The Evidence that the Koran is the Word of God

[daveyats]

"Qur'an was not revealed in form of tablet. But Allah told verses to angel Gabriel, and then angel Gabriel told again to prophet Muhammad"

I came across this quote while browsing the forum and It sparked off some questions for me. Please treat these questions as coming from a person who has very limited knowledge about Islam.

1. How do muslims know that Muhammad is a true prophet? Meaning what is the proof that his message was divine and infallible?

From watching youtube debates etc...I gather that the main evidence is that the Koran (his message) is unique. It is a book that we can't reproduce or create today hence it is divine. I personally think this is a very strange reasoning because I'm pretty sure no one can reproduce something like the Sanskrit manuscripts, the Bible or the Buddhist texts as well. The Koran is also not entirely original because it "borrowed" from the Bible and Torah. I mean "borrowed" in the sense that it is a continuation/correction of information/facts that were already there.

2. If Allah could not prevent the previous books - Bible and Torah from being corrupted, what guarantee is there that the Koran is not corrupted?
In the first place, why didn't Allah protect His previous revelations? was he unable to protect it or didn't care that much that men will read a corrupted message?

The other thing is, I understand the Old testament (including the Torah) and New Testament are complementary. meaning the corruption didn't just occur at the new testament, it had to occur with the old testament in order to complement the new testament.

That represents a good 500 if not 1000 years where the revelation of Allah was allowed to be corrupted.

3. Did Mohammed write down the messages himself? Or did someone else record it for him?

Appreciate any responses. Internet links will do but personal responses preferred. I'll keep my responses to a minimum to avoid potentially adding any fuel to this "fire".

 

[greenhill]

Peace to you.

How do I put it? When we take a look at something from a portion of it, then we tend not to see the whole picture.

Yes, it is a continuation hence the similarities. But even in some cases, the same stories are different. If one says it happened one way and the other says it happens the other way, then both cannot be correct. So, hence the alterations or the inaccuracies and at worst, man filling up the gaps with his own ideas. The story of Adam is a good difference, in terms of perspective.

I believe there are threads in the past that speaks on this subject.

Don't ask me why, but the previous Books were sent for the Jews. Hence it was for them to preserve it. They chose to corrupt it. The Quran was sent for all humanity. Hence it had to be protected. How? So many people have learnt it by heart. Over generations. This is just an example.


Peace

 

[daveyats]

Yes, it is a continuation hence the similarities. But even in some cases, the same stories are different. If one says it happened one way and the other says it happens the other way, then both cannot be correct. So, hence the alterations or the inaccuracies and at worst, man filling up the gaps with his own ideas. The story of Adam is a good difference, in terms of perspective.

thats the problem. from what I can see, there are 3 books - the Old Testament (OT), New Testament (NT), and the Koran. The OT and NT do not contradict each other but the Koran does. I'm just wondering how do muslims resolve this?

The other thing is, the formation of the Koran reminded me of how the Mormon Bible came to be. A person called Joseph Smith claimed to have received a message from God, in the form of a gold tablet from an angel Moroni. Christians reject him as a false prophet because his message contradicts the previous ones. I have to say though, it was much easier to dismiss Joseph Smith's as a fraud because he didn't claim to do any miracles and no one else but him actually saw the gold tablets!

Don't ask me why, but the previous Books were sent for the Jews. Hence it was for them to preserve it. They chose to corrupt it. The Quran was sent for all humanity. Hence it had to be protected. How? So many people have learnt it by heart. Over generations. This is just an example.

What if this is just a misconception? What if the Bible was entrusted to the Jews but the message was meant for all humanity? having read the Bible I wish to say that it is actually addressed not only to Jews but to non-Jews...but my usual disclaimer: don't hear it from me! you can ask your christian friends or read it to evaluate it for yourself.

Just to add on, I just learnt that muslims hold the view that the Koran is not corrupted because it was perfectly copied from the time it was compiled. (This is my understanding, that the Koran did not exist as a single unity until some person decided to compile it into one version and burn all other versions). The Bible was not copied perfectly hence it was corrupted.

 

[ardianto]

Greeting and peace be with you, Daveyats.

I am just a lay Muslim, but I will try to answer your question. And I am really sorry if there are words that maybe can offend you although I don't intend to it.

Okay, my answers are ........

1] It's not easy to find the words to explain why I believe in Islam. But it's like the reason why you believe in Christianity. And of course, since I believe in Islam, I believe that Muhammad is the true prophet, and the last prophet.

About Qur'an, here the verse that explain that Allah guard the Qur'an to guarantee its originality
"Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur'an and indeed, We will be its guardian."
(Al-Hijr: 9)

About messages in Qur'an that "borrowed" from Bible and Torah. These books are holly books that come from Allah. Of course, the book that come later related to book that came earlier.


2] I am sure you know that God (Allah) can do anything, but He is not always do. Like when He didn't give what you hope after you pray because you hope something. Yes, God could protect Bible and Torah, but He didn't do it.

Why?. I will answer from a Muslim point of view.

Muslims believe that Muhammad is the last prophet and there were many prophets before. Few of those prophets brought "shariat" or law (in wider context) that we know as "religion". And these shariat came in order. When the new prophet who bring shariat has come, the the previous shariat become 'expired'.

Frankly, if someone ask me, is Christianity religion that came from Allah?, I will answer "yes!". And if he ask again why don't I convert to Christianity if I believe that Christianity is religion of Allah?. My answer is simple, Christianity has been replaced by the newest religion, Islam. So I follow the newest religion.

Back to the question question, why Allah protect Qur'an but didn't protect Bible and Torah?. It's because Bible and Torah would be replaced by Qur'an.


3] Prophet Muhammad didn't write down Qur'an into book or other medias. He just memorized the verses in Qur'an, And he also told his companions to memorize. So, there were many people who memorized Qur'an in that time.

Qur'an started to written down in form of book (officially) after prophet Muhammad passed away. But memorize Qur'an is still be a unique skill of Muslims that maintained well until now. You can find many hufaz or those who memorize Qur'an in many Muslim communities. Even few members in this forum are hufaz.

 

[daveyats]

I believe that Muhammad is the true prophet, and the last prophet

Other than the Koran, what other proof is there that Muhammad is a true, and the last prophet? The Koran was only written and compiled a (few hundred years??) after his death. So at that time, before the Koran, what made the people that follow him believe that he was a true prophet?

It's because Bible and Torah would be replaced by Qur'an

How do you know for sure that the Quran is the last one? The Bible also claim to be the final revelation so either it is corrupted by man, or Allah change his mind.

I apologize because I know I'm being critical with my questioning....I'm just really curious to know why do muslims believe so strongly in Islam. In engineering terms, we have to do stress testing to make sure the parts we put into a lift or car can withstand the pressure/wear & tear. So that the lift or car is safe for people to use. Hope you can treat my questioning as sort of a stress test for the claims of Islam.

 

[InToTheRain]

Other than the Koran, what other proof is there that Muhammad is a true, and the last prophet? The Koran was only written and compiled a (few hundred years??) after his death. So at that time, before the Koran, what made the people that follow him believe that he was a true prophet?



How do you know for sure that the Quran is the last one? The Bible also claim to be the final revelation so either it is corrupted by man, or Allah change his mind.

I apologize because I know I'm being critical with my questioning....I'm just really curious to know why do muslims believe so strongly in Islam. In engineering terms, we have to do stress testing to make sure the parts we put into a lift or car can withstand the pressure/wear & tear. So that the lift or car is safe for people to use. Hope you can treat my questioning as sort of a stress test for the claims of Islam.

We know Mohammad :saws: as we know Isa(AS) and Musa(AS) were prophets of Allah Most High. Because of the countless number of people who attested to that fact during their time. It's no coincidence that there are similarities in their message as it is after all from the same source. They were the elect of Allah Most High and innocents who only sought to rekindle our relationship with Allah Most High.

Even if the Torah and Bible were preserved it doesn't mean it will be accepted by Allah Most High as Sharia changes with time and believers in God are expected to conform to the Messengers sent to them.

There are many reasons why the Qur'an is preserved and not the other scriptures:

1) The millions of Hafiz who have memorised the Qur'an cover to cover. This means that even if you were to burn every copy of the Qur'an in the world; we will easily reproduce it.

2) Qur'an was always recited and Allah Most High provided Muslims incentives to memorize and recite it. The word Qur'an is a derivative of Iqra(read) and Qari (recitor)

3) Qur'an was always recited as soon as it was revealed. It was not left in the confines of scribes or a select few to manage its preservation. The Qur'an mentions the scribes adulterated the previous scriptures. For example the scribes kept the bible and revealed it to Christians 300 years after Isa(AS) ascended. This was never the case with Islam.

4) To date even though Mohammad(SAW) prophececised that Muslims will split into 73 secs and the Majority will always be on truth. To date despite the number of secterian devision there has never been a dispute regarding what should be contained in the Qur'an. However there are always a minority who misinterpret them due to their arrogance and ignorance.

5) The grammar and rules of Arabic language is dictated by the Qur'an. So the language itself is being preserved. However this is not the case with other scriptures for example the Isa(AS) spoke and wrote the bible in Aramaic. Even if the translators intentions are sincere there will be transliteration problems as the language itself is non-existent thus bringing variances each time it's translated:
Race to save the language of Jesus: Aramaic in danger of becoming extinct as number of speakers of ancient tongue plummets | Mail Online


6) The Qur'an is as the Author of the book claims...

"This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah
Who believe in the unseen, establish prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them,
And who believe in what has been revealed to you, [O Muhammad], and what was revealed before you, and of the Hereafter they are certain [in faith]."

from Allah Most High; and we see no reason to believe otherwise. In it are revelations also regarding previous Prophets of Allah Most High who are innocent and sinless. And the coming of the leader of the Prophets and Massengers Mohammad :saws: has been foretold in the previous scriptures so it would have been better for Humanity had the Torah, Injil and other previous scriptures been preserved so they know who Mohammad :saws: was.

We cannot blame Allah Most High for the corruption of previous scriptures no more then we can blame God for allowing atrocities on earth; it's a result of people disobeying Allah Most high and practice of our free will to choose. But we are grateful for His mercy in guaranteeing the preservation of Qur'an by putting it in the hands of people who understood its importance and helping us learn from the mistakes of our forefathers.

regards

 

[Ahmad H]

2. If Allah could not prevent the previous books - Bible and Torah from being corrupted, what guarantee is there that the Koran is not corrupted?
In the first place, why didn't Allah protect His previous revelations? was he unable to protect it or didn't care that much that men will read a corrupted message?

I came across a clear answer for this and thought that it is the most important point to address first. For if the Qur'an is tampered with, then what assurance is there that Muslims will be guided for later on? The Holy Qur'an states:

15:9 We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).

This is Allah's assurance. So this is what we believe. As for the Torah being corrupted, I do not hold that the actual text was corrupted, but only the teachings were. I am going to quote an extract from the book Al-Fauz Al-Kabir, by Hazrat Shah Waliyullah (ra), who explained the sciences of the commentary of the Qur'an. He states:

[BEGIN QUOTE]
It should be kept in mind that the Jews would modify the translation of Pentateuch and not the original text. This is what has been ascertained by me on the authority of Ibn Abbas. By a change in the meaning is meant their corrupt interpretation; this they did by imparting a meaning different from what the verse originally denoted. In fact, this was a display of their violence and deviation from the right course.
[END QUOTE]
(from page 9 of the book.)

Thus, the revelation of the Torah is not considered to be changed by Muslims, just the translation of it. The significance of this is that the Muslims would follow the ways of the Jews and do exactly as they have done. Meaning, the Qur'an would not be corrupted by Muslims, but Muslims would corrupt the meanings of the Qur'an and would modify translations in order to fit their own agendas. This was prophesied by the Holy Prophet (saw), that the Muslims would become like the Jews, step by step, inch by inch, cubit by cubit. They would do exactly as they had done.

 

[ardianto]

Other than the Koran, what other proof is there that Muhammad is a true, and the last prophet? The Koran was only written and compiled a (few hundred years??) after his death. So at that time, before the Koran, what made the people that follow him believe that he was a true prophet?

In the time of prophet Muhammad, actually few of his companions started to write down Qur'an verses although just as personal note. And Qur'an started to written down officialy in form of book in the year 25 hijriah, 14 years after prophet Muhammad passed away.

There were many things that made people in that time follow prophet Muhammad, like his miracle, etc. I hope someone in this forum can give you link to stories about prophet Muhammad and his companions.

How do you know for sure that the Quran is the last one? The Bible also claim to be the final revelation so either it is corrupted by man, or Allah change his mind.

"Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and last of the prophets. And ever is Allah , of all things, Knowing."
(Al-Ahzab: 40)

Prophet Muhammad is the last of the prophets. It's means, Qur'an is the last holy book because if there's no the next prophet, then who will bring the next holy book?

I apologize because I know I'm being critical with my questioning....I'm just really curious to know why do muslims believe so strongly in Islam. In engineering terms, we have to do stress testing to make sure the parts we put into a lift or car can withstand the pressure/wear & tear. So that the lift or car is safe for people to use. Hope you can treat my questioning as sort of a stress test for the claims of Islam.

Before you ride a lift in tall building, did you do stress testing on this lift?. I am sure you didn't. But you still ride because you believe this lift is safe. And after you arrived on the destination floor you are sure that this lift is safe to be ridden again. If we use the lift analogy, then our position is not on those who make this lift, but on those who use this lift.

The cause why I become Muslim was simple, I was born in Muslim family. I didn't do a test to know is Islam the right religion or not. I just accepted the religion that I must accept. And then after I lived as practicing Muslim, I am convinced that I am on the right path.

As we know, life is not always easy. Often I got problem in my life. When I am in trouble, I always pray and bring myself closer to Allah, and I always feel His power. This is what make me sure that I already on the right path and I should not leave this path.

Daveyats, I very appreciate your critical attitude because it will make us can understand each other better and will make us can respect each other better too. I apologize too if you feel I offend you.

 

[Scimitar]

1. How do muslims know that Muhammad is a true prophet? Meaning what is the proof that his message was divine and infallible?

From watching youtube debates etc...I gather that the main evidence is that the Koran (his message) is unique. It is a book that we can't reproduce or create today hence it is divine. I personally think this is a very strange reasoning because I'm pretty sure no one can reproduce something like the Sanskrit manuscripts, the Bible or the Buddhist texts as well. The Koran is also not entirely original because it "borrowed" from the Bible and Torah. I mean "borrowed" in the sense that it is a continuation/correction of information/facts that were already there.

then you mean a "continuation" not a borrowing. A better term would be "completion" because it corrects the human inserted corruptions in the previous scriptures.

As for the bible - well there are "versions" of it, so you'd be wrong there - anyone can formulate a bible in the modern age - plenty of already groups do.

2. If Allah could not prevent the previous books - Bible and Torah from being corrupted, what guarantee is there that the Koran is not corrupted?
In the first place, why didn't Allah protect His previous revelations? was he unable to protect it or didn't care that much that men will read a corrupted message?

The other thing is, I understand the Old testament (including the Torah) and New Testament are complementary. meaning the corruption didn't just occur at the new testament, it had to occur with the old testament in order to complement the new testament.

That represents a good 500 if not 1000 years where the revelation of Allah was allowed to be corrupted.

First of all, nowhere in the previous scriptures does God tell the believers that HE will protect the scripture... only when the Quran is revealed do we find this:

“We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly Guard it (from corruption)” (15:9).

No such verse exists in the Torah or Gospel. And the Quran remains uncorrupted - So here is one proof - the other is in the fact that the Quran is still in its original form - memorized to heart by millions and millions of Muslims since the 7th century to date. Not even a letter has been changed, removed, inserted etc - it is as it was in the 7th century

3. Did Mohammed write down the messages himself? Or did someone else record it for him?

Appreciate any responses. Internet links will do but personal responses preferred. I'll keep my responses to a minimum to avoid potentially adding any fuel to this "fire".

The Prophet Muhammad pbuh could not read nor write - he spoke what God commanded him to speak... does this sound familiar to you?

Look:

18 I will raise up for them a prophet (Prophet) from among their brethren like you, and will put My words in his mouth; and he shall speak to them all that I command him. 19 And whoever will not hearken to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him. 20 But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die. —Deuteronomy 18:18-20

I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren like you - obviously refers to prophet Muhammad pbuh
He shall speak to them what I command him - The Quran was revealed to Muhammad from God through the arch angel Gabriel, and thus it was revealed as a perfected scripture which has withstood the test of time and proven itself to be the penultimate word of God as revealed to Muhammad pbuh.
Muhammad pbuh was the final prophet and messenger of God and he completed his mission given to him by God, and thus completes the seal of Prophethood.

"He said,
“The Lord came from Sinai and dawned from Seir upon us;
he shone forth from Mount Paran; he came from the ten thousand of holy ones, with flaming fire at his right hand." Deuteronomy 33:2

Samau-al al Maghribi (A Jewish mathematician who converted to Islam) referred to this verse in his book as a prophecy of Muhammad pbuh. He said that Mount Sinai refers to Moses, Mount Seir refers to Jesus, and Mount Paran refers to Muhammad peace be upon them. Some contemporary Muslim scholars have also pointed to the similarity between Deuteronomy 33:2 and Qur'an 95:1-3 where "the Fig and the Olive" refers to Jesus, "Mount Sinai" refers to Moses, and "Mecca" refers to Muhammad.
"the ten thousand of holy ones" are the ten thousand Companions of Prophet Muhammad pbuh.

"Behold! My Servant, whom I uphold; My Elect One, in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles. He shall not cry out, nor raise His voice, nor cause His voice to be heard in the street. A bruised reed shall He not break, and smoking flax shall He not quench. In truth He shall bring forth justice. He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till He has established justice in the earth; and the islands shall wait for His law." —Isaiah 42:1

Muhammad is believed by Muslims to be the Chosen Servant of God and his Light, while Christians believe that Jesus was the begotten God of God, not the servant of God. Thus, Christians have no right, argue some Muslim writers, to call Isaiah 42 a prophecy of Jesus. Qur'an 3:159, Qur'an 9:128 and Qur'an 68:4 shed a light on the gentle character of Muhammad, and from the time they knew him, Muslims looked at Muhammad as the mercy sent by God to all the creation. He did not cut down trees and made it law that cutting down trees during times of conquest was to be made illegal.

Sing unto the Lord a new song, and His praise from the ends of the earth, you who go down to the sea, and all that is therein, the islands, and the inhabitants thereof! Let the wilderness and its cities lift up their voice, the villages that Kedar inhabits. Let the inhabitants of Sela sing, let them shout from the top of the mountains. Let them give glory to the Lord, and declare His praise in the islands. The Lord shall go forth like a mighty man; He shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: He shall cry, yea, roar; He shall prevail against His enemies. —Isaiah 42:10

Isaiah 42:13 is believed to be a prophecy of the Muslim conquests. "the new song" is often interpreted as a reference to the Arabic Qur'an or to the Adhan "the Islamic call to prayer". The Islands could be a reference to Indonesia and Malaysia - housing the largest populous of Muslims in the world.
The mention of Mount Sela, "the mountain of Medina" and the mention of Kedar "the forefather of Muhammad", in verse 11, is also considered by Muslims to be a proof.

"Sing, O Barren, You who have not borne! Break ye forth into singing and cry aloud, You who have not laboured with child! For more are the children of the desolate Than the children of the married woman," says the Lord. - Isaiah 54:1

The "Barren One" is Mecca, since no prophet was born to it before Muhammad pbuh.

"Have not labored with child" means "have not received a prophet".
According to theologists - "Desolate woman" refers to Hagar and "Married woman" refers to Sarah
"Enlarge the place of your tent, Stretch your Curtains wide, do not hold back; lengthen your cords, strengthen your stakes, for you will spread out to the right and to the left"
This passage refers to the Muslim conquests.

The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
"Prepare the way of the Lord; Make straight in the desert
A highway for our God. - Isaiah 40:3

Isaiah 40:3-5 as a prophecy of Muhammad is also common among Muslims. The Kaaba is the direction all Muslims face in prayer and we make the pilgrimage to it once in a lifetime if possible. The Kaaba is in Mecca, a city built in a desert valley, surrounded by deserts.
God will come from the south, and the holy one from mount Pharan: His glory covered the heavens, and the earth is full of his praise. - Habakkuk 3:3
Since there is no connection between Jesus pbuh and Mount Paran "the Mount of Ishmael", the "holy one" in this verse is Muhammad pbuh.

I can go on and on and on... but you get the idea.

Scimi

 

[MuslimInshallah]

Other than the Koran, what other proof is there that Muhammad is a true, and the last prophet?

Smile. Ah Daveyats! This is a bit like saying: apart from the US having the most terrifying military capacity on the planet, why should we listen to the Americans?


The Qur'an is a most amazing book! Unfortunately, you've probably just read bits of it, and perhaps from a translation of questionable quality. There are, unfortunately, ideologically-driven translations out there. And there is also the fact that even the most sincere believer has his or her own weaknesses and persectives.


The Qur'an is a most amazing Book! I have read the Bible (both old and new testaments), various Hindu and Buddhist scriptures, Bahai texts, I've had a look at the Book of Mormon, I've heard speak, and talked with Native Canadians about their spiritual ideas... I have looked for God everywhere, and you you know what? I have seen Him in many places. The Book of Mormon was dead to me. Some Bahai texts are beautifully written. Poetic, even. But somehow, flavourless. But I heard God in the words of an Algonquin woman, and I saw some of His Words shining out at me from amongst the text of the Baghavad Gita. And I saw many more Words calling to me from the Bible.


But the Qur'an... even in translation, the words seemed brighter, more filled with His Colour. Yes, it was a mystical experience. I believe that God did this for me because I could not directly access His Words with my mind. So He strengthened the message through my Heart.


But the more I accessed the Qur'an with my mind... Oh Daveyats! It is so amazingly Beautiful! It's like looking at a fractal. It is beautiful even from a distance. But it is breathtaking to look more closely at the fractal, and see the intricate pattern repeating into infinity...


The more I study the Qur'an (in Arabic), the more I find I am being told. I have read the same surah many times, and each time I examine it more closely, I find something new. And so very clever! I've read Shakespeare and Chaucer, and I enjoy them. And it is fun to look at their texts more closely to tease out the subtleties within. But they are nothing close to the Qur'an! No human could have written this.


So when you say “Other than the Qur'an... what proof...?”, it is just plain funny.

The Koran was only written and compiled a (few hundred years??) after his death.


As for the Qur'an being written hundreds of years after the Prophet (PBUH)... This is just simply false (where are you getting your information from?!). The Prophet (PBUH) recited it and the Companions memorized it. And they also wrote it down on loose pieces of palm leaves, and bones and bits of wood. After the Prophet died (PBUH), and the Qur'an started to spread outside of the local Arabic-speaking people, there was a concern that the non-native speakers might start to drift from the original, and write down erroneous texts (in fact, this started to happen). So the ruler at the time (I don't recall exactly whom off the top of my head, but it was one of the first 4 ruling Companions) asked one of the wives of the Prophet (May He be Pleased with her) to help another Companion to put together the original text (she had a complete copy on loose leaf, as I recall). The text was carefully gone over by various of the Companions of the Prophet (May God Bless them all), and several copies were eventually produced (this was in the days before the printing press...). Two of them are still extant, I believe. One is in Turkey, if I'm not mistaken, and another in Kazakhstan or Kyrgyzstan (sorry, I tend to mix the two). [I don't have the particular reference at hand, but try The Cambridge Companion to the Qur'an edited by Jane Dammen McAuliffe, Chapter 7: From palm leaves to the internet. It's missing some information I've seen elsewhere, but it makes an honest effort. It also notes that a particular (non-Muslim, I deeply suspect) scholar is trying to make the argument that the Qur'an was written much later than evidence suggests. You should know that many "experts" in Islamic Studies in the so-called "West" are not Muslims, and some have frankly hostile agendas. It's getting better than it was, but still…it must be borne in mind when reading these texts].



Though you know... smile... the oral memorized version is considered the authoritative one. And that has never been lost.

 

[Insaanah]

As for the Torah being corrupted, I do not hold that the actual text was corrupted, but only the teachings were.

Thus, the revelation of the Torah is not considered to be changed by Muslims, just the translation of it.

brother Ahmad H,

The Qur'an states that both the words themselves, and the meanings were also changed. Both types of changes went on. This ayah tells us the the text was also changed.

So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah ," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn. [2:79]

Changing/twisting meanings is mentioned separately. Concealing also went on. This post has some relevant verses:

http://www.islamicboard.com/clarifi...nce-quran-true-world-allah-2.html#post1531055

If you believe that the text of the Torah wasn't changed, and is what Allah revealed, then the implications of that must be considered carefully, as the Torah as it stands says that Nuh alyhissalaam became drunken, and that Lut alayhissalaam committed incest (we seek Allah's refuge from such words or beliefs).

 

[daveyats]

Before you ride a lift in tall building, did you do stress testing on this lift?. I am sure you didn't. But you still ride because you believe this lift is safe. And after you arrived on the destination floor you are sure that this lift is safe to be ridden again. If we use the lift analogy, then our position is not on those who make this lift, but on those who use this lift.

The cause why I become Muslim was simple, I was born in Muslim family. I didn't do a test to know is Islam the right religion or not. I just accepted the religion that I must accept. And then after I lived as practicing Muslim, I am convinced that I am on the right path.

As we know, life is not always easy. Often I got problem in my life. When I am in trouble, I always pray and bring myself closer to Allah, and I always feel His power. This is what make me sure that I already on the right path and I should not leave this path.

Daveyats, I very appreciate your critical attitude because it will make us can understand each other better and will make us can respect each other better too. I apologize too if you feel I offend you.

I enjoy talking with you Ardi. I agree with you that most people won't take the lift and question whether it is safe. We just take it on good faith that the people who certified the lift safe for use have done the stress testing and done their job with integrity. But if there are any doubts, there is a certificate in the lift that tells you when the testing was done, and done by whom. If the company that did the testing has a history of lift accidents, then you might not want to put your faith in their lift. If the company that tested the lift is reliable, then you can reasonably believe that nothing will happen to you even if you take the lift everyday... i think that is how we should approach matters of faith and religion. (I'm not suggesting that islam is like a bad company, this is just an example)

my story is quite similar to yours. I was born into a christian family and for most part of my life I considered myself a christian. until I encountered Jesus Christ myself...and I realised that there is no such thing as a born-christian. even as a christian for many years, I still ask or encounter critical questions about my own faith...e.g. if God is good why does he allow suffering? etc. and it is such questions that cause me to search for answers and strengthen my faith..

 

[Muhaba]

One of the greatest miracles of the Quran is that it is unchanged. God promised to preserve it and He has kept His promise for more than 1400 years. The Quran in Arabic (which is the original) can not be altered. Every Arabic Quran in the world (and there are billions) is exactly the same as every other Quran. Not a difference of a single letter! And that is proof enough that the Quran is the Word of God.

There are other proofs too. But this is one great proof. for more than 1400 years, no one has been able to change the Quran!

 

[Muhaba]

Qur'an started to written down in form of book (officially) after prophet Muhammad passed away.

You are wrong about that. The Quran was written down from the start. The Prophet (SAW) had more than 40 scribes and he would call them whenever a verse or Surah was revealed. He would then recite the verse(s) (or Surah) and tell the scribes where to place it in the written Quran, before such a Surah / after such a Surah / before such and such verse / after such and suce verse. Thus the Quran was not only written in the time of the Prophet (SAW) but was also compiled in order. Furthermore, the Prophet (SAW) would send the written Quran along with a reciter (Qari) and not just send a Qari to a people to teach them the Quran. This proves that the Quran was in book form from the beginning and only the memorization was not depended on.

 

[syed_z]

You are wrong about that. The Quran was written down from the start. The Prophet (SAW) had more than 40 scribes and he would call them whenever a verse or Surah was revealed. He would then recite the verse(s) (or Surah) and tell the scribes where to place it in the written Quran, before such a Surah / after such a Surah / before such and such verse / after such and suce verse. Thus the Quran was not only written in the time of the Prophet (SAW) but was also compiled in order. Furthermore, the Prophet (SAW) would send the written Quran along with a reciter (Qari) and not just send a Qari to a people to teach them the Quran. This proves that the Quran was in book form from the beginning and only the memorization was not depended on.

Salaam Sister, would like to correct you here

The Quran was revealed over a period of 23 Hundred Years of Prophet's ministry and it was memorized by several of his companions. These revelations till the passing away of Prophet (saw) were compiled in the order and arrangement on the instructions of the Prophet himself, exactly as we have the arrangements of the Surahs/Chapters today but only existed in the form of Suhuf (loose pieces of writing materials) for example on paper, dry animal skin, date skins, papyrus etc.

When many of the Huffaz i.e. who memorized the Quran by heart died in the Battle of Yamamah it became utmost imp to compile the Quran in to a Mushaf i.e. Book form before it gets lost in the past. Thus a Mushaf was prepared which was kept with Ayesha (r.a) during the Caliphate of Abu Bakr (r.a) and with Hafsa (r.a), wife of the Prophet (saw), during the time of Caliphate of Umar (r.a).

As Islam kept spreading and other lands came under the dominion of Islam, people in Iraq and Syria who had met a companion of Prophet began to recite their own reading of the Quran because they held that their's was correct because they had learnt from an eminent companion such as Abdullah Ibn Masud (r.a) or Miqdad (r.a). This could have become a cause of division and So during the Caliphate of Uthman (r.a) the copy with Hafsa (r.a) was officially published and spread throughout the Muslim world and all other readings of the Quran which Muslims from a particular city or tribe held 'as the only sacred one' were ordered to be collected and burned. It is this copy that we have in our possession today, the entire Muslim world.

So it was never compiled in a Mushaf form till after the passing away of Prophet (saw).

 

[daveyats]

I won't dispute that the Quran is perfectly preserved since its creation. Like I said, I don't have much knowledge of Islam and I'm not here to cynically challenge muslims here. I didn't even read the Koran. I'm just asking the theological questions that I might have asked if I were a skeptic. and it just happens that I'm a Christian so there is some comparison between the claims made by our two religions.

Firstly, I'm not blaming God for allowing the bible to be corrupted by men. I'm asking who is the God of the Koran - what is his character and nature - by examining why God would allow the bible to be corrupted.

Why did he allow the bible to be corrupted?
1. Is he weak and unable to prevent the corruption? if yes, then He is not almighty.
2. Was he unable to foresee that those entrusted with the message will corrupt it? If yes, then he is finite in his knowledge.
3. Did He change His mind? if yes, then he is not eternally unchanging or constant, then there is also no guarantee he will not change his mind about the Koran.
4. Did he choose not to care that men will read a corrupted message? (bear in mind that the Koran came 600 years after the Bible...i read this in another thread) if yes, then what guarantee is there that the Koran does not contain any corruption? It may be perfectly preserved in its current form but what if mistakes were introduced from the very start?

just my critical questions...like I said, its not a challenge to muslims here. just my 2 cts, you can treat it as food for thought or just ramblings from a non-believer if you want.

 

[daveyats]

Other than the Koran, what other proof is there that Muhammad is a true, and the last prophet?

Smile. Ah Daveyats! This is a bit like saying: apart from the US having the most terrifying military capacity on the planet, why should we listen to the Americans?


The Qur'an is a most amazing book! Unfortunately, you've probably just read bits of it, and perhaps from a translation of questionable quality. There are, unfortunately, ideologically-driven translations out there. And there is also the fact that even the most sincere believer has his or her own weaknesses and persectives.


The Qur'an is a most amazing Book! I have read the Bible (both old and new testaments), various Hindu and Buddhist scriptures, Bahai texts, I've had a look at the Book of Mormon, I've heard speak, and talked with Native Canadians about their spiritual ideas... I have looked for God everywhere, and you you know what? I have seen Him in many places. The Book of Mormon was dead to me. Some Bahai texts are beautifully written. Poetic, even. But somehow, flavourless. But I heard God in the words of an Algonquin woman, and I saw some of His Words shining out at me from amongst the text of the Baghavad Gita. And I saw many more Words calling to me from the Bible.


But the Qur'an... even in translation, the words seemed brighter, more filled with His Colour. Yes, it was a mystical experience. I believe that God did this for me because I could not directly access His Words with my mind. So He strengthened the message through my Heart.


But the more I accessed the Qur'an with my mind... Oh Daveyats! It is so amazingly Beautiful! It's like looking at a fractal. It is beautiful even from a distance. But it is breathtaking to look more closely at the fractal, and see the intricate pattern repeating into infinity...


The more I study the Qur'an (in Arabic), the more I find I am being told. I have read the same surah many times, and each time I examine it more closely, I find something new. And so very clever! I've read Shakespeare and Chaucer, and I enjoy them. And it is fun to look at their texts more closely to tease out the subtleties within. But they are nothing close to the Qur'an! No human could have written this.


So when you say “Other than the Qur'an... what proof...?”, it is just plain funny.

The Koran was only written and compiled a (few hundred years??) after his death.


As for the Qur'an being written hundreds of years after the Prophet (PBUH)... This is just simply false (where are you getting your information from?!). The Prophet (PBUH) recited it and the Companions memorized it. And they also wrote it down on loose pieces of palm leaves, and bones and bits of wood. After the Prophet died (PBUH), and the Qur'an started to spread outside of the local Arabic-speaking people, there was a concern that the non-native speakers might start to drift from the original, and write down erroneous texts (in fact, this started to happen). So the ruler at the time (I don't recall exactly whom off the top of my head, but it was one of the first 4 ruling Companions) asked one of the wives of the Prophet (May He be Pleased with her) to help another Companion to put together the original text (she had a complete copy on loose leaf, as I recall). The text was carefully gone over by various of the Companions of the Prophet (May God Bless them all), and several copies were eventually produced (this was in the days before the printing press...). Two of them are still extant, I believe. One is in Turkey, if I'm not mistaken, and another in Kazakhstan or Kyrgyzstan (sorry, I tend to mix the two). [I don't have the particular reference at hand, but try The Cambridge Companion to the Qur'an edited by Jane Dammen McAuliffe, Chapter 7: From palm leaves to the internet. It's missing some information I've seen elsewhere, but it makes an honest effort. It also notes that a particular (non-Muslim, I deeply suspect) scholar is trying to make the argument that the Qur'an was written much later than evidence suggests. You should know that many "experts" in Islamic Studies in the so-called "West" are not Muslims, and some have frankly hostile agendas. It's getting better than it was, but still…it must be borne in mind when reading these texts].



Though you know... smile... the oral memorized version is considered the authoritative one. And that has never been lost.

What would you say to a person who after your thread says -"I have the exact same experience as you. I've read many religious text but none spoke so personally and deeply as ________ (insert your choice of religious text)"

I don't doubt the reality of your experience with the Koran...and personally I admire your effort to read all those text...sometimes I even fall asleep while reading the bible at bedtime :embarrass

but i think a skeptic would say that the Koran is only experientially real to you. It is your personal preference and not necessarilty objectively true. Someone might pick up the Koran and have a completely different experience from you.

 

[daveyats]

then you mean a "continuation" not a borrowing. A better term would be "completion" because it corrects the human inserted corruptions in the previous scriptures.

As for the bible - well there are "versions" of it, so you'd be wrong there - anyone can formulate a bible in the modern age - plenty of already groups do.

I'm being really critical and skeptical here...it could very well be a borrowing and alteration of the bible. just like what Joseph Smith did with the mormon bible. but to determine that would take some effort in comparing the reliability of the bible vs the koran.

I'm not sure if you're saying that there are many 'versions' of the bible out of ignorance because there is only one version with many translations. I don't think you mean that, because i googled the koran verses (Quran 2:256) and it brought me to a webpage with 9 different english translations of the original text. I'm not sure if you're referring to chapters that were left out of it? cos those were written by gnostics and rejected by the early church (disclaimer: don't hear it from me). I read one of those before, I think it was the book of Enoch and its quite apparent to me why the claim to be divinely inspired was rejected.

First of all, nowhere in the previous scriptures does God tell the believers that HE will protect the scripture... only when the Quran is revealed do we find this:

“We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly Guard it (from corruption)” (15:9).

No such verse exists in the Torah or Gospel. And the Quran remains uncorrupted - So here is one proof - the other is in the fact that the Quran is still in its original form - memorized to heart by millions and millions of Muslims since the 7th century to date. Not even a letter has been changed, removed, inserted etc - it is as it was in the 7th century

but what if the bible does say that it is the complete revelation of God? then logically, you'll have to say that it is the work of men who corrupted it...yes?

 

[Scimitar]

I'm being really critical and skeptical here...it could very well be a borrowing and alteration of the bible. just like what Joseph Smith did with the mormon bible. but to determine that would take some effort in comparing the reliability of the bible vs the koran.

I'm not sure if you're saying that there are many 'versions' of the bible out of ignorance because there is only one version with many translations. I don't think you mean that, because i googled the koran verses (Quran 2:256) and it brought me to a webpage with 9 different english translations of the original text. I'm not sure if you're referring to chapters that were left out of it? cos those were written by gnostics and rejected by the early church (disclaimer: don't hear it from me). I read one of those before, I think it was the book of Enoch and its quite apparent to me why the claim to be divinely inspired was rejected.

No... there are many versions of the bible - and I am not referring to translations.

Even the versions have been translated into many languages so you need to work out that when I say "versions" I do mean "versions".

For example, which version do you follow? KJV? NIV? which one? pick any from these "versions" and you will also find them "translated" into other languages.

King James Version (KJV)
New International Version (NIV)
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
New King James Version (NKJV)
English Standard Version (ESV)
New Living Translation (NLT)
Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
New Century Version (NCV)
New English Bible (NEB)
American Standard Version (ASV)
Good News Bible (GNB) / Today’s English Version (TEV)
Amplified Bible (AMP)
Today’s New International Version (TNIV)
New English Translation (NET)
Revised Standard Version (RSV)
Contemporary English Version (CEV)
God’s Word Translation (GW)
Common English Bible (CEB)
New International Readers Version (NIrV)
Easy-To-Read Version (ERV)
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
Bible in Basic English (BBE)
21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
World English Bible (WEB)
Revised English Bible (REB)
Jerusalem Bible (JB)
New American Bible (NAB)
The Living Bible (TLB)
The Message (MSG)
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
The Bishops' Bible
Douay-Rheims Version (DRV)
Tyndale Bible
Geneva Bible

NOTE: A "version" is not a "translation", dig?

but what if the bible does say that it is the complete revelation of God? then logically, you'll have to say that it is the work of men who corrupted it...yes?

No I wouldn't - look, it's really simple - the Torah was literally burned into the rock and handed to Moses pbuh - what did the Jews do to it? Made mince pies out of it.

No holy book has ever been given the promise of God that HE will protect it from corruption except for the Quran.

Scimi

 

[syed_z]

Why did he allow the bible to be corrupted?
1. Is he weak and unable to prevent the corruption? if yes, then He is not almighty.
2. Was he unable to foresee that those entrusted with the message will corrupt it? If yes, then he is finite in his knowledge.
3. Did He change His mind? if yes, then he is not eternally unchanging or constant, then there is also no guarantee he will not change his mind about the Koran.
4. Did he choose not to care that men will read a corrupted message? (bear in mind that the Koran came 600 years after the Bible...i read this in another thread) if yes, then what guarantee is there that the Koran does not contain any corruption? It may be perfectly preserved in its current form but what if mistakes were introduced from the very start?

Hi Daveyats,

I would like to share a Verse of the Quran explaining why Allah (swt) has sent different books to different nations and why has He decided to send down the Quran as the Final Message, but before I can do that, if we for a moment keep aside the discussion and the tampering of Bible, I would like to know from you, What is the Guidance that Allah (swt) has provided for other nations around the world? Is it the Bible then? Has it been sent for all mankind? If yes then how is that correct, does it say in the Bible? Also If Bible is the last and final guidance from God, Al Mighty then did He decide to cease the process of revelation with Jesus (a.s)? Why did God decide to cease the process of revelation?