The Qur’an And Violence

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Same stuff I always hear, christians say they have suffered at the hands of others, jews say they have suffered, muslims say they have suffered. blah. blah. blah. The point is, no group is innocent. All races and religions have killed and oppressed. Any person to deny that is a waste of time to talk to.
Many(I admit not all), muslims today have a tendancy towards violence. If muslims feel insulted, some (not all) will hold violent protest. The list I presented earlier was a lengthy example of individuals commiting violent acts toward others in the name of religion. Not states. So please don't ramble on about how Israel did this, how china did that, or the U.S. is doing this. I agree. And the countries should pay for thier crimes. The list contains examples of individuals killing individuals for different beliefs. The truth is though, the common thread is killing in the name of islam. I don't believe allah would approve of killing for the simple reason of difference of opinion. This evil comes from the seeds of hatred, anger and intolorence of difference of opinion. These seeds grow very quickly. I take Andaraawus' reaction to my statements as an example. Rather than convince me that I am wrong, he chose to cover his ears(figuratively speaking), and ridicule what was said. Not the slightest inclination to rational discussion. His hostility was immediate. And I expected it. He proved my point. It was a test and he failed.
You can say "yes, but you were an antagonist". True, but I've pushed sikhs, christians, and others in the same way, and rarely encounter hostility. Usually they think of what was said and try to disprove it(not always with success). Say the same thing to a small group of muslims, and you are sure to find at least one angry bigot. Now I am not saying all muslims, I am saying some, but more likely than with other religions. Please, I beg of you prove me wrong. But seeing is believing. We all are guilty to some degree of intolerance, but every human should feel the responsibility to at least try to be tolerent of other views, and if you disagree, then explain why. The Quran 3.134 refers to Allah being pleased with those that restrain thier anger and pardon men. If that daily task is not obeyed, than soon that anger seed grows to hate, and then what? I am willing to change my view, but it would take convincing. If you don't care then don't worry about it. But for now, what I see is a religion that has many members killing other individuals in the world today. Please, if you are going to ramble about the U.S., Israel, Britain, France, or any other countries atrocities, save it. That is not what I am saying. I said individuals.
Attack armies, not people. "But they attack our people", individuals are not attacking your people, armies are.
Hey Andaraawus, the definition of bigot is as follows, and if you can control your anger long enough to absorb the words, you might notice that this actually discribes you.
Bigot; a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions
 
Same stuff I always hear, christians say they have suffered at the hands of others, jews say they have suffered, muslims say they have suffered. blah. blah. blah. The point is, no group is innocent. All races and religions have killed and oppressed.Any person to deny that is a waste of time to talk to.

agreed

Many(I admit not all), muslims today have a tendancy towards violence.

i think it would be best to say the whole human race has this tendacy, you cant just single out muslims, Christians are very violent too and i can show you documentattion , pictures and evidence to prove so but the question is does that prove that Christians are terrorists? does it prove that the Bible promotes terror?

If we are to judge a people by doctrine we must therefore refer to the primary texts and in this case it is the Quran, inwhich i have spent many hours going from back to front listing down all the verses which refer to Jihad and warfare and the moral principles that go with them.

So the documentation is there, feel free to go through it, but when you present a point make sure it has not been already answered by the document, now i admit the document needs improving as there are many things i may have missed out , but suerly a dialouge will go a long way in improving my document ....thats of course if you base your points about Islam not being a relgion of peace but a relgion of terror , proving my document to be wrong.

If muslims feel insulted, some (not all) will hold violent protest.

I am glad you are not generlising, its a praiseworthy step towards truth.

The list I presented earlier was a lengthy example of individuals commiting violent acts toward others in the name of religion.

You see youre improving my document already ... i forgot to include this:

KILLING IN THE NAME OF ALLAH OR ISLAM

The Quran states there were nine people who cased mischeif in the land, (terrorism) but notice how they do it by God!

There was a gang of nine men in the city causing corruption in the land and not putting things right. They said, “Let us make an oath to one another by God that we will fall on him and his family in the night and then say to his protector, We did not witness the destruction of his family and we are telling the truth.” They hatched a plot and We hatched a plot while they were not aware. (Qur’an, 27:48-50)

we must understand from this that people can do great crimes using the name of God, all because some extremtists seek religous justifications to spread their hatred and do great crimes against humanity it doesnt mean God is guilty nor the book He has revealed.

Islam teaches against extremism

'Do not go to extremes in your relgion' (Quran 4:171)

The Holy Prophet warned the Muslims:

Beware of extremism in your relgion, nations before you were destroyed on account of their extremism in their religion (Sunan An-Nasa'i)


Not states. So please don't ramble on about how Israel did this, how china did that, or the U.S. is doing this. I agree.

im more to the subject, and plus im glad you admit the fact that its not just the Muslims with blood on their hands.

And the countries should pay for thier crimes.

God is just and justice will be done

The list contains examples of individuals killing individuals for different beliefs. The truth is though, the common thread is killing in the name of islam.

yep , i agree , i hate it when people use religion to commit attrocities or even use the ideals of freedom liberation and democracy to commit attrocities , it boils down to people people and the actions of people not doctrine, they will seek to justify their wrong doing with doctrine by using it out of its intended context.

I don't believe allah would approve of killing for the simple reason of difference of opinion.

Well go through the Quran and see. Is there a verse in the Quran which states we have to kill somebody fro difference of opnion ?

This evil comes from the seeds of hatred, anger and intolorence of difference of opinion. These seeds grow very quickly.

KEEPING THE HEART FREE FROM MALICE

Narrated Anas ibn Malik


Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said to me: My
son, if you are in a position to pass your morning and
evening keeping your heart free from malice against
anyone, then act according to it (this high ideal). He
then said: My son, and that is my practice and he who
loves my practice, in fact loves me and he who loves me,
will be with me in Paradise.

Transmitted by Tirmidhi. 59 ALSO CAN BE FOUND IN MISHKAT-UL- MASABEH HADITH 175.

I take Andaraawus' reaction to my statements as an example.

now the guy is just trying to wind me up, by saying i am full of rage and anger, trying to demonise me by painting me the red bull, well ....it only goes to destroy youre credibility further.

Rather than convince me that I am wrong, he chose to cover his ears(figuratively speaking), and ridicule what was said. Not the slightest inclination to rational discussion. His hostility was immediate. And I expected it. He proved my point. It was a test and he failed.

:rant:

You can say "yes, but you were an antagonist". True, but I've pushed sikhs, christians, and others in the same way, and rarely encounter hostility.

you first post in this thread was very hostile . who are you trying to fool, one minute you play wolf and now youre mr sheep and now youre mr wolf again, im not fooled. and from now i will refuse to such emotional ranting, which are in reality red herrings because you can not deal with the evidence i have presented and therefore you have got all emotional and provoked and started attacking my character.

This thread is not about Andaraawus! it is about the Quran and violenec so please play your violin somewhere else!


I beg of you prove me wrong.

you have been but your tooo stubborn to accept it.

The Quran 3.134 refers to Allah being pleased with those that restrain thier anger and pardon men
.

that is the only Quran verse you have quoted in this whole dialouge and that is a very good ayah. but please stop your rampage by going on a hypocrite hunt in attempt to burn me at the steak!

I was never angry and never wanted to hit you, thats just you being demonising by trying to potray me in a certain light , it is called 'character assasination' DEAL WITH THE ISSUES AT HAND NOT ANDARAAWUS.


Attack armies, not people. "But they attack our people", individuals are not attacking your people, armies are.

this proves you have not read my document with full attention...

the Quran says:

TO BE KIND TO THE NON MUSLIMS WHO DON?T FIGHT AGAINST YOU

God does not forbid you from being good to those who have not fought you over religion or driven you from your homes, or from being just towards them. God loves those who are just. God merely forbids you from taking as friends those who have fought you over religion and driven you from your homes and who supported your expulsion... (Qur?an, 60:8-9)

now we have to ask how much documetaion have you refuted and how many times you have attacked me personally?
 
Same stuff I always hear, christians say they have suffered at the hands of others, jews say they have suffered, muslims say they have suffered. blah. blah. blah. The point is, no group is innocent. All races and religions have killed and oppressed. Any person to deny that is a waste of time to talk to.
Exactly. In which case, the point of my post was successfuly conveyed. you attempted to prove that Islam is violent by citing actions of Muslims and I pointed out that such an argument is inherently flawed, which you've agreed with above. For someone to prove that Islam is violent they need to quote its teachings as found in the Qur'an and Sunnah. For my response to some commonly misquoted verses and narrations on the subject of war and violence, please refer to:
http://www.load-islam.com/c/rebuttals/Misquoted

Regards
 
Andaraawus, believe me, I am never interested in the sheep role. As far as the hostile first thread, you missed the point, I have provoked other religious folks the same way, with a much different result. Please point out my emotional ranting, as I don't feel very emotional (but if you say so, sure! why not?!). Violin playing is usually reserved for sympathy seekers, I am not seeking any, I am an observer and commenter on the current world as I see it.
I was never angry and never wanted to hit you
I don't know about the hitting part, but one only need to read the threads to see the obvious emotion in you're words.
now we have to ask how much documetaion have you refuted and how many times you have attacked me personally?
Well, you got me on the refuted document part, but I read past threads, and we are running about even at comments directed at each other.
Anyway, Ansar Al-'Adl you make a good point. I have read the Quran and the Bible and I think you will agree, if parts are interpreted wrong, or taken out of context, both books can be said to be books of peace or books of violence.
And in keeping to the topic of this post(which I am very guilty of straying from), the quran can be said to be against violence in regular life, but for violence if the need arises.
So, if I can be allowed to only slightly stray from the topic, and please do not take this as an attack, why is it that the overwhelming majority of conflict and civil unrest in the world today involves muslims. Keep in mind that I have already admitted that the quran may not be directly responsible. Why do so many resort to violence? And why do the vast majority of peaceful muslims not speak out when these crimes are committed? Even when muslims are killing other muslims? Perhaps many are reading the quran wrong. When most people are offended in the world, at most they shout in protest. time and time again we see (perhaps misguided) muslims rampage and destroy. Is that what it is? There are a large number of misguided muslims getting it all wrong? And why so many? Why so frequently? These are legitamite questions, please provide thoughtful answers.
Bigot; a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions
 
Anyway, Ansar Al-'Adl you make a good point.
Thank you. I'm glad you concur.
I have read the Quran and the Bible and I think you will agree, if parts are interpreted wrong, or taken out of context, both books can be said to be books of peace or books of violence.
If parts are taken out of context to support a violent interpretation it still does not mean that the book is violent.
And in keeping to the topic of this post(which I am very guilty of straying from), the quran can be said to be against violence in regular life, but for violence if the need arises.
You may see this as mere semantics, but I feel it important to point out that if we define violence as the unjust use of force, then the Qur'an is never for violence. The Qur'an advocates the controlled use of force for the establishment of justice upon which peace can thrive.
So, if I can be allowed to only slightly stray from the topic, and please do not take this as an attack, why is it that the overwhelming majority of conflict and civil unrest in the world today involves muslims.
We can examine this question from a number of angles. I believe the factors contributing to this can all be reduced to ignorance, oppression, poverty, and desperation which all reduces down to failure to adhere to the religion.

As mentioned earlier it is important to keep in mind that many atrocities have been and are being committed against Muslims, which no one will deny. Nevertheless, many of them do not recieve very much publicity even amongst the Muslim world (atrocities in China). Many Muslims feel helpless and desperate to do something to alleviate the suffering, yet in their ignorance of true Islamic teachings they fall to misguided actions. In fact, if you read the speeches of those who call for violence, you will find that their reasoning and entire premise is based on repelling the oppressors and defending the persecuted, although their abhorrent actions fail to achieve any of this.

The reason for the plight of the Muslims reduces down to the fact that they are no longer practicing their religion. When they began to leave the commandments of God and abandon the teachings of His Messenger, that was when destruction began.

And why do the vast majority of peaceful muslims not speak out when these crimes are committed?
This is not true, in fact it is the result of the spotlight fallacy. See the comment I made here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/175722-post57.html

To give another example, when the London Bombings occurred, a Muslim organization in North America immediately gathered dozens of Imaams from all over the country and they issued a joint statement condemning the bombing. The only media coverage of this was a single quotation in a local newspaper who sought to 'balance' this feedback by quoting one extremist and one anti-islamist.

Another example - the RIS conference that occurs in Toronto in the winter gathers tens of thousands of Muslims who attend lectures from various Muslim leaders from all over the globe, all voicing strong condemnation of such violent acts. I have seen barely any coverage of such events in the media, yet if we have even 1 person calling for violent attacks they appear on the front page.

Is that what it is? There are a large number of misguided muslims getting it all wrong? And why so many? Why so frequently?
The numbers may seem large and they may seem frequent as a result of the spotlight fallacy.
These are legitamite questions, please provide thoughtful answers.
I hope I have.
 
I am delighted to see your new approach and your identification that Islam is not the problem, whatever personal remarks you have made i will leave them as i feel you have read the documentation and dealt fairly with it . peace
 
Thank you Ansar Al-'Adl. You have given me things to consider. Your patience and thoughtful discussion are appreciated.
You are most welcome Malsidabym. I believe that if we foster mutual understanding of eachother as opposed to pointing fingers, we can remove a lot of the problems in this world.

I have brought this thread up again as many of the issues discussed here are being raised once again on the forum.

Regards
 
uhh no, does that answer your question..

infact prophet Mohamed lived in peace among jews, and helped them, becuase they are people just like us..
 
infact prophet Mohamed lived in peace among jews, and helped them, becuase they are people just like us..

I have to start by objecting to even the title of this thread.

But having said that, which Jews (the convention in English is to use capital letters unless you intend to belittle them) were these that Muhammed live in peace among?
 
Oh no. I am sure I would have loved to read that one!

Can we agree that he tried to live in peace with them but things did not work out and then he did not live in peace with them any more?

Its simple, he had a treaty with them and none of them upheld their treaty for long. The first one took a stand against muslims publically and made fun of them and istigated violance. The second plotted on murdering the Prophet by dropping on his head a stone when he went to sit and talk to their leaders. The third joined the confederates and plotted to annihalate the whole Muslim state in Madinah. Therefore, all of them deserved to be kicked out because they did not live up to the treaty they agreed to. They were the aggressors and they got what they deserved.
 
Can we agree that he tried to live in peace with them but things did not work out and then he did not live in peace with them any more?
Yes, when he first came to Madinah, he took the initiative to make a peace treaty with them, which unfortunately was not honored by some tribes.
 
salam

I want to add to this thread but unfortunatly i am tied up in other things, I just want to say that maybe the brother didnt intend to insult and belittle by not using the capital J for Jews, maybe he is not too grammatic when he writes, even my level of grammar is poor and i get criticised for it alot. But yeh maybe poor grammar or even lazyness writing ...or maybe his caps button dont work ...maybe hes posting from a mobile phone and hes in a rush .... maybe ...he forgot?

wasalams
 
I want to add to this thread but unfortunatly i am tied up in other things, I just want to say that maybe the brother didnt intend to insult and belittle by not using the capital J for Jews, maybe he is not too grammatic when he writes, even my level of grammar is poor and i get criticised for it alot. But yeh maybe poor grammar or even lazyness writing ...or maybe his caps button dont work ...maybe hes posting from a mobile phone and hes in a rush .... maybe ...he forgot?

I am sure there was no reason for it and certainly not a bad one. But we don't need to spread needless offense if we can avoid it.
 
Brother Joe wasnt satisfied with the hadith i gave to prove that Islam doesnt teach to hate Jews, therefore i feel it is a good idea that i represent the evidence and give my thoughts concerning them .

DOES ISLAM TEACH TO HATE THE JEWS ?

O Children of Israel remember my favour upon you (Quran 2:40 & 47)

look how Allah honors the Children of Israel, the tribe of Judah just so happens to be a part of the Children of Israel. plus Allah says clearly in the Quran in respect to the people of the book (The Jews and the Christians):

They are not all alike . Of the People of the Scripture there is a staunch community who recite the revelations of Allah in the night season , falling prostrate ( before Him ) . They believe in Allah and the Last Day , and enjoin right conduct and forbid indecency , and vie one with another in good works . They are of the righteous (Quran 3:113)

Narrated Anas ibn Malik When Safiyyah heard that Hafsah had called her a Jew's daughter she wept. Allah's Messenger صلي اللّه عليه وسلم came in where she was while she was weeping and asked her what was making her weep. When she told him Hafsah had called her a Jew's daughter the Prophet (peace be upon him) said, "You are a prophet's daughter, your paternal uncle was a prophet, and you are married to a prophet, so what has she to boast of over you?" He then said, "Fear Allah, Hafsah." Tirmidhi 1645

This hadith teaches that Islam does not support any 'Anti Semite' behaviour , Jew bashing and so forth, infact Islam holds the Prophets of Israel in the most respectable manner to the point where no Muslim will tolerarte you saying anything bad against them, Muslims get upset when any one of Prophets are insulted. The fact that the Prophets صلي اللّه عليه وسلم wife came from a Jewish background coming from the line of Prophets was a honor for her.

Narrated Abdullah ibn Amr ibn al-'As Mujahid said that Abdullah ibn Amr slaughtered a sheep and said: Have you presented a gift from it to my neighbour, the Jew, for I heard the Apostle of Allah صلي اللّه عليه وسلم say: Gabriel kept on commending the neighbour to me so that I thought he would make an heir? ( Abu Dawud 2446 )


This hadith shows the high standard of morality that the Holy Prophet صلي اللّه عليه وسلم taught to his followers. Abdullah Ibn Amr and his family were prepared to share food with their neighbour despite being a Jew which also goes to show how the diciples of Muhammad understood the rights of the people and that the good treatement of other people are not exclusive to Muslims only. It is not the case that non Muslims are excluded from such kind treatments.

Narrated Abdur Rahman bin Abi Laila Sahl bin Hunaif and Qais bin Sad were sitting in the city of Al-Qadisiya. A funeral procession passed in front of them and they stood up. They were told that funeral procession was of one of the inhabitants of the land i.e. of a non-believer, under the protection of Muslims. They said, "A funeral procession passed in front of the Prophet صلي اللّه عليه وسلم and he stood up. When he was told that it was the coffin of a Jew, he said, "Is it not a living being (soul)?" (Bukahri 2:339)

This hadith expresses the Holy Prophets صلي اللّه عليه وسلم concern with all walks of life and proves that his concern was not just limited to Muslims only.

Narrated Abu Said Al Khudri While Allah's Apostle was sitting, a Jew came and said, "O Abul Qasim! One of your companions has slapped me on my face." The Prophet صلي اللّه عليه وسلم asked who that was. He replied that he was one of the Ansar. The Prophet صلي اللّه عليه وسلم sent for him, and on his arrival, he asked him whether he had beaten the Jew. He (replied in the affirmative and) said, "I heard him taking an oath in the market saying, 'By Him Who gave Moses superiority over all the human beings.' I said, 'O wicked man! (Has Allah given Moses superiority) even over Muhammad ? I became furious and slapped him over his face." The Prophet صلي اللّه عليه وسلم said, "Do not give a prophet superiority over another, for on the Day of Resurrection all the people will fall unconscious and I will be the first to emerge from the earth, and will see Moses standing and holding one of the legs of the Throne. I will not know whether Moses has fallen unconscious or the first unconsciousness was sufficient for him." ( Bukhari 3:595 )

This hadith shows that the Holy Prophet صلي اللّه عليه وسلم even excercised justice and defended the Jew and took his side in the matter against the Muslim.

Ibn Ihsaq states in his seerah of the Prophet صلي اللّه عليه وسلم that the Holy Prophet صلي اللّه عليه وسلم had a Jewish servant who wished to remain a Jew and the Holy Prophet صلي اللّه عليه وسلم did not force her to become Muslim but allowed her freedom of religion.

'The Apostle صلي اللّه عليه وسلم had chosan one of their women for himself, Rayhana d. 'Amr b. Khunafa, one of the women of B.Qurayza and she remained with him until she passed away. The apostle had proposed to marry her and put a veil on her, but she said' no leave me in your power, for that will be easier for me and you.' so he left her alone. she had shown repungance towards Islam when she was captured and clung to Judaism. So the Apolstle صلي اللّه عليه وسلم left her alone but felt unhappy.
(Ibn Ihsaq The life of Muhammd صلي اللّه عليه وسلم (sirat Rasul Allah) Translated by alfred Guillaume page 466 and Edward Rehatsek page 129)


The Holy Prophet صلي اللّه عليه وسلم gave a Jewess her freedom of religion, i wouldnt consider that hating the Jews.

The Prophet of Islam Muhammad صلي اللّه عليه وسلم also taught that we should

'love for humanity what you love for yourself' (Sahih Bukhari )

notice he didnt say love just for Muslims what you love for yourself

'By the One in whose hands is my life! no one is a believer unless he loves for his neighbour what he loves for himself. ' Muslim . (kitaab ul imaan chapter 17)

'Behave good to your neighbour and you will become a believer,
love for people what you love for yourself and you will become Muslim.' (Tirmizi - book of devotion - chapter 2)

'None of you believe until you love for your brother what you love for yourself '


Imam Nawawi who is renown for relating this hadith in his 40 hadith says:

this hadith 'should be interpretated in terms of universal brotherhood even to the extent of encompassing disbelievers and Muslims. One loves for ones disbelieving brother what one loves for himself' his entrance into Islam, just as one loves for ones Muslim brother his continuance in Islam. For this reason supplication for a disbelievers guidance is reccomended. this Hadith proves the incompleteness of the faith of whoever does not love for his brother what he loves for himself' ( Nawawis forty Hadith, Hadith nuber 12)

We should see from this that Muslims are not taught to hate anybody, furthermore Allah tells us in the Quran:

"Let not hatred of a people incite you not to act equitably; act equitably, that is nearer to piety." (Quran 5:8)

Anas repoted that Allah's Messenger صلي اللّه عليه وسلم said to me: My son, if you are in a posistion to pass your morning and evening keeping your heart from malice against anyone, then act according to it, [this high ideal]. he صلي اللّه عليه وسلم then said: My son, and that is my Sunnah and he who loves my Sunnah he infact loves me and he who loves me, he will be with me in Paradise.

[Mishkat-ul Masabih, translated by Abdul Hameed Siddiqui, Vol. 1, Kitab-ul-Qadr, Hadith 175, Kitab Bhavan publications.]


The Prophet صلي اللّه عليه وسلم once said to his Companions, “Do you want to see a man of Paradise?” A man then passed by and the Prophet صلي اللّه عليه وسلم said, “That man is one of the people of Paradise.” So a Companion of the Prophet صلي اللّه عليه وسلم decided to learn what it was about this man that earned him such a commendation from the Messenger of God صلي اللّه عليه وسلم . He spent time with this man and observed him closely. He noticed that he did not perform the Night Prayer Vigil (Tahajjud) or anything extraordinary. He appeared to be an average man of Madinah. The Companion finally told the man what the Prophet صلي اللّه عليه وسلم had said about him and asked if he did anything special. And the man replied, “The only thing that I can think of, other than what everybody else does, is that I make sure that I never sleep with any rancor in my heart towards another.”

When we look at these evidences we see that Islam does not teach hate, now somebody may say 'yeh but what about this verse of the Quran where Allah says:

O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and Christians for friends . They are friends one to another . He among you who taketh them for friends is ( one ) of them . Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk .(5.51)

The Quran must be understood in its context, Allah says:

God does not forbid you from being good to those who have not fought you over religion or driven you from your homes, or from being just towards them. God loves those who are just. God merely forbids you from taking as friends those who have fought you over religion and driven you from your homes and who supported your expulsion... (Quran, 60:8-9)

i think this would be enough to say that Islam doesnt teach hatred towards the Jews, i think it should be a poll question

As for somebody objecting to the title of the thread, i actually chose that title and its a hot title which attracts the attention of the people and it allows us to discuss such issues, my question is why is it when a brother like me trys to explain Islam to non Muslims and skeptics by writing such articles gets Muslims breathing down his neck instead of showing me support and helping me? this is one of the most puzzling questions. :?
 

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