Periwinkle18
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May Allah open ur heart and guide u towards the right path ameen 
Thank you for your time :)
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Burninglight
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lol, I am not the historian, but I will have to get back to you on this; I need to research a little more.
lol, Bush??, I am not too happy about him. if he said that I don't know, but Jesus did.
Oh, good because I don't know brother Andrew; I wrote him once to find out where he gets his info, but he never responded; that was the end of that. People say things that sound reputable, and they give sources; so, I don't know, and I ask is it true? I have never done so much research in my life before. I am asking God why is truth so hard to find?
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Thank you I want God my one true Creator to guide my heart to the right path. I wish the same for you too
PBUY
why become agnostic? that doesn't seem logical. you, as a Christian, see the problems with all of the "churches" but you still believe in Jesus, pbuh. well...SO DO WE! we believe Jesus, pbuh , is IN FACT the Jewish Messiah! we also believe he will return, that's what you believe as well. so how do you determine what to believe about Jesus, pbuh?
you look for authentic sources! there are no contemporaneous eyewitness accounts. here's the lowdown on the Gospels:
Mark: written sometime between 65 and 75AD. no one knows who authored it. but even still at this late date, there is no eyewitness, or written, account of a resurrected Jesus, pbuh. you see, Mark ends at:
16:6 “Don’t be alarmed,” he said. “You are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who was crucified. He has risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid him. 7 But go, tell his disciples and Peter, ‘He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.’”
8 Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid.
reading further in the NIV, you see:
[The earliest manuscripts and some other ancient witnesses do not have verses 9–20.]
9 When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons. 10 She went and told those who had been with him and who were mourning and weeping. 11 When they heard that Jesus was alive and that she had seen him, they did not believe it.
12 Afterward Jesus appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking in the country. 13 These returned and reported it to the rest; but they did not believe them either.
14 Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen.
15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”
19 After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. 20 Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.
the ending of Mark is an addition as testified BY CHRISTIAN SCHOLARS!
Matthew and Luke [both anonymous] are believed to have been written around 85AD. but think of the year. remember, most of the Apostles are always shown as being OLDER than Jesus, pbuh, who had to have been born around 6-4BC. any living apostles would have been 90 plus! a wee bit fishy...
now take a look at John [again, anonymous]. this is pretty much the definitive Jesus IS God Gospel, but it was written until around 95AD! we can safely assume all of the Apostles are dead and so without any eyewitnesses remaining, Jesus BECOMES God!
you can call it the "evolution of Christology" if you please.
so, if we have no authentic eyewitness sources, we must find some kind of revelatory accounts; we need someone sent by God, thru the "Holy Spirit" you would say. well, that's what we are telling you! God sent Gabriel [Holy Spirit] to Muhammad, pbuh! we believe most of what you believe about Jesus, pbuh. he performed many miracles, even raising the dead. he is the Messiah, and he will return!
now where we differ, is the LAW. Jesus, pbuh, "said" not one jot or tittle would pass away, Paul says NO LAW. if there were to be no law, wouldn't Jesus, especially if you think he is God, wouldn't he have mentioned that? why did Jesus, pbuh, make Peter the head of the Church if Paul was just going to destriy his work? did Jesus, pbuh, say, "here are the keys to the kingdom, give them to Saul when you see him? did he?
we HAVE the LAW! even the 10 commandments; it looks like 9, but it's 10! i'll explain in a later post, in sha'a Allah.
ponder that for now...
:wa:
sam
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I would be agnostic, because...Look this is disturbing stuff I have to do more study. I don't even know if this true; it could be from a Christian hate site. God will have to lead me on what I should say write and do. There is distrubing things written about the Bible and the Quran. If Christ is not raised from the dead than I have wasted most of my life. That is not something to wink at. I am not blaming you. Peter minstered to the Jews and Paul to the gentiles. All the law was fufilled through Christ with His death on the cross. Now through Christ we have our restl He is our Sabbath rest, If we love God with all our heart soul and mind and our neighbor as ourself, we fufill all the law and the prophets. I will look into the Christ's death and resurrection. That is the heart of Christianity not Peter or Paul
hate site? no, it is all available in Christian Bibles and reference books. that is why iy shocked Bart Ehrman so much. MOST educated church leaders know all of this. they don't tell "their flocks" using the excuse that they are "babes in Christ" and that it would weaken their faith.
[Protestant]Professor Luke Timothy Johnson tells 2 amazing stories in his course, The Story of the Bible [available from The Teaching Company]:
http://www.thegreatcourses.com/tgc/courses/course_detail.aspx?cid=6252
the first is that when Catholic leaders were first dealing with the reformation, at first there was little concern. Many Protestants were calling for "sola sriptora", religion based solely on the Bible. Catholic leaders figured once they realized the condition of the scriptures, they would have to return because the Popes claimed direct descendancy from Peter and Paul.
the second involve the "trinity" verse. when Humanist Erasmus first translated the New Testament, he quoted I John 5:7/8 as:
7 For there are three that testify: 8 the[a] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
Catholic leaders were furious as they are a trinity based church. they demanded the he put it back. his response was that he had reviewed nearly 100 manuscripts and NONE of them contained the verse. if they wanted him to include the verse, they would have to produce a manuscript with verse in it. that is just what they did, Erasmus, fearing the inquisition, inserted it back. that is why you will read in NIV study Bibles, the following footnote:
Footnotes:
1 John 5:8 Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the fourteenth century)
source example:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 John 5&version=NIV
source example for Mark 16 footnote:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark 16&version=NIV
as you can see, these are Christian Bible resources. you can go to a bookstore or library and open a Zondervan NIV Study Bible and see those notes for yourself.
what for me is amazing about this is that as a consequence of this, that Christians were STILL trying to determine what should or should not be in the Bible in the 14th Century is that, even though the Qur'an was revealed nearly 600 years AFTER the authentic Injeel [the true Gospel of Jesus, pbuh], the Qur'an was in completed form nearly 7 centuries BEFORE the Bible!
now which does it seem that God provided protection for? the Bible? or the Qur'an!
Brother, we are only inviting you to the truth! there is only One God, not 3 in 1, or 1 in 3! and Muhammad, pbuh, IS a Messenger of God, just as Jesus,pbuh was!
can't you now see the evidence for the truth? you, if you wanted, could finally realize that your search for the TRUE "church" of Jesus has finally come to fruition. PLEASE join us!
:wa:
sam
Assalamu alaikum, Brother. Have you considered the significance of this date relative to the destruction of Jerusalem and the turmoil that must have existed at that time? Jerusalem and the immediate surrounding area is the heart of where Jesus (as) preached and it is where the disciples resided as evidenced by Paul in Galatians. Could it be that the 4 gospels were written by followers of Paul again as one may interpret from Galatians?
Imagine for a moment a hypothetical parallel between the 1st century of Christianity and of Islam if the Muslims were annihlated and Prophet Muhammad (saaws) was killed at the Battle of Badr instead of them being victorious and the prominent pagans like Abu Lahab being killed. Imagine that the remaining Muslims were hunted down and slaughtered after this to extinguish any threat to their idol worship. Imagine that the chief among these pagans persecuting the Muslims, say Yazid ibn Muawiya, (who never met Muhammad) was traveling to a distant land to arrest the Muslims there, but he had a supernatural vision on the way, repented of his persecution and became a Muslim. However, instead of going to Medina to see Uthman (not present at Badr) to learn about the teachings of Muhammad, he went to Persia for 3 years. During this time he continued to develop his understanding of Islam through direct 'revelation from Allah' as he claimed. Now imagine this 'Islam' that was revealed to him had nothing to do with prayer, fasting, charity or pilgrimage, but instead saw that the highly respected leader of the first Muslims, Muhammad, was really the manifestation of Allah on earth and that his death at Badr was the means for mankind to be redeemed from their sins and gain Paradise. Imagine that the Quran revealed to Muhammad had not been memorized or written down, but instead various hadith - some Qudsi (Holy), some sahih (authentic), some da'if (weak) and some mawdu (fabricated) - were written down 50 years after Muhammad's death. Then imagine that a diverse collection of these hadith were evaluated after an additional 250 years and 300 out of 3,000 hadith were deemed as 'authentic' with the subcollection being given the title 'Quran' and the others destroyed.
If this preposterous scenario happened, what form of Islam would we have today? Could this imaginary scenario be an analogy for what actually happened in Christianity?
Burninglight
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http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/easter/articles/josh2.html
To put Christianity to nought one just has to destroy the the story of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is not necessary to bring up interpolation discrepancies or translational errors or omitted books of the Bible. Just His death and resurrection is enough!
To put Christianity to nought one just has to destroy the the story of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is not necessary to bring up interpolation discrepancies or translational errors or omitted books of the Bible. Just His death and resurrection is enough!
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Yes, and I find it more than coincidental that his death was unequivocally denied in the Quran 4:157 "... they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them... " The foundation of Christianity as we know it today IMO was laid bare and exposed as 'sinking sand' in a single Quranic verse. What comes to my mind is Matthew 7:26-27 Everyone who hears these words of mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.”
the date is of EXTREME importance. the dates i gave for the Gospels are generally accepted by the majority of Biblical scholars. conservative Christians and evangelicals cite the omission of the destruction of the Temple in the Gospels as evidence that they were written before it. that is like saying if i write a story about the Korean War, but don't mention the Vietnam War then my writing of it had to predate the Vietnam War.
ALL of the Gospels were written after Paul "changed" the true Message of Christianity, therefore, the writers probably had little interested in the destruction of the Temple. you see anti-Jewish sentiment in the Gospels anyway.
you can't destroy the REAL Christianity, which is Islam!
:wa:
some comments on the link:
the human lifespan was alot shorter 200 years ago, 35 years before Mark is a LONG time! an assumption is NOT evidence.
what IS a FACT is that we don't know who the writers were. they don't identify themselves or themselves as witnesses. it is hearsay.again, an assumption is NOT evidence.
assumption.
there is no evidence that "Luke" is the author of Luke. if the author had "authentic evidence", he or she could have produced it. i see no footnotes by the author telling us his evidence. and again, assumption.
the FACT there is no evidence means that Mr Blaiklock is neither truthful nor a historian.
i WAS trying to sleep, but i'll go on a bit more:
keep in mind that ONLY John mentions the 100 lbs. you see, by the time Joseph would've gotten back, it was the Sabbath, no work is allowed. let's look at the earlier Gospels:
65 years after the time of Jesus, the author of "John" states:
now, i'm going to some straight out and claim "John" to be a liar! i know testimony can vary, but certain "alleged Christian authors" who predate him, disagree. and no, this doesn't come from some "hate site", i have a rather unusual source for this one...
you ready for it?
it's "The Bible!" you see, unlike "John" i have the other 3 Gospels before me and unlike Mr "historian" Blaiklock, I CAN READ!! [which, at the least, should be a prerequisite for some researching an earlier time!
and the kicker:
you see, because of the Sabbath, they had to wait until Sunday!
hearsay upon hearsay, based upon the man who tried to destroy Christianity, and claiming [in Galatians] to have a new Gospel, Saul!
i DO agree that there was an empty tomb, but i disagree that Jesus, pbuh, was ever put in it. remember, the earliest Gospel Mark, in it's earliest form ends at:
source:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark 16&version=NIV
so, according to the earliest written Gospel, Jesus,pbuh, appeared to NO ONE! and the women "said nothing to anyone" about the "young man dressed in a white robe." so then, where did all of the other stories come from?
Josephus never claims to be a witness, writing ca 75-95, AND the parts where he does mention it are considered to be in part, forgery.
i'm sorry Mr Mcmaster, but there is NO contemporaneous evidence, NONE! it's "irrational" to even make your statement.
eyewitness who are confirmed in this? ZERO, but Paul, along with the "author" of Acts, does render conflicting accounts.
so we discount the other 499 witnesses.
we just discredited 499, plus Paul isn't that reliable. thus no 50 hours of testimony. too bad!
be careful when checking propagandist websites!
:wa:
sam
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If that happened, people would say Islam is a copycat religion of Chrisitanity; as it is, people say that Islam has its roots in pre-Islamic times and nothing new was taught; for instance, People worshipped Allah before Muhammad's time and monotheism was the order of the day for the Jew and the Christian before Muhammad's time.
What I wrote was meant to be a parody of Christianity to contrast the foundational roots of Islam with those of Christianity. I guess my point was lost in the details.
This is a good point which gets to our claim that all of the prophets taught basically the same as what we know as Islam today. What is new about Islam though is that previous prophets were sent to a specific people; whereas, Muhammad (saaws) was sent to the whole world. In earlier times prophets were sent to lead people back to the worship of One God after they had deviated from the guidance of prophets before them. Muhammad (saaws) was the seal of prophets and therefore the last one. We Muslims believe that our religion is the same as that taught by Muhammad and that the Quran has been preserved down to the last letter.
Burninglight
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Did you mean 200 or 2000? Go back another 2000 and people lived much longer than today.
There is no evidence that he's not the author.
Paul claims Jesus spoke to him. Why should I doubt it any more or less than Muhammad's angelic visitations?
How do you know?
I don't understand how you discounted 499 witnesses. Sorry I don't follow you here. The death and resurrection cannot be disproved either. We have the Scriptures that came before stating clearly it happened. Those Scriptures have been in circulation for some 1600 years before Muhammad's time. The Bible records the events way more closer to the time frame of the event than the recitations.
claiming 500 witnesses doesn't make it so. i can't take you to court and just claim that i 500 witness against you. i would have to produce them. the earliest complete Qur'an is closer to Muhammad, pbuh, that the earliest complete Bible is to Jesus, pbuh. and there is no evidence of any Christian scriptures 1600 years before Muhammad, pbuh!
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Burninglight
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Okay, point taken.
Well, don't laugh to loud; this doesn't get us anywhere. Someone can say it was NOT Jibril but an impersonating demon; that cannot be proved. Christians believe when the Bible states that Satan can appear as an angel of light to deceive even the elect, and if he can do that, it is no wonder that prophets can appear as ministers of righteousness and not be like Muslims believe, for instance, about the great apostle Paul. Moreover, no one can prove that angels didn't appear to Joseph Smith, and no one can prove that it was Jesus that spoke to Paul on the road to Damacus to persecute more Christians or that it was really Jibril compelling Muhammad to recite. Isn't what I say calling a spade a spade?
What witnesses? How do we know they weren't fooled by an impersonation or how do we know for sure the witnesses were reliable? We can reverse everything that is said about the Bible to the Quran to one degree or another.
Okay, point take again. So, what can I do but try to reason things out the best I can. Since you and I cannot deny that there are authors behind the Bible, we need to ask do the authors pass the test of intending on giving a true and accurate portrayal of Biblical history. IOW, is there any reason or motive for them not ot do so? In the intro to Luke 1 the following is said: [SUP]1[/SUP] Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled[SUP][a][/SUP] among us, [SUP]2[/SUP] just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. [SUP]3[/SUP] With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, [SUP]4[/SUP] so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught. It sounds like Luke the physician is writing this to me with noble intentions!
Next, we need to look at the ability test. For instance, even if the authors intended to portray an accurate preserved account, were they able to do it? How can we be sure that they were able to reliably preserve the record of Jesus' life, death and resurrection for thirty years before it was finally put to print? Well, they didn't have computers back then so they relied on memorization. Rabbis have become famous for being able to memorize the entire OT. With that being said, it would be easy for Jesus' disciples to commit to memory the NT or it was well within their ability like those that memorized the Quran.
Now, we need to look at whether they pass the character test. In other words, is there any moral failures in their lives that might take from their creditablity? I know of none. Were they willing to put to practice what they believed? I think many of them have gone through horrible deaths to preach, teach and live the gospel. Is it logical for someone to do such a thing to spread a tale? Wisdom and logic tell me no!
There are other test we can put them through such as the consistency and many other tests. I will stop with this test since it has been discussed the most on this forum in regards to Dr. Evans & Dr Erhman's debate. Let me share what Simon Greanleaf (Harvard law school professor)said, "There is enough discrepancey to show that there could have been no previous concert among them: and at the same time such substantial agreement to show that they were all independant narrators of the same great transaction" Hans Stier concurs that divergent details suggest creditability and that fabricated accounts harmonize too prefectly. He states, "Every historian is skeptical at the moment when an extraordinary happening is only reported in accounts which are completely free of contradiction"
I can tell you from my experience that people can witness an accident and give a report on it. Everyone that saw it from different angles have a different perspective that may seem like contradiction and are not really. We weren't there to see what they saw. We Christians take it by faith that God is able to preserve what Scriptures were important for us to know. All version of the Bible agree that Jesus died and rose again; the only scriptures that deny this and add confusion and blantant contradiction to what has been reported for over 2000 years is the fairly recent Quran by comparison.
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OK. So through your posts I've gathered that you recognize that there are contradictions in the bible. But it seems that you don't care about any of those and all that matters to you is the resurrection.
Did you not look at the Codex Sinaiticus, the world's oldest known Bible, 1,600 years old, which didn't include parts about the resurrection at all? Did you not read what we've shared with you about Jewish Christians who were alive MUCH CLOSER to the time of Jesus (puh) than all of us now who believed that he was not crucified? And the fishy thing about the Pauline doctrine that you take is that all other letters in opposition to his ideas were destroyed. Why was there any need for that if what he had was the truth?
Did you not read the Bible verses in which the people around Jesus(pbuh) referred to him as a prophet? When he referred to himself as a prophet? When he himself referred to himself as a servant of Allah? Did you not grab a copy of that red letter bible? You have to put in the work. You have to read. You have to investigate. You need to get to know actual Muslims.
Was it logical for Bilal, a Muslim in the time of the Prophet (saws), to continue saying "Only one God," when his pagan slave owner would rip off his clothes and leave him laying out in the burning sun day after day with a heavy, sun-baked rock on his chest in an effort to shut him up and get him to associate partners with Allah just to spread a tale? To allow his slave owners to tie him up and drag him around to make an example out of him for only believing in One God just to spread a tale? Or other slaves who had hot metals poured on their heads for believing in One God just to spread a tale? Or being stabbed in the stomach and dying yet still standing up to go to the prayer just to spread a tale? Or being beaten until temporarily losing eye sight just to spread a tale?
Was it logical for early church leaders to burn people alive? Was it logical for the church to debate on whether or not a woman had a soul? Was it logical for the KKK to hunt down and lynch blacks in America because they believed, and still do, in a tale that they are the superior race? Tell me no now.
OK. Let's be real.
Matthew 27:28
[SUP]28[/SUP] They stripped him and put a scarlet robe on him,
John 19:2[SUP]
2[/SUP] The soldiers twisted together a crown of thorns and put it on his head. They clothed him in a purple robe
Scarlet and purple are not the same color. Which one was it?
Mark 15:25
[SUP]25[/SUP] It was nine in the morning when they crucified him.
John 19:14
[SUP]14[/SUP] It was the day of Preparation of the Passover; it was about noon.
9 a.m. and noon are not the same time. Which one was it?
Luke 23:46
[SUP]46[/SUP] Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” When he had said this, he breathed his last.
John 19:30
[SUP]30[/SUP] When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
So which of these were his last words?
Matthew 27:32[SUP]32[/SUP] As they were going out, they met a man from Cyrene, named Simon, and they forced him to carry the cross.
John 19:17
[SUP]17[/SUP] Carrying his own cross, he went out to the place of the Skull (which in Aramaic is called Golgotha).
So did Simon help him carry it or not?
Matthew 27:51-53
[SUP]51[/SUP] At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split [SUP]52[/SUP] and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. [SUP]53[/SUP] They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.
Yet the other three books of the NT don't mention this. An earthquake is pretty serious event for those 500 witnesses to miss. And there are other discrepancies with what words were said, the amount of angels that appeared and the day that Jesus appeared again. Why would there be so many inconsistencies with such an event like this?
Now if you came to a judge with witnesses saying different things, or telling you things that they didn't witness themselves but heard from someone else, who heard it from someone else, who heard it from someone else but the original person who witnesses it couldn't be identified or verified, a judge would throw your case out of the court and move onto the next one and probably scold you for wasting their time.
Mark 15
[SUP]6[/SUP] Now it was the custom at the festival to release a prisoner whom the people requested. [SUP]7[/SUP] A man called Barabbas was in prison with the insurrectionists who had committed murder in the uprising. [SUP]8[/SUP] The crowd came up and asked Pilate to do for them what he usually did. [SUP]9[/SUP] “Do you want me to release to you the king of the Jews?” asked Pilate, [SUP]10[/SUP] knowing it was out of self-interest that the chief priests had handed Jesus over to him. [SUP]11[/SUP] But the chief priests stirred up the crowd to have Pilate release Barabbas instead.
Now, if you look at the early Greek manuscript of Mark 15, his name is Jesus Barabbas, a name that is conveniently left out and the name Barabbas is not translated for a reason. The Aramahic name Abba means "son of the father". Sounds familiar doesn't it? So then which Jesus was the one who was crucified and which one was let go? We know that early Jewish Christians did not believe that the Jesus was crucified. Many early Christians believed that he was a great prophet and worshipped One God and kept the commandments. And you don't have to look for an outside reference for that. It's in your copy of the bible.
And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain. (157) [An-Nisa:157]
O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs. (171) [An-Nisa: 171]
Mark 12:29
[SUP]29[/SUP] “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one
Never would the Messiah disdain to be a servant of Allah, nor would the angels near [to Him]. [An-Nisa: 172]
John 17:3
[SUP]3[/SUP] Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
John 6:14
[SUP]14[/SUP] After the people saw the sign Jesus performed, they began to say, “Surely this is the Prophet who is to come into the world.”
Be honest with yourself and read the books that we've posted for you too. Never say that you are here trying to learn Islam so you can try to tell people why you rejected it. You don't know what's going to happen to you 40 seconds from now, months from now, years from now. That knowledge is with Allah alone. He has blessed you with a brain, and in the 21st century He has blessed you with an abundance of resources to help you in your quest for knowledge. Pray to God alone to guide you to the truth.
in shaa Allah you will drop all of your preconceived notions about Islam that you learned from the media and allow yourself to be guided. I can see that there is a lot on your brain. Take a step back for a while and like I said, why don't you try hanging out with some Muslims around you to see what they are like AWAY from the internet. Step into reality for a moment. Visit a masjid. Gain some real perspective.
The sun and the moon [move] by precise calculation, (5) And the stars and trees prostrate. (6) And the heaven He raised and imposed the balance (7) That you not transgress within the balance. (8) And establish weight in justice and do not make deficient the balance. (9) And the earth He laid [out] for the creatures. (10) Therein is fruit and palm trees having sheaths [of dates] (11) And grain having husks and scented plants. (12) So which of the favors of your Lord would you deny? (13) [Ar-Rahman (The Most Gracious)]
That's not true. I don't think you've actually taken the time out to read what we've shared with you here. Did you not see what the brother shared with you earlier?
Did you not look at the Codex Sinaiticus, the world's oldest known Bible, 1,600 years old, which didn't include parts about the resurrection at all? Did you not read what we've shared with you about Jewish Christians who were alive MUCH CLOSER to the time of Jesus (puh) than all of us now who believed that he was not crucified? And the fishy thing about the Pauline doctrine that you take is that all other letters in opposition to his ideas were destroyed. Why was there any need for that if what he had was the truth?
Which version of the new testament? How many Christians do you know who have memorized whichever version of the Bible they have? Talk to a Christian in Ethiopia, another Christian in Iowa and another Christian in South Korea, they wouldn't be reciting the same thing. Not to mention these are different languages and translations of it all. Show me a Christian who can recite the entire bible, old testament and new testament in it's original language. It is an insult to the millions of hafiz across the world to even try and make that comparison.
Did you not read the Bible verses in which the people around Jesus(pbuh) referred to him as a prophet? When he referred to himself as a prophet? When he himself referred to himself as a servant of Allah? Did you not grab a copy of that red letter bible? You have to put in the work. You have to read. You have to investigate. You need to get to know actual Muslims.
Is it logical for the hundreds of thousands of Muslim men, women and children in Iraq and Afghanistan to have lost their lives over a tale of hiding weapons of Mass Destruction? Going through horrible deaths simply because they are Muslims? Is it logical for Muslims in the West to be unlawfully thrown in jail, harassed by the police, physically assaulted by fellow citizens and other law enforcement agencies just because we are Muslims?
Was it logical for Bilal, a Muslim in the time of the Prophet (saws), to continue saying "Only one God," when his pagan slave owner would rip off his clothes and leave him laying out in the burning sun day after day with a heavy, sun-baked rock on his chest in an effort to shut him up and get him to associate partners with Allah just to spread a tale? To allow his slave owners to tie him up and drag him around to make an example out of him for only believing in One God just to spread a tale? Or other slaves who had hot metals poured on their heads for believing in One God just to spread a tale? Or being stabbed in the stomach and dying yet still standing up to go to the prayer just to spread a tale? Or being beaten until temporarily losing eye sight just to spread a tale?
Was it logical for early church leaders to burn people alive? Was it logical for the church to debate on whether or not a woman had a soul? Was it logical for the KKK to hunt down and lynch blacks in America because they believed, and still do, in a tale that they are the superior race? Tell me no now.
OK. Let's be real.
Matthew 27:28
[SUP]28[/SUP] They stripped him and put a scarlet robe on him,
John 19:2[SUP]
2[/SUP] The soldiers twisted together a crown of thorns and put it on his head. They clothed him in a purple robe
Scarlet and purple are not the same color. Which one was it?
Mark 15:25
[SUP]25[/SUP] It was nine in the morning when they crucified him.
John 19:14
[SUP]14[/SUP] It was the day of Preparation of the Passover; it was about noon.
9 a.m. and noon are not the same time. Which one was it?
Luke 23:46
[SUP]46[/SUP] Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” When he had said this, he breathed his last.
John 19:30
[SUP]30[/SUP] When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
So which of these were his last words?
Matthew 27:32[SUP]32[/SUP] As they were going out, they met a man from Cyrene, named Simon, and they forced him to carry the cross.
John 19:17
[SUP]17[/SUP] Carrying his own cross, he went out to the place of the Skull (which in Aramaic is called Golgotha).
So did Simon help him carry it or not?
Matthew 27:51-53
[SUP]51[/SUP] At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split [SUP]52[/SUP] and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. [SUP]53[/SUP] They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.
Yet the other three books of the NT don't mention this. An earthquake is pretty serious event for those 500 witnesses to miss. And there are other discrepancies with what words were said, the amount of angels that appeared and the day that Jesus appeared again. Why would there be so many inconsistencies with such an event like this?
Now if you came to a judge with witnesses saying different things, or telling you things that they didn't witness themselves but heard from someone else, who heard it from someone else, who heard it from someone else but the original person who witnesses it couldn't be identified or verified, a judge would throw your case out of the court and move onto the next one and probably scold you for wasting their time.
Mark 15
[SUP]6[/SUP] Now it was the custom at the festival to release a prisoner whom the people requested. [SUP]7[/SUP] A man called Barabbas was in prison with the insurrectionists who had committed murder in the uprising. [SUP]8[/SUP] The crowd came up and asked Pilate to do for them what he usually did. [SUP]9[/SUP] “Do you want me to release to you the king of the Jews?” asked Pilate, [SUP]10[/SUP] knowing it was out of self-interest that the chief priests had handed Jesus over to him. [SUP]11[/SUP] But the chief priests stirred up the crowd to have Pilate release Barabbas instead.
Now, if you look at the early Greek manuscript of Mark 15, his name is Jesus Barabbas, a name that is conveniently left out and the name Barabbas is not translated for a reason. The Aramahic name Abba means "son of the father". Sounds familiar doesn't it? So then which Jesus was the one who was crucified and which one was let go? We know that early Jewish Christians did not believe that the Jesus was crucified. Many early Christians believed that he was a great prophet and worshipped One God and kept the commandments. And you don't have to look for an outside reference for that. It's in your copy of the bible.
And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain. (157) [An-Nisa:157]
O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs. (171) [An-Nisa: 171]
Mark 12:29
[SUP]29[/SUP] “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one
Never would the Messiah disdain to be a servant of Allah, nor would the angels near [to Him]. [An-Nisa: 172]
John 17:3
[SUP]3[/SUP] Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
John 6:14
[SUP]14[/SUP] After the people saw the sign Jesus performed, they began to say, “Surely this is the Prophet who is to come into the world.”
Be honest with yourself and read the books that we've posted for you too. Never say that you are here trying to learn Islam so you can try to tell people why you rejected it. You don't know what's going to happen to you 40 seconds from now, months from now, years from now. That knowledge is with Allah alone. He has blessed you with a brain, and in the 21st century He has blessed you with an abundance of resources to help you in your quest for knowledge. Pray to God alone to guide you to the truth.
in shaa Allah you will drop all of your preconceived notions about Islam that you learned from the media and allow yourself to be guided. I can see that there is a lot on your brain. Take a step back for a while and like I said, why don't you try hanging out with some Muslims around you to see what they are like AWAY from the internet. Step into reality for a moment. Visit a masjid. Gain some real perspective.
The sun and the moon [move] by precise calculation, (5) And the stars and trees prostrate. (6) And the heaven He raised and imposed the balance (7) That you not transgress within the balance. (8) And establish weight in justice and do not make deficient the balance. (9) And the earth He laid [out] for the creatures. (10) Therein is fruit and palm trees having sheaths [of dates] (11) And grain having husks and scented plants. (12) So which of the favors of your Lord would you deny? (13) [Ar-Rahman (The Most Gracious)]
Funny that I read that somewhere else just yesterday.
Burninglight
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I wouldn't say contradictions don't bother me. I'm just wondering if there is an explanation that I haven't noticed. Now, I am going through a study about the resurrection. I didn't know about the 9 am and noon deal. I never noticed that before. It is strange about the different color robes. I favor the ESV over the NIV it says it was the 6th hour and another the third hour, but it still means the same. I just don't know what to make of it. I didn't read the book. I wish you would pull out what you consider to be significant detail. Why do I want to read a book designed to tear down my belief system. If you spoon feed me I;ll look at it all. I honestly don't understand thoswe confliction passages in the Bible does it bother me? Yes, but not enought to convince me that Islam is the order of the day.
You are showing me detail and contradictions that you researched online or could from other sources. I can do that and find contradictions for the Quran, but I read them and feel it is not worth bringing to you attention. I am sure there explianations for them. I just try to look at the big picture not what I would consider to be insignifcant detail. I am going to do a study on the codex Sinaiticus. Have you research the Hafsaph codex? The Big Picture is that Jesus fufills over 300 prophecies in the Bible Isaiah 53 says why he was to die for our trangressions. What difference does it make what time or what color the robe was the point is He was crucified. Now if one book says hHe was and another says He wasn't then you have destryed the crediability of hte NT, but no one has been able to destroy the Bible; it is still the best seller and always will be. Have you read what I wrote about little detail differences historians say it supports the creditablity of the Bible and proves it had different authors. Historians are suspect of something that so prefectly harmonizes. I need some major conflict to discount the Bible not petty details that make no difference to the central theme of the Bible.
I agree with these comments above.
All version of the Bible agree that Jesus died and rose again; the only scriptures that deny this and add confusion and blantant contradiction to what has been reported for over 2000 years is the fairly recent Quran by comparison.
"That's not true. I don't think you've actually taken the time out to read what we've shared with you here. Did you not see what the brother shared with you earlier?" No, I am a little slow that way and not very observant. So if you could post it again, but I am not going to read books on it. I need spoon fed details as to why the crucifixion of our beloved Jesus didn't happen besides the Quran saying so. IOW, what version of the Bible contradicts this fact of history and where. Telling me that the codex book left out some detail of the resurrection is not saying it didn't happen.
All of Christianity hangs on the death and resurrection of Christ! Without that Christianity cannot stand.
Jesus Barabbas I didn't understand that at all.
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Burninglight
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Jesus was born, grew up, and spent his ministry among people who knew Scripture by memory, who debated its application with enthusiasm, and who loved God with all their hearts, all their souls and all their might (Deut. 6:5). http://www.followtherabbi.com/Brix?pageID=2753
Do you know of anyone blind that memorized the Quran?
http://www.bpnews.net/printerfriendly.asp?ID=5466
If someone burned all the Bibles in the world. It can be reproduced because of it being committed to memory by many and to heart. I have memorized quite a bit of Scripture myself in a differnent language than my mother tongue like Spanish as well. Yo puedo aprender tambien.
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