The Americanization of Islam

[Gator]

A85 & PA, thanks for the replies.

u2 syed.

 

[syed saboor]

On the question of homosexuality being wrong for religious reasons or for personal reasons. I would say it is wrong for both. Even hardcore atheist would conclude that morality is inate, to a certain degree. As human beings, we have the precognition, that certain acts are wrong no matter what relgion dictates. For example, abusing little children, like Roman Catholic priests do, is wrong for whatever reason. It doesn't a rocket scientist or a mullah to determine that abusing young children is wrong. We just know it is wrong.
By the same token, homosexuality is contrary to the natural law. It does not produce children. It harms the body. It's interesting to note, even in the former Communist Soviet Union, same-sex relations were punished by terms in jail. One would ask, why would atheist communists bother to punish same-sex relations, given the fact they had no religion to follow, and the answer is simple, even in their common sense, they realized it is wrong. Case closed.

 

[wilberhum]

On the question of homosexuality being wrong for religious reasons or for personal reasons. I would say it is wrong for both. Even hardcore atheist would conclude that morality is inate, to a certain degree. As human beings, we have the precognition, that certain acts are wrong no matter what relgion dictates. For example, abusing little children, like Roman Catholic priests do, is wrong for whatever reason. It doesn't a rocket scientist or a mullah to determine that abusing young children is wrong. We just know it is wrong.
By the same token, homosexuality is contrary to the natural law. It does not produce children. It harms the body. It's interesting to note, even in the former Communist Soviet Union, same-sex relations were punished by terms in jail. One would ask, why would atheist communists bother to punish same-sex relations, given the fact they had no religion to follow, and the answer is simple, even in their common sense, they realized it is wrong. Case closed.

There has never been a shortage of people who are homophobic. But IMHO religions do promote homophobia.

My guess is the less religious some one is the less probable that they have a problem homosexuality.

But of course with humans, there are few commonly held thoughts.

For example, abusing little children, like Roman Catholic priests do

Is that like terrorizing people like Muslims do?

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

On the question of homosexuality being wrong for religious reasons or for personal reasons. I would say it is wrong for both. Even hardcore atheist would conclude that morality is inate, to a certain degree.

Perhaps. It's a topic of much debate among philosophers, so some atheists might agree and some might not. I think morality is something that has evolved with us for survival purposes. After all, a species whose members refrain from killing each other is more likely to survive.

As human beings, we have the precognition, that certain acts are wrong no matter what relgion dictates. For example, abusing little children, like Roman Catholic priests do, is wrong for whatever reason.

I would ask you to retract that hateful remark. I have very few good things to say about the Catholic church myself, but your comment is as objectionable as someone saying: "He blew himself up, like Muslims do".

It doesn't a rocket scientist or a mullah to determine that abusing young children is wrong. We just know it is wrong.

This argument is what's known as the appeal to deontological ethics. It's a fairly strong position, but it can give rise to difficult paradoxes when one person must die to save another, or other situations of that kind. You can read more about it here.

By the same token, homosexuality is contrary to the natural law.

Whose existence and / or binding nature is uncertain.

It does not produce children.

Most of the adult sexual couplings that occur do not produce children. Are they all ethically wrong too? An infertile couple will never have children by themselves, so is it wrong for them to have sexual intercourse?

It harms the body.

Could you explain a little more about exactly what sort of harm you are thinking of? It's also very common for heterosexual sex to have harmful results for health - STDs do not only affect gay people.

It's interesting to note, even in the former Communist Soviet Union, same-sex relations were punished by terms in jail.

The same was true in the more developed parts of the world until relatively recently. Some of us have moved on; others have not.

One would ask, why would atheist communists bother to punish same-sex relations, given the fact they had no religion to follow, and the answer is simple, even in their common sense, they realized it is wrong.

Perhaps because when those laws were created the legislators were going along with the common prejudice of the time.

Case closed.

Case very much re-opened, methinks.

Peace

 

[MustafaMc]

Is that like terrorizing people like Muslims do?

I strongly resent that statement!:heated:

 

[czgibson]

Greetings MustafaMc,

You're an intelligent chap, so I'm sure you'll understand that when wilber says:

Is that like terrorizing people like Muslims do?

He doesn't actually mean it. He's responding in kind to the idiotic thinking that says something like:

abusing little children, like Roman Catholic priests do

Can you see how those statements both use the same kind of logic, and are both as stupid as each other?

Peace

 

[MustafaMc]

Greetings MustafaMc,

You're an intelligent chap, so I'm sure you'll understand that when wilber says:

He doesn't actually mean it. He's responding in kind to the idiotic thinking that says something like:

Can you see how those statements both use the same kind of logic, and are both as stupid as each other?

Peace

Yes, I see the analogy, but this is a HOT-button for me and I don't take it in joking manner. Sorta like a guy passing through security to get on a plane and joking that he has a bomb or gun. Just like this would certainly get one arrested, so also one gets me riled up by saying such non-sense.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Yes, I see the analogy, but this is a HOT-button for me and I don't take it in joking manner.

And that's kinda the problem, no?

Sorta like a guy passing through security to get on a plane and joking that he has a bomb or gun.

I'm afraid I don't see the analogy in this case.

Just like this would certainly get one arrested, so also one gets me riled up by saying such non-sense.

Do you accept that the original comment is just as offensive about Catholics as the later one is about Muslims? Or are we in an irony-free zone here?

Peace

 

[wilberhum]

I strongly resent that statement!:heated:

Have a read of what czgibson had to say. He was spot on.

My statement was just as stupid, narrow minded, and bigoted as the statement I was addressing. :hiding::hiding::hiding:

this is a HOT-button for me and I don't take it in joking manner

If you find what I said offensive, who don't you find this offensive?

abusing little children, like Roman Catholic priests do

Are you only offend if the disrespect is aimed at what you respect?

See, that's the difference between you and me.
I'm offended if disrespect is aimed at what anyone respects. (Assuming it is not deserved)

 

[MustafaMc]

Do you accept that the original comment is just as offensive about Catholics as the later one is about Muslims? Or are we in an irony-free zone here?

Yes, I accept that the one about the Catholic priest is offensive and unacceptable, too. This is actually illustrative in that I believe that the frequency of pedophilic Catholic priests is very low - very much like I believe the frequency of terroristic Muslims is very low. However, it makes the point that a few rotten apples spoil the whole bunch.

My statement was just as stupid, narrow minded, and bigoted as the statement I was addressing. :hiding::hiding::hiding:

OK, I accept that you meant it only in jest, but still....

Are you only offend if the disrespect is aimed at what you respect?

See, that's the difference between you and me.
I'm offended if disrespect is aimed at what anyone respects. (Assuming it is not deserved)

No, I too am offended by disrespect directed towards others. Remember that I grew up in and live in Mississippi - a most racially bigoted place.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Hey all, now that we've talked about the proclivities of various forms of sexual expression and our various feelings with regard to it and the use of various labels that are seen as both false and insulting, anyone want to talk about the Americanization of Islam? Or should I look for that in some other thread?

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Hey all, now that we've talked about the proclivities of various forms of sexual expression and our various feelings with regard to it and the use of various labels that are seen as both false and insulting, anyone want to talk about the Americanization of Islam? Or should I look for that in some other thread?

It's all germane to the discussion, and this latest little tangent was actually initiated by the thread starter, so if you're concerned it's off-topic, maybe you should take it up with him.

In any case, what's wrong with a discussion moving through different phases? There's a lot to cover, you know!

Peace

 

[جوري]

lol..I believe the guest of the hour had his account disabled?! not sure if there is much value to this thread.. though I generally tend to believe that there is a wave in the world that wants a certain dominant tide and will crush all that is in its way..

sort of like everyone wearing a flapper dress in the twenties, dancing the Charleston in the thirties then sporting sideburns in the seventies... it is a tidal wave that engulfs all that is in its path and if you resist it, then suffer the consequences ..

I don't believe however that such wil engulf Islam and americanize or westernize it, what it might create is a schism, so that true Muslims stand on one side and the fickles on the other.. it is congruous with the signs of the end... the more I look at the world detached from it, the more I see everything happening right on schedule, not even Nostradamus could have been this precise!


peace!

 

[MustafaMc]

... what it might create is a schism, so that true Muslims stand on one side and the fickles on the other.. it is congruous with the signs of the end... the more I look at the world detached from it, the more I see everything happening right on schedule, not even Nostradamus could have been this precise!

Sister, I am not sure what you mean by this. Perhaps you can explain who the "fickles" are.

I don't see so much the Americanization of Islam as much as I see the Americanization of Muslims the world over. I see Muslims come to USA mostly to make money and to have a better material life than they had in their country. I definitely don't see that they come here to spread the message of Islam. Generally, Muslims are becoming more materialistic and striving more for this dunya than they are the Hereafter.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Greetings,



It's all germane to the discussion, and this latest little tangent was actually initiated by the thread starter, so if you're concerned it's off-topic, maybe you should take it up with him.

In any case, what's wrong with a discussion moving through different phases? There's a lot to cover, you know!

Peace

I was just interested in the thread based on its title. And you may think that it is all germane, but I guess I'm too dense to see it as much more than a chase down a rabbit trail. Seriously, why does one suggest that Islam is being "Americanized"?

Perhaps that might be true of Muslims living in the USA, but on what basis would one apply that moniker to the rest of the world?

Also, is there something wrong with an American version of Islam? There seem to be uniquely Iranian, Saudi, Turkish, and Malaysian verisions of Islam, why not an American version?

Does the OP suggest that one cannot be both a true American and a true Muslim at the same time? What of Muslims who serve in various governmental offices in the USA, are they being poor Muslims because of it? Or should the rest of America suspect that they are not truly serving those they are placed there to serve?

If there is something inheritantly wrong with the Americanization of Islam, would there not also be something inheritantly wrong with the Pakistanization of Islam, or any other adoption that Islam made to any other culture from which it did not spring? When Islam became the dominant religion of Spain, it both influenced it and was influenced by it, are you suggesting that this was bad for Islam? Surely you do not suggest that Islam should not be spread around the world, but should be confined to the region in which it first emerged? But if it is to interact with the world, it needs to understand that the world is going to interact with it as well. It is always a two-way street. Should Isalm withdraw and isolate itself from the world it seeks to influence? Does it not cease being Islam even more by behaving that way?

Lastly, perhaps what the OP objects to isn't actually the Americanization of Islam at all? But rather, something else at work in the world that is acting on both Islam and America at the same time. Namely, I see a globalization of culture in general. Islam and America are both effected by this. Further, as has been true throughout the history of mankind, self-interest, self-aggrandizement, comfort, security, an ability to provide basic wants and even luxuries, prestige, and power seem to be the things that people around the world are seeking, be they Americans or Muslims.

 

[جوري]

Sister, I am not sure what you mean by this. Perhaps you can explain who the "fickles" are.

I don't see so much the Americanization of Islam as much as I see the Americanization of Muslims the world over. I see Muslims come to USA mostly to make money and to have a better material life than they had in their country. I definitely don't see that they come here to spread the message of Islam. Generally, Muslims are becoming more materialistic and striving more for this dunya than they are the Hereafter.

My post wasn't meant about Muslims in America or the west.
Actually it was meant in general.. try to watch ART,
an arabic chanel as you can see, and sure you'll know exactly what I am talking about. I have met very conservative people in America that sported blue aprons dresses and white head bonnets and they too would gasp at the lewdeness.

perhaps when it is projected at you all the time, all you can do is shrug your shoulder and ignore it? but there are people from birth that are imbued with the sentiment that this is liberation and freedom.
Fact is they only take the filth and leave temperance, proper judgement and progression in areas that matter, at least seemed to have mattered to them at some point, now long neglected.
our best of scholars are imprisoned in countries that violate every human right known to man and I am not just talking about gitmo, I am talking Egypt, syria..Everyone has an opinion to suit the tides, people who are observant are considered pariahs, again I urge you to watch an Egyptian movie where there is incessant portral of Muslims as backward, idiotic, undereducated etc.

In the end the observant will be at one end, the nonobservant will be at the other, you already see it with people like 'wfa sultan, sulman rushdie' etc
it is all in concert with how the end of times were narrated by prophet Mohammed (p)

Abu Nadhrah says: "We were sitting in the company of Jabir bin Abdullah radhiyallahu anhu when he said: 'Soon the people of IRAQ will neither receive any food (grain) nor any money.'" We asked, "Why would such a thing happen?" He replied, "Because of the non-Arabs." (i.e they will prevent food from going into Iraq, in the form of "sanctions" to this day.) He then said: "Soon the people of Shaam (SYRIA) will neither receive any money nor grain." We asked as to why this would happen. He replied: "Because of the Romans (christians)."

The Minor Signs of the Last Day

Abu Musa Ash'ari radhiyallahu anhu narrates that Rasulallah sallallahu alayhi wasallam said, "Qiyamah will come...

1. When it will be regarded as a shame to act on Quranic injunctions.
2. When untrustworthy people will be regarded as trustworthy and the trustworthy will be regarded as untrustworthy.
3. When it will be hot in winter (and vice versa).
4. When the length of days is stretched, i.e. a journey of a few days is covered in a matter of hours.
5. When orators and lecturers lie openly.
6. When people dispute over petty issues.
7. When women with children come displeased on account of them bearing offspring, and barren women remain happy on account of having no responsibility of offspring.
8. When oppression, jealousy, and greed become the order of the day.
9. When people blatantly follow their passions and whims.
10. When lies prevail over the truth.
11. When violence, bloodshed and anarchy become common.
12. When immorality overtakes shamelessness and is perpetrated publicly.
13. When legislation matters pertaining to Deen is handed over to the worst elements of the Ummat, and if people accept them and are satisfied with their findings, then such persons will not smell the fragrance of Jannat
14. When the offspring become a cause of grief and anger (for their parents).


The following is part of a lengthy Hadith narrated by Abdullah Ibn Mas'ood radhiyallahu anhu when he inquired from Rasulallah sallallahu alayhi wasallam about the Signs of Qiyamah.
1. Music and musical instruments will be found in every home.
2. People will indulge in homosexuality.
3. There will be an abundance of illegitimate children.
4. There will be an abundance of critics, tale-carriers, back- biters and taunters in society.
5. People will establish ties with strangers and sever relations with their near and dear ones.
6. Hypocrites will be in control of the affairs of the community and evil, immoral people will be at the helm of business establishments.
7. The Masjid will be decorated, but the hearts of the people will be devoid of guidance.
8. The courtyards of Masjids will be built beautifully and high mimbars (pulpits) will be erected.
9. Gangsters and evil people will prevail.
10. Various wines will be consumed excessively.


Auf bin Malik radhiyallahu anhu says: I came to Rasulallah sallallahu alayhi wasallam while he was in his skin tent during the Tabuk expedition. He said to me, "Count six things before the advent of Qiyamah:
1. My death
2. The conquest of Jerusalem
3. Mass deaths amongst you people, just as when sheep die in large numbers during an epidemic
4. Abundance of wealth to such an extent that if a person were to be given a hundred Dinars he will still not be satisfied
5. General anarchy and bloodshed, that no Arab household will be spared from it
6. Then a life of peace as a result of a peace agreement between you and the Banil Asfaar
(Romans) which they will break and attack you with a force consisting of eighty flags and under each flag will be an army of twelve thousand men." (Hadith: Sahih Bukhari).


IRAQ and SYRIA

Abu Nadhrah says: "We were sitting in the company of Jabir bin Abdullah radhiyallahu anhu when he said: 'Soon the people of IRAQ will neither receive any food (grain) nor any money.'" We asked, "Why would such a thing happen?" He replied, "Because of the non-Arabs." (i.e they will prevent food from going into Iraq, in the form of "sanctions" to this day.) He then said: "Soon the people of Shaam (SYRIA) will neither receive any money nor grain." We asked as to why this would happen. He replied: "Because of the Romans (christians)."

CONCEITED PEOPLE:

Abbas radhiyallahu anhu narrates that Rasulallah sallallahu alayhi wasallam has said, "Islam will spread far and wide, across the seas. Horses will cross the land and seas in the cause of Jihaad. Then a time will come wherein a group of people will emerge which recites the Quraan. They will claim,
'We have recited the Quraan and is there anyone who understands the Quraan better than us? There is NO ONE more proficient than us in the study of the Quraan.'

Then Rasulallah sallallahu alayhi wasallam asked the Sahaba, "Do you see any good in their claims?" The Sahaba replied, "No". Rasulallah sallallahu alayhi wasallam said, "But these conceited claimants will be from my Ummah and will be the fuel of the Fire."


The Major Signs of the Last Day

A. The occurrences before the Major Signs:

GENOCIDE

A man from Abu Sufyaan’s progeny massacres descendents of Nabi (S.A.W) and rules over Syria and Egypt.

WAR

A major war between Muslims and Christians: Half the Christian army will sign a peace treaty with the Muslim army, while the second half of the Christian army remains the common enemy.

ISTANBUL CONQUERED BY CHRISTIANS

The enemy half of the Christian army conquers Constantinople (Istanbul), Turkey.

ISTANBUL RECONQUERED JOINTLY BY MUSLIM AND CHRISTIANS

The Muslims and the good half of the Christian army conquer Constantinople together, against the enemy Christians. Thereafter, a Christian will say the victory was due to the cross, and the Muslim will say it was due to Islam. A battle between both sides will ensue, and the Muslim Ruler will be martyred.

SYRIA CONQUERED BY CHRISTIANS

The two Christian armies reunite, conquering Syria.

CHRISTIAN DOMINATION

Christians dominate the world up to Khaiber (near Madinah), and they will pursue Muslims with 80 flags, with 12,000 men under each flag.

MUSLIMS AWAIT Imaam Mahdi

TOTAL ECLIPSE

A total eclipse of the sun and moon will occur in Ramadhaan, prior to Imaam Mahdi’s emergence.

IMAAM MAHDI EMERGES

At age 40, Imam Mahdi appears in Makkah, then flees to Madinah.

B. The Major Signs (i.e. events after the emergence of Imam Mahdi)

MUSLIM ARMY MARCHES

The army of Mansoor from Khurasaan will head towards Makkah to aid Imam Mahdi. They will win many battles on the way. No force will be able to stop them. They will carry black flags.

SUFYAANI ARMY SWALLOWED BY THE EARTH.

The Sufyaani army (an Anti-Muslim force) from Syria singles out Imam Mahdi for execution. On the way to Makkah, they get swallowed into the ground. A second Sufyaani army is created with 960,000 men (of 80 nations).

CONFRONTATION IN SYRIA

Imam Mahdi and the Muslim army go to Syria to confront the Christians. The Christians, before the battle, will ask Muslims for the return of their prisoners-of-war. The Muslims will refuse. The battle will begin. One-third of Imam Mahdi’s army will flee (their repentance will not be accepted), one-third will be martyred, and one-third will gain victory over the Christians.

MUSLIM ARMY UNDER IMAAM MAHDI CONQUERS PALESTINE JIHAAD ON INDIA

A jamaat of Muslims wages Jihaad on India and be successful.

SYRIA UNDER MUSLIM RULE

Imam Mahdi returns to Syria and establishes Muslim rule over the lands he passes.

ANIMOSTIY RIFE AMONGST THE PEOPLE

At this time, Muslims will be weak and there will be very few pious people.

3 RUMORS OF EMERGENCE OF Dajjaal ("Anti-Christ")... 3 YEARS OF DROUGHT

Before the emergence of Dajjaal there will be three years of drought. The first year, the skies will retain 1/3 of its water, the second year 2/3, and all of its water the third year.

DAJJAAL APPEARS

Dajjal appears. His followers, the Yahudis, will number 70,000 and will wear expensive silk attire and carry double edged swords.
Eisa alayhis salaam (JESUS) APPEARS
Eisa alayhis salaam descends during the lifetime of Imaam Mahdi.

DAJJAL KILLED AT THE GATE OF HUDD

Eisa alayhis salaam kills Dajjal at the Gate of Hudd, near an Israeli airport, in the valley of “Ifiq.” The final war between the Yahudi's will ensue, and the Muslims be victorious.

TOTAL PEACE

With the death of Dajjal, all wars will end. Jihad will be stopped; peace, harmony, and tranquility will be on earth. The earth will produce abundant crops and fruit. The people will follow Islam.

ISA RECEIVES REVELATION

The revelation tells that the Yajooj and Majooj will soon be released and the believers should be taken to Mt. Toor (Sinai).

Yajooj And Majooj ("Gog and Magog") RELEASED

The Yajooj and Majooj surge forth in large numbers. They destroy everything in their path in their effort to conquer the world. They will be released in two groups.

YAJOOJ AND MAJOOJ REACH JERUSALEM

When they reach Mount Khamrin in Jerusalem, they will proclaim to have conquered the world. Then the will shoot arrows into the sky to conquer the heavens. The arrows will return blood stained.

HARDHSHIPS ON MOUNT TOOR

Scarcity of provisions and hardships will afflict the Muslims. Eisa alayhis salaam and the Muslims will pray for the removal of the calamity.

YAJOOJ AND MAJOOJ KILLED BY INFECTIONS

Their prayers were answered and the Yajooj and Majooj develop boil infections, causing them to burst simultaneously as a result.

EARTH FULL OF STENCH OF CORPSES

Eisa alayhis salaam and his companions pray again and huge birds are sent to pick up the Yajooj and Majooj corpses and dispose of them in Nahbal (according to Tirmidhi), the ocean or elsewhere.

PEACE ON EARTH

It will rain for forty days and the earth will be cleansed. Muslims will burn the bows and arrow of Yajooj and Majooj for 7 years. Life will be peaceful while Hadhrat Eisa alayhis salaam is alive. The earth will be bountiful. Hadhrat Eisa will live 19 years after marriage.

ISA PASSES AWAY AND BURIED NEXT TO MUHAMMED (S.A.W.)

OTHER LEADERS FOLLOW AFTER EISA alayhis salaam

Jahjaan from Qahtaan, from a tribe in Yemen, will rule as the next Khalifa. Muquad, from a tribe of Banu Tamim will also be a deputy.

SOCIETY SLOWLY DECAYS AND KUFR SETS IN

The Final Signs of Qiyaamah:

1 THE CAVING IN OF THE GROUND
The ground will cave in: one in the east, one in the west, and one in Hejaz, Saudi Arabia.
2 THE FORTY DAY SMOKE/FOG
Fog or smoke will cover the skies for forty days. The non-believers will fall unconscious, while Muslims will be ill (develop colds). The skies will then clear up.
3 THE NIGHT OF THREE NIGHTS
A night three nights long will follow the fog. It will occur in the month of Zil-Hajj after Eidul-Adha, and cause much restlessness among the people.
4 THE RISING OF THE SUN IN THE WEST
After the night of three nights, the following morning the sun will rise in the west. People’s repentance will not be accepted after this incident.
5 THE BEAST FROM THE EARTH APPEARS
One day later, the Beast from the earth will miraculously emerge from Mount Safaa in Makkah, causing a split in the ground. The beast will be able to talk to people and mark the faces of people, making the believers’ faces glitter, and the non-believers’ faces darkened.
6 THE BREEZE FROM THE SOUTH
A breeze from the south causes sores in the armpits of Muslims, which they will die of as a result.
7 DESTRUCTION OF THE KA’ABA
The Ka’aba will be destroyed by non-Muslim African group. Kufr will be rampant. Haj will be discontinued. The Qur’an will be lifted from the heart of the people, 30 years after the ruler Muquad’s death.
8 FINAL SIGN OF QIYAAMAH: FIRE IN YEMEN
The fire will follow people to Syria, after which it will stop.

COMMENCEMENT OF QIYAAMAH
Some years after the fire, Qiyaamah begins with the Soor (trumpet) being blown. The year is not known to any person. Qiyaamah will come upon the worst of creation.
http://www.islamictorrents.net/details.php?id=12672&page=0#startcomments


peace!

 

[thirdwatch512]

Not all Christian churches condemn homosexuality. Nor do all branches of Judaism/Islam. I don't think their stance is compliant with the books they believe in, but nevertheless...
Christians say we are to hate the sin not the sinners. I don't know what's the islamic/jewish ruling on this matter.

Judaism - put the gays to death IF they have gay sex. But according to most Rabbi's, one is not gay for having same sex attractions. Rather, one is gay if they act upon them.

Islam - If the guys are married to women and cheat on their wives with each other, they are to be stoned. If they are to unmarried guys who do it with each other, they are to receive 100 lashes and exile for one year. (please, any muslims correct me if I am wrong.)

But I think generally speaking, islam is similar to Judaism, in that many muslims believe that it is not having the ATTRACTION that is bad, but rather acting it out.

 

[thirdwatch512]

Let's just a theocratic Islamic state, and we will all be happy. Finally, as a heterosexual Muslim man I will be able to live in peace.

I do not oppose to that, just do not do it in my country(USA) or in Europe. But hey, suadi arabia, indonesia, malaysia, egypt, qatar, iraq, morocco, all the muslim nations... Merge and form the caliphate for all i care! Just give the christians and others their rights, and do not impose your laws on me in my country!!

Contrary to what most think, I have always been a proponent of the establishment of the calipha, so that muslims who want to live in a true shariah do not have to try to impose it on us in the west, but rather they can have their own nation they can move to!

 

[Grace Seeker]

You understand that Christianity isn't any more open to these things than Islam is?

The form of Christianity practiced in the western nations is more tolerant of what within the Christian scriptures be called immoral behavior and does not respond with execution, but people practicing such behaviors are (except among those who have become so liberal as to no longer look to the scriptures as authoritative) are to be cast out of the church. It's just about has harsh as Sharia law.

Perhaps this is why when the OP sees such practice beginning to be tolerated in Islam he wishes to call it the "Americanization of Islam". However, I would like to suggest that what he sees is mud splattered on America and falsely assumes that American must be the source of any such mud that then gets splattered on Islam.

I would like to suggest that both perhaps are experiencing the results of something that goes back to even before the founding of the USA, all the way back to the Renaisance, and especially to the Enlightenment. This view of allowing people to do what they wish, and simply accepting it was most certainly adopted by America, but it originated in the teachings of the European Enlightenment. Whether it is a good or bad idea I will leave for another time, but I think that perhaps the OP has his finger pointed at just another culture that was simply previously impacted by this other way of looking at the world before it began to similarly impact Islam. BTW, I see the same thing at work in China and other countries that are not so influenced by America as by commerce.

 

[Keltoi]

Perhaps a better word would be secularization of Islam.