The Feminists

:sl:

i think the west should worry about liberating their own women before anything :rolleyes:
 
amani said:
:sl:

i think the west should worry about liberating their own women before anything :rolleyes:
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:sl:
In the West, freedom often means 'freedom to...'. According to our history teacher, this is a perspective typical of the right-wing. The other perspective is 'Freedom from...', which is the one your using. This is more common to left-wingers.
:w:
 
Sum-Muslim-Gal said:
womens right ok...why do women get oppressed through culture right...
religion teaches women to be equal to men...feminist they are tooo extreme in the fact that they want to be better than men or suprior than men...society has changed alot from back inthe old days and i can tell u women now adays can do what they want ....yes being a sociology student has helped me alot about the society we live in today...all these feminists want is more right than men...n i dont see why they actually want that because women are having evry oportunity to actually build up on their career path etc....and i have a mind to cristise right as i am socilogy student after all...what do these women want ...do they want to take the role of men[bredwinner] and men take over the role of women[instrumental role]... yes in other parts of the country u do have that oppression of women not being able to be free beause of male dominate society..but u cannot blame the men for that its purely culture..not islam what so ever..islam lets women do alot of things as long its with in the islamic law...

n my socilogy teacher...RUBBISH..*puuuhhh*...N i came out with an A grade in my exam..ok...feminsts i understand...they go to far with it..i do understand them in some issues...but i can hosly today in society women are free..
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You don't necessarily have to understand the material you are studying in order to pass an exam. I'm glad you got the A but unfortunately, you don't have the knowledge to show for it because you are wrong on so many accounts.

Feminists did not start out to be seen as superior to men! They lived in a society where the woman was literally a second class citizen and decided something had to be done. They wanted EQUAL rights. Culture, religious ideology, whatever. Why they were seen to be of such a low social class is another issue entirely and you will find that both religion and culture will play a role.

It was only a couple of decades ago was sex discrimination outlawed and women were given the vote. Women are STILL today in what you see to be a 'free society for women' fighting to be seen as equals in the workplace and actually get their employers to implement the laws in place! Yes, todays society is more free than it was 100 years ago for women, but i doubt much of that would have happened if it hadn't been for the feminist movement.
 
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strider said:
You don't necessarily have to understand the material you are studying in order to pass an exam. I'm glad you got the A but unfortunately, you don't have the knowledge to show for it because you are wrong on so many accounts.

Feminists did not start out to be seen as superior to men! They lived in a society where the woman was literally a second class citizen and decided something had to be done. Culture, religious ideology, whatever. Why they were seen to be of such a low social class is another issue entirely and you will find that both religion and culture will play a role.

It was only a couple of decades ago was sex discrimination outlawed and women were given the vote. Women are STILL today in what you see to be a 'free society for women' fighting to be seen as equals in the workplace and actually get their employers to implement the laws in place! Yes, todays society is more free than it was 100 years ago for women, but i doubt much of that would have happened if it hadn't been for the feminist movement.
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:sl:
I agree. Some feminism is good, and has done many things for the equality of women. But what I object to is the arrogant feminists who say that religion should not interfere with a woman's life. These people are saying one of two things. Either they believe that women are superior to men and that Allaah (swt)'s commandments don't apply to them, or that Islam was invented by men. In the former case, they are extremely arrogant, and in the latter, they are simply religious extremists who try to covertly push their befiefs on others.
:w:
 
lavikor201 said:
Would you care to elaborate how women in the west are not "Liberated"?
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:sl:
Nobody is free in the West. The capitalists control everything, creating a consumerist society. The women are especially vunerable, and things like fashion have been made by men so that they get the money of women. Women pierce holes in their body, spend thousands on cosmetics and have gel implanted into themselves in order to please men.
:w:
 
Fishman said:
:sl:
Nobody is free in the West. The capitalists control everything, creating a consumerist society. The women are especially vunerable, and things like fashion have been made by men so that they get the money of women. Women pierce holes in their body, spend thousands on cosmetics and have gel implanted into themselves in order to please men.
:w:
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Oh wouldn't it be nice to live in a perfect world. :hiding: :grumbling
 
Nobody is free in the West. The capitalists control everything, creating a consumerist society.
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The capitalists aren't a royal family that have all the power, or a ditator who opresses his people like what we know of in some part of the world. Anyone can be a capatalist. It just depends on how well your buissness does ect. In reality, the consumers control the capatalists because the capitalists depend on the consumers so you have it all wrong.

The women are especially vunerable, and things like fashion have been made by men so that they get the money of women.
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Many things like "fashion" have been created by men, but the point is that the women have the choice to wear the fashions or to not where them, unlike the very strict dresscode many have in other parts of the world.

Women pierce holes in their body, spend thousands on cosmetics and have gel implanted into themselves in order to please men.
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All women do not spend thousands of dollars on there bodies to please men. That is naive, to think that, but since we are discussing it, is it not freedom or liberation that gives them the CHOICE to decide if they want to or not. It isn't like some man is forcing them to make choices like that, and it isn't like some parts of the world which they have no choices. But excuse me for playing devils advocate.
 
On many occasions I have said the concept of Superiority is the easiest sell in the world and there are millions who are willing to buy.

It is not surprising that some men out there buy male superiority.

Misogynistic men have been finding so called “Valid Reasons” to keep women down since there were more than two men.

I said my piece. I'm off for the day :playing:
To some: Enjoy your misogynistc discrimination. :grumbling :grumbling
 
Salam Alaikum:

Well, I for one, am extremely thankful that Allah, swt, knew the value and equality of women to men so much so that He preserved our right of equality in the Qur'an. No longer were women pieces of disposable property, no longer could baby girls be buried alive, no longer could men take and keep our property...we were raised up to even standards 1400 years ago. We were given all the rights many other women had to fight for and, in some cases, are still fighting for.

The definition of equality can vary depending on who you are talking to. Do I want men to treat me as they treat other men? No, I don't. I like having the door opened for me, I love knowing my husband will care about me and protect me. Does that mean I am unable to open a door or care and protect myself? Of course not. Do I want my opinion to carry the same weight as my male counterpart? Of course. Do I want the right to own my own property and not be treated as property? Definitely. Do I want to be able to vote for the government I feel will best serve society? Absolutely. Do I want the right to be educated with the same high standards available to men? Yes! These are only a few examples of what Islam gave to women.

Whether anyone likes it or not, men and women are different. There are always exceptions to these differences, but different we are. Men, as a general rule, are physically stronger. Women, as a general rule, are more nurturing. Therefore, Islam has made us equal in our contributions to society but gave us different responsiblities in other areas. For example, because of the nurturing character of women, they are responsible for the care of children and the home. Feminists don't often recognize the importance of this role for women. What greater contribution to society than to choose to raise our next generation? This is not something to be frowned upon, it is a choice that should be applauded and respected. Men have the responsiblity of providing for their family. Is this so wrong? A man willing to work hard to feed his wife and children, clothe them and provide housing should also be applauded and respected. The husband and wife work together to build a strong family unit....different in function, but equal in importance.

Some feminists look at this situation as degrading towards women and this, in my opinion, is where the feminist movement goes too far. When they fight for the right to vote, the right to own property, etc., they are right to do so as this is a basic right for all people regardless of gender. Equal pay for equal work? This should be a given. A man and women who are equally qualified and given the exact same job should receive the exact same pay with the exact same benefits. However, let's look at the reality of such a situation. Let's assume both the man and woman have children. The man supports his stay at home wife and children. The woman contributes financially to support her family. When their children gets the flu...who is more apt to stay home? The vast majority of the time, it will be the woman who will care for the sick child. When the child has an appointment with a doctor or specialist...who will be more apt to take the child? When the school calls because a child has been injured or became sick...who will be more likely to leave work to go home? When the caregiver suddenly cancels at the last minute...which one is more likely to not to go to work that day?

It's not that men are incapable of caring for a child, there are many wonderful fathers out there, but that doesn't change the fact that the responsibility of caring for children, generally falls on the woman. So, with all this extra time away from work, who is really being treated unfairly? The man spends more hours at work and receives his same pay and benefits. The woman spends less hours at work and receives the same pay and benefits. Does this mean women shouldn't work? Of course not. Does this mean she, as an employee is less valuable? Definitely not. But, she made the choice to be a working mom and running into overdrive to juggle both becomes her responsibility, not the employer's nor her other, equally qualified male counterpart's.

So, things aren't always so "equal" in all situations.

Alhamdulillah, Islam makes the distinction easy for us and defines our roles that are different, but equally important.

Remember, this example is of a man and women who are equal in all aspects of job performance. It is not about impoverished families, single parents, etc. Not all things can be equal, because quite frankly, life is not equal and there are always exceptions to the rules. But, what I tried to show in my example is that even when things are apparently EQUAL, the reality is...they are not.

wa'alaikum salam,
Hana
 
Tania said:
I think if the women would have been presidents :) would have been much more peace in the world. - would rule the peace
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i don't think this is necessarily true at all. look at condoliza rice, a black woman. does she have a different mentality simply because she has dark skin and is a female?
 
lol tania you must think all women are pure or something, trust me theres women versions of bush out there :p
 
to western men(not the women)-come to Bangladesh see all the oppression by men on their women,show these oppression to me and then lecture me about women's rights.

I don't like feminists in Bangladesh.Becuz everytime they talk about women's rights they abuse the prophet(PBUH).

They hate women, don't they?

Muslim and secular feminists pity one another. It is time they realised they have much common ground

Arzu Merali
Friday June 21, 2002
The Guardian

"It must be terrible having to wear all that," a friend of mine was told last December as she attended a meeting to discuss the future of Afghanistan, particularly its women - "all that" being some baggy clothing and a headscarf.

"Not particularly," she retorted, putting an abrupt end both to the conversation and to the prospect of building bridges between Muslim and secular feminists.

My friend is the founder of an NGO dedicated to penal reform. A convert to Islam, she is as British and as white as the participant who so earnestly assumed she was a victim of the Taliban and in need of liberation. No doubt the woman meant well, but no amount of good intentions justifies the way that she, like many others, berates Islam for embodying all things anti-women. This misconception predates the Rushdie era - indeed, so oppressed were we deemed to be in the 80s that even an illicit affair with Ricky Butcher in EastEnders provided an avenue of liberation.


The Islamic Human Rights Commission receives case after case of employers and educators using this image of the downtrodden Muslim woman to excuse discrimination. Muslim women are denied many opportunities on the assumption that they will - if not on a whim then by force - get married, or have many children. Or they face the horrendous dilemma of having to choose between employment and their Islamic garb.

Muslim women have become an absolute symbol of oppression, and distorted images of them permeate news coverage. While Daisy Cutters began to thunder down on Afghans last year, journalists from across the political spectrum - from Boris Johnson in the Telegraph to Polly Toynbee on these pages - maintained that it was Islam that oppressed Afghan women. Beware Muslims, they screamed in their unlikely unanimity. They hate women, don't they?

As soon as they turn their attentions to Islam, commentators become missionaries. Muslim women must be saved from a religion that reviles, objectifies and veils them. Everything is proof of this. Afghan women had to wear the head-to-toe burka (although it turns out they did not); were not allowed to work (although they did); and could not vote (nor could men under Mullah Omar's regime).

Even an Iranian (yes, Iranian) movie has become part of the iconography of the campaign to rescue the Afghan and, by extension, Islamic woman. Mohsen Makhmalbaf's Kandahar has been held up as a critique of Islam and its treatment of women. The fact that it may actually be an appraisal of the Taliban's prejudices is a subtlety grasped only by a few. It is almost impossible to find a mainstream critique of the horror of the Taliban that is not itself an Islamophobic diatribe. Muslims, who could provide such a critique, are left out of the debate. Their reactions might as well not exist.

The cartoonish realisation of long-held prejudices in the Taliban's Afghanistan has given succour to an anti-Islamic clamour that the experiences of "western" and "Muslim" women are utterly distinct. While western women are assumed to have, or at least be approaching, equality with men, Muslim women are simply the victims of terror and oppression. So unfettered are western women in this scenario that they are what, according to Johnson, "Islamic terrorists" are really afraid of.

But this language of liberation disguises an exclusionary discourse. Conversions in the west are increasing and more women than men opt for the faith. Perhaps, the argument goes, they are not able to see how oppressive their choice is. Donning the headscarf as a means of negotiating modernity invites contempt for Muslim women's non-conformity to a single vision of female emancipation. "No letters please from British women who have taken the veil and claim it's liberating," Polly Toynbee wrote not so long ago. "It is their right in a tolerant society to wear anything, including rubber fetishes." Either insane or masochistic, the motives and beliefs of Muslim women are voiced by everybody except themselves.

The polarisation and misrepresentation works both ways, however. Marginalised Muslims have accused liberal society of objectifying, reviling and unveiling women. Western society, they charge, is pornographic, voyeuristic and exploitative. The gender pay gap is shocking. None of this would happen in a truly Islamic society. Women's financial independence and property rights are absolute in Islam. No woman is considered a commodity and pornographers would face punishments.

While the gap between Muslims and the west is widening the most striking feature of each other's critiques of their treatment of women is the lack of dissimilarity. Violence, workplace discrimination, educational opportunity and a desire for basic respect from men are universal issues.

Whether we are western, Muslim, both or neither, we must wake up to the possibility that what we see as problematic for women is much the same whoever and wherever we are. Plastered over billboards, or banished from view, women are subjugated by patriarchy. Demeaning Islam excludes the voices of Islamic women and that liberates no one.

· Arzu Merali is director of research for the Islamic Human Rights Commission.
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,,741269,00.html
 
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Emir Aziz said:
to western men(not the women)-come to Bangladesh see all the oppression by men on their women,show these oppression to me and then lecture me about women's rights.

I don't like feminists in Bangladesh.Becuz everytime they talk about women's rights they abuse the prophet(PBUH).



http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,,741269,00.html
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:O jazakhala for article .....

Leave Tania alone! her replies cute mashaAllah, some people are so rude on this thread astaghfirullah!

I think everyone should use the word 'some' :)

-'some feminists' think blah blah blah

-'some women' say blah blah blah

:offended:

imsad ok Thanks!



:rollseyes
 
lavikor201 said:
Would you care to elaborate how women in the west are not "Liberated"?
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Peace

coupla examples. a woman is paid less for a job that a man is also doing. thats free?
a woman hits a glass roof in the career world. thats fine?
 
amani said:
Peace

coupla examples. a woman is paid less for a job that a man is also doing. thats free?
a woman hits a glass roof in the career world. thats fine?
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I know this wasn't directed at me, but i would just like to make a point, inshaAllah. Of course it isn't fair that women aren't seen to be of the same worth as men in some sectors of society. But this is precisely the thing that feminists(btw men can be 'feminists' too) campaign for!
 
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strider said:
I know this wasn't directed to be, but i would just like to make a point, inshaAllah. Of course it isn't fair that women aren't seen to be of the same worth as men in some sectors of society. But this is precisely the thing that feminists(btw men can be 'feminists' too) campaign for!
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I never thought of my self as a feminist but I guess I am. ;D :uuh: :playing:
 
coupla examples. a woman is paid less for a job that a man is also doing. thats free?
a woman hits a glass roof in the career world. thats fine?
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Actually there are laws in the United States, and other western countries pertaining to womens salaries. What you just said is illegal in the USA and the Western world. Is it illegal in the Middle East to pay women less?
 

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