The Central Flaw of Christianity (another article)

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The ram ransomed the son of Abraham from the type of death it could die. Even then, it was not perfect sacrifice because God does not love bloody sacrifice, even that of animals. A (innocent) creature should not die for an other, especially as forced to. The lesson was that God's mercy does not cancel out his justice. If a sin deserve a particular punishment, that punishment will occur, for God does not go back on his own word; God is faithful. So what kind of 'ram' would ransom men from eternal death? God is Holy and his Justice is Holy, and his Mercy is Holy. He does not force people or creatures into sacrifice for others. Beside, no creature can ransom from eternal death. So How will we be saved. The ram was sent to the altar to ransom the son of Abraham. For those who are lost and are heading for eternal ****ation, is there anyone to be sent, is there anyone who can even reach there? No. Only God can. But nothing can contain God. God enterining created reality means the destruction of this reality. Prophets considered the goodness of God and his holiness realised that God himself was going to come into creation to restore it. But considering his majesty, they also realised that Creation will be destroyed in the proccess. So they prophetized about a suffering servant who will go about restoring all brokenness and who will have power over everything. Who will die only to enter death and destroy it. Who will restore Creation but making even more glorious than it ever was, for it will be God himself in Creation. So Jesus had to die precisely because humanity can not contain God, his death will destroy death itself because death can not contain God. At the end all sin, all suffering, all corruptions will be destroyed, and Creation renewed and even glorified. God is not aggressive and non-violent. He came into our nature invited by the holy prayers of our ancenstors. Even death was destroyed because it attempted to swallow him according to its custom of swallowing the living. An ancient Christian wrote: God can not die by himself, and man can not live by himself. So God in his great love, became man, so that sharing man's death, He may destroy it and give man His life. God who is eternal, became man to destroy all corruption and death, and purify humanity giving it eternal life.


This is pretty convoluted story.
I am not interested what a man opinion about God and prophets (pbut).

I am interested in what God and prophets ACTUALLY say about the Jesus' blood atonement to pay for sins.

ANY man can give opinions about anything.

Are you not interested to know what your god and prophets actually said about this matter?

Or is the words of men hold more weight to you?
 
Yes I know how it appear that in Christianity you need to be a schoolar to grasp the concept of God. It gets misleading.
However if it were true, we would need degrees before we are baptized.
 
Yes I know how it appear that in Christianity you need to be a schoolar to grasp the concept of God. It gets misleading. However if it were true, we would need degrees before we are baptized.


It seems you are also unable to think logically.

Anyone can get baptized, but do they understand the concept of 3-in-1 christian deity?

Baptized is just an ablution, washing with water.
 
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I'd like to get back to the topic at hand:

Is there a christian who can provide words of God, jesus or prophets (pbut) that state Jesus blood atonement was needed to atone the sins of humanity?

Surely the fundamental pillar of christianity belief should get a mention by God, Jesus or prophets?
 
Are you saying that nobody mentioned John 6? let me guess, it is corrupt according to Islam right?
What words of Jesus would you find acceptable? from what source?
 
Please bring the verses and explain to us how it was state a blood atonement by Jesus.
 
In reply to message 381

Every man's word is just an opinion until confirmed by experience.

For verses. I am sorry brother, you can think what you want, but I am not about to engage in spinning verses. Beside, I don't like to pick verses, I like to read chapters if not entire book and grasp the full message in all context. The Bible is one Word.
 
"An ancient Christian wrote: God can not die by himself, and man can not live by himself. So God in his great love, became man, so that sharing man's death, He may destroy it and give man His life. God who is eternal, became man to destroy all corruption and death, and purify humanity giving it eternal life."

;DI see people dying all the time---If you want to see it too---you might want to visit Afghanistan perhaps?
There is plenty of corruption too---did you not hear of wikileaks?
----Therefore, either God is totally inefficient, and/or powerless ---or your concept of God is totally flawed......;D
....but then, anyone who thinks God "needs" to "purify humanity" by becomming human:hmm: has already comitted intellectual suicide....IMO ;D
;D

seriously though---explaining the trinity to a Muslim is like explaining to a scientist that the world is flat---its a hopeless cause.
 
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The concept of "Blood Atonement"seems to have been an error originally begun in the very early years of Catholicism. It was never part of Judaic belief, blood sacrifice was never an act of atonement, but rather a visible act of obedience and self sacrifice to give up things we value to follow God(swt). This heresy of blood atonement was corrected by St, Anselm in the very early 12th Century, when Anselm pointed out that when the Church taught Christ was a Blood Atonement, it was teaching that God(swt) had to pay Satan a ransom for men's souls. this was later explained further by Luther and was one of the first Catholic errors corrected by the reformation. but this ancient heresy of blood atonement seems to be making a return.
 
To msg 388

Yes, God does not need anything. He is self-sufficient. For this, the only offering acceptable to him is Thanksgiving. Even this thanksgiving is only good to us, because it does not add anything to the glory of God, however, it makes us right with him as we are properly aligned with his goodness.

Divine power reaches everything even death, it destroyes death because it comes into contact with death, it also set us free and gives us life because it comes into contact with us and our realities. Of course it is non imposing, they are saved who want to be saved. Again God does not need anything, He does not even need to save us. We are the ones who need salvation, and those who wants it, welcome his saving power.

God bless
 
@ Amigo
What does it mean to "destroy death"---I don't see any destruction of death......

and if "the only offering acceptable is Thanksgiving"-----"and he does not need to save us"----then why does "God" kill himself?

@ Woodrow
interesting info....so what did this Anselm propose as the alternate reason for crucifixion if not blood atonement?
 
Hi Siam

God does not kill himself.
Death swallows up God and dies itself.
 
@ Amigo

@ Woodrow
interesting info....so what did this Anselm propose as the alternate reason for crucifixion if not blood atonement?

He introduced a Substitution theory in which, he received all of the punishment for all of humankind's sins. In other words he took on the punishment each human would have to suffer. Not an atonement, a taking on the punishment so we can escape without punishment.

Luther later refined this and today that is the view of many Christians.We do not accept it as Islam teaches each of us must accept and face the consequences for our own actions, nobody can take on the punishment for us.
 
Some info for those who (like me)are confused about Christianity......
Since neither Judaism nor Islam have the false notion of "original sin"---none of these theories makes any sense.....

The Ransom Theory -- God deceitfully bribes and tricks Satan:
This was the dominant belief in the early Christian church. It has also been called the "Classic" theory of the atonement. It was accepted by church leaders for about a millennium, from the second to the twelfth century CE. There are very few theologians outside of the Eastern Orthodox churches and the Protestant Word-faith Movement who believe in it today. 1 However, one might argue that this concept may be the most accurate theory of all, because it was accepted by Christian leaders within two centuries after Yeshua's (a.k.a. Jesus Christ) and Paul's death. This happened when memories of their teachings were still relatively fresh.
The early church father Origen (185-254 CE) was a leader of the Alexandrian School in Egypt. He suggested that, as a result of the sin of Adam and Eve, Satan had acquired a formal dominion over, and ownership of, all of humanity and the rest of the world. In order to free people from the grip of Satan, God agreed to arrange the death of Yeshua, his son, as a ransom price to be paid to the devil. This would formally compensate for Adam and Eve's sin, and would release humanity from Satan's grip. Origen wrote: "The payment could not be [made] to God [be]cause God was not holding sinners in captivity for a ransom, so the payment had to be to the devil." 2 Origen believed that Satan accepted the offer because he assumed that he would end up with ownership of Yeshua. The devil didn't realize that Yeshua would escape his clutches. God deceitfully pulled a "bait and switch" operation by resurrecting Yeshua a day and a half after his death on the cross. This left Satan without any reward. Yeshua had escaped Satan's grasp and was reunited with God. Origen concluded that humans can then be reconciled with God if they trust Yeshua as Lord and Savior.
The Satisfaction Theory
The eleventh-century scholar Saint Anselm didn't like the Ransom Theory. He believed that an outlaw like the Devil had no right to exert power over humankind, and therefore God didn't need to pay him anything for our release.
To replace the Ransom Theory, Anselm put forward another explanation known as the Satisfaction Theory (or Debt Theory). According to this theory, humankind owes a debt to God because we dishonored him through our disobedience and sin. But his pride, as well as the need for universal justice, prevents him from simply forgiving us. To resolve the matter, Jesus volunteered to pay our debt for us by suffering and dying on the cross. God accepted this act of love as a full atonement, and thus satisfied, he then forgave us and offered us salvation.
Some people still wonder why God didn't just forgive us outright. Another criticism of this theory is that it puts Jesus in the role of a sacrificial lamb. In ancient times lambs and other animals were often sacrificed to pagan gods as a way to appease them. It was thought that the death of an animal could serve as a substitute payment for a person's sins. Similarly, in the Satisfaction Theory, the suffering and death of Jesus serves as a substitute payment for humankind's sins.

The Moral Exemplar Theory
According to this theory, Jesus tried to help us obtain salvation by giving us a perfect moral example of how to live. He hoped that his teachings and his example would inspire us to lift ourselves out of sin and enter into true communion with God.
This theory, which is also called the Moral Influence Theory, is usually attributed to the medieval scholar Peter Abelard. Many Christians have found it attractive and helpful. But some people wonder how it explains the crucifixion, since Jesus could have given us his teachings, and also provided a perfect moral example, without dying on the cross. One possible answer is that his death, though not strictly necessary, helped to draw attention to his life and therefore made his mission more effective.
Unfortunately, many people continue to ignore the example that Jesus set, and still commit immoral acts. Thus, if the purpose of his mission was to inspire everyone to live without sin, so far it hasn't been fully successful.

The Penal-Substitution Theory
The basic idea of this theory is that Jesus suffered and died to take upon himself the punishment that we ourselves deserve. Although God wasn't willing to forgive us outright, he was willing to accept the punishment of Jesus as a substitute for our own punishment. Thus, in this theory Jesus takes the role of an innocent scapegoat who is punished for the sins of others.
On one occasion God punished humankind by sending a flood that killed everyone on the earth except a few people on Noah's boat. But according to the Penal-Substitution theory, when humankind later needed to be punished again, God allowed Jesus to take the punishment for us.
Some of the underlying assumptions of this theory can be found in the letters of Saint Paul. The Protestant Reformers of the sixteenth century took those assumptions and developed them into the modern form of the theory. In some ways it resembles the Satisfaction Theory, since Jesus' act of taking our punishment for us is basically equivalent to paying our debt for us.
The Penal-Substitution Theory is accepted by many modern Protestants. Most of them also believe that Jesus' sacrifice brought the possibility of forgiveness to everyone, including people who have lived since the crucifixion and people who will be born in the future. This is known as universal atonement. But some Christians believe that Jesus died only for the "elect", a small minority who are predestined to be saved. This is called definite (or limited) atonement.

The Governmental Theory
According to this theory, God acts as a governor (or overseer) of all life on the earth. But he became very displeased with the way people were behaving, and he wanted to show us that we deserve severe punishment. To demonstrate just how severe, he sent Jesus to suffer and die.
Thus, the crucifixion was meant to be a demonstration of the punishment that we all deserve. By giving us this demonstration, God hoped that we would realize the seriousness of our sins and reform ourselves. He could have actually punished us, and would have been justified in doing so, but decided to merely give us a warning, and let us have another chance.
One problem with this theory is the fact that many people have lived and died without ever hearing about Jesus or the crucifixion, and therefore were never aware of God's warning. And even now, many people who are aware of it appear to disregard it.

The Christus Victor Theory
In 1931 Gustaf Aulen published the book Christus Victor, in which he argued that Jesus came to earth to defeat the evil forces that had gained control over us. To win our salvation, Jesus needed to overcome both Satan and death. The name Christus Victor, which means "Christ the Victor", refers to his successful accomplishment of this task.
In some ways this theory is similar to the Ransom Theory, for it assumes that humankind had come under the control of the Devil after the sins of Adam and Eve caused God to abandon us. But in this theory, instead of God paying Satan a ransom for our release, Jesus freed us by directly defeating the Evil One. And his resurrection proved that death can also be conquered.
In his book Aulen argues that this was the original belief of the earliest Christians. It is also the basic belief of many modern Eastern Orthodox Christians, and in recent years it has become popular among some evangelical Christians.
 
Some info for those who (like me)are confused about Christianity......
Since neither Judaism nor Islam have the false notion of "original sin"---none of these theories makes any sense.....

The Ransom Theory -- God deceitfully bribes and tricks Satan:
This was the dominant belief in the early Christian church. It has also been called the "Classic" theory of the atonement. It was accepted by church leaders for about a millennium, from the second to the twelfth century CE. There are very few theologians outside of the Eastern Orthodox churches and the Protestant Word-faith Movement who believe in it today. 1 However, one might argue that this concept may be the most accurate theory of all, because it was accepted by Christian leaders within two centuries after Yeshua's (a.k.a. Jesus Christ) and Paul's death. This happened when memories of their teachings were still relatively fresh.
The early church father Origen (185-254 CE) was a leader of the Alexandrian School in Egypt. He suggested that, as a result of the sin of Adam and Eve, Satan had acquired a formal dominion over, and ownership of, all of humanity and the rest of the world. In order to free people from the grip of Satan, God agreed to arrange the death of Yeshua, his son, as a ransom price to be paid to the devil. This would formally compensate for Adam and Eve's sin, and would release humanity from Satan's grip. Origen wrote: "The payment could not be [made] to God [be]cause God was not holding sinners in captivity for a ransom, so the payment had to be to the devil." 2 Origen believed that Satan accepted the offer because he assumed that he would end up with ownership of Yeshua. The devil didn't realize that Yeshua would escape his clutches. God deceitfully pulled a "bait and switch" operation by resurrecting Yeshua a day and a half after his death on the cross. This left Satan without any reward. Yeshua had escaped Satan's grasp and was reunited with God. Origen concluded that humans can then be reconciled with God if they trust Yeshua as Lord and Savior.
The Satisfaction Theory
The eleventh-century scholar Saint Anselm didn't like the Ransom Theory. He believed that an outlaw like the Devil had no right to exert power over humankind, and therefore God didn't need to pay him anything for our release.
To replace the Ransom Theory, Anselm put forward another explanation known as the Satisfaction Theory (or Debt Theory). According to this theory, humankind owes a debt to God because we dishonored him through our disobedience and sin. But his pride, as well as the need for universal justice, prevents him from simply forgiving us. To resolve the matter, Jesus volunteered to pay our debt for us by suffering and dying on the cross. God accepted this act of love as a full atonement, and thus satisfied, he then forgave us and offered us salvation.
Some people still wonder why God didn't just forgive us outright. Another criticism of this theory is that it puts Jesus in the role of a sacrificial lamb. In ancient times lambs and other animals were often sacrificed to pagan gods as a way to appease them. It was thought that the death of an animal could serve as a substitute payment for a person's sins. Similarly, in the Satisfaction Theory, the suffering and death of Jesus serves as a substitute payment for humankind's sins.

The Moral Exemplar Theory
According to this theory, Jesus tried to help us obtain salvation by giving us a perfect moral example of how to live. He hoped that his teachings and his example would inspire us to lift ourselves out of sin and enter into true communion with God.
This theory, which is also called the Moral Influence Theory, is usually attributed to the medieval scholar Peter Abelard. Many Christians have found it attractive and helpful. But some people wonder how it explains the crucifixion, since Jesus could have given us his teachings, and also provided a perfect moral example, without dying on the cross. One possible answer is that his death, though not strictly necessary, helped to draw attention to his life and therefore made his mission more effective.
Unfortunately, many people continue to ignore the example that Jesus set, and still commit immoral acts. Thus, if the purpose of his mission was to inspire everyone to live without sin, so far it hasn't been fully successful.

The Penal-Substitution Theory
The basic idea of this theory is that Jesus suffered and died to take upon himself the punishment that we ourselves deserve. Although God wasn't willing to forgive us outright, he was willing to accept the punishment of Jesus as a substitute for our own punishment. Thus, in this theory Jesus takes the role of an innocent scapegoat who is punished for the sins of others.
On one occasion God punished humankind by sending a flood that killed everyone on the earth except a few people on Noah's boat. But according to the Penal-Substitution theory, when humankind later needed to be punished again, God allowed Jesus to take the punishment for us.
Some of the underlying assumptions of this theory can be found in the letters of Saint Paul. The Protestant Reformers of the sixteenth century took those assumptions and developed them into the modern form of the theory. In some ways it resembles the Satisfaction Theory, since Jesus' act of taking our punishment for us is basically equivalent to paying our debt for us.
The Penal-Substitution Theory is accepted by many modern Protestants. Most of them also believe that Jesus' sacrifice brought the possibility of forgiveness to everyone, including people who have lived since the crucifixion and people who will be born in the future. This is known as universal atonement. But some Christians believe that Jesus died only for the "elect", a small minority who are predestined to be saved. This is called definite (or limited) atonement.

The Governmental Theory
According to this theory, God acts as a governor (or overseer) of all life on the earth. But he became very displeased with the way people were behaving, and he wanted to show us that we deserve severe punishment. To demonstrate just how severe, he sent Jesus to suffer and die.
Thus, the crucifixion was meant to be a demonstration of the punishment that we all deserve. By giving us this demonstration, God hoped that we would realize the seriousness of our sins and reform ourselves. He could have actually punished us, and would have been justified in doing so, but decided to merely give us a warning, and let us have another chance.
One problem with this theory is the fact that many people have lived and died without ever hearing about Jesus or the crucifixion, and therefore were never aware of God's warning. And even now, many people who are aware of it appear to disregard it.

The Christus Victor Theory
In 1931 Gustaf Aulen published the book Christus Victor, in which he argued that Jesus came to earth to defeat the evil forces that had gained control over us. To win our salvation, Jesus needed to overcome both Satan and death. The name Christus Victor, which means "Christ the Victor", refers to his successful accomplishment of this task.
In some ways this theory is similar to the Ransom Theory, for it assumes that humankind had come under the control of the Devil after the sins of Adam and Eve caused God to abandon us. But in this theory, instead of God paying Satan a ransom for our release, Jesus freed us by directly defeating the Evil One. And his resurrection proved that death can also be conquered.
In his book Aulen argues that this was the original belief of the earliest Christians. It is also the basic belief of many modern Eastern Orthodox Christians, and in recent years it has become popular among some evangelical Christians.


I jumped ahead too fast. You are correct Anselm introduced the Satisfaction theory, this was later refined by others, much by Luther, to become the Penal-substitution theory.
 
Hi Siam

God does not kill himself.
Death swallows up God and dies itself.

Why does "death" have to die? ---is this "death" a person/Divine/God/Devil...or what? and how is it that this "death" is so far Superior/powerful that it can "swallow God" ?

----for centuries the Jews were accused of "Deicide"---which means "Killing God"---do look up your history.......
which means ---- either the Jews "killed God" or "God" killed himself---or what?
 
He introduced a Substitution theory in which, he received all of the punishment for all of humankind's sins. In other words he took on the punishment each human would have to suffer. Not an atonement, a taking on the punishment so we can escape without punishment.

Luther later refined this and today that is the view of many Christians.We do not accept it as Islam teaches each of us must accept and face the consequences for our own actions, nobody can take on the punishment for us.

:D Thanks Woodrow---Yr explanation is easier on both the eyes and the mind than the confusing bulk I posted.....
 
Hi Siam

God does not kill himself.
Death swallows up God and dies itself.

Hola Amigo,

Death does not overtake God for nothing overtakes God. God himself created death so how can his own creation overcome him? For he is beyond any deficiency overtaking him

There is no god but He,
The Living, the Everlasting,
Slumber seizes Him not, neither sleep,To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and the earth.
Who is there that can intercede with His, except by His leave?
He knows what lies before them and what is after them,
And they comprehend not anything of His Knowledge save as He wills.
His throne comprises the heavens and the earth,
The preserving of them fatigues Him not,
And He is the All-High, All-Glorious.


[Al-Quran: Surat al-Baqarah, Ayah 255]
 
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Just a thought to throw out.

If Jesus(as) suffered for man's sins and is God)swt), that means that each and every human is responsible of causing an all just and all merciful God(swt) to suffer unimaginable pain. What man could live with such guilt and face an eternity in heaven constantly knowing he had caused his Savior to suffer.

An eternity in deserved hell would be less painful for a man, than living an eternity in heaven with that guilt.
 
Woodrow,
You are not precise in your descriptions but you are right that we have sinned greatly against God.
But when we admit it and accept his forgiveness, we receive also his peace and reconciliation.
That's why the only sacrifice acceptable to God is Thanksgiving, because such a great forgiveness is part of what we are thankful for.
 

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