The scientific miracles of the Quran.

[Ramadhan]

And Brothers, let it be known unto you this day that Energy is equal to mass times the speed of light multiplied unto itself, and that energy and mass are interchangeable: one and the same, as are the pull of the Earth and the pull of gathering momentum....

There are absolute limitations in physical laws that humans understand. why would Qur'an say E = MC2 if the formulae itself is not applicable in all circumstances, all the time?
Two centuries ago people thought Newtonian physics is all that govern the universe until Einstein proved their limits with his relativity theories, which still need to be supplemented by quantum dynamics/quantum mechanics laws to work on quantum level. Who knows what else we will find out in two centuries from now?

While Quran says:
And it is We Who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We Who are steadily expanding it. (Qur'an, 51:47)

This statement that the universe is expanding is true from the Big bang until now. So what is unambiguous about this?

 

[Ramadhan]

It has to say this stuff unambiguously.

"seven heavens" just isn't going to cut it, nor "round Earth," when the circumference of the Earth had already been calculated fairly accurately.

If you care to read the posts on the first few pages you would know that in the Qur'an it is said that the earth has "diameters", instead of a "diameter"

 

[Ramadhan]

^ round with multiple diameters = ellipse

 

[Basit]

Salam!

It has to say this stuff unambiguously.

"seven heavens" just isn't going to cut it, nor "round Earth," when the circumference of the Earth had already been calculated fairly accurately.

or have they at that time? have it been checked lately? im not 100% sure but i believe it will not be the same figure as it was before. a lot of issues have been reported, the sea level is rising, the polar reservoir is diminishing, the plates are moving (my country, the philippines, have separate tectonic plate and it is reported that it is subducting the china/japan plate at 40mm/year, in a millenium they will be our neighbors) and last but not the least volcanic eruptions that brings our materials from beneath the earth and remained in the surface after the eruption...............does these not mean expansion????

im not quite sure about this but it leads me to think the earth as well as the universe is expanding as revealed in the Qur'an. I believe it so, basing on some observations i enumerated above, the earth is expanding, slowly, very slowly. hehe, you wouldn't imagine the earth expanding very quickly brother. it would be like living in a rollercoaster if that would be the case. i just wonder if there have been a latest survey and to compare it to what is measured before.



Allahu Al-Basit (Allah, the Expander)
La Ilaha Illa Allah.

 

[Pygoscelis]

This is confirmation bias.

This stuff will re-enforce the beliefs of a muslim. It won't be convincing to anybody else.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

It is part of a bigger picture which should cause people to think. For example, the formation of rain in the Quran and the origin of iron. These signs are there but only to supplement the major miracle of the Quran (preservation, inimitability, rhythm) and the life of the Prophet pbuh (his actions, prophecies, miracles etc).

If you think these are only for Muslims then you might be looking at them from the wrong angle. Try to see them as part of a whole.

 

[aamirsaab]

It has to say this stuff unambiguously.

"seven heavens" just isn't going to cut it, nor "round Earth," when the circumference of the Earth had already been calculated fairly accurately.

If it said the circumference of the earth was Pi, do you really think people 1400 years ago (in arabia, no less) would have understood that?

The Quran is written very clearly so that the majority of people can understand it. It is not a text book of science and math; rather it is a book of guidance.

This is confirmation bias.

This stuff will re-enforce the beliefs of a Muslim. It won't be convincing to anybody else.

Then how do you explain non-Muslims converting to Islam? It has nothing to do with confirmation bias; it is simply a matter of acceptance - don't complicate it by mincing words.

Second of all you as an atheist don't even believe in the existence of God - so any miracle or scientific agreements from the Quran are moot to you. Once you have accepted the existence of God, then we can move on to discussing miracles and such.

 

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


This is clear;

In regard to the Qur'an having miraculous content, then yes there is mention of knowledge which was not known to the people at that time.


An example of this is as mentioned below;

1. The mountains are shaped like pegs:

Have We not made the earth as a wide expanse, And the mountains as pegs? (Quran 78:6-7)


Early tafsir made prior to scientific discoveries commented on this verse [mentioned over 700 years ago - proving - he learnt this fact from Quran]:
Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir


Scientific article that confirms the shape of mountains:
Beneath the mountains

Article explaining how research confirms the function of mountains as insulators for earthquakes:
Effects of Large-Scale Surface Topography on Ground Motions, as Demonstrated by a Study of the San Gabriel Mountains, Los Angeles, California -- Ma et al. 97 (6): 2066 -- Bulletin of the Seismological Society of America


​

"The mountains are shaped like pegs" is not vague, it gives a clear view of their shape, and this has been confirmed by science, and there was no way to discover these things without our current scientific advancement. Especially not over 1,400 years ago.



Another example;

One point which made me further strengthen my belief in the Qur'an was this verse;

"And the heavens* We** constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander." [Quran: 51:47]

(the word vaasi’ in Arabic means vast, moowsi’oon [which comes from the root word vaasi’] is the word used in that verse which signifies that someone is an expander and expanding that certain thing, in the context of the verse – the heavens or space or universe is gradually being expanded by God’s control.]

*heavens = the skies and space above us (in arabic = sama' = heavens), Even linguistically in English and many other languages.

it isn't the Paradise promised for the believers. The gardens promised to the beiievers in the next life is Jannah (which means gardens.)

**We = Royal We, it is used by kings to refer to themselves in a respectful way. Allah - the One & Only God refers to Himself in this respectful Royal 'We' too.



​

Someone over 1400 years ago would probably think the universe is static (i.e. stays in a still state), but the Qur'an proves otherwise [that its expanding], which we've just discovered in the 20th century by Edwin Hubble [who came with the Theory of the Big Bang]. The basis of the Big Bang theory being that the universe is continuously expanding from one focal point.


That's just another sign that Islam has truth to it, and we are able to understand the universe around us using Qur'anic verses, and science - and by relating them together.



These are clear without a doubt.

 

[Trumble]

"The mountains are shaped like pegs" is not vague, it gives a clear view of their shape, and this has been confirmed by science, and there was no way to discover these things without our current scientific advancement.

And hence, the skeptic will never agree!

The peg reference is clearly to function, not shape. That function ('to hold the earth in place, and keep it firm') has nothing to do with natural science. And as to shape;

A mountain.

A selection of period pegs. The similarity is less than staggering.

'Clear without doubt'.. only to those already convinced! To anyone else..... I don't think so.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

The miracle of rain formation is indisputable.

http://quranmiracles.com/articles.asp?id=44

The miracle of iron is indisputable.

http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/562/


As time goes by, more and more signs are identified. I'm sure people argued against the rain miracle in earlier times but in modern times, it's been shown to be true. Soon every one you dispute will become indisputable. These were just two.

'Clear without a doubt'.... I think so!

 

[barrio79]

here's a coupla sites of scientific nature that can excite some minds


http://www.co-intelligence.org/newsletter/comparisons.html


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antares

 

[Trumble]

The miracle of rain formation is indisputable.

http://quranmiracles.com/articles.asp?id=44

Hardly. The passage from 'Light' describes phenomena visible to anyone, and ascribes a supernatural explanation to them. The article then provides a simplified version of the natural explanation and then pretends that it is somehow this process that 24:43 is describing!

The miracle of iron is indisputable.

http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/562/

To be honest I first thought that article was some sort of joke. The only thing 'indisputable' about it is that the author's knowledge of astronomy is zero, or a reasonable approximation of it. I particularly enjoyed

When the amount of iron exceeds a certain level in a star, the star can no longer accommodate it, and it eventually explodes in what is called a "nova" or a "supernova."

.. not least because 'A.O' even provides a reference - to another 'Qur'anic miracles' book!

All but a tiny fraction of the iron present in and on the earth was present when the planet formed and wasn't 'sent down' from anywhere. That did originally form within stars, but then so did pretty much everything else. As Carl Sagan was fond of saying "we are all star-stuff".

 

[AntiKarateKid]

Hardly. The passage from 'Light' describes phenomena visible to anyone, and ascribes a supernatural explanation to them. The article then provides a simplified version of the natural explanation and then pretends that it is somehow this process that 24:43 is describing!

The passage mentions how rain forms in a way that has been proven to be correct. At a time when no one knew about it, why was this mentioned? Do you need everything to be spelled out for you?

To be honest I first thought that article was some sort of joke. The only thing 'indisputable' about it is that the author's knowledge of astronomy is zero, or a reasonable approximation of it. I particularly enjoyed



.. not least because 'A.O' even provides a reference - to another 'Qur'anic miracles' book!

All but a tiny fraction of the iron present in and on the earth was present when the planet formed and wasn't 'sent down' from anywhere. That did originally form within stars, but then so did pretty much everything else. As Carl Sagan was fond of saying "we are all star-stuff".

It is true that iron makes up the core of the earth but the iron humans used is from meteorites containing it. We don't dig into the crust or the core to use.

The Quran's signs are for those who's minds are open. Your characteristic dismissive and condescending responses, along with their lack of any real substance, shows that you are not here to think about them, just to run them through the mental barriers you've made for yourself, lest you wake up.

 

[Trumble]

The passage mentions how rain forms in a way that has been proven to be correct. At a time when no one knew about it, why was this mentioned? Do you need everything to be spelled out for you?

Lets's see.

Do not you see that God drives the clouds, then joins them together, then piles them on each other, then you see the rain comes forth from between them. And He sends down hail from the sky, where there are mountains of it. And strikes those with it whom He will and diverts it from whomever He wills.

Nobody knew that rain came from clouds. Really? You are seeing what simply isn't there. What is there, though, are 'mountains' of hail in the sky. Has anybody ever seen or photographed one?

It is true that iron makes up the core of the earth but the iron humans used is from meteorites containing it. We don't dig into the crust or the core to use.

Rubbish! All industrial iron is refined from mined iron oxides such as haematite, none of which originate from meteorites. The only metal items made from meteorites these days, and indeed from long before the time of Mohammed, are novelties.

.. along with their lack of any real substance...

Oh, dear... it really isn't me who needs to wake up. You know what I think about 'Quran'ic science' in general, but really, there are far more plausible examples than this nonsense. With your last you seem to have reached the state of just making it up as you go along.

 

[barrio79]

Antares is the 15th brightest star in the sky. It is more than 1000 light years away. A very Long Way .A fact that would have been known to the Great Architect since the beginning of time but never thought once to impart this important knowledge to any of the scribes designated to write sacred manuals for devoted followers who were then implored to prepare themselves for time travel, ie a bit past the 1000 light year barrier , to the hereafter.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

Lets's see.

Indeed.

Nobody knew that rain came from clouds. Really? You are seeing what simply isn't there. What is there, though, are 'mountains' of hail in the sky. Has anybody ever seen or photographed one?

Nonsense. No one is debating rain comes from clouds but the actual process in which rain is formed was not known. Second, either you are purposely deceiving yourself or you haven't read the article.

....And He sends down hail from mountains (clouds) in the sky, and He strikes with it whomever He wills, and turns it from whomever He wills. The vivid flash of its lightning nearly blinds the sight. (Quran, 24:43)

The mountains are the clouds. You try and sidestep the sign by arguing against a strawman and criticizing it's accuracy when it is perfectly accurate long before it's time.

You also skipped over the part about the formation of lightening.

 

[Trumble]

I'm pleased you seem to have given up on the iron, anyway.

No one is debating rain comes from clouds but the actual process in which rain is formed was not known. Second, either you are purposely deceiving yourself or you haven't read the article.

Neither. That process is described in the article, not the quote from the Qur'an! Again, that says,

Do not you see that God drives the clouds, then joins them together, then piles them on each other, then you see the rain comes forth from between them. And He sends down hail from the sky, where there are mountains of it. And strikes those with it whom He will and diverts it from whomever He wills. The vivid flash of its lightning nearly blinds the sight.

Where is the bit about stretching "into cooler regions of the atmosphere where drops of water and hail formulate"? Or "when these drops of water and hail become too heavy for the updrafts to support them, they begin to fall from the cloud as rain, hail, etc." Not there.

....And He sends down hail from mountains (clouds) in the sky, and He strikes with it whomever He wills, and turns it from whomever He wills. The vivid flash of its lightning nearly blinds the sight. (Quran, 24:43)

The mountains are the clouds. You try and sidestep the sign by arguing against a strawman and criticizing it's accuracy when it is perfectly accurate long before it's time.

I'm not sidestepping anything, nor introducing a strawman. I am just using the translation in the article you linked to (but don't seem to have actually read) while you have conjured up a more convenient one.

The one I used states that "He sends down hail from the sky, where there are mountains of it", and has no suggestion of anything other than mountains of hail. Yours says "And He sends down hail from mountains (clouds) in the sky". What are the brackets there for?! Does it say mountains or clouds?

I accept, though, translations will not resolve this and perhaps one of our resident Arabic experts can resolve the issue.

You also skipped over the part about the formation of lightening.

What part about the formation of lightning?

 

[AntiKarateKid]

I'm pleased you seem to have given up on the iron, anyway.

Hardly, you copped out by saying arguing that in essence all elements are sent down. It says "sent down" so naturally something had to be made for it to be sent down. "It was the drawing by gravity of the iron atoms to the center of the primeval earth that generated the heat which caused the initial chemical differentiation of the earth, the outgassing of the early atmosphere, and ultimately the formation of the hydrosphere."

Iron was sent down. Iron is the most essential element for life.

Neither. That process is described in the article, not the quote from the Qur'an! Again, that says,



Where is the bit about stretching "into cooler regions of the atmosphere where drops of water and hail formulate"? Or "when these drops of water and hail become too heavy for the updrafts to support them, they begin to fall from the cloud as rain, hail, etc." Not there.



I'm not sidestepping anything, nor introducing a strawman. I am just using the translation in the article you linked to (but don't seem to have actually read) while you have conjured up a more convenient one.

The one I used states that "He sends down hail from the sky, where there are mountains of it", and has no suggestion of anything other than mountains of hail. Yours says "And He sends down hail from mountains (clouds) in the sky". What are the brackets there for?! Does it say mountains or clouds?

I accept, though, translations will not resolve this and perhaps one of our resident Arabic experts can resolve the issue.



What part about the formation of lightning?

Again a copout. The article elaborates at the scientific underpinnings of that verse. The piling of the clouds is a clear sign because no one knew that at the time and it was contrary to the then current beliefs. The article explains the relation between the hail and lightening part (scroll down!) better than I can.

I'm not sure it would do any good. For a person who constantly claimed that the Quran plagiarized Greek Embryology (which in more than one instance was refuted by ppl like Imam) you refuse to see that these passages demonstrated events contrary to the current belief at that time and proved to be scientifically accurate.

I'll end my part in this discussion by simple asking you to open your mind. Otherwise nothing except an angel knocking at your door will convince you.

 

[Trumble]

Hardly, you copped out by saying arguing that in essence all elements are sent down.

Nothing was 'sent down', there being nowhere in particular to send it down from or to. Apart from that, that's essentially correct, although how referring to the actual science rather than the rubbish in that article is supposed to represent a cop-out, I'm not sure!

"It was the drawing by gravity of the iron atoms to the center of the primeval earth that generated the heat which caused the initial chemical differentiation of the earth, the outgassing of the early atmosphere, and ultimately the formation of the hydrosphere."

Iron was sent down. Iron is the most essential element for life.

I can think of others with just as strong a claim (carbon, maybe.. which was also formed in stars, just like the iron) but that's by the by. We have now moved from

“And We also sent down iron in which there lies great force and which has many uses for mankind…”

to some sort of general claim about how important iron is to life in general. And you accuse me of a cop-out! :statisfie Perhaps you can provide a quote from the Qur'an that explains how "drawing by gravity of the iron atoms to the center of the primeval earth..." etc, etc?

Again a copout. The article elaborates at the scientific underpinnings of that verse. The piling of the clouds is a clear sign because no one knew that at the time and it was contrary to the then current beliefs. The article explains the relation between the hail and lightening part (scroll down!) better than I can.

Again, waffle, seemingly. A 'clear sign' of what? The verse describes what people could clearly see just by looking, can you please explain what was 'contrary to the then current beliefs'. I am not interested in what the article says, I am interested in what the Qur'an says! WHERE does it describe the formation of lightning?

I'm not sure it would do any good. For a person who constantly claimed that the Quran plagiarized Greek Embryology (which in more than one instance was refuted by ppl like Imam) you refuse to see that these passages demonstrated events contrary to the current belief at that time and proved to be scientifically accurate.

I 'refuse to see it' because there is not the slightest evidence of it. The second of the two can't even get the science vaguely right.

I'll end my part in this discussion by simple asking you to open your mind.

Probably best that I do likewise!

 

[Detritavore]

If it said the circumference of the earth was Pi, do you really think people 1400 years ago (in arabia, no less) would have understood that?

The Quran is written very clearly so that the majority of people can understand it. It is not a text book of science and math; rather it is a book of guidance.

In the midst of all this jibber jabber, it's a wonder how people managed to miss such a blatantly obvious point!