine that...

Hamas will only change if Israel changes as well.

Right, wasn't so hard to find praise/support for Hamas:
http://www.islamicboard.com/news-gaza/134277342-hamas-martyr-siyam-buried-gaza.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/news-gaza/134276685-hamas-fighters-now-well-organised-force.html

I wonder how many more praises one can find only at the Gaza section of the forum.

You claim there is critique among muslims yet... well.. when points are raised how somethings are not criticised by muslims, all that ended up happening here is criticising Israel. What happened to agreeing with how both sides ignore their sides contribution to the cycle of violence?
 
Being unsupportive is one thing, blaming them for everything and overlooking wrongdoings against them is another. There are very vocal Israeli and jewish groups that criticise Israeli wrongdoings, where are the Palestinian and muslim groups who do the same to wrongdoings towards Israel?

No one wants to see any harm upon the Israel civilians. I'm well aware of Jewish individuals who are against the Zionist regime. It is possible for the Jews and Muslims to live in peace. There were already Jews living in Palestine. However all the Zionist regime did is cause conflict between two followers of religion. Why can't Muslims and Jews live in one state? Zionist regime has divided lands.

You have one side actively attacking from civilian areas along with the afore mentioned using of women and underage as suicide bombers. Contribution from Palestinian behaviour to the rise of the casualty figures is ignored and everything is solely blamed at Israel. Besides your harm comparison also ignores the fact that Israel has more efficient way to protect their civilians and Im not totally convinced Hamas isn't ready to sacrifice civilians for political gain. Of the ammount of rockets fired into Israel, its not really lack of trying on Hamas' part to kill Israelis.

This is a conflict. Of course civilians are going to be killed. If you go to another country and force people out of their homes, don't expect people not to fight back. The reason many blame Israel because they refuse to listen to the Palestinian people. You are going to expect people take drastic action. How else are they going to get themselves heard?

Clinging on the casualty figure over a conflict like this and ignoring all those aspects details is... I dunno, where is that fairness you wanted earlier when resolving these issues. The way you speak of "the zionist regime" seems to be that what everybody else does, demonising, how does that bring peace or lessen bitterness?

Tell me what good the Zionist regime has done?

Lastly, there have been open cases of hate towards jews in this forum. The Kosher thread that was initially approved in World Affairs perhaps most memorable to me due to its poetic nature, admittedly it was moved in the end, after whining from non-muslims. In any case, how do you know no muslim has created hate on this forum towards jews? Despite my over simplification, what leads to such a blanket statement and what happened to all that how hard is it to people to admit the blame?

Seriously I never heard a Muslim member on this forum actually stating they hate Jews. Where did you get the impression we on this forum hate Jews?

I know Muslim in reality hate Jews but I've yet come across any member who hates Jews on this forum.

If you really think this is an issue, why did you not contact the moderator about this?

Perhaps the samekind of criticism like there is towards voting BNP or I don't know, Geert Wilders? You are aware that even western goverments have been boycotted by other western goverments when their people made the wrong choice? Austria and Jörg Haider anyone? It's all part of democracy, we voted for something that was unhappy with what the Austrians voted for and then we showed it to them by boycotting them at EU politics and byrocracy

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2000/mar/01/austria.ianblack

How does democracy mean that if people pick the racist, or in this case unislamic choice it should not be criticised? What does it matter if the public voted for Hamas if they act in unislamic manner and nevertheless muslims vote for them? We criticise people who vote for racists or other wrong things in our minds, why not criticise those who vote for people who act unislamically?

Palestine voted for Hamas because they believe it will grant them back their freedom. They are fighting against the Israeli military oppression. Yes tactics they use are not right but this is the sad fact about any conflict. Yes you may critique Hamas but I'm against critiquing the people. How will the Palestinian people are know what tactics Hamas going to use are un-islamic?


Right, wasn't so hard to find praise/support for Hamas:
http://www.islamicboard.com/news-gaza/134277342-hamas-martyr-siyam-buried-gaza.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/news-gaza/134276685-hamas-fighters-now-well-organised-force.html

I wonder how many more praises one can find only at the Gaza section of the forum.

You claim there is critique among muslims yet... well.. when points are raised how somethings are not criticised by muslims, all that ended up happening here is criticising Israel. What happened to agreeing with how both sides ignore their sides contribution to the cycle of violence?

Hamas martyr Siyam buried in Gaza
Sat, 17 Jan 2009
Thousands of people have attended the funeral of the interior minister in the Hamas-led government, Saeed Siyam, who was killed in an Israeli raid.

Palestinians carried the body of Siyam during his funeral in Gaza City on Friday, chanting resistance songs.

An Israeli air strike in Beit Lahiyah on Thursday hit the house of Siyam's brother, killing Siyam, his brother, Ayad, and his son, as well as 20 others.

How nice...

Siyam, 50, is the most senior Hamas figure killed in Operation Cast Lead so far. He was also considered the most senior Hamas figure killed by Israel since the assassination of Dr. Abdel Aziz al-Rantisi in 2004.

Earlier, Hamas pledged to wreak awful revenge on Israel for killing the movement's interior minister, saying, "His blood will not have been shed in vain. We will respond with actions and not words."

Since Israel started Operation Cast Lead on December 27, to put an end to rocket attacks on its southern cities, at least 1,170 Palestinians have been killed, with some 5,150 others wounded.

How people fail to see the harm that has came out of this conflict.

Yes I'm not pleased with some of their actions, but I do support them to fight against the Zionist regime. Hamas should be allowed to fight for what they have lost. America and Israel honestly don't care about the rights of the Palestinian people. If they did, they would have done something by now in approximately sixty years. Palestine is under military control and Hamas is fighting for their rights of their people.

So overall, personally I have yet come across a member who stated they hate Jews. I know members that hate Zionism on this forum. Members do support Hamas since they want to fight for Palestinian freedom however does not mean we support every action they take. Hamas has been elected by their people because they want their freedom back. I don't blame them for voting for a party who will fight back the regime, of sixty years of torture the Palestinian people through.

BTW we are off topic here. Shall we create another thread to discuss this?
 
This is a conflict. Of course civilians are going to be killed. If you go to another country and force people out of their homes, don't expect people not to fight back. The reason many blame Israel because they refuse to listen to the Palestinian people. You are going to expect people take drastic action. How else are they going to get themselves heard?

Tell me what good the Zionist regime has done?

Seriously I never heard a Muslim member on this forum actually stating they hate Jews. Where did you get the impression we on this forum hate Jews?

I know Muslim in reality hate Jews but I've yet come across any member who hates Jews on this forum.

You are missing the point. It's not that Israel has done wrong, they have. It is that there is no real criticism to the evil perpetrated by the self-proclaimed muslims. Ive been trying to point out the wrong or questionable Palestinians have done as you asked, and all you really end up doing is criticising Israel, time and again. So I ask, again, what happened to agreeing with both sides ignore their own contribution to the cycle of violence.

If you really think this is an issue, why did you not contact the moderator about this?

Because I'd really like see muslims act against it and other racism without the whining kuffar.

Palestine voted for Hamas because they believe it will grant them back their freedom. They are fighting against the Israeli military oppression. Yes tactics they use are not right but this is the sad fact about any conflict. Yes you may critique Hamas but I'm against critiquing the people. How will the Palestinian people are know what tactics Hamas going to use are un-islamic?

The same way people know BNP is racist? Hamas and their targetting of civilians had been around long time before the elections and Palestinians were muslims and reading Quran and how killing civilians is wrong long before Hamas.

How nice...

How people fail to see the harm that has came out of this conflict.

Yes I'm not pleased with some of their actions, but I do support them to fight against the Zionist regime. Hamas should be allowed to fight for what they have lost. America and Israel honestly don't care about the rights of the Palestinian people. If they did, they would have done something by now in approximately sixty years. Palestine is under military control and Hamas is fighting for their rights of their people.

Yes, shall we start a competion where each other picks senceless acts of violence perpetrated by other side? Besides you again ignore the reasons why Israel behaves this way. If the harmful actions of Israel causes wrongdoings by Palestinians then surely the things you are not pleased with causes wrongdoings by Israelis.

What stops someone supporting Israeli side saying "Yes I'm not pleased with some of their actions, but I do support them to fight against the Palestinian terrorism"? He is displeased by the bombing you just quoted, but he supports Israel because they are the right good side according to him. Such position in my opinion is what leads to the cycle of violence, the overlooking of wrongdoings for the greater cause.

But planket statements of blame are fun, maybe something about if there was any care for Israeli civilian victims and the unislamic manner of fighting, they would have done something about it now in the approximately sixty years?

So overall, personally I have yet come across a member who stated they hate Jews. I know members that hate Zionism on this forum. Members do support Hamas since they want to fight for Palestinian freedom however does not mean we support every action they take. Hamas has been elected by their people because they want their freedom back. I don't blame them for voting for a party who will fight back the regime, of sixty years of torture the Palestinian people through.

BTW we are off topic here. Shall we create another thread to discuss this?

I don't think its off topic. Because, what is the implication of all this in the case of Ibrahim. He sees that fighting unislamically brings you martyrdom and all that really matters is fighting back against the oppression of muslims, not how you fight.

I think this line of outright ignoring of wrongdoings by muslims and calling them martyrs because they fight for the right cause and blaming their enemies for everything is one of the reasons what leads people to think that what they do is right.
 

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