The "Paraclete"

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See, I'm pretty set on the idea that Muhammad is the Paraclete. I don't think anyone has really "PROVEN" it either way.

What from the text of the Bible proves for you that he is not?
this will mainly be a re-post of what i and others have already said:

the paraclete is said to abide with christians forever. not only that but the world cannot see him nor hear him but he will live inside christians forever: "And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever - the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you." John 14:16-17

notice that the disciples whom christ was talking to would experience the advent of the paraclete: "But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me. And you also will bear witness, because you have been with me from the beginning. John 15:27

furthermore, the comforter is to glorify christ seeing as his teaching will come from christ: "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you." John 16:7-14

considering all of the above, it is rather wrong to claim that christians supposed that the paraclete could be a human individual for there is no way that a human can abide in another person much less inside every christian. also the paraclete would be invisible, and he was to abide within the disciples of christ

let me first mention that the above is completely unjustified and does nothing to harmonize all the evidence. instead you merely pick one factor from the list and claim that the individual spoken of here has to be the islamic prophet when quite clearly christ gave a series of things which the holy spirit would do. let us not forget that the lord christ expressly identified the comforter as being the holy spirit (john 14:26). this in itself shows your position to be untenable if we are to go by what the text says but let us continue for the sake of argument. jesus says that the holy spirit was to be given to the very disciples he was speaking with and not over 500 years later to the arabs. let us not forget that he would abide within the disciples forever and that these already knew him (john 16:17). i'm sure that muslims do not believe that muhammad indwelled the disciples of christ or that they even knew him. the holy spirit would be sent in the name of christ (john 16:13) and his task would be to bring glory to christ (john 16:14). once again, muslims don't believe that muhammad came in the name of jesus nor that his task was to bring glory to the lord jesus. now, in your post you simply ignore all of the above and choose to latch on to simply a single factor and then claim that it is muhammad who is spoken of here when clearly when the context is viewed without being selective of what is examined, we can be sure that it is the holy spirit who is spoken of here.

so the challenge then becomes how all of the above could be true of muhammad if he is to be considered the paraclete. most muslims have not read the prophecy in the gospel of john and so simply assume that it speaks of muhammad but when one actually looks at the passage, they can clearly see that it couldn't possibly be speaking of the islamic prophet. this is why i said that no muslim who maintains that muhammad is spoken of in the gospel of john will ever try to prove this from all the evidence in the passage.
 
From our view the Paraclete can not be the "Holy Spirit" in the sense of "The Holy spirit" being the third part of the Trinity as the Trinity does not exist and the Qur'an tells us that that to believe in the Trinity is the sin of Shirk.

That means the Paraclete would most likely be Jibril or a Man. Jibril is an Angel and has no free will, also Jibril does not apper to all people and very few humans have had him speak to them. So this seems to rule out Jibril as the Paraclete. In the Qur'an and Ahadith the only one who meets the concept of being the Paraclete is Muhammad(PBUH).

That is the only possible answer to us, as to who the Paraclete is.

Christians will disagree with that, as they do not believe Islam is the true and final religion for all of mankind. But to us we do believe Islam is the full truth and the Qur'an is the final and complete truth of all the revelations in one last message.
 
From our view the Paraclete can not be the "Holy Spirit" in the sense of "The Holy spirit" being the third part of the Trinity as the Trinity does not exist and the Qur'an tells us that that to believe in the Trinity is the sin of Shirk.

That means the Paraclete would most likely be Jibril or a Man. Jibril is an Angel and has no free will, also Jibril does not apper to all people and very few humans have had him speak to them. So this seems to rule out Jibril as the Paraclete. In the Qur'an and Ahadith the only one who meets the concept of being the Paraclete is Muhammad(PBUH).

That is the only possible answer to us, as to who the Paraclete is.

Christians will disagree with that, as they do not believe Islam is the true and final religion for all of mankind. But to us we do believe Islam is the full truth and the Qur'an is the final and complete truth of all the revelations in one last message.

Thanks Woodrow. I would argue that Christians don't believe it because the Qur'an has instructed us to look into our texts to see Muhammed. We come back and say, we looked and he isn't there. The Muslim has come back and said, "He is the Paraclete/Comforter spoken by Jesus in the Gospel of John." We come back and say, well...no, because the things Jesus said about the Comforter cannot be applied to Muhammed. The Muslim comes back and reasons, essentially, "Well, the parts that don't fit are corrupted, and the parts that do fit are not corrupted."

Basically, Muslims are asking Christians to first believe the Qur'an, then deconstruct the NT so that all that is left of it is what agrees with the Qur'an. Tell me, if I made that suggestion to you would you accept it? (i.e., read the Bible and remove everythign out of the Qur'an that doesn't agree with the Bible). Hardly.

This argument then is at an impasse. Why? Because it boils down at this point to the integrity of the NT. But suffice it to say...if we take the Gospel of John as it is presently, there is no way Muhammed is the paraclete.

I understand the Muslim's rejection of the Trinity. In fact, I reasoned from that understanding when I pointed out that Jesus says, explicitly, that the Holy Spirit is the paraclete. Then I referenced that to the belief among some that the Holy Spirit is Gabriel. Problematic isn't it?

The only recourse the Muslim has at that point is to question and doubt the integrity of the text. Basically, "that's not what Jesus really said. That part is corrupted."
 
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Thanks Woodrow. I would argue that Christians don't believe it because the Qur'an has instructed us to look into our texts to see Muhammed. We come back and say, we looked and he isn't there. The Muslim has come back and said, "He is the Paraclete/Comforter spoken by Jesus in the Gospel of John." We come back and say, well...no, because the things Jesus said about the Comforter cannot be applied to Muhammed. The Muslim comes back and reasons, essentially, "Well, the parts that don't fit are corrupted, and the parts that do fit are not corrupted."

Basically, Muslims are asking Christians to first believe the Qur'an, then deconstruct the NT so that all that is left of it is what agrees with the Qur'an. Tell me, if I made that suggestion to you would you accept it? (i.e., read the Bible and remove everythign out of the Qur'an that doesn't agree with the Bible). Hardly.

This argument then is at an impasse. Why? Because it boils down at this point to the integrity of the NT. But suffice it to say...if we take the Gospel of John as it is presently, there is no way Muhammed is the paraclete.

I understand the Muslim's rejection of the Trinity. In fact, I reasoned from that understanding when I pointed out that Jesus says, explicitly, that the Holy Spirit is the paraclete. Then I referenced that to the belief among some that the Holy Spirit is Gabriel. Problematic isn't it?

The only recourse the Muslim has at that point is to question and doubt the integrity of the text. Basically, "that's not what Jesus really said. That part is corrupted."

The problem is the original scriptures do not exist in their original form. there is no evidence that the Injil(GOSPEL) was preserved in any form. All that is in the NT are the accounts of men and their opinion as to how Jesus(as) followed the Injil. But there is no Injil to be seen. That is the scripture that would hold the whole truth of what Jesus(as) taught.

The OT never was complete. If it had been their never would have been any need for Jesus(as) to have been born.The NT is not a quotation of the Gospel revealed to Jesus(as) nor is it the word of Jesus(as) it is the accounts of men, telling what they believe Jesus(as) taught.

The only parts of the OT and NT we know with certainty to be true are those things that are in agreement with the Qur'an.
 
I think Woodrow has best described the point I was trying to get at. Christians will be in disagreement immediately about the last sentence, but the fact that the New Testament is not a direct revelation is why we mention corruption. Corruption is only the translation of the Arabic word that describes situation of the Bible in Islam. But it has a pretty negative connotation, so Muslims really shouldn't use this word when discussing the Bible with Christians.
The New Testament in the Bibles on our desks is not a perfect copy of God's revelation to Jesus (pbuh). It is a collection of accounts and letters from early Christians. And it is not even a perfect copy of those accounts. It became doctrine and was propounded as the inerrant Word of God. There is no denying its power, because it is the best selling book of all time and translated into every language, etc. But at the end of the day, these translations are copies of copies of rewritten copies.
So when Christians come back at Muslims and say, "well Jesus said this this and this too, so it can't be Muhammad," we have comfort in knowing that the Bible is not really admissible evidence as to exactly what Jesus said.
But the Qur'an is exactly what Muhammad saws said. And based on the accounts of his life and the perfectly documented claims he made, we are inclined to believe that this Qur'an is the exact word of God, unchanged. And this book promises to guide those who believe it and live by it, and those of us who have struggled to understand it have tasted its brilliance and unimaginable power. And in it, God says that we can all go look "AT WHAT THEY HAVE" of the Gospel, and there we will find our prophet written. And so we go to look. And, again, all we have of the Gospel is this New Testament: a compiled document of several letters and the 4 canonical (out of many more equally admissible Gospels According to:...), and it has been copied and translated and adjusted and altered countless times over, throughout 2000 years. Nevertheless, we find in every version a description of Jesus promising to the disciples the coming of someone who will speak not his own words and testify about Jesus and glorify him, and guide mankind and teach them about sin and judgment.
And lo and behold, that is a pretty accurate description of our man, pbuh. Again we have been strengthened in our faith in God to Whom Jesus prayed.
Subhanallahi 3ammaa yusrikoon
 
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be that as it may, once again we return to my point: the muslim cannot base their argument on the full text and as such they must provide some reason as to why they cannot and for why the christian can.

i noticed that you acknowledged that the muslim deity had told the christians at the time of muhammad to look at the gospel which was in their hands. this is actually a point against islam because we certainly have manuscripts dating from before the time of muhammad and after. we certainly know what gospels these christians would have possessed and they are identical to the message you will find in our current bibles.

that said, islamic history is quite clear that the qur'an has not been passed down perfectly:

1. ibn masud rejected the qur'an which zaid ibn thabit compiled and called it a forgery seeing as he maintained that the qur'an should have only 111 chapters instead of the current 114. ( The people have been guilty of deceit in the reading of the Qur’an. I like it better to read according to the recitation of him [i.e. Muhammad] whom I love more than that of Zayd Ibn Thabit.)--- Ibn Sa’d, Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir, Vol. 2, p. 444.

2. ubayy ibn ka’b who was the best reciter believed that zaid's qur'an was missing two chapters and so those who believed in zaid's qur'an were forced to ignore some verses which ubayy used to recite (Umar said, “Ubayy was the best of us in the recitation (of the Qur’an), yet we leave some of what he recites.” Ubayy says, “I have taken it from the mouth of Allah’s Messenger and will not leave it for anything whatever.”) --- Sahih al-Bukhari 5005

3. ibn umar was adamant that teh full qur'an had disappeared (“Let none of you say, ‘I have learned the whole of the Koran,’ for how does he know what the whole of it is, when much of it has disappeared? Let him rather say, ‘I have learned what is extant thereof.’”) --- Abu Ubaid, Kitab Fada’il-al-Qur’an

4. aisha, the wife of muhammad is reported as claiming that about 2/3 of surah 33 is missing (A’isha . . . said, “Surat al-Ahzab used to be recited in the time of the Prophet with two hundred verses, but when Uthman wrote out the codices he was unable to procure more of it than there is in it today) --- Abu Ubaid, Kitab Fada’il-al-Qur’an

5. aisha's goat is reported as having eaten some parts of the qur'an and this is why they are missing from the modern-day qur'an (It was narrated that Aishah said: “The Verse of stoning and of breastfeeding an adult ten times was revealed, and the paper was with me under my pillow. When the Messenger of Allah died, we were preoccupied with his death, and a tame sheep came in and ate it.”) --- Sunan Ibn Majah 1944

First, Surah 33:6 declares that “The Prophet is closer to the Believers than their own selves, and his wives are their mothers.” However, Ubayy ibn Ka’b and other early Muslims held that a phrase (“and he is a father of them”) is missing from this verse. Even the great translator Yusuf Ali admits this in his commentary. Ali writes: “In some Qira’ahs, like that of Ubayy ibn Ka’ab, occur also the words ‘and he is a father of them,’ which imply his spiritual relationship and connection with the words ‘and his wives are their mothers.’” --- Abdullah Yusuf Ali, The Meaning of the Holy Qur’an, Note 3674

now you can go ahead and claim that all the above is inauthentic and that is perfectly fine yet the very fact that there is recorded disagreement on the preservation of the qur'an by muslims themselves proves my argument. in the same way that the muslim will say that we ought only to believe in the "authentic hadiths" so the christian maintains that one ought only to believe in the books which are part of the biblical canon. there is no argument for why we should reject what i have shown above that would not equally apply to the christian position for why we ought to reject all books outside of the canon. so no, islamic history tells me that the qur'an has not been perfectly preserved.
 
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whether it is complete or not, it is the authenticity of the words that matters here. Bless you all I'm spending too much time here now :p
 
whether it is complete or not, it is the authenticity of the words that matters here. Bless you all I'm spending too much time here now :p
you'll note that your point consisted of whether the bible was perfectly preserved or not. anyway, seeing as there is disagreement on whether you even possess the same qur'an as the first muslims you cannot suddenly claim that whatever you have left is 100% accurate. that said, this is far more detrimental to the muslim than to the christian because the christian claim is that the message of the bible has always been present since the advent of christianity and not that there aren't any textual variants. variants included, we do not suddenly get a bible which teaches that christ is not god. the muslim on the other hand must believe that their qur'an is 100% identical to what the first muslims held in their possession and as you can see there is very real disagreement by the first muslims themselves! now once again you can make all the claims you want as to the inauthenticity of the quotes that i have provided but if you make such an argument then you must also believe the christian argument as to the inauthenticity of all the apocryphal books. either way islam would be dealt a decisive blow. it's all a matter of consistency. if you feel that we should ignore the quotes i've brought up and make an argument for this then we should also ignore the apocryphal books because their exclusion can be justified on the same principles that you will use to defend the preservation of the qur'an.

if you feel like ending things now then that's perfectly alright though to be perfectly honest, i surmise that this has more to do with chancing upon information that you had not expected.
 
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1. 14:16 - He would be given to those to whom He was speaking to (and all believers in Jesus) and would be with them forever. This cannot be Mohammed because the Christians for the first 600 years had no knowledge of Mohammed or Islam.

4. 14:26 - The Comforter is identified in this text as the Holy Spirit, not Mohammed. Muslims have contended that the Holy Spirit is Gabriel. If I accept that the Comforter is Mohammed, and accept what this text is saying, then the only conclusion is that Mohammed is Gabriel. Rather, Mohammed is not the Comforter spoken of by the Lord Jesus. In this text, the Holy Spirit comes in the name of Jesus. Mohammed did not come in the name of Jesus. Nor did Mohammed bring to remembrence all things that Jesus said.

These are the verse from the Bible:
"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; (John 14:16)

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. " (John 14:26)

I would like to emphasize on the phrase "another comforter (Paraclete)" why another?? BECAUSE the word "Paraclete" is applied to Jesus (peace be upon him) earlier in John 2:1 !
Now going back to John 14:16, we notice the words "another Paraclete." If the comforter is the Holy Ghost then how many Holy Ghost's are there? The word "another" is significant. In English, "another" means "One more of the same kind" and if this is what was intended then this is positive proof that the coming Paraclete would be just like Jesus (peace be upon him), a human being and a prophet, not a ghost. The actual Greek word used was the word "allon" which is the masculine accusative form of "allos": "Another of the SAME kind." The Greek word for "another of a different kind" is "heteros".

"abide with you forever"---> In order to understand this statement, we should consider analyzing the verses in John 8:51-55

Jesus (peace be upon him) is quoted many times in the Bible as telling his followers that they will never taste death. However, there is not a single one of them alive to this day. Was he lying? Of course not! As seen above, Jesus' (peace be upon him) was not telling mankind that his followers would never grow old nor die, rather he was speaking about their second life in the hereafter. He was telling them that the life that we hold so dear and spend so much time fretting over and striving to improve is all but insignificant if compared to the true life, the afterlife. So much so that life and death on this earth is unworthy of consideration. Everything in his estimation revolved around an eternal striving for the reward of the afterlife and this was the yardstick by which all matters were to be measured.
Therefore we see here that the literal meaning is not meant here, similarly in John 14:16, the phrase "abide with you forever" means that The Paracletos will be the last prophet, and "he will guide you into all truth" and "he shall teach you all things," so there will be no need for any further prophets.

"he shall teach you all things", and "bring all things to your remembrance",
The prophesy of this coming Paraclete requires that he shall remind mankind of the words of Jesus. Jesus is speaking here not to those who disbelieved, but to his own followers. He is telling his followers that the Paraclete shall "remind" them of the message of Jesus. However, if the followers of Jesus already know and remember all that Jesus taught then how shall the Paraclete "remind" them of something which they already remember? Obviously, the coming Paraclete shall come in a time when the teachings of Jesus have been forgotten and require one to "remind" Jesus' followers of them. Indeed, the Qur'an does in fact confirm this same situation. We read:

14. from those, too, who call themselves Christians, we did take a covenant, but They forgot a good part of the Message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the Day of Judgment. and soon will God Show them what it is They have done.
15. O people of the Book! there hath come to you Our Messenger, revealing to you much that ye used to hide In the Book, and passing over much (That is Now unnecessary). there hath come to you from God a (new) light and a perspicuous Book,-
16. wherewith God guideth all who seek His good pleasure to ways of peace and safety, and leadeth them out of darkness, by His will, unto the light,- guideth them to a path that is straight.
(The noble Qur'an, Al-Maidah(5):14-16)

It is further important to note that one of the names of the Qur'an is "Al-Thikr" (The Reminder). For example:
Verily, it is We who have sent down 'The Reminder' and it is We who shall preserve it" (The noble Qur'an, Al-Hijr(15):9)


2. 14:17 - He is the Spirit of Truth. The world cannot receive him because it does not see Him. The world does not know Him, but the disciple knew Him. He was dwelling with them and would be in them. This cannot be Mohammed. The world did see him. Mohammed was not living with the disciples at that time, nor is there any notion that Mohammed would indwell Christians.

6. 16:7 - The Comforter is sent by Jesus. Mohammed never claimed to be sent by Jesus.

"Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. " (John 14:17)
"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. " (John 16:7)

There is an apparent contradiction in these two verses...
Please do explain what you make out from it….

7. 16:8 - The Comforter reproves the world of sin because they do not believe in Jesus, of righteousness because Jesus was raised from the dead, and of judgement because Satan is judged. Mohammed did not reference and center all things around Christ Jesus. THe Comforter does.

"And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment.. " (John 16:8)


Rather the verse could be interpreted as, The coming Paraclete, came to the world to show them how they had been misguided in "sin" by believing that mankind can inherit sin and that someone's sin can be forgiven by the sacrifice of others. He also showed them how they had been misguided in "righteousness" by believing that a righteous person is one who has "faith" in the crucifixion and does nothing else, or who believes that another man's death will make him a righteous person. And they were misguided in "judgment" by believing that they will be judged by "faith" and other people's deeds and not their own deeds, or that God's "judgment" was to punish all mankind for the sin of one man.
Just a thought…..no offense intended!

The prophet Muhammad (pbuh) taught that no one will be held accountable by God for anyone else's sin. He emphasized that God has made this a life of work and the next life one of reward and no work. He also revealed that mankind will be judged individually according to their own individual faith and actions and no one else's.

8. 16:13-14 - The Comforter glorifies Jesus. Mohammed did not glorify Jesus.

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." (John 16:13-14)


Jesus (peace be upon him) had "the whole truth" and had many things he longed to teach his disciples but he could not give it to them because they "cannot bear them now." These matters would only be revealed six centuries later by God through the agency of Muhammad (peace be upon him). What new truths has the Holy Spirit guided us into after the departure of Jesus (peace be upon him) which Jesus (peace be upon him) had no say in?

"For he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak:" This too is an interesting statement. It reminds us of the verses of Deuteronomy 18:18-19, specifically:
" I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require [it] of him." (Deuteronomy 18:18-19)
It is also interesting to read the words of the Qur'an:
"Nor does he (Muhammad) speak of his own desire. It is but an Inspiration that is inspired [unto him]" (The noble Qur'an, Al-Najm(53):3-4)


Hope this comes of use !! Plz give it a thought !!
Peace :)
 
Peacelover, there is a lot to respond there. I will work on a reply today. Thanks for your thoughtfulness and staying on topic.

Before I start my analysis of your reply, I would like clarification on one point. You mentioned that Jesus is called the Parakletos (paraklētos) in John 2:1. John 2:1 states, "And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:" I am pretty sure you meant 1 John 2:1.
 
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Khalil_Allah:
What I do know is that Muhammad's life and his claims are far greater evidence that he is the Paraclete Jesus described than any notion of the "Holy Spirit" being the Paraclete. The Qur'an says "whom they find written in what they have of the Torah and the Gospel." Look in any version of the Bible, John 14-16, and you find this "comforter," "advocate," "helper," or whatever and he 1) speaks words not his own, 2) testifies about Jesus, 3) teaches/guides mankind, 4) stays with mankind forever.

Take these 4 descriptions and go to a Muslim. Do not mention the Bible or Qur'an or anything, and ask the Muslim who you are describing. It is my guess that 9 out of 10 Muslims will immediately believe you are describing Muhammad. Do the same to a Christian, and you will find a varied array of answers. Generally, they settle on the "Holy Spirit." It is a part of the Trinity that lives inside each Christian who testifies to the crucifixion and that Jesus died for our sins. Something along these lines. But where is any proof that the holy spirit speaks words not his own, testifies about Jesus, teaches and guides mankind, and stays with mankind forever? I mean real, rational proof. There is none.


YO:
The underlined and bolded part are what I'm responding to...

Thought:
If we were to look at OT prophesies about the Spirit of God (Spirit of Allah, whatever you want to call it)...THEN what Jesus says about the Holy Spirit being UPON HIM*...and we look at all four things,let's see what we see.

Does the Spirit of God speak words not it's own? YES. It speaks the words and wisdom of God Himself to humanity.

Does the Spirit of God testify about Jesus? YES. It is the Spirit of Wisdom and Prophecy upon Jesus and upon the Prophets who anticipate Jesus...and supposedly that same prophetic "Spirit" upon Muhammad who does this.

Does the Spirit of God teach/guide mankind? Given the above, that goes without saying. YES.

and finally...

Does the Spirit of God stay with mankind forever? If we give any credence at all to the God's promises via the OT Prophets Ezekiel, Isaiah, and Joel (who was quoted by Peter the disciple of Jesus)...then there's indications that this is true as well. so...YES.

Basically, if we looked at the JEWISH (not CHRISTIAN) idea of the Spirit of God and what it does, I think the answer becomes fairly clear. Try it. Go to a Jewish adherent who is very adept in the Torah, Prophets, and Writings...and ask them if the Holy Spirit of God fits all 4 criteria above. Of course, they will deny that Jesus is the Messiah...but they will not deny the relationship between the Spirit of God and the Messiah as such.


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* Luke 4:16
And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up. And as was his custom, he went to the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and he stood up to read. And the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written,

The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives
and recovering of sight to the blind,
to set at liberty those who are oppressed,
to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor.” (From Isaiah 61)


And he rolled up the scroll and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him. And he began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”
 
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Let's remember that the Spirit of God is that through which ALL PROPHETS do what they do. That would INCLUDE Muhammad.

Muhammad wouldn't be any kind of Prophet of God without the Spirit of God. Biblically speaking, to say that a Prophet of God works WITHOUT the Spirit of God granting them the Wisdom, Truth, and Power of God would be absolutely unthinkable. ESPECIALLY in the Old Testament. Just a cursory reading of the OT Prophets would show this to be true.
 
Jewish Encyclopedia's entry on the Holy Spirit.

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Biblical View of the Spirit.
The most noticeable difference between sentient beings and dead things, between the living and the dead, is in the breath. Whatever lives breathes; whatever is dead does not breathe. Aquila, by strangling some camels and then asking Hadrian to set them on their legs again, proved to the emperor that the world is based on "spirit" (Yer. Ḥag. 41, 77a). In most languages breath and spirit are designated by the same term. The life-giving breath can not be of earthly origin, for nothing is found whence it may be taken. It is derived from the supernatural world, from God. God blew the breath of life into Adam (Gen. ii. 7). "The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life" (Job xxxiii. 4; comp. ib. xxvii. 3). God "giveth breath unto the people upon it [the earth], and spirit to them that walk therein" (Isa. xlii. 5). "In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind" (Job xii. 10). Through His spirit all living things are created; and when He withdraws it they perish (ib. xxxiv. 14; Ps. civ. 29, 30). He is therefore the God of the spirits of all flesh (Num. xvi. 22, xxvii. 16). The breath of animals also is derived from Him (Gen. vi. 17; Ps. civ. 30 [A. V. 29]; Eccl. iii. 19-21; Isa. xlii. 5). The heavenly' bodies likewise are living beings, who have received their spirit from God (Job xxvi. 13; Ps. xxxiii. 6). God's spirit hovered over the form of lifeless matter, thereby making the Creation possible; and it still causes the most tremendous changes (Gen. i. 2; Isa. xxxii. 15).

Hence all creatures live only through the spirit given by God. In a more restricted sense, however, the spirit of God is not identical with this life-giving spirit. He pours out His own spirit upon all whom He has chosen to execute His will and behests, and this spirit imbues them with higher reason and powers, making them capable of heroic speech and action (Gen. xli. 38; Ex. xxxi. 3; Num. xxiv. 2; Judges iii. 10; II Sam. xxiii. 2). This special spirit of God rests upon man (Isa. xi. 2, xlii. 1); it surrounds him like a garment (Judges vi. 34; II Chron. xxiv. 20); it falls upon him and holds him like a hand (Ezek. xi. 5, xxxvii. 1). It may also be taken away from the chosen one and transferred to some one else (Num. xi. 17). It may enter into man and speak with his voice (II Sam. xxiii. 2; Ezek. ii. 2; comp. Jer. x. 14). The prophet sees and hears by means of the spirit (Num. xxiv. 2; I Sam. x. 6; II Sam. xxiii. 2; Isa. xlii. 1; Zech. vii. 12). The Messianic passage in Joel ii. 28-29, to which special significance was subsequently attached, is characteristic of the view regarding the nature of the spirit: "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my Spirit."

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Holy Spirit and Prophecy.

The visible results of the activity of the Holy Spirit, according to the Jewish conception, are the books of the Bible, all of which have been composed under its inspiration. All the Prophets spoke "in the Holy Spirit"; and the most characteristic sign of the presence of the Holy Spirit is the gift of prophecy, in the sense that the person upon whom it rests beholds the past and the future. With the death of the last three prophets, Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi, the Holy Spirit ceased to manifest itself in Israel; but the Bat Ḳol was still available. "A bat ḳol announced twice at assemblies of the scribes: 'There is a man who is worthy to have the Holy Spirit rest upon him.' On one of these occasions all eyes turned to Hillel; on the other, to Samuel the Lesser" (Tosef., Soṭah, xiii. 2-4, and parallels). Although the Holy Spirit was not continually present, and did not rest for any length of time upon any individual, yet there were cases in which it appeared and made knowledge of the past and of the future possible (ib.; also with reference to Akiba, Lev. R. xxi. 8; to Gamaliel II., ib. xxxvii. 3, and Tosef., Pes. i. 27; to Meïr, Lev. R. ix. 9; etc.).

The Holy Spirit rested not only on the children of Israel who crossed the Red Sea (Tosef., Soṭah, vi. 2), but, toward the end of the time of the Second Temple, occasionally on ordinary mortals; for "if they are not prophets, they are at least the sons of prophets" (Tosef., Pes. iv. 2). The Holy Spirit is at times identified with the spirit of prophecy (comp. Seder 'Olam, 1, beginning; Targ. Yer. to Gen. xli. 38, xliii. 14; II Kings ix. 26; Isa. xxxii. 15. xl. 13, xliv. 3; Cant. R. i. 2). Sifre 170 (to Deut. xviii. 18) remarks: "'I will put My words into his mouth,' means 'I put them into his mouth, but I do not speak with him face to face'; know, therefore, that henceforth the Holy Spirit is put into the mouths of the Prophets." The "knowledge of God" is the Holy Spirit (Cant. R. i. 9). The division of the country by lot among the several tribes was likewise effected by means of the Holy Spirit (Sifre, Num. 132, p. 49a). On "inspiration" see Jew. Encyc. iii. 147, s.v. Bible Canon, § 9; especially Meg. 7a; and Inspiration. It may simply be noted here that in rabbinical literature single passages are often considered as direct utterances of the Holy Spirit (Sifre, Num. 86; Tosef., Soṭah, ix. 2; Sifre, Deut. 355, p. 148a, six times; Gen. R. lxxviii. 8, lxxxiv. 12; Lev. R. iv. 1 [the expression "and the Holy Spirit cries" occurs five times], xiv. 2, xxvii. 2; Num. R. xv. 21; xvii. 2, end; Deut. R. xi., end).

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This is a JEWISH PERSPECTIVE now...
 
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i know that fivesolas has already said that he'll respond to you peacelover but i'd like to just challenge you on one point. the basic premise of your post is that seeing as christ claimed that his disciples would never see death and yet they died, this then proves that we ought to take his statements (and particularly the passage in the gospel of john concerning the paraclete) figuratively. let me just say that this basic approach is unwarranted seeing as it does not follow that because he spoke figuratively once, everything else he said must be understood figuratively as well. that said, the statement on which you ground your entire point on is wrong and thus your whole argument falls apart. in christianity being separated from god (primarily in hell) is the real death and so when christ said that his disciples would never taste death he meant that they would not be separated from god. the lord christ himself makes this all the more specific in the following passage:

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies" --- John 11:25 NIV

notice that in the above statement christ acknowledges the physical death of the individual but says that all the same the individual will live. therefore christ is not speaking of physical death but rather the real death which is separation from god. having clarified this point, i must once more reiterate that your entire argument falls apart but as to an even more concise response on the matter, i will leave that to fivesolas.
 
Not to go off-topic but I need to ask: are Matthew; Luke; John and Mark disciples of Jesus?
 
Let's put it like this. The whole argument about Muhammad being the "Prophet" like unto Moses that Moses talks about in Deuteronomy (a prophecy about the future) is BASED UPON the God's Holy Spirit of Prophecy working upon Moses when he uttered that.
You take away the Spirit of God from Moses...then you HAVE to deny that whole argument as being truly prophetic, even Judaically speaking!

I don't think that Muslims want to do that...right? Hehe...;D

Moving on...

At any rate, the paraclete passages in John make SENSE in light of what the Jews in Jesus' day actually believed about the Holy Spirit of God and how it worked. Basically, Jesus as Prophet and Chosen of God had the authority to "pass on" the Spirit of Wisdom that worked within him to those whom he so chose...the Spirit that would further reveal God's Truth, Wisdom, and Power to those who followed him.

It makes SENSE once you put it all together. :shade:
 
Let's put it like this. The whole argument about Muhammad being the "Prophet" like unto Moses that Moses talks about in Deuteronomy (a prophecy about the future) is BASED UPON the God's Holy Spirit of Prophecy working upon Moses when he uttered that.
You take away the Spirit of God from Moses...then you HAVE to deny that whole argument as being truly prophetic, even Judaically speaking!

I don't think that Muslims want to do that...right? Hehe...;D

Which would put you in agreement with us that what remains of the scriptures may not be what God(swt) revealed. i have no problem in believing that it is not a good source of proof, unless it is also repeated in the Qur'an in some form. However, the argument for using it is to show that even what Christians profess to be true, is an argument to validate Muhammad(PBUH) as being the Prophecised paraclete.



Moving on...

At any rate, the paraclete passages in John make SENSE in light of what the Jews in Jesus' day actually believed about the Holy Spirit of God and how it worked. Basically, Jesus as Prophet and Chosen of God had the authority to "pass on" the Spirit of Wisdom that worked within him to those whom he so chose...the Spirit that would further reveal God's Truth, Wisdom, and Power to those who followed him.

It makes SENSE once you put it all together. :shade:

Not necessarily as the majority of the Jews did not believe what the Jews in Jesus' day actually believed about the Holy Spirit of God and how it worked. Christianity came about because the gentiles (Non-Jews) accepted the non-Jewish teachings of some of the early Christian founders. Paul gained his following through non-Jews as he predominantly preached to the gentiles.
 
I feel ill equiped to enter this discussion as I'm not a scholar of Theology but I do think I have a rational brain and can understand any underlying logic in a situation being presented to me so I will say what i see. Woodrow says there was no Injil ever recorded in any written form ( at least that is consistant with the fact that anything found will be deemed tainted by corruption unless it agrees with the Quran, I think its called militarily a pre emptive strike ) except for the stories of men and sayings of Christ. But again the issue arises as to why Mohammed would ask his followers to respect the Injil if it no longer existed in his day. Saying that we christians believe that these stories and sayings of Christ were written down in the scriptures by men inspired by the Holy Spirit and incorporated honestly into our present Gospels. There are more than enough ancient scrolls around to show that St Jerome done a good job in putting it together faithfully in much the same way the scholars did with the Quran. Any textual differences have never been shown to have led to any change in the main tenants of Christianity.

Also the Idea of saying that because Muslims don't believe in the Trinity then the only logical being for the Paraclete has to be Muhammed whatever the evidence says to the contrary
makes no logical sense. Thats like saying because a Circle wont fit in the Square hole then a Triangle must. No the triangle wont fit so you must find a square peg. I say fine dont believe in the Trinity but if the evidence doesn't lead to Mohammed then you must accept that also and find another explaination that doesn't include Trinity or Mohammed.

Love and Respect ( especially for the level of theological study clearly evidence by many in this thread on both sides of debate )
 
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