The Law of God.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you wilberhum

That is "Your" definition of god's laws. It is not universal. Why do you think that is so?

When you try and interpret the priority of mans law you might start with murder as that is the most final crime someone can commit. Stealing sweets from the corner shop would be a low priority.

From a Christian perception Jesus tells us what is greatest we do not have to guess and he hangs all the law and the prophets on the two greatest commandments. So if a Christian law maker was to bring out a new law today he would start off by asking; how does this new law show that we love God by loving our neighbour as we love ourselves?

In the news recently it appears some hedge fund managers are only having to pay ten percent capital gains tax on profit ranging in the hundreds of millions of pounds. Other people have to pay forty percent tax on these large gains. You could ask how do the laws that allow this to happen hang on loving God and loving our neighbour? Clearly this abuse of personal gain goes against the spirit of the greatest commandments.

The laws of God are more to protect the poor, the marginalised and disadvantaged. Mans laws tend to favour the rich and the powerful.

Can you tell me one of those "Perfect laws"? One that secular laws don't cover.

I am stuck for time, but I believe the answer to this rests with the parable of the Good Samaritan.

In the spirit of searching for God’s perfect law

Eric

 

[wilberhum]

Eric,

Can you tell me one of those "Perfect laws"? One that secular laws don't cover.

Can't answer it? So what is the value of your so called "god's laws"?
Men have it covered. We can set the speed limit to.

 

[Keltoi]

Eric,

Can't answer it? So what is the value of your so called "god's laws"?
Men have it covered. We can set the speed limit to.

Then the question becomes how many secular laws have their roots in religious law?

 

[wilberhum]

Then the question becomes how many secular laws have their roots in religious law?

Or how many religious laws have there root in secular needs? :?

 

[Keltoi]

Or how many religious laws have there root in secular needs? :?

Secular needs? Perhaps human need. I think labeling them "secular" tends to suggest that these laws were somehow separate from religious influence, which was not the case. I agree on this though, laws are used to create a stable society, and in that vein these laws have more to do with human needs than God's needs. This fully secular outlook on law and punishment is a fairly new phenomena, as most societies based their laws on religious law. Not saying I want a theocracy or anything, just pointing out the obvious connection between most historical laws and religious influence.

 

[wilberhum]

Keltoi,
We probably have an unsurpassable obstacle. I believe that all religions are man made.

Therefore religious laws were created for an endless number of reasons.

But I don’t believe that any of them are from god.

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

When was the idea of "secularism" introduced may I ask? I'm pretty sure it didnt exist a very long time ago or that word even.

 

[MuhammadRizan]

salam.

Can you tell me one of those "Perfect laws"? One that secular laws don't cover.

your question is flawed!..the Laws we're talking here are already in existent thousands years before any secularist could even form any kind of government and write their own constitution or Laws.

But i'm going to answer it anyway ...but i'm talking about Islamic Laws.

Islamic Laws are commanded by Allah through Noble Quran and His last prophet's Hadith., and the main principles are Solution and Prevention.

i want to give 1 example here.

As we know Islam completely Forbid intoxicant Drink.

[002:219] They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: "In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit." They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say: "What is beyond your needs." Thus doth God Make clear to you His Signs: In order that ye may consider.

Volume 7, Book 69, Number 492a:

Narrated 'Aisha:

Allah's Apostle was asked about Al-Bit a liquor prepared from honey which the Yemenites used to drink. Allah's Apostle said, "All drinks that intoxicate are unlawful (to drink)."

So the punishment is..

Volume 8, Book 81, Number 767:

Narrated Anas:

The Prophet lashed a drunk with dateleaf stalks and shoes. And Abu Bakr gave a drunk forty lashes.

it's because, (btw..Christians pay attention)

Volume 8, Book 81, Number 793:

Narrated Ubada bin As-Samit:

I gave the pledge of allegiance to the Prophet with a group of people, and he said, "I take your pledge that you will not worship anything besides Allah, will not steal, will not commit infanticide, will not slander others by forging false statements and spreading it, and will not disobey me in anything good. And whoever among you fulfill all these (obligations of the pledge), his reward is with Allah. And whoever commits any of the above crimes and receives his legal punishment in this world, that will be his expiation and purification. But if Allah screens his sin, it will be up to Allah, Who will either punish or forgive him according to His wish." Abu Abdullah said: "If a thief repents after his hand has been cut off, the his witness well be accepted. Similarly, if any person upon whom any legal punishment has been inflicted, repents, his witness will be accepted."

as i said in earlier post Muslim do not stone people etc etc etc for nothing.
as we know all the prosecutions are done in public, so people will see the consecuences and think at least twice for doing any unlawful acts.

i hope some secularist will return me a favour .

is there any secular Laws offer any practical solution that can prevent.

1-Drunken driver existent.
2-alcoholicsm.
3-Drunk husband beating wife.
4-Liver failure.

and because Islamic Laws also covered so many field..i want to add
is there any secular Laws offer any practical solution that can prevent..

1-Abortion.
2-Single defenceless unmarried mother .
3-Mistress existent.
4-Divorce.

and back to the topic..

Christian still not giving the answer to my questions.:-[

 

[wilberhum]

your question is flawed!..the Laws we're talking here are already in existent thousands years before any secularist could even form any kind of government and write their own constitution or Laws.

Yes, I forgot about all those laws that Apollo brought us. :skeleton: :?

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you wilberhum,

A law of God must be a law that would apply here on Earth and also through eternal life after death.

Thou shall not kill is a law that applies to us here on Earth because we are mortal.

But how would the law of not killing apply to us if we become immortal in a greater life after death?

What laws would make any sense to immortals?

In the spirit of searching for God’s perfect law.

Eric

 

[wilberhum]

Greetings and peace be with you wilberhum,

A law of God must be a law that would apply here on Earth and also through eternal life after death.

Thou shall not kill is a law that applies to us here on Earth because we are mortal.

But how would the law of not killing apply to us if we become immortal in a greater life after death?

What laws would make any sense to immortals?

In the spirit of searching for God’s perfect law.

Eric

God’s laws this, god’s laws that. :?
You intemperate what you think are gods laws.

If an Omni pant god gave us laws I think we would know what they are?
So why isn’t there consensus on what god’s laws are? :rollseyes

The advantage of “taking god’s side” is you can say any thing you want and every one understands that you can’t be proven wrong.
I can even say god enjoys our problems because he in mean spirited and you can’t prove me wrong.

You can say, “My Holy Book says this” but most people don’t think “Your Holy Book” is right. There is no commonly expectable way to determine what “god’s laws” is.

When you get into a legal system, you can not make general statements that can be interpreted a thousand different ways by a thousand different people. Some group must interpret the laws in an exact manner. The second that is done, they are no longer god’s law.

So I guess you need god to come down and run the courts, create a theocracy, of just depend on man’s laws. I like the latter. :thumbs_up

 

[Skavau]

When was the idea of "secularism" introduced may I ask? I'm pretty sure it didnt exist a very long time ago or that word even.

The Enlightenment I would imagine strongly assisted the rise of Secularism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Enlightenment

The actual term was coined by an English writer in the 19th century.

 

[MuhammadRizan]

Salam.

Yes, I forgot about all those laws that Apollo brought us

Just great, i'm humiliating myself right? so actually Apollo is the first secularist that form and ruled a secular government separated from any kind of religion.+o(

You can say, “My Holy Book says this” but most people don’t think “Your Holy Book” is right. There is no commonly expectable way to determine what “god’s laws” is.

so this is the basic of your argument right? well, you should spend some of your time saving mankind from this false so called holy scripture.

Assumption is not enough, it's not even fair, you said we're not supposed to be right just because we believe in Holy Book, maybe you're right and we need someone to enlighten us.

But we could apply it to you, you're not supposed to be right just because you don't believe in Holy Scripture.

I dont know About Bible, But if you ask any Muslim about what is the proof Noble Quran is Word of God, we will say The Noble Quran itself is miracle.

if u wan't to debunk us once and for all, make sure u learn Arabic then Quran also give you the way to do it,
that 'make 1 sura like quran' challenge still on even after 1400 years.

or you can make special website to debunk(by Fact) one by one all Harun Yahya supposed Miracle of Noble Quran in his website.

or just do somethin',

mg:

 

[MuhammadRizan]

Salam.

I'm suggesting, if anybody had problem believing God's Law to start a new thread and we can work from there.

i start this thread to ask some clarification why are muslim being critisized by christian just because we practised the Laws of god, at the same time the same or even stricker Laws could be found in their scripture too.

We've been off topic for days now just to prove our proof to people that actually have so much problem with religion.

i hope u guys dont mind.mg:

 

[wilberhum]

But if you ask any Muslim about what is the proof Noble Quran is Word of God, we will say The Noble Quran itself is miracle.

Some people believe that Moby-Dick is proof that whales are evil.
Some people believe that an alien space ship is going to come and take us away. (But I think they killed themselves)
Belief and proof are two different things.
If you don't understand the difference, that is not my problem.
What you believe is proof, about 80% of the world believes is false.
So until Islam rules the world, you loose.

 

[Eric H]

Gretings and peace be with you wilberhum;

Belief and proof are two different things.

God can still exist fully and totally even if you do not have proof.

In the spirit of searching for God

Eric

 

[Eric H]

Gretings and peace be with you wilberhum;

Belief and proof are two different things.

God can still exist fully and totally even if you do not have proof.

In the spirit of searching for God

Eric

 

[MuhammadRizan]

salam,

Some people believe that Moby-Dick is proof that whales are evil.

i assure you it's not me.

Some people believe that an alien space ship is going to come and take us away. (But I think they killed themselves)

it's not me either.

Belief and proof are two different things.

Belief needs Proof..Noble Quran is all you need.

If you don't understand the difference, that is not my problem.

i completely aware the difference..thanks anyway.

What you believe is proof, about 80% of the world believes is false.

because 80% of the world still can't disprove my believe....duh!

So until Islam rules the world, you loose.

eat right, workout regularly and make completely sure you're not going to die so soon, i will PM you when we rule the world..deal?

 

[wilberhum]

Deal!

 

[MuhammadRizan]

salam.

Deal!

that's the spirit...i'm sorry if i offended you...i hate making enemy.