The Bible Came from Arabia

[Al-manar]

I've read some of his work, and Kamal Salibi has some valid points - but goes wrong in some places in my opinion.

I think his argument either to be taken entirely or rejected entirely,there is no in between......

I used to whenever I read a work to appreciate the valid points and reject the far fetched ones .... but the case with Saleebi is different ,away from his linguistic analysis (which seems at times interesting) ,I don't find his arguments to be valid,supported by proofs...

either to take the bible scene to the south of Arabia(as he suggests) or remain up there where all think it to be....

Feel free to find out where this RED SAND HILL is located.....any input is highly appreciated.

It is located according to another authentic Hadith by the road to Alaqsa mosque....

Anas b. malik reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: I happened to pass by Moses on the occasion of the Night journey(to Al-Aqsa Mosque) near the red mound (and found him) saying his prayer in his grave. (Sahih muslim,Book #030, Hadith #5858)

feel free to suggest the prayer to be spiritual ,but the location is clearly somewhere near Al-Aqsa Mosque not south of Arabia...


thanx Bro scimi for your input (that is informative and related to the topic)

I will use the Quran and hadith as the 'gold standard' and reject what disagrees with it

exactly ,so far applying that gold standard (let alone the standard of archaeology,bible narratives) , it seems for me that there is nothing to agree with the writer .....

:wa:

 

[Scimitar]

Assalamu alaikum, Brother Scimi. I appreciate your input. I was intrigued by the possibilities presented by this book, but I have not come to a conclusion as to how much of it to believe. I will use the Quran and hadith as the 'gold standard' and reject what disagrees with it as you indicated you have as well. Your posts are most usually very interesting and bring a different perspective from most others. Jazak Allahu khayran.

Walakum Salaam.

Here's the thing about Kamal Salibi. He's not the first to hypothesise from biblical context, the place names and locations of sites, for example (not that these cannot be refuted - they have been, soundly too - but not conclusively, this is where people get confused a lot). Kamal also makes some pretty brash claims about historical timelines. For example - Jesus AS was around 3-400 yrs before the BC calender? wasn't even a resident of Jerusalem, travelled to Makkah and took the ark of the covenant from an Arab... come on. "Shrooms" come to mind... very trippy indeed.

I'm not denying that his M.O is good, because it is. he uses alternative methodology in order to determine other "possibilities" - that's all. My problem is with his lack of impartial bias in his works. This is probably why he was shunned by the larger historic community... I mean, even Graham Hancock has a better rep than Kamal did in these circles. Kamal passed away last September.

I think his argument either to be taken entirely or rejected entirely,there is no in between......

I used to whenever I read a work to appreciate the valid points and reject the far fetched ones .... but the case with Saleebi is different ,away from his linguistic analysis (which seems at times interesting) ,I don't find his arguments to be valid,supported by proofs...

either to take the bible scene to the south of Arabia(as he suggests) or remain up there where all think it to be....

Yes. One thing he doesn't take into consideration at all is that during biblical times - the boundaries of Arabia were not set... infact, the boundaries of Arabia stretched up to Jerusalem. The boundaries of nations set in place today, were carved up by the British between 1918 and 1932. And boundaries had shifted before then too, namely in the late 1700's. He does make some very vital errors in some of his works.

Originally Posted by Scimitar
Feel free to find out where this RED SAND HILL is located.....any input is highly appreciated.
It is located according to another authentic Hadith by the road to Alaqsa mosque....

Anas b. malik reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: I happened to pass by Moses on the occasion of the Night journey(to Al-Aqsa Mosque) near the red mound (and found him) saying his prayer in his grave. (Sahih muslim,Book #030, Hadith #5858)

feel free to suggest the prayer to be spiritual ,but the location is clearly somewhere near Al-Aqsa Mosque not south of Arabia...


thanx Bro scimi for your input (that is informative and related to the topic)

Jazak-Allah khair akhi, and No, I agree, it was a literal prayer. I am aware of the hadeeth you posted too. But the location in modern day is said to be lost. Allah knows best.

However, at this point - I want to drop the penny. I posted info regarding mount Sinai... about its real location (Jabal al Laws, Madyan, Arabia). Why is this so significant?

I learnt a few years back, that whenever we get answers to questions, we learn to ask better questions. Try this for size, ok? All and every reputable biblical scholar, as well as Jewish rabbi, knows that Sinai is in Arabia... So why have they remained silent???

Here is something to consider - if you can follow my train of thought. If not, I will let you know what that "train of thought" is in my next post:

This Hadith is god-smack in the face.....revealing the Sinai Mountains as SAFE HAVEN from Bani Adam's greatest Fitnah.....the DAJJAL; there leaves little doubt about the importance of this sacred site.

قال صلى الله عليه وسلم (انذركم المسيح _اي الدجال _يمكث في الارض ,اربعين صباحا يبلغ سلطانه كل منهل لا يأتي أربعة مساجد :الكعبه ومسجد الرسول ومسجد الاقصى والطور)اخرجه احمد

Prophet Mohammad صلى الله عليه وسلم said: "I warn you regarding the Dajjal Messiah. He will remain on Earth for 40 mornings. His dominion will reach everywhere. He will not come to 4 mosques: the Ka'ba, the Messenger's Mosque, Al-Aqsa Mosque, and theTur." (Musnad Ahmad)


<< important note - even the Al-Aqsa Masjid [area of Sham As-Shareef] is also off limits to this One Eyed La'een >>

Mount Tur... if you watch the vids I posted, you will clearly see where that mount is...

Scimi

 

[Al-manar]

Here's the thing about Kamal Salibi. He's not the first to hypothesise from biblical context, the place names and locations of sites

That is true ..

Here is something to consider - if you can follow my train of thought. If not, I will let you know what that "train of thought" is in my next post

I'm looking forward to your next post ,I need to get fuller picture of your thoughts in the matter.. and I share you mine as well...

:wa:

 

[Scimitar]

Ok, here is my 2 dirhams on the whole Sinai issue.

For thousands of years, Christians, as well as Jews, have been making a pilgrimage to Sinai - to a fake site, located in the Sinai Peninsula, Egypt.

All the Biblical Scholars and priests as well as Jewish Rabbi's know that Sinai is in Arabia... why have they kept silent?

let's track back to 1918. The Balfour declaration was signed by the Brits, the Yanks and the French in order to recognise an independent state of Israel in Palestine - at the behest of mass displacement of people, genocide which is still going on and blatant disregard for human rights... the reason (excuse) given? The land they carved out as Israel, is the promised land of the Jews - The sites of antiquity are all from their scriptures (Torah / OT) so these Jews have a "right" upon the land.

Enter Kamal Salibi, whose real MO remained undiscovered until we recognise the direction his misinforative analysis takes us. Kamal sponsored the view that most of the biblical accounts of history are attached to Arabia and not Jerusalem. Let's pause here for a second and move on to another point:

Saudi Arabia's royal house is in bits at the moment. Behind the scenes there is much unrest amongst the royals, as they are all aware of the prophecies from hadeeth which foretold of a King whose name would that of an animal (King Fahd whose name means Leopard). The hadeeth goes on to mention that after he passes, another will take his place and his name will be Abdullah (The current King and Cutodian of the two holy masjids)... and after he passes, another will take his place from the family, but the people will be against him - at this time, the arrival of dajjal will be close.

Note, that in the Quran there are specific verses which seem to be directed at the custodians of the haramain - regarding the issue of them making water available for pilgrims and expanding the site - the verse goes on to mention that these favours will be of no use if they had not ruled with fear of Allah in their hearts... the current rulership of Hejaaz is very reflective of these ayahs. I'm sorry I do not have references to hand.

Why is the state of Saudi's royal house so important here? We must realise that the Brits placed the Sauds in power over Hejaaz, it was the Brits who carved out the boundaries of Arabia, and other surrounding countries early last century... what was their plan? The sauds were placed in power to be subservient puppets to the British, and later the Americans - as was planned very early on during the time of Hempher's travels to Arabia some time before. There is a whole bunch of rich history into the house of Saud - and it's very dark.

Notice, the House of Saud have erected a very tall fence and a guard tower over the perimieter of the REAL Mount Sinai... why? To keep the location hidden until when?...

Look, I spell it out simply for you. Millions to billions of Jews and Christians have gone on a pilgrimage to Sinai - not knowing that the site is a fake... the real one is in Arabia.

If the west ever need a reason to attack Arabia, they can use the same reason they did for attacking Palestine - "it's biblically related to our history". Exept this time, it's not just Jews who will cause the ruckus... but the Christians too. Just think how conned they feel that they have been lied to all this time, and how angry the Jewish and Christian world will be at being lied to for not hundreds... but thousands of years. This could quite possibly be the worlds most well kept religious con of all time...

Kamal Salibi was a disinfo agent who I suspect worked for the zionist agenda in propagating the idea that Arabia is crypto Christian land, meaning that the Jews have a right to it - by their flawed intellect and reasoning. It is clear to see in his works that the agenda he pushed while he was alive, was pro zionist, if you could read between the lines.

Scimi

 

[Al-manar]

For thousands of years, Christians, as well as Jews, have been making a pilgrimage to Sinai - to a fake site, located in the Sinai Peninsula, Egypt.

we agree to follow "the gold standard (Quran&sunna) " in our discussion isn't it?

According to the Quran ,the mountain where Moses received revelation, where the children of Israel stayed for years before going east to (sham) is called El-Tor..

Holy Quran 28:46 Nor wast thou at the side of (the Mountain of) TUR when we called (to Moses). Yet (art thou sent) as Mercy from thy Lord, to give warning to a people to whom no warner had come before thee: in order that they may receive admonition.

2:93 And remember We took your covenant and We raised above you (the towering height) of Mount (Sinai): (Saying): "Hold firmly to what We have given you, and hearken (to the Law)": They said:" We hear, and we disobey:" And they had to drink into their hearts (of the taint) of the calf because of their Faithlessness. Say: "Vile indeed are the behests of your Faith if ye have any faith

19:52 And we called him from the right side of Mount (Sinai), and made him draw near to Us, for mystic (converse).

28:29 Now when Moses had fulfilled the term, and was travelling with his family, he perceived a fire in the direction of Mount Tur. He said to his family: "Tarry ye; I perceive a fire; I hope to bring you from there some information, or a burning firebrand, that ye may warm yourselves."

also mentioned in 2:63 ,4:154 ,20:80 ,28:46 ,52:1

where is that (Tur) mountain?

Holy Quran 95:2 :And by (Mount) Tur of Sinai!

The Quranic scene of the exodus is obviously up there in Sinai....

note: that mountain is mentioned in the quran 12 times , in other words that is the most mentioned place on Earth ever in the Quran ... that makes me really curious to visit it ....

I'm now in a visit to my country (Egypt), and think seriously going there ,it is just a long trip from the city I live in....

to add, Egypt is the most mentioned country in the Quran as well ....

unless we accept the theory of Saleebi ,turning it into a small town in South Arabia .....:sunny:

:wa:

 

[Al-manar]

let's expose the man's fallacies one by one:


Fallacy No1 (the exodus) :


The Quranic view on the exodus?

1- It was from Egypt (north east of Africa), they went East ,had obstacle of sea water , they stayed by a mountain El-Tor which is located in Sinai ,where Moses received revelation,where they took the covenant, received the law etc etc etc...

all that is mentioned in the Quran in the clearest terms ...


Saleebi's (the writer) view on the exodus? ?

That Abraham with his wife Sara moved after famine to a small town called (msrma) located by Abha the capital of Asir province in south Saudi Arabia

and his seed settled there till the exodus ,which took the route up north till Jeddah then north etc......


this is the map he used in his book... that line like the snake is the suggested route (from south to north) and the red sea on the left ...

those who challenge me to refute the man's theory(I doubt they even bothered reading him carefully)..... well that is just the beginning....









to be continued
......

 

[Pygoscelis]

Well this has been a fun read.

These events may not have taken place where they are said to? They could have taken place in a whole other set of locations? And that is coming from those who believe in them and hold them holy and hte revealed truth etc?

One question is that i noticed you referring to atheist scholars looking at this. I have to wonder why they would. To atheist scholars this would be rather like arguing over where the Iliad and Odyssey specifically took place or where King Arthur fought some of his legendary battles.

Also, it is rare on here that I see the tribalism set aside and muslims trash talking other muslims. That is usually reserved for the rest of us ;D Perhaps we could finally all rise above that stuff and focus on the topic instead of board members.

 

[Al-manar]

One question is that i noticed you referring to atheist scholars looking at this. I have to wonder why they would. To atheist scholars this would be rather like arguing over where the Iliad and Odyssey specifically took place or where King Arthur fought some of his legendary battles.

you are right. but let me clarify a point ...the work by the atheist (the way he wrote shows he doesn't belong to any religion) tried to refute the man with the historical ,archaeological findings available ...

his intention wasn't to say the bible is right and the man is wrong......

he just tried to say that the man theory ,deleting the whole biblical,Israeli activities from the location is believed to have been, to another location south of Arabia, is wrong... he thinks archaeology and written history Egyptian,Assyrian etc ... puts the man's theory into serious trouble....

my previous post doesn't depend on the work of the atheist . It depends on my believe in the Quran as the word of God ......

it is rare on here that I see the tribalism set aside and Muslims trash talking other Muslims. That is usually reserved for the rest of us ;D .

and that is something unacceptable for me, non-Muslims shouldn't be trashed,for being merely non-Muslims.

Perhaps we could finally all rise above that stuff and focus on the topic .

I have decided that time ago ,I sent my message to the mods ,and have no more to say ....

we never had a conversation Pygoscelis before .....

what kind of stuff you usually read in the board ?

 

[Muslim Woman]

:wa:

....and all of a sudden she jumped in the middle of the discussion,

br. please calm down.

It's ok for a participant to take part in the discussion . I request all Muslim sisters & brothers to show more patience to each other and also to our non Muslim participants . We can't agree with each other but harsh words should be avoided.

May Allah increases us in patience.

 

[MustafaMc]

If we can bring the discussion back to the topic at hand and leave personal vendettas behind, I believe we can all learn something in this thread.

The book by Salibi makes some astounding claims that are either true or they are false. I doubt that there is enough evidence to ascertain the veracity of the claims without extensive archeological excavations. Again the linguistic evidences presented are admitedly circumstantial and should be taken with a grain of salt at best, but I believe the topic deserves a fair discussion. It seems that certain members have already made up their mind and are set on proving the book is false. The jury is still out for me, but I trust Brother Scimi's judgement and his concerns of truthfulness due to my positive interactions with him and respect for his views. If the book is false then the author either made an innocent mistake and made inaccurate conclusions based on his own limited understanding or he intentionally put forward misinformation (lies) for some ulterior, hidden agenda. I admit that the later may very well be the case, but then the question becomes, "Why would someone make those claims and what are they ultimately trying to achieve in doing so?" Regardless, I believe this is an extremely important topic and deserves to be discussed in a civil manner. If the Quran and hadith can be shown conclusively to place events on an actual map relative to known places, then that evidence will have primary importance. I am interested in hearing points and counterpoints as I am striving to learn.

 

[Muhaba]

that is quite interesting.

it's true that Juresalam is where it is. it's not like it's supposed to be some place else. it's also true that Prophet Ibrahim travelled first from his homeland, after he was cast out by his father, and later to Makkah where he left his wife and child near the house of Allah.

another fact is that the jews, after leaving Egypt, travelled a lot and for 40 years they were lost, unable to find the Holy land because of their sins. So all that travelling may have happened in the areas named in teh book, which may be why there are names similar to those in the Bible.

And Allah knows best.
what is the significance of this discovery? will it help Islam in some way?

 

[جوري]

what is the significance of this discovery? will it help Islam in some way?

I think perhaps it might help the Jews call dibs on more areas in the middle east..
One thing I do wonder about is if the world map looked then as it does now.. Allah swt knows best..

 

[~Raindrop~]

Perhaps we could finally all rise above that stuff and focus on the topic instead of board members.

Thank you, Pygoscelis.

Please focus on the topic. If you seem to be having problems with another member, please report it to the mods so we can deal with it accordingly.
We may disagree with each other at times, but that is expected. There is no need to resort to personal attacks. Either debate in a civilised manner, or leave it altogether.

Please heed this warning. Failing to do so will result in warnings/infractions being issued.

جزاك الله خيرا

 

[MustafaMc]

what is the significance of this discovery? will it help Islam in some way?

If it is true, then it gives a better understanding of where ancient Biblical events took place. These events often have parallels in the Quran. If it is false, then it brings to light that someone is trying to spread misinformation for some ulterior motive.

I think perhaps it might help the Jews call dibs on more areas in the middle east..

Yes, this thought occured to me as well that Israel may start making claims on West Arabia due to supposed links to their ancestry. However, if it is true, it calls into question Israeli claims to Palestine for the same reason. My opinion is that the American Indian has much more claim to the entirety of USA than does Israel to any part of the Middle East. The claims made based on the Bible declaring a 'Promised Land' to the children of Abraham should hold absolutely no geo-political weight today. If anything it clarifies that the descendants of Abraham through Ishmael did in fact possess this land.

 

[MustafaMc]

Thank you, Pygoscelis.

Please focus on the topic.

Actually, I thought that he was trying to bring the discussion back to the opening topic. Although a few inappropriate comments were made, they pale in comparison to those made by others.

 

[Al-manar]

peace

Thank you mods for deleting some off topic posts ,I just wonder why her initial offensive posts remained?!


the prophet said:

Narrated Anas: Allah's Apostle said, "Help your brother, whether he is an oppressor or he is an oppressed one. People asked, "O Allah's Apostle! It is all right to help him if he is oppressed, but how should we help him if he is an oppressor?" The Prophet said, "By preventing him from oppressing others."


Narrated 'Aisha:
The Quraish people became very worried about the Makhzumiya lady who had committed theft. They said, "Nobody can speak (in favor of the lady) to Allah's Apostle and nobody dares do that except Usama who is the favorite of Allah's Apostle. " When Usama spoke to Allah's Apostle about that matter, Allah's Apostle said, "Do you intercede (with me) to violate one of the legal punishment of Allah?" Then he got up and addressed the people, saying, "O people! The nations before you went astray because if a noble person committed theft, they used to leave him, but if a weak person among them committed theft, they used to inflict the legal punishment on him.

friendship is fine ,but laws and justice are above friendship, isn't it?...

another fact is that the Jews, after leaving Egypt, travelled a lot and for 40 years they were lost, unable to find the Holy land because of their sins. So all that travelling may have happened in the areas named in the book, which may be why there are names similar to those in the Bible..

peace

I don't think that is possible,you know what is the man's theory?

he claim that they parted not from the African Egypt (Msr) ,but from the southern small town of Saudi Arabia (Msrma).......

he says the African Egypt of the bible and Quran not the Egypt of the exodus (which for him a town in south Arabia).....

in the Quran there are ample proofs that Egypt is the Egypt we know,the route of the exodus was east not north ,they settled in Sinai by the mountain Tur ,received the law,the covenant there , etc etc etc...

the man's argument indeed in trouble .........

and I will show next posts more of his shortcomings ...

Regards

:wa:

 

[MustafaMc]

Quran 12:99 And when they came in before Joseph, he took his parents unto him, and said: Come into Egypt safe, if Allah will!

Falamma dakhaloo AAala yoosufa awa ilayhi abawayhi waqala odkhuloo misra in shaa Allahu amineena

I assume that the Arabic 'Misra' equates to 'Egypt' in the same way that 'Yusuf' does to 'Joseph'. What Islamic or archeological evidence is there that 'Misra' is actually Egypt where the Pyramids are located?

 

[Al-manar]

The proofs that 'Misra' is actually Egypt where the Pyramids are located?


First :

let's see what before and after Islam surrounding nation to Egypt called it with



In the Amarna letters (1350s – 1330s BC) during the Eighteenth dynasty of ancient Egypt. it is called Misri.

In syrian Ugaritic they called it Msrm

In Assyria and babylon was called Musri

In Arabic (before and after Islam)Misr

In Hebrew Misráyim

some theories have been suggested to the origin of the name ,including that the name coming from one of Noah's descendants through Ham,who is called Mizraim and is supposed to have settled there and the Egyptians are descendant of him ....


one thing to note,that though Arabs call Egypt misr , the word Misr itself has a meaning in Arabic ,it does mean (a big city with all means of living) ....

note the folowing verse:


Holy Quran 2:61
atastabdiloona allathee huwa adna biallathee huwa khayrun ihbitoo misran fa-inna lakum ma saaltum


most translators translated the word (misr) as city,town ...


eg; Yusuf Ali

Holy Quran 2:61He said: "Will ye exchange the better for the worse? Go ye down to any town, and ye shall find what ye want!"

Shakir
Holy Quran 2:61 He said: Will you exchange that which is better for that which is worse? Enter a city


with that sense we can call any city (misr) .......

but we shouldn't forget that the Arabic name (misr) which means ( City) has nothing to do with the name (misr) they gave to Egypt......

I have just quoted the non Arab nations who called it with similar names ....


more next post

peace

 

[Muhaba]

Oh I didn't realize that they were changing the names of areas like that? Misr is egypt, that's definately a well-known historical fact. both western and islamic history proves it. pharoahs were in egypt and the mummy of the pharoah who drowned in the time of Prophet Moses (AS) is also supposedly still in egypt.

Prophet Joseph went to egypt and his decendents lived there and ruled there for many centuries. then at the time of Prophet Musa (AS), the children of israel were persecuted for the very reason that their people had ruled over the Egyptians for so long. This is even proven from Surah Momin in which a person from the people of Pharoah remind his people that Prophet Joseph had come to them. and that shows that Prophet Joseph was indeed in the same place as the pharoah and everyone knows today that pharoahs were in egypt.

 

[Muhaba]

I think perhaps it might help the Jews call dibs on more areas in the middle east..
One thing I do wonder about is if the world map looked then as it does now.. Allah swt knows best..

they always have some ulterior motive for everything they do.

historical maps are really interesting to study.