The creation??

[root]

First of all note that we only know how things behave in this universe, so we don't know how things behave in the heavens.

Where is the logic here. Trumble is spot on here when he points out your logic is based on your faith & not logic, the universe is to some extent observable. The heavens, what is that if nothing more than faith.

Eg. there can't be a square circle in this universe, but we can't prove there can't be a square cirle in the heavens. So whatever is in the heavens, and how they behave may seem completely illogical to us. Therefore the question "who created God?" is illogical because there was no instant in time when He was created by anyone living in the universe.

If time does not exist, the notion of an instant in time is just pure fallacy, even today we cannot say for sure time is a physical necessity. New scientific research seems to be confirming that the expansion of the universe never needed time thus we too our outside of time.

Your answers "nobody created God" and "God was not created" are equally illogical. However its logical to say "nobody in the universe created God" or "God was never created in the universe", and unfortunately we don't have the power to think beyond that. Whatever you can know about the heavens is only through the revelation and faith.

Yes, faith always rules over logic.

God gave you free will and ofcourse you are free to believe/disbelieve but He told you about the paradise/hell too!

Free will, if you can prove we have free will then please share it with us all and go collect your nobel peace prize. Now your so called faith based logic relies on more belief, if i tell myself I have free will 100 times a day, maybe one day it might turn out to be true. Probability though is that I have not.

 

[krypton6]

If god did not give us free will, then would we not all be religious and believe in god?

 

[root]

If god did not give us free will, then would we not all be religious and believe in god?

No!

 

[krypton6]

How can you deny that?

The fact that we have millions of atheist, hindu, and buddists proves that god gave us free will!

 

[root]

How can you deny that?

The fact that we have millions of atheist, hindu, and buddists proves that god gave us free will!

And let us not forget Christians & the thousands of other religions. Additionally, what about the faith of neandethals!

If you seriously consider what your saying relavent proof of free will then in all honesty I am utterly and totally disheartened by you.

You cannot prove we have free will before you even suggest who gave it.

Free will debate over me thinks.

 

[Muezzin]

And let us not forget Christians & the thousands of other religions. Additionally, what about the faith of neandethals!

If you seriously consider what your saying relavent proof of free will then in all honesty I am utterly and totally disheartened by you.

You cannot prove we have free will before you even suggest who gave it.

Free will debate over me thinks.

Eh? You seem to have jumped from point A to point C without going through point B.

If one believes in God, one might believe God gave us free will.

If one doesn't believe in God, but does believe in free will, then one believe one just has free will as part of one's humanity.

We can all agree that we have free will, surely? What real difference does it make that we might disagree as to its source? The very fact that there are people with opposing views proves that those people have free will to hold them, no? If not, why not?

Unless of course one doesn't believe in free will at all.

 

[Yerpon]

I think you are having trouble in that you are effectively defining 'logical' as something you believe, or something necessary for something you believe, and 'illogical' as something you don't believe or something inconsistent with your belief. That is not what logic is... beliefs do not determine whether something is logical or not, only whether the answer produced by application of logic happens to be (subjectively) true or not.

No. You didn't understand what I was trying to say. I believe in God although I also believe I can not completely understand Him and neither can I predict what will He do next but I still believe!

Dude, do you believe if anything seems illogical to you, then it is impossible? You are behaving like a "narrow-minded" atheist. I suggest you to come back to the forum after learning something about quantum mechanics or do a few weird experiments in a laboratory to overcome your narrow-mindedness. In quantum mechanics we have plain and dry equations describing a phenomenon but they make no sense whatsoever. Eg. in the double-slit experiment, when we allow one electron to pass through the 2 slits, and measure which hole the electron passes through, then it will only pass through one of the holes as a particle. But if we do not measure which hole it passed through, then it will pass through both holes as a wave. No one can understand this but it is still a fact.

Similarly we can't understand Allah too but I still believe He always do everything absolutely good even if sometimes it seems bad to me.

By the way, do you believe in god(s)? Aren't you a Buddhist?

 

[Yerpon]

Free will, if you can prove we have free will then please share it with us all and go collect your nobel peace prize. Now your so called faith based logic relies on more belief, if i tell myself I have free will 100 times a day, maybe one day it might turn out to be true. Probability though is that I have not.

Do you mean that free will can't be proved if there is an omnipotent god? What matters is not that free will can't be proved, but what matters the most is that NO one can disprove "free will". Now you are FREE to believe in free will although you can't prove/disprove it. This is what separates a believer from a disbeliever. God will reward the believers and punish the disbelievers!

 

[Trumble]

No. You didn't understand what I was trying to say.

I understand completely what you were trying to say... it just has nothing whatsoever to do with the point I was making. Your last has no relevance at all to my last so I see no real point in trying again.

 

[krypton6]

Instead of just saying that you find my "prove" ridiculous, try disprove it!

If god did not give us free will, then we would all be following the same religion or believe. The fact that we have all sort of believes and religions prove that humans have free will!

 

[wilberhum]

Instead of just saying that you find my "prove" ridiculous, try disprove it!

If god did not give us free will, then we would all be following the same religion or believe. The fact that we have all sort of believes and religions prove that humans have free will!

Or does that prove that there is no god in control. :hiding:

 

[Keltoi]

From a religious standpoint, free will means one willingly and knowingly either follows the Word of God or willingly and knowingly does not. That is why free will is so important to spirituality.

 

[Omari]

From a religious standpoint, free will means one willingly and knowingly either follows the Word of God or willingly and knowingly does not.

Agreed, faith and religion is always a choice. You either believe in god, or you don't, you are never forced by god directly to choose.

 

[krypton6]

Or does that prove that there is no god in control. :hiding:

So you believe that if god existed we would all be following the same religion.
But what's the point of creating us, forcing us to follow the same religion and believe, and then telling us that this is all a test?


You cannot deny the existence of the Sony company when looking at the Sony television in front of you.

And in the same way; you cannot deny the existence of god when looking at his creation.

Nothing of what we know of can be created out of nothing, or can create itself, therefore there must be a creator.

 

[wilberhum]

So you believe that if god existed we would all be following the same religion.
If? Did I say he doesn't?
I believe in god, I just don't believe in religion.
So, I conclude, that if god really communicated to us, most everyone would belong to one religion.
But what's the point of creating us, forcing us to follow the same religion and believe, and then telling us that this is all a test?
I don't believe there is a point. That's why I don't believe what you believe.
And I don't think life is a test, I think it is a gift.
You cannot deny the existence of the Sony company when looking at the Sony television in front of you.

And in the same way; you cannot deny the existence of god when looking at his creation.
That is as logical as comparing a fish to a bicycle.
Nothing of what we know of can be created out of nothing, or can create itself, therefore there must be a creator.
By that same logic, the creator needs a creator.

In the end it is what you believe. Any claim to proof is just silliness.

There is no proof, there is just belief.

 

[Omari]

In the end it is what you believe. Any claim to proof is just silliness.

There is no proof, there is just belief.

I don't think silliness is the right word ...

anyhow I understand your point, that it's faith, you choose wether you have it or not. [Obviously you don't belive in any attemt of proof]- But doesn't it make sense to you that god gave you the same option you chose?

In the end it is what you believe.

You chose wether you believe or not, you used your ...right to free will.

And I don't think life is a test, I think it is a gift.

What about those who are born blind, born deaf, born mute, born disabled, born weak, born ugly? ...im sure you know i can go on...
It's not much a gift now, is it?
What gives you more rights then anyone else in the world, why should you [not you in particular,obviously] have the chance to live life with the best physical or emotional qualities while somone else is on the street because he can't work due to his disability?

I just want an answer

Peace be with you
Omari

 

[wilberhum]

I don't think silliness is the right word ...
But claiming proof of the improvable is silly.
anyhow I understand your point, that it's faith, you choose wether you have it or not. [Obviously you don't belive in any attemt of proof]- But doesn't it make sense to you that god gave you the same option you chose? You chose wether you believe or not, you used your ...right to free will.
I don't argue against free will. I argue that what krypton6 agreements work both ways.

What about those who are born blind, born deaf, born mute, born disabled, born weak, born ugly? ...im sure you know i can go on...
It's not much a gift now, is it?
You would have to ask them. Few people wish they had never been born.
What gives you more rights then anyone else in the world, why should you [not you in particular,obviously] have the chance to live life with the best physical or emotional qualities while somone else is on the street because he can't work due to his disability?

I just want an answer
You need to take that up with god. But the lack of answers to those kind of questions is a major reason that don't think god cares much about our daily lives.
Peace be with you
Omari

How do you answer those questions?

 

[Omari]

Which questions :S?

my own questions?
because you haven't posed any....

 

[wilberhum]

Which questions :S?

my own questions?
because you haven't posed any....

How do you answer the questions that you ask me.

What about those who are born blind, born deaf, born mute, born disabled, born weak, born ugly? ...im sure you know i can go on...

What about them?

What gives you more rights then anyone else in the world, why should you [not you in particular,obviously] have the chance to live life with the best physical or emotional qualities while somone else is on the street because he can't work due to his disability?

What do you think gives me more rights?

How do you answer the questions that you ask me.

 

[Omari]

How do you answer the questions that you ask me.


What about them?

I meant, how are they "gifted" with life. IF i am born perfect, and you were born blind, [this answers the next question too] why is that? Why should I be perfect and you blind? What right did i have over you?


What do you think gives me more rights?

How do you answer the questions that you ask me.

...