The Bible Came from Arabia

[Pygoscelis]

they always have some ulterior motive for everything they do.

historical maps are really interesting to study.

I think you may be on to something there, but I doubt that is the whole of it.

 

[جوري]

Actually, I thought that he was trying to bring the discussion back to the opening topic. Although a few inappropriate comments were made, they pale in comparison to those made by others.

Although I enjoy the topic you started and would have loved to explore it from the angles you presented or if possible appropriately referenced opposing views. I find the smarmy, unctuous and ingratiating nature of one member here intolerable and beyond that the misuse and erroneous application of hadith to suit a venomous personal agenda precluding from further participation.

I am actually glad the matter is brought before the mods so they can better dissect what seeps in (in whatever form) inflammatory or not to condition the thought process of others or to insert frank deviant ideologies in it!

 

[Muhaba]

one thing to note,that though Arabs call Egypt misr , the word Misr itself has a meaning in Arabic ,it does mean (a big city with all means of living) ....

note the folowing verse:


Holy Quran 2:61
atastabdiloona allathee huwa adna biallathee huwa khayrun ihbitoo misran fa-inna lakum ma saaltum


most translators translated the word (misr) as city,town ...


eg; Yusuf Ali

Holy Quran 2:61He said: "Will ye exchange the better for the worse? Go ye down to any town, and ye shall find what ye want!"

Shakir
Holy Quran 2:61 He said: Will you exchange that which is better for that which is worse? Enter a city


with that sense we can call any city (misr) .......

but we shouldn't forget that the Arabic name (misr) which means ( City) has nothing to do with the name (misr) they gave to Egypt......

I have just quoted the non Arab nations who called it with similar names ....


more next post

peace

i wanted to add that this verse says misran which is indefinate noun so it means "a city" or "any city." the tanwin at the end of the noun shows that it is indefinate noun(not proper noun). misr is the country. misran is "a city."

Furthermore, the interpretation of the Quran is not just based on the words, but on the interpretations of the Final Prophet (SAW) and the sahaba after him. it's not right to take a word and reinterprete it how we like just because it could've meant that thing.

 

[Al-manar]

i wanted to add that this verse says misran which is indefinate noun so it means "a city" or "any city." the tanwin at the end of the noun shows that it is indefinate noun(not proper noun). misr is the country. misran is "a city."

Exactly but I have 2 notes

1- some classic Arabic scholars(and some English translations) interpreted it as referring to (Egypt),you know why?

in spite of their acceptance of the the reading with the tanwin ,(other reading,less common without tanwin)...... they believe that tanwin could be added in that case and still the meaning (Egypt)

look at the classic tafsirs eg; I know you can read Arabic and (I'm sure you can translate"if you wish" the following in English better than me)


Tafsir Alqurtubi wrote:

. وقالت طائفة ممن صَرَفها أيضاً: أراد مِصْرَ فرعون بعينها. استدلّ الأوّلون بما ٱقتضاه ظاهر القرآن من أمرهم دخول القرية، وبما تظاهرت به الرواية أنهم سكنوا الشام بعد التِّيه. وٱستدلّ الآخرون بما في القرآن من أن الله أوْرث بني إسرائيل ديار آل فرعون وآثارهم، وأجازوا صرفها. قال الأخفش والكسائي: لخفّتها وشبهها بِهنْد ودَعْد؛ وأنشد:
لم تَتَلَفّعْ بفضل مِئزرها دَعْدٌ ولم تُسْقَ دَعْدُ في العُلَبِ


also Tafsir Alrazi
وفي مصحف عبد الله وقرأ به الأعمش: { ٱهْبِطُواْ مِصْرًا } بغير تنوين كقوله: { أَدْخِلُواْ مِصْرًا } واختلف المفسرون في قوله: { ٱهْبِطُواْ مِصْرًا } روي عن ابن مسعود وأبي بن كعب ترك التنوين، وقال الحسن: الألف في مصراً زيادة من الكاتب فحينئذ تكون معرفة فيجب أن تحمل على ما هو المختص بهذا الاسم وهو البلد الذي كان فيه فرعون وهو مروي عن أبي العالية والربيع، وأما الذين قرؤوا بالتنوين وهي القراءة المشهورة فقد اختلفوا، فمنهم من قال: المراد البلد الذي كان فيه فرعون ودخول التنوين فيه كدخوله في نوح ولوط، وقال آخرون: المراد الأمر بدخول أي بلد كان كأنه قيل لهم ادخلوا بلداً أي بلد كان لتجدوا فيه هذه الأشياء، وبالجملة فالمفسرون قد اختلفوا في أن المراد من مصر هو البلد الذي كانوا
فيه أولاً أو بلد آخر

In other words we can call Egypt "misran",with tanween, in that verse...

still I believe ,if we add the context factor, to the language factor, the meaning "City" is stronger.....


2- I should have added the English letters represented "tanwin" when I put the word "misran,City" in English....thank you for the note...

but away from the verse we can't say "misran" means "city" and stop...
we should add,that depends on its location in the sentence .... it could be "misrun" or "misren" as well...

eg;

إِزَارَيْنِ وَمَا مِنَّا أَحَدٌ أَيُّهَا السَّبْعَةُ الْيَوْمَ إِلا أَمِيرٌ عَلَى مِصْرٍ مِنَ الأَمْصَارِ

to sum up and get back to the point related to the topic , all the neighboring nations to Egypt used to call Egypt a name whatever variations had, still has to include a root "MSR" ......


Thank you for your descent, informative post ,I put you and sis Insaanah in the list of those well informed in written Arabic, I feel really proud of you both ...

I know there could be others with that level ,but I had no discussion yet with other members that proved me having your level...

Barak Allahu feeki

 

[Scimitar]

The jury is still out for me, but I trust Brother Scimi's judgement and his concerns of truthfulness due to my positive interactions with him and respect for his views. If the book is false then the author either made an innocent mistake and made inaccurate conclusions based on his own limited understanding or he intentionally put forward misinformation (lies) for some ulterior, hidden agenda. I admit that the later may very well be the case, but then the question becomes, "Why would someone make those claims and what are they ultimately trying to achieve in doing so?" Regardless, I believe this is an extremely important topic and deserves to be discussed in a civil manner. If the Quran and hadith can be shown conclusively to place events on an actual map relative to known places, then that evidence will have primary importance. I am interested in hearing points and counterpoints as I am striving to learn.

JazakAllah khair for the kindness in your words akhi. I too am struggling to learn, and connect some rather elusive dots. But with no teacher to study under, and not even being a student of knowledge - all the info I find has been trusted to me by God almighty, He gave me my brain and heart with which to percieve this realtiy we find ourselves in. I find it very hard at times and am prone to sinking into minor bouts of depression, often mulling over ideas and possibilities in a saddened state - until something clicks and the chase starts all over again.

I guess you could call me reckless, simply because I do not use conventional methodology in my approach to these studies. Like I said, not even a student of knowledge - more like a moron who thinks he's onto something... But you know, I can't shake that "I could be onto something" feeling, so I have to just curb the conscience at times, and tell myself "I may be a moron, but then again... I may not be".

Allah knows best.

I think perhaps it might help the Jews call dibs on more areas in the middle east..
One thing I do wonder about is if the world map looked then as it does now.. Allah swt knows best..

Yup, the Judeo-Christian Zionist alliance to be quite frank - they're the ones calling the shots for both, the Christians and the Jews. As for maps, they are changing even as we speak...

...The world has changed a lot in the past 100 years. Go back further still and you'll be surprised at the powers that came and went thru the course of history. Kings fell to foreign powers, bloodlines became diluted, nations were destroyed, re-built and re-destroyed, the boundaries of new countries were set, again and again, names of countries changed, so did their customs and traditions, religions came and went and trade dictated the fashions and curiosities of the peoples... in short, dunya happened.

I think you might find this vid interesting (please mute the audio - its proper rubbish):

Scimi

 

[Muhaba]

Exactly but I have 2 notes

1- some classic Arabic scholars(and some English translations) interpreted it as referring to (Egypt),you know why?

in spite of their acceptance of the the reading with the tanwin ,(other reading,less common without tanwin)...... they believe that tanwin could be added in that case and still the meaning (Egypt)

look at the classic tafsirs eg; I know you can read Arabic and (I'm sure you can translate"if you wish" the following in English better than me)


Tafsir Alqurtubi wrote:

. وقالت طائفة ممن صَرَفها أيضاً: أراد مِصْرَ فرعون بعينها. استدلّ الأوّلون بما ٱقتضاه ظاهر القرآن من أمرهم دخول القرية، وبما تظاهرت به الرواية أنهم سكنوا الشام بعد التِّيه. وٱستدلّ الآخرون بما في القرآن من أن الله أوْرث بني إسرائيل ديار آل فرعون وآثارهم، وأجازوا صرفها. قال الأخفش والكسائي: لخفّتها وشبهها بِهنْد ودَعْد؛ وأنشد:
لم تَتَلَفّعْ بفضل مِئزرها دَعْدٌ ولم تُسْقَ دَعْدُ في العُلَبِ


also Tafsir Alrazi
وفي مصحف عبد الله وقرأ به الأعمش: { ٱهْبِطُواْ مِصْرًا } بغير تنوين كقوله: { أَدْخِلُواْ مِصْرًا } واختلف المفسرون في قوله: { ٱهْبِطُواْ مِصْرًا } روي عن ابن مسعود وأبي بن كعب ترك التنوين، وقال الحسن: الألف في مصراً زيادة من الكاتب فحينئذ تكون معرفة فيجب أن تحمل على ما هو المختص بهذا الاسم وهو البلد الذي كان فيه فرعون وهو مروي عن أبي العالية والربيع، وأما الذين قرؤوا بالتنوين وهي القراءة المشهورة فقد اختلفوا، فمنهم من قال: المراد البلد الذي كان فيه فرعون ودخول التنوين فيه كدخوله في نوح ولوط، وقال آخرون: المراد الأمر بدخول أي بلد كان كأنه قيل لهم ادخلوا بلداً أي بلد كان لتجدوا فيه هذه الأشياء، وبالجملة فالمفسرون قد اختلفوا في أن المراد من مصر هو البلد الذي كانوا
فيه أولاً أو بلد آخر

In other words we can call Egypt "misran",with tanween, in that verse...

still I believe ,if we add the context factor, to the language factor, the meaning "City" is stronger.....


2- I should have added the English letters represented "tanwin" when I put the word "misran,City" in English....thank you for the note...

but away from the verse we can't say "misran" means "city" and stop...
we should add,that depends on its location in the sentence .... it could be "misrun" or "misren" as well...

eg;

إِزَارَيْنِ وَمَا مِنَّا أَحَدٌ أَيُّهَا السَّبْعَةُ الْيَوْمَ إِلا أَمِيرٌ عَلَى مِصْرٍ مِنَ الأَمْصَارِ

to sum up and get back to the point related to the topic , all the neighboring nations to Egypt used to call Egypt a name whatever variations had, still has to include a root "MSR" ......


Thank you for your descent, informative post ,I put you and sis Insaanah in the list of those well informed in written Arabic, I feel really proud of you both ...

I know there could be others with that level ,but I had no discussion yet with other members that proved me having your level...

Barak Allahu feeki

thank you for the compliments.

I'm still trying to understand what this thread is about.

I got the following three questions:
Was Prophet Joseph (AS) in Misr (Egypt) or some other place?
Was Prophet Musa (AS) in Misr (Egypt) or some place else?
Were Prophet Joseph and Prophet Musa (alaihim assalaam) in the same place?

It is well-known from history that Prophet Musa (AS) was in egypt and not some place else. pharoahs are in egypt.
it is known from the Quran (Surah Momin) that Prophet Joseph and Prophet Musa (AS) were in the same place, since a man from the people of Pharoah said that before Musa (AS) Prophet Joseph had come to them.
thus, Prophet Joseph (AS) was in Egypt and not some other place. The misr in Surah Yusuf refers to Egypt and not some place else.

now the question of whether misran (with tanwin) means city or can it mean egypt? in arabic language proper nouns can also have tanwin such as the name Muhammad. in the Quran also you will see, for example, muhammadan, muhammadun, muhammadin (with tanwin). But arabic has rules regarding which proper nouns have tanwin and which can't have tanwin. I'll have to look them up in the book Sharh Ibn Aqeel. but i remember something about proper masculine nouns having tanwin.

as for the word misr, in the Quran when used as a proper noun, referring to Egypt, it doesn't have tanwin. (see surah Yusuf). but when referring to city, in Surah Al-Baqarah, it has tanwin. so i guess that shows that with tanwin means city and without tanwin means Egypt.

And Allah knows best.
Insha-Allah i'll try to get the rules for tanwin from the arabic book asap.

 

[MustafaMc]

I think you might find this vid interesting (please mute the audio - its proper rubbish):

Assalamu alaikum, Brother Scimi. It seems you and I have a lot in common. The video was quite amazing and the pertinence to the thread seems to be that the book has geo-political implications. It would be interesting to see how the map will change over the next few years. I expect that the fragmentation into many nation-states will coalesce as we approach the end of time and the expansion of the NWO into a One World Government. There may yet remain the illusion of nation-states, but for all practical purposes be One Nation uder masonic/zionist rule.

 

[Scimitar]

They'll get close. Very close... but their plan is not fool proof, whereas Allahs plan is better. And yes, seems we're often on the same page with our train of thought, masha-Allah. I really do enjoy bouncing ideas back and forth between us akhi

Scimi

 

[Pygoscelis]

I think you might find this vid interesting (please mute the audio - its proper rubbish):

This is really cool! Do you know what program he was using to make it go? I'd like to keep a copy of this without the audio.

 

[Pygoscelis]

There may yet remain the illusion of nation-states, but for all practical purposes be One Nation uder masonic/zionist rule.

Or under corporate rule. I think nation states are becoming less and less relevant as corporations become more and more.

 

[Scimitar]

This is really cool! Do you know what program he was using to make it go? I'd like to keep a copy of this without the audio.

No, I don't akhi, but I have removed the annoying music and I just rendered it in 720p and stretched it to fit the screen in full. Here you go. (all you need now is youtube downloader and you can DL it. It's saved in .mp4 format so it's viewable on most devices)

interesting to note: look at Arabia from the year 1870 onwards: Look what country has power over it! Meh!!! Just like I said. Saud's have bowed to the Brits, and still bow to the Brits...

Scimi

 

[Pygoscelis]

Good stuff! Thanks!

 

[MustafaMc]

Quoting, "If the relevant Biblical texts are read as they ought to be, in their original consonantal Hebrew, without regard to any misleading tradition about them, there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that ancient Judah was anywhere other than where I have located it. The onomastic proof is so overwhelming that it seems hardly to warrant archaeological substantiation. Nevertheless, as I mentioned at the offset, the issue is unlikely to be resolved to everyone's satisfaction before archaeological evidence is produced to support my claim. In the meantime, it would seem quite in order to suggest that on the basis of what information I have adduced, Judah is, at least, far more likely to have been in West Arabia than in Palestine."

The book is based upon reinterpreting consonantal Hebrew texts in a manner that associates various passages of the OT with place names. The claim is that Hebrew became a dead language aound 5th century B.C. and that those who vocalised the consonantal text did so with major errors in meaning. He states in the introduction, "As my argument rests almost entirely upon assumption that the Hebrew Bible has been consistently mistranslated...Therefore, in order to understand the Hebrew Bible, we must either accept the traditional Jewish interpretation of its texts or seek guidance from closely related Semitic languages which are still alive... I reject the former course in favour of the latter, because the Jewish scholars who interpreted and vocalised the Hebrew Bible between the sixth and tenth century A.D. did not know Hebrew as a spoken language, and presumably based their reconstruction of it on informed guesswork."

If one can imagine an analogy 1) if the Quran was left without vowel and vocalization marks (as in the original compiled under Abu Bakr's leadership), 2) the Quran was not vocalized as part of the Islamic prayer, 3) the early Muslims were captured and exiled to a foreign land, 4) Arabic ceased to be spoken for 1,000 years, 5) Islam became revitalised, 6) the ancient consonantal Arabic was preserved mostly intact but with errors in understanding, 7) after many years of not being vocalised, the Quranic texts were marked only in modern times with vowel marks according to traditional interpretation. If this had happened, is there room for errors in meaning to creep in, particularly if there was a vested interest in doing so?

 

[Al-manar]

If the book is false then the author either made an innocent mistake and made inaccurate conclusions based on his own limited understanding or he intentionally put forward misinformation (lies) for some ulterior, hidden agenda..

the second is suggested by Dr feras, he suggests that the agenda of the author is to defend the bible narratives against the historical,archaeological evidence that challenge the biblical historical inaccurate information...

by shifting the geographical scene of the bible to west Arabia would ,get the bible out of the accusations of historical inaccuracy ......

If you note ,Saleebi's arguments all affirming that every historical single bit of information in the bible is true ,it is just the readers who misunderstood it !!!!


bro MustafaMc quoted the writer (hope he go ahead quoting more) :

Quoting, "The onomastic proof is so overwhelming that it seems hardly to warrant archaeological substantiation. Nevertheless, as I mentioned at the offset, the issue is unlikely to be resolved to everyone's satisfaction before archaeological evidence is produced to support my claim.

what if the historical,archaeological evidence refutes that claim?
the major problem with the writer's theory,is his dishonest skipping of the historical,archaeological besides Biblical,Quranic evidence that refutes his theory...


eg; he wrote

there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that ancient Judah was anywhere other than where I have located it(west Arabia).

there are at least a dozen of proofs supports that ancient Judah is where we knew it...

that proof is just a beginning:

to read Sennacherib's account of his military invasions of Phoenician and Palestinian coasts and cities.....

read the article and then let's add more to the argument

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sennacherib#Sennacherib.27s_account


peace

 

[Tyrion]

unctuous and ingratiating nature

I come here to escape from schoolwork for a bit and immediately find myself in need of a dictionary... Great. :

(please mute the audio - its proper rubbish)

I'd like to keep a copy of this without the audio.

Hey now, whats with all the hate for an orchestral version of "Layla"?



Also, just to make sure this post can't be called completely off topic and/or useless, I should say that I found this to be a fairly interesting discussion...

 

[جوري]

I come here to escape from schoolwork

How did your finals go?

 

[Tyrion]

How did your finals go?

Thankfully they went pretty well this year, although I had to start summer classes almost immediately afterwards so there wasn't much time for respite... Thanks for asking btw. :

 

[Muhaba]

so what i got from that book was that masculine proper nouns (names of people) such as Muhammad and Zaid have the tanwin at the end. i think other masculine proper nouns (city names) don't have tanwin. Likewise, nonarabic men's names also don't have tanwin at the end, like Ibrahim but am unsure about this. I believe i had read something about it but where in the book, i don't know.

 

[Al-manar]

so what i got from that book was that masculine proper nouns (names of people) such as Muhammad and Zaid have the tanwin at the end. i think other masculine proper nouns (city names) don't have tanwin. Likewise, nonarabic men's names also don't have tanwin at the end, like Ibrahim but am unsure about this. I believe i had read something about it but where in the book, i don't know.

peace

you can read the grammatical rule in the following quotation :

لمصر استعمالان في اللغة
الأول عام يرادف كلمة بلد كأن تقول (فتح المسلمون العالم مصرًا بعد مصر ٍ )
الثاني خاص يطلق على البلاد الواقعة شمال شرق إفريقيا كأن تقول (مات الشافعي في مصر َ )

أما الاستعمال الأول فإنه ينوّن إذ لا علة تمنعه من التنوين (الصرف)
وأما الثاني فأنت بالخيار فلك ألا تنونه أي تمنعه من الصرف للعلمية والتأنيث ،
لأن هذا الاسم صار علما على مكان معين وهو أيضا مؤنث إذ تقول مصر كبيرة لا كبير وجميلة لا جميل ، وهذا هو الغالب في أعلام الأمكنة ،
ولك أن تصرفه (تنوّنه ) لأن العلم المؤنث الثلاثي الساكن الوسط يجوز صرفه ومنعه مثل ( هنْد ، دعْد )
أما العلم الأعجمي الثلاثي الساكن الوسط فيجب صرفه ، أي تنوينه ، فلا يعامل معاملة الممنوع من الصرف للعجمة والعلمية ، بل يخرج عن قاعدة الممنوع من الصرف ، فنقول : جاء هودٌ / سلمت على لوط ٍ


so linguistically, the word (misran) in the verse under discussion ,even though has tanween,it possibly means (Egypt),that is why some English translations render the word as (Egypt)...

and Allah knows best ..