The Bible -- What is it?

The Bible is Constantine's paid for tool for social manipulation and control.
It is basically a consolidation of all the older religios.

He basically bought Christianity for a few pounds of gold and military support to crush pagan resistance. He and the Orthodox Church he bought burnt unwanted scriptures and killed those that did not tow the new line.
Gnostic history seems to prove this as well as all the surviving scriptures that they could not burn. They also took a reasonable Jewish philosophy and corrupted it to suit their wants. A study of the old history of Satan shows this.

Just my view of course.

Regards
DL
 
And you are entitled to your view. But I am curious about one thing that you mention:
A study of the old history of Satan shows this.
Where does one find a copy of this "history of Satan" that you mention to study it?
 
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And you are entitled to your view. But I am curious about one thing that you mention:
Where does one find a copy of this "history of Satan" that you mention to study it?

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_sat2.htm

And

Prince of Darkness Is Misunderstood

He's not the enemy of God, his name really isn't Lucifer and he isn't even evil. And as far as leading Adam and Eve astray, that was a bad rap stemming from a case of mistaken identity. "There's little or no evidence in the Bible for most of the characteristics and deeds commonly attributed to Satan," insists a UCLA professor with four decades in what he describes as "the devil business." In "Satan: A Biography" (Cambridge Press), Henry Ansgar Kelly puts forth the most comprehensive case ever made for sympathy for the devil, arguing that the Bible actually provides a kinder, gentler version of the infamous antagonist than typically thought.

"A strict reading of the Bible shows Satan to be less like Darth Vader and more and more like an overzealous prosecutor," said Kelly, a UCLA professor emeritus of English and the former director of the university's Center for Medieval and Renaissance Studies. "He's not so much the proud and angry figure who turns away from God as [he is] a Joseph McCarthy or J. Edgar Hoover. Satan's basic intention is to uncover wrongdoing and treachery, however overzealous and unscrupulous the means. But he's still part of God's administration."

The view runs in opposition to the beliefs held by many Christians and others about key religious concepts like original sin and the nature of good and evil. "If Satan isn't really in opposition to God and he isn't really evil, then that means the fight between good and evil isn't an authentic part of Christianity," Kelly said. "What I'm saying will be scandalous to some people." But what would you expect of someone's whose 72nd birthday fell this year on June 6 (06-06-06) and who felt disappointed when nothing momentous occurred that day? Actually, Kelly is no stranger to bubble-bursting. After digging deep into the history of Valentine's Day, he pronounced 20 years ago that he had not only uncovered the holiday's origins but that it should be celebrated in May, not February.

Still, if Kelly could be considered scandalous, it's not because he doesn't know any better. Kelly started his academic career at a Jesuit seminary and was ordained in four of the seven holy orders on the way to the priesthood, including the order of exorcist. "It was at that time that I started my campaign to rehabilitate the devil - to deliver him from evil, as it were," Kelly said. "Satan: A Biography" is the culmination of more than 40 years of research into the devil and religious and cultural traditions that have grown up around him. The book is Kelly's third on the topic.

When it comes to the Old Testament, Kelly insists that Satan's profile is considerably lower than commonly thought and significantly less menacing. By Kelly's count, Satan only appears three times in the 45 books that make up the pre-Christian scriptures, the best known being in the Book of Job. On each occasion, Satan is still firmly part of what Kelly calls "God's administration," and his activities are done at the behest of "the Big Guy." But his actions aren't evil so much as consistent with the translation of "devil" and "satan," which literally mean "adversary" in Greek and Hebrew, respectively. "His job is to test people's virtue and to report their failures," Kelly said.

Perhaps most surprising is not the figure Satan cuts, but his notable absences in the Old Testament. In the Bible's first reference to Lucifer, for instance, Satan doesn't appear - even by implication, Kelly points out. "'Lucifer' is Latin for light-bearer," he said, and was the name given to the morning star, or the planet Venus. Originally written in ancient Hebrew, the passage, on face value, refers to the tyrannical Babylonian king who boasts of his conquests but who is "about to be cast to the ground." Kelly insists there's nothing more to the reference than an apt use of metaphor, but the third-century Christian philosopher Origen of Alexandria argued in his best known work, "On First Things," that the reference applied to Satan. "Origen says, 'Lucifer is said to have fallen from Heaven,'" Kelly explained. "'This can't refer to a human being, so it must refer to Satan.' Subsequent church fathers found this reasoning persuasive, and so did everyone who followed them."

Ironically, the only mentions of Lucifer in the New Testament - and there are three of them - refer to Jesus, Kelly said. "Jesus is called 'Lucifer' or 'the morning star' because he represents a new beginning." Another prominent omission in the Old Testament, Kelly said, can be found in Genesis. "Nobody in the Old Testament - or, for that matter, in the New Testament either - ever identifies the serpent of Eden with Satan," Kelly said. "The serpent is just the smartest animal, and he's motivated by envy after being jilted by Adam for Eve."

Kelly traces the correlation of Satan and the serpent to not long after the New Testament was completed. In his "Dialogue With Trypho," the second-century Christian martyr Justin of Samaria first argued that Satan appeared as a serpent to tempt Adam and Eve to disobey God, according to Kelly. "This is what I call 'The New Biography,'" Kelly said. "It starts with Justin Martyr, who implicates Satan in the fall of Adam and Eve. By causing Adam and Eve to fall, Satan caused his own fall. "The second step in this new and phony biography comes with Origen, who said, 'No, Satan's first sin was not deceiving Adam and Eve or refusing to go along with God's plan of creating Adam in his own image,'" Kelly said. "'It was to sin out of pride like the morning star, like Lucifer in the passage from Isaiah.' Turning Satan into God's enemy is a two-step process."

Meanwhile, in passages in Luke, Matthew, Corinthians and elsewhere in the New Testament, Satan continues to act as a tester, enforcer and prosecutor but not as God's enemy, Kelly points out. "Everyone else has said that by the time Satan gets to the New Testament, he is evil, he's an enemy of God, but that's not so," Kelly said. "The whole biblical picture of Satan is that of a bad cop to Yaweh's good cop in the Old Testament, and to Jesus' good cop in the New Testament. Throughout, Satan is someone who works for God."

A scene in the New Testament's Book of Revelation is often cited today as evidence that Satan was the deceiver of Adam and Eve, but the interpretation stems from a fundamental misunderstanding, Kelly argues. "'That ancient serpent' refers to the giant sea serpent Leviathan, not the garden snake of Eden," he said. "In Revelation, Leviathan has morphed into a dragon, or large serpent, with the seven heads and 10 horns, which is still further removed from the seductive serpent who deceived Eve." In addition to linking Satan with the Garden of Eden, the passage from Revelation also has been used to prove that Satan fell early on in the Bible, but Kelly insists that is not accurate. "Satan's ouster from heaven in Revelation is explained as taking place in the future," Kelly said. "In Revelation 12:10, a voice says that 'the accuser of our brothers is cast out, overcome by the testimony of martyrs.' Since there were no martyrs until Christ died, that has to be in the future."

Similarly, a passage in the Gospel of Luke, when Jesus reports having seen "Satan fall like lightning," has been misinterpreted, according to Kelly. "Jesus saw the fall in the past because he had the vision the day before he describes it to the apostles," Kelly said. "But Jesus is referring to a future fall [of Satan] from his position as God's attorney general." This is not to say, however, that Kelly contends that Satan is likeable. "Jesus doesn't like him, and Paul doesn't like him," Kelly explained. "He represents the old guard in the heavenly bureaucracy, and everyone longs for him to be disbarred as the chief accuser of humankind."




If you know any of the old Hebrew customs you will know that they never considered Satan as evil. Christianity corrupted it.

Regards
DL
 
LOL!! So the devil didn't make Geraldine do it, man is just plain evil on his own!!

How does this jive with Islam where man is basically sinless and pure? Where does all the evil come from?
 
If you know any of the old Hebrew customs you will know that they never considered Satan as evil. Christianity corrupted it.

Regards
DL

I do know the Jewish view of Satan. It happended to change and evolve over time. What we see in the OT is that Satan is simply an advesary. But the OT is not all there is to the Jewish understanding of Satan. There are 400 years of history between the end of the OT and the time of Jesus. It was during this time that the idea of the devil developed. Thus the picture of the devil one finds in the NT is not a picture developed by Christians, but that which was developed as part of those Hebrew customes in which you claim that Satan is never considered evil. You just don't know as much as you think you do about them is all.

Samael is well known from Jewish sources as a designation of Satan, the chief of the angels who rebelled against God, and who was cast out of heaven.

(source: Jewish Elements in Gnosticism; William David Davies, Louis Finkelstein, William Horbury, and John Sturdy; Cambridge University Press; c. 2009; p. 1059.)

In some works some rabbis hold that Satan is the incarnation of all evil, and his thoughts are devoted to the destruction of man. In this view, Satan, the impulse to evil and the angel of death are one and the same personality. Satan seizes upon even a single word which may be prejudicial to man; so that "one should not open his mouth unto evil," i.e., "unto Satan" (source: Talmud Berachot 19a).

One rabbi notes that Satan was an active agent in the fall of man. (source: Midrash Pirke de-Rabbi Eliezer 13)


Then the Christians too developed that idea of the Devil being evil incarnate even more than the Rabbis had. You see it in the writings of people like Bunyan and especially Dante. But to say that the old Hebrew customs never considered Satan as evil is simply false. There was a time that they didn't and a time that they did.

So, the study of the history of Satan does not show Christianity corrupting a Jewish philosophy. Rather the Jews themselves had already corrupted it and the Christians adopted that corruption which the Jews had already managed to do on their own. Christians would indeed corrupt it more, but not in their scriptures, and not in the beginning of Christianity, not in the time period you are mention. Not till many years later, nearly 1000 years after Constantine, and then they would do it only in works of fiction.
 
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LOL!! So the devil didn't make Geraldine do it, man is just plain evil on his own!!

How does this jive with Islam where man is basically sinless and pure? Where does all the evil come from?

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

If God creates our natures and souls and gives us sinning natures then it can be said that God does create evil.

If this quote is true and it is His will that all repent then all must sin. If our nature is a sinning one then we all will.

Strange perhaps that we should all embrace, in a sense, sin.

2 Peter 3:9 KJ
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Regards
DL
 
Grace Seeker

First, Jews saw the fall more as a fall upward to a moral sense. Think about this. Can a person have moral sense without having knowledge of good and evil? No.
Would any God want His followers to have moral sense? Yes. Would you give up your and be blissfully ignorant of almost any topic or issue? Almost any issue you can think of has good or evil implications.

Second, my view of them thinking was not evil is current as it comes from talking with Jews of today.

Third,
The Christian way of seeing God is to see Him screwing up heaven with evil.
Strike one.
They then see God screwing up man's beginning in Eden.
Strike two.
They then see God cleaning house in Noah's day with Genocide and starting over.
Strike three.
They now wait for His return at end time to clean house yet again.
Strike four.

Strike four?

God plays by His own rules I guess.

You and I both know that this view must be false.

God gets things right the first time and every time.
This is why He has not and will not return. His perfect systems are here today the same way that they were here in the beginning. It is just to us to see it. I do. Even with sin and evil and woes, all is perfect and humming along exactly as God wants it to. I call it perfection in evolution.

Regards
DL
 
Grace Seeker

First, Jews saw the fall more as a fall upward to a moral sense. Think about this. Can a person have moral sense without having knowledge of good and evil? No.


Third,
The Christian way of seeing God is to see Him screwing up heaven with evil.
Strike one.
They then see God screwing up man's beginning in Eden.
Strike two.
They then see God cleaning house in Noah's day with Genocide and starting over.
Strike three.
They now wait for His return at end time to clean house yet again.
Strike four.


I didn't even understand what you were saying in your second point, so I'll not attempt to address it. But with regard to your first and third points, I suggest that you have incorrectly given the view of both Jews and Christains.

I don't know if you simply giving your own view of what Jews and Christians think and thus are basically just (erroneous) putting words in our respective mouths. Or if you have found this somewhere, but it does not represent what I, a Christian, understand to be taught by either Jews or Christians.
 
Grace Seeker

Correction to my hasty writing of the point.

Second, my view of Jewish thinking that Satan was not evil is current as it comes from talking with Jews of today.

I have invited one of these to speak to the issue. Coming from the horses mouth, so to speak may help you believe what I said.

Regards
DL
 
Grace Seeker

You are wrong not I.

If you are right and Christians think of God as a God of success then how do you explain that they await His return to fix what should not and cannot be broken.

The God I know gets things right the first time and does not have to return to FIX things.

The Christians and others see a god who must return, red faced, to fix His perfect works.

Believe in a God of imperfect works if you like.
I prefer a winner, not a loser.

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

I do understand if you are not astute enough to recognize the perfection that God has created. Most do not.

Regards
DL
 
I know little about Islam even less about Christianity. What I know a bit is objectivity (being subjective of course :)

The bible is a peculiar book. In it,
- one may find unitarian verses (verses often quoted by Mr. Deedat)
- one may find trinitarian verses (verses often quoted by James White, Jay Smith etc)

- contains verses I believe from original Gospel ("Our Lord is One...." etc.)
- also contains verses I believe from human handy work (Ezekiel 23 about the *****dom, or about incest etc)

- contains ambiguity words that hit the core teaching of Christianity. For example: the word "worshiped" implies what the usual trinitarian believe, but also it has a meaning "kissed on the hand" (according to Gary Miller)

- The ascension, Mr.Deedat brings a peculiar point, Each of 4 gospels mentions about Jesus riding a donkey yet only two verses mentions about the ascension n some bible have them, some do not.

- has no self-reference

- Contains interesting stories

- Many words are derived from bible... like "juda->judaism;onan->onani" etc

- translated into 2000 different languages... that is impressive!
 
Grace Seeker

You are wrong not I.

Do realize what you are suggesting when you, a non-Christian, tells me a Christian pastor that you know the Christian faith and what we believe better than I do?

I find it ironic that you have invited some Jewish folk here to reiterate what you have said so that I might believe it "coming from the horses mouth", yet to this particular Christian horse you merely tell me: "Grace Seeker, You are wrong not I." I find you a tad confused with regard to your consistency in applying your own logic.



BTW your revised way of trying to state what you think it must be that we Christians believe if we don't believe what you posted in the previous post is not any closer to what we actually believe than the prior one. In short none of your posts thus far correctly representative the Christian faith. As to how close I am or how much I err in present the Jewish point of view, I've posted Jewish sources for all I have said. But that doesn't they represent all Jews in the world today, for they were with regard to the historical issue that I was writing. As for present Jewish beliefs, I'll let your Jewish friends speak for themselves.
 
Do realize what you are suggesting when you, a non-Christian, tells me a Christian pastor that you know the Christian faith and what we believe better than I do?

I find it ironic that you have invited some Jewish folk here to reiterate what you have said so that I might believe it "coming from the horses mouth", yet to this particular Christian horse you merely tell me: "Grace Seeker, You are wrong not I." I find you a tad confused with regard to your consistency in applying your own logic.



BTW your revised way of trying to state what you think it must be that we Christians believe if we don't believe what you posted in the previous post is not any closer to what we actually believe than the prior one. In short none of your posts thus far correctly representative the Christian faith. As to how close I am or how much I err in present the Jewish point of view, I've posted Jewish sources for all I have said. But that doesn't they represent all Jews in the world today, for they were with regard to the historical issue that I was writing. As for present Jewish beliefs, I'll let your Jewish friends speak for themselves.

I have asked two to come by but both refused. They think that Islam does not like or believe anything they have to say. too bad for that.

You speak of what Christians believe.

What Christians, the ones with one wife or the ones with as many as they can afford?

The ones that venerate Mary or the ones that don't?

Which of the four gospels do you follow on divorce. they do not agree with each other.

As to you being a pastor, big deal.

I have put more than one to mental flight and find that most do not believe their own bible.

If you like I will debate you on the existence of hell. I say it does not exist and if it did it would be immoral of God to use it.

Refute this claim if you can.

I will begin with one quote.

2 Peter 3:9 KJ
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

If God's will is supreme and He is not willing that any should perish, go to hell, and that all should repent, then all will if His will cannot be thwarted.

If all repent then no hell is required.

It may be respectful to this thread if we move elsewhere. You decide padre.

Regards
DL
 
You are seeking to change the focus of this thread even more than it already is off center. I will not participate in that. I will assert again that what you have presented as being representative of the Christian is in fact NOT.
 
You are seeking to change the focus of this thread even more than it already is off center. I will not participate in that. I will assert again that what you have presented as being representative of the Christian is in fact NOT.

You ignore that I had that in mind when I wrote this.

"It may be respectful to this thread if we move elsewhere. You decide padre."

Run away child but do not use me as your excuse.
It is telling though that I can make you run with one little phrase.

Regards
DL
 
You ignore that I had that in mind when I wrote this.

"It may be respectful to this thread if we move elsewhere. You decide padre."

Run away child but do not use me as your excuse.
It is telling though that I can make you run with one little phrase.

Regards
DL
Who is running? I'm quite willing to continue discussing what the Bible is here. I''l also continue to correct the disinformation you provide with regard to Christian beliefs. (And I suspect with regard to Jewish beliefs as well.) If you want to start one of those other threads to discuss what doesn't belong discussed in this thread there is a good chance, as time permits, that I'll join you in it. But if I ignore you it means nothing more than I don't have the time for needless debate. There actually are more important things in life than this. I've had these discussions with many before you. I don't need to prove anything to you or anyone else.
 
Who is running? I'm quite willing to continue discussing what the Bible is here. I''l also continue to correct the disinformation you provide with regard to Christian beliefs. (And I suspect with regard to Jewish beliefs as well.) If you want to start one of those other threads to discuss what doesn't belong discussed in this thread there is a good chance, as time permits, that I'll join you in it. But if I ignore you it means nothing more than I don't have the time for needless debate. There actually are more important things in life than this. I've had these discussions with many before you. I don't need to prove anything to you or anyone else.

This is true. It does not take away the fact that you run and hide. I do not blame you. You believe in God by faith and I believe in God by logical deduction and have proven my faith. Yours is not based on fact where mine is. You just cannot understand these facts.

You already have shown how little faith you have in the supremacy of God's will so I will let you see god as a loser and not a winner.

Your indoctrination is complete and would rather think that God need your Church.


You have the usual Christian way of seeing God, that is to see Him screwing up heaven with evil.
Strike one.
They then see God screwing up man's beginning in Eden.
Strike two.
They then see God cleaning house in Noah's day with Genocide and starting over.
Strike three.
They now wait for His return at end time to clean house yet again.
Strike four.

Strike four?

God plays by His own rules I guess.

You and I both know that this view must be false.

God gets things right the first time and every time.
This is why He has not and will not return. His perfect systems are here today the same way that they were here in the beginning. It is just to us to see it. I do. Even with sin and evil and woes, all is perfect and humming along exactly as God wants it to. I call it perfection in evolution.

Regards
DL
 
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This is true. It does not take away the fact that you run and hide. I do not blame you. You believe in God by faith and I believe in God by logical deduction and have proven my faith. Yours is not based on fact where mine is. You just cannot understand these facts.

You already have shown how little faith you have in the supremacy of God's will so I will let you see god as a loser and not a winner.

Your indoctrination is complete and would rather think that God need your Church.


You have the usual Christian way of seeing God, that is to see Him screwing up heaven with evil.
Strike one.
They then see God screwing up man's beginning in Eden.
Strike two.
They then see God cleaning house in Noah's day with Genocide and starting over.
Strike three.
They now wait for His return at end time to clean house yet again.
Strike four.

Strike four?

God plays by His own rules I guess.

You and I both know that this view must be false.

God gets things right the first time and every time.
This is why He has not and will not return. His perfect systems are here today the same way that they were here in the beginning. It is just to us to see it. I do. Even with sin and evil and woes, all is perfect and humming along exactly as God wants it to. I call it perfection in evolution.

Regards
DL

You see this is where you are screwed up in your thinking. What you project as my ways of thinking are in fact not my ways of thinking. We can't have a productive conversation when you are going to project on to me or on to the Christian faith views that we do not in fact actually believe. You don't get to tell me what I believe.

But I should have known you would, for all Muslims believe that they are the only ones who know anything truth whatsoever, and thuse they are free to make up things for regarding other's beliefs with impunity. And since Muslims can never be wrong, well, then they are never wrong. Case closed, we've solved everything just by knowing that you're a Muslim and therefore cannot make any mistakes.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

(For those who actually take the time to think while reading, you probably already know I wrote that last paragraph with tongue firmly planted in my cheek. :X )
 
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That was the title of a thread on a Christian forum I frequent. There were a number of interesting answers posted. But there was one that I found I really liked after I read it.

It wasn't the more technical answer that I had chosen to give, but I think it captured the essence of how Christians feel about the Bible better than any of the rest of us did.

To me, it's 2 different things.

First, it's a love letter from God to the world. It's the writers telling us "this is how much God loves you, this is why he loves you, & this is why he'll never stop loving you."

Second, it's man's religious interpretation of historical events, how he explained (or believed God explained to him) what had happened & was happening around him.

Third, it's what Schnerples described in the first reply: a very long book that gathers dust in most homes, but is well-worn & beloved in others.


Comments? Questions? Reflections?

well, in order to answer the question, the bible what is it?, it seems that some background info may help us decide just what the Bible really is.

so i ask the original poster the following questions:

1) has the bible as we know it now always existed since the time of Jesus[as]?

2) do we know what was considered the Bible in 170 CE?

3) do we know what was considered the Bible in 240 CE?

4) do we know what was considered the Bible in 350 CE?

5) do we know what was considered the Bible in 367 CE?

6) leaving the Tanakh (OT) aside, are there any "books" that were once considered part of the New Testament, such as 1 or II Clement, the Apocalypse of Peter or maybe the Shepard of Hermas, that were eventually removed?

7) how about "books" now considered "holy" or part of the New Testament that weren't considered part of it, such as II Peter, James, Timothy, Titus or the Apocalypse of John?

8) when Constantine ordered 50 copies of the bible to be made, what books were included in THOSE copies?

answering those questions just might get us started in figuring out "what is the bible?", In Sha'a Allah!

:w:
 
I hear Muslims speak of the Injil as what was revealed to Jesus, yet the claim is the NT as it exists now is corrupt. Where is the pure form of the Gospel that is talked about in the Quran and among Muslims?
 

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