The Scriptures that are with them...

[- Qatada -]

Hi FiveSolas.


One of the strongest points of concern for me in regard to the Bible is the distortion of the texts when describing the Messengers' of God, who are supposed to be examples of high morals, and good conduct for the rest of mankind.


There are alot of evil things said about other Prophets' in the Bible.

Like claiming that Prophet Lot committed incest with his own daughters [see (Genesis 19:30-32)]. Or that Prophet Solomon worshipped idols. [see 1 Kings 11:4]



I do not believe that God would send Messengers' who would do the worst things on the planet, and act hypocritical in secret (i.e. the bible saying that Prophet Lot forbade homosexuality whilst the Bible claims that he committed incest with his own daughters.)


This just doesn't make sense, and such are the examples where I believe the Bible has been distorted.

 

[SalamChristian]

Prophet Solomon worshipped idols.

doesn't Solomon have to ask for forgiveness in the Qu'ran? What does he ask for forgiveness for? Doesn't Ibrahim also worship idols before asking for forgiveness in the Qu'ran?

 

[Ramadhan]

doesn't Solomon have to ask for forgiveness in the Qu'ran? What does he ask for forgiveness for?

It wasn't prophet Sulayman (pbuh) who asked for forgiveness as he had always been a muslim (submitting to God) since childhood and he had never disbelieved, it was queen Sheba:
So when she came, it was said (to her): "Is your throne like this?" She said: "(It is) as though it were the very same." And [Sulaiman (Solomon) said]: "Knowledge was bestowed on us before her, and we were submitted to Allah (in Islam as Muslims before her)." (QS. 27:42)
And that which she used to worship besides Allah has prevented her (from Islam), for she was of a disbelieving people. (QS. 27:43)
It was said to her: "Enter As-Sarh" [(a glass surface with water underneath it) or a palace], but when she saw it, she thought it was a pool, and she (tucked up her clothes) uncovering her legs, Sulaiman (Solomon) said: "Verily, it is Sarh [(a glass surface with water underneath it) or a palace] paved smooth with slab of glass." She said: "My Lord! Verily, I have wronged myself, and I submit (in Islam, together with Sulaiman (Solomon), to Allah, the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists)." (QS. 27:44)

Doesn't Ibrahim also worship idols before asking for forgiveness in the Qu'ran?

Again, incorrect. Allah SWT has bestowed upon Ibrahim (pbuh) the knowledge and Allah enlightened his heart and mind gave him wisdom from childhood. Allah the Almighty stated:
Indeed We bestowed aforetime on Abraham his (portion of) guidance, and We were Well Acquainted with him( as to his Belief in the Oneness of Allah etc). (Ch 21:51)

Ibrahim (pbuh) actually asked for forgiveness from Allah SWT for his father, who was a staunch idol-worshipper:
He (the father) said: "Do you reject my gods, O Abraham? If you stop not this, I will indeed stone you. So get away from me safely before I punish you." Abraham said: "Peace be on you! I will ask Forgiveness of my Lord for you. Verily! He is unto me, Ever Most Gracious. And I shall turn away from you and from those whom you invoke besides Allah." (Ch 19:43-48)

 

[Hiroshi]

doesn't Solomon have to ask for forgiveness in the Qu'ran? What does he ask for forgiveness for?

According to Al-Tabari concerning Surah 38:34 (Which says “We did try Sulaiman (Solomon) and We placed on his throne Jasad (a devil and he lost his kingdom for a while)”—Hilali and Khan), this verse refers to an incident where a demon took on Solomon’s appearance and replaced Solomon on his throne for a while, during which time the true king himself was treated as an outcast and a mad man. This was punishment upon Solomon for his making a statue in the form of the dead father of one of his wives, which she then idolized.

So in the next verse, Surah 38:35, Solomon is depicted as asking God for forgiveness for his involvement in idolatry.

 

[Hiroshi]

He (the father) said: "Do you reject my gods, O Abraham? If you stop not this, I will indeed stone you. So get away from me safely before I punish you."

This incident supposedly took place during Abraham's youth. It might be mentioned that the man was not called "Abraham" until he was 99 years old! Before that his name was Abram (Genesis 17:1; Genesis 17:5).

Surah 6:76-78 depicts Abraham saying: "This is my Lord" to a star, then to the moon and then to the sun, before turning instead to worship Allah.

 

[SalamChristian]

Cool! Thanks Hiroshi!

Peace brothers

 

[- Qatada -]

According to Al-Tabari concerning Surah 38:34 (Which says “We did try Sulaiman (Solomon) and We placed on his throne Jasad (a devil and he lost his kingdom for a while)”—Hilali and Khan), this verse refers to an incident where a demon took on Solomon’s appearance and replaced Solomon on his throne for a while, during which time the true king himself was treated as an outcast and a mad man. This was punishment upon Solomon for his making a statue in the form of the dead father of one of his wives, which she then idolized.

So in the next verse, Surah 38:35, Solomon is depicted as asking God for forgiveness for his involvement in idolatry.

Now that you've quoted al Tabari, maybe you can prove to me whether that story is authentic or not? Did you know that al-Tabari is a collection of recorded events, some true, and others false? And all he has done is merely collect them for later scholars to decipher their authenticity.

This incident supposedly took place during Abraham's youth. It might be mentioned that the man was not called "Abraham" until he was 99 years old! Before that his name was Abram (Genesis 17:1; Genesis 17:5).

That is a Christian concept. Abraham was always known as Ibraheem in the Qur'an.

Surah 6:76-78 depicts Abraham saying: "This is my Lord" to a star, then to the moon and then to the sun, before turning instead to worship Allah.

[/quote]


Abraham was giving Da'wah [invitation to Monotheism] to the people when he travelled, so when he passed by star/moon/sun/-worshippers, he would say what they say - then show the flaws in their beliefs.

It is like me saying to a Christian; "Oh, a man is my Lord", and then when the man dies, i say - "I do not worship a god who dies".


This enhances my view to others that God can only be a being who is Forever, Living, and never dies.

 

[SalamChristian]

Abraham was giving Da'wah [invitation to Monotheism] to the people when he travelled, so when he passed by star/moon/sun/-worshippers, he would say what they say - then show the flaws in their beliefs.

I'm not buying this interpretation. Look at the entire set of ayahs in order there, and you will see that you are wrong.

74--Abraham tells his father he rejects polytheism.
75--"So also did We show Abraham the kingdom of the heavens and the earth that he might have certainty"
*Here Allah is doing these things for Abraham's certainty in his newfound monotheism.
76-7---Abraham is associating partners with Allah (swt), as already mentioned.
78--Abraham finally recognizes that God is bigger than all of these things, fulfilling that he has certainty as described in ayah 75. "...O my people! I am free from your (guilt) of giving partners to Allah."
*he is free. Not that he is not guilty. He has been delivered from the prison of ignorance.
79--now he shows he is certain
80-82--Now you see da'wah.
83--"That was the reasoning about Us which We gave to Abraham (to use) against his people: We raise whom We will, degree after degree"

Any claim that all of the Prophets are equally sinless has to reconcile this ayah:

"Those messengers! We preferred some often to others; to some of them Allah spoke (directly); others He raised to degrees (of honour)" Al-Baqara, 253

Why would Allah prefer some to others? Why would he raise some to be honored more than others?

Surely because some did sin, even if they were the most devout people of their time.

Peace brother

 

[Woodrow]

Just want to add a little something here. The actual Gospel (Injil)revelaed to Jesus(as) is not found in the NT or the OT. In the NT we have what are essentially Ahadith relating to eyewitness acounts of Jesus(as) Although the level of authenticity is not very well preserved as no writings exist prior to the Koine Greek and the authorship is not very well verified. It is generally understood by even Christian scholars that the Actual author of John is unknown and that the "Book of Revelations" was not written by the same person who wrote the "Gospel of John"

The Book of revelations and the writtings of Paul can not be considered Ahadith as they are the opinions, ideas etc of only one person and not any eyewitness account of anything Jesus(as) said or did. The NT, in my opinion, would be like if I rejected the Quran and followed Islam only by the Ahadith. The NT does not have the Injil in it, only reports of witnesses (Ahadith) about what Jesus said and did, and the "Book of Revelations" and the writings of Paul.

 

[- Qatada -]

I'm not buying this interpretation. Look at the entire set of ayahs in order there, and you will see that you are wrong.

1 - It is a pinnacle of Islamic belief that Prophets do not fall into Major sins [i.e. incest], neither do they ever fall into Polytheism.

2 - If we see Tafsir ibn Katheer, we see the explanation I gave earlier;

We should note here that, in these Ayat, Ibrahim, peace be upon him, was debating with his people, explaining to them the error of their way in worshipping idols and images. In the first case with his father, Ibrahim explained to his people their error in worshipping the idols of earth, which they made in the shape of heavenly angels, so that they intercede on their behalf with the Glorious Creator. His people thought that they are too insignificant to worship Allah directly, and this is why they turned to the worship of angels as intercessors with Allah for their provisions, gaining victory and attaining their various needs. He then explained to them the error and deviation of worshipping the seven planets, which they said were the Moon, Mercury, Venus, the Sun, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn. The brightest of these objects and the most honored to them was the Sun, the Moon then Venus. Ibrahim, may Allah's peace and blessings be on him, first proved that Venus is not worthy of being worshipped, for it is subservient to a term and course appointed that it does not defy, nor swerving right or left. Venus does not have any say in its affairs, for it is only a heavenly object that Allah created and made bright out of His wisdom. Venus rises from the east and sets in the west where it disappears from sight. This rotation is repeated the next night, and so forth. Such an object is not worthy of being a god. Ibrahim then went on to mention the Moon in the same manner in which he mentioned Venus, and then the Sun. When he proved that these three objects were not gods, although they are the brightest objects the eyes can see,

[قَالَ يقَوْمِ إِنِّى بَرِىءٌ مِّمَّا تُشْرِكُونَ]​

(he said: "O my people! I am indeed free from all that you join as partners in worship with Allah.'')


Tafsir ibn Katheer 6:74-83



​

Any claim that all of the Prophets are equally sinless has to reconcile this ayah:

"Those messengers! We preferred some often to others; to some of them Allah spoke (directly); others He raised to degrees (of honour)" Al-Baqara, 253

Why would Allah prefer some to others? Why would he raise some to be honored more than others?

Surely because some did sin, even if they were the most devout people of their time.

These are false interpretations of the Qur'an, which you have sadly misinterpreted yourself.

Rather, Allah has honored certain Messengers' above others. So that some are more respected, and mentioned and followed. So we see that although there are 124,000 Prophets' of God, only some have been mentioned in God's scriptures.


It has got nothing to do with Prophets' of God sinning.

 

[Hiroshi]

Just want to add a little something here. The actual Gospel (Injil)revelaed to Jesus(as) is not found in the NT or the OT. In the NT we have what are essentially Ahadith relating to eyewitness acounts of Jesus(as) Although the level of authenticity is not very well preserved as no writings exist prior to the Koine Greek and the authorship is not very well verified. It is generally understood by even Christian scholars that the Actual author of John is unknown and that the "Book of Revelations" was not written by the same person who wrote the "Gospel of John"

The Book of revelations and the writtings of Paul can not be considered Ahadith as they are the opinions, ideas etc of only one person and not any eyewitness account of anything Jesus(as) said or did. The NT, in my opinion, would be like if I rejected the Quran and followed Islam only by the Ahadith. The NT does not have the Injil in it, only reports of witnesses (Ahadith) about what Jesus said and did, and the "Book of Revelations" and the writings of Paul.

If what you say is true, how them can Surah 7:157 be correct? As Fivesolas showed, it says that the Injil is "with them": with Christians contemporary with the rise of Islam.

" Those who follow the messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) with them. He will enjoin on them that which is right and forbid them that which is wrong. He will make lawful for them all good things and prohibit for them only the foul; and he will relieve them of their burden and the fetters that they used to wear. Then those who believe in him, and honour him, and help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him: they are the successful." Surah 7:157 (Pickthal)

 

[- Qatada -]

hiroshi, i have explained already:

In surah al Maa'idah of the Quran; 5:13 - Allah tells us that the Jews took their scripture out of context, and forgot portions of their scripture due to that.

And I explained that this was due to many factors, which included external pressures i.e. Oppressive governments, and many other factors.

Furthermore, that does not mean that they still don't have parts of original scripture in their books. But it does mean that part of it is also distorted.


So there was descriptions of Prophet Muhammad in the partly distorted scriptures of the Jews and Christians, and there still are signs of his mention - but some of them will reject, while others will believe - just like the people before us did.


NOTE: We do not believe in Prophet Muhammad because of previous scripture descriptions alone, but rather because of the complete and Miraculous Scripture and Guidance he came with.

 

[Hiroshi]

hiroshi, i have explained already:

In surah al Maa'idah of the Quran; 5:13 - Allah tells us that the Jews took their scripture out of context, and forgot portions of their scripture due to that.

This link:

http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp...No=13&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

gives the following commentary on Surah 5:13:-


God says: So because (bi-mā, the mā is extra) of their breaking their covenant, We cursed them, We removed them from Our mercy, and made their hearts hard, unyielding to the acceptance of faith; they pervert words, pertaining to the descriptions of Muhammad (s) in the Torah and other things, from their contexts, those in which God has placed them, in other words, they substitute them; and they have forgotten, they have abandoned, a portion, a part, of what they were reminded of, [of what] they were enjoined to in the Torah, in the way of following Muhammad (s); and you — addressing the Prophet (s) now — will never cease to discover some treachery on their part, in the way of breaking a covenant or some other matter, except for a few of them, who have submitted themselves [to Islam]. Yet pardon them, and forgive; surely God loves the virtuous: this was abrogated by the ‘sword’ verse [Q. 9:5].

So according to this what Surah 5:13 is referring to then is only to Jews living in Muhammad's time changing portions of their scriptures to hide any prophetic reference to Muhammad.

Now even if they had done that, how would it have been possible for them to have altered the thousands of copies of the Hebrew manuscripts elsewhere throughout the world?

Don't you see how impossible it is to make any global change to something so carefully and zealously preserved and widely distributed as the sacred scriptures?

 

[Hiroshi]

Now that you've quoted al Tabari, maybe you can prove to me whether that story is authentic or not? Did you know that al-Tabari is a collection of recorded events, some true, and others false? And all he has done is merely collect them for later scholars to decipher their authenticity.

Here is more support for that story. This link:

http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp...No=34&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

has this commentary:

And We certainly tried Solomon: We tested him by wresting his kingdom from him, because he had married a woman [solely] out of his desire for her. She used to worship idols in his [own] home without his knowledge. Now, [control of] his kingdom lay in his ring. On one occasion, needing to withdraw [to relieve himself], he took it off and left it with this woman of his, whose name was al-Amīna, as was his custom; but a jinn, [disguised] in the form of Solomon, came to her and seized it from her. And We cast upon his throne a [lifeless] body, which was that [very] jinn, and he was [the one known as] Sakhr — or it was some other [jinn]; he sat upon Solomon’s throne and so [as was the case with Solomon] the birds and other [creatures] devoted themselves to him [in service]. When Solomon came out [of his palace], having seen him [the jinn] upon his throne, he said to the people, ‘I am Solomon [not him]!’ But they did not recognise him. Then he repented — Solomon returned to his kingdom, many days later, after he had managed to acquire the ring. He wore it and sat upon his throne [again].

 

[- Qatada -]

Hiroshi, you're not understanding 2 points.


1 - Can you prove to me that the Torah given to Moses, is the Torah we have today? Can you provide a direct chain linking back to the time of Moses to prove that? We should have something to define what the true Torah is, and what is not.

2 - The Tafaseer you are quoting, are merely quoting from the Israee`liyaat [Israelite References] i.e. Biblical references. And are not necessarily true, nor do we have to believe in such statements to be Muslims.

 

[Fivesolas]

Just want to add a little something here. The actual Gospel (Injil)revelaed to Jesus(as) is not found in the NT or the OT. In the NT we have what are essentially Ahadith relating to eyewitness acounts of Jesus(as) Although the level of authenticity is not very well preserved as no writings exist prior to the Koine Greek and the authorship is not very well verified. It is generally understood by even Christian scholars that the Actual author of John is unknown and that the "Book of Revelations" was not written by the same person who wrote the "Gospel of John"

The Book of revelations and the writtings of Paul can not be considered Ahadith as they are the opinions, ideas etc of only one person and not any eyewitness account of anything Jesus(as) said or did. The NT, in my opinion, would be like if I rejected the Quran and followed Islam only by the Ahadith. The NT does not have the Injil in it, only reports of witnesses (Ahadith) about what Jesus said and did, and the "Book of Revelations" and the writings of Paul.

Woodrow,

Without going into detail, my speculation is that you are learning about Christian scholarship from Muslims. I would humbly suggest that you research such scholarship a bit more closely. And recognize that there is conservative and liberal scholarship that is called Christian.

 

[Woodrow]

Woodrow,

Without going into detail, my speculation is that you are learning about Christian scholarship from Muslims. I would humbly suggest that you research such scholarship a bit more closely. And recognize that there is conservative and liberal scholarship that is called Christian.

Uhhh for most of my life I was a Christian and at one point a Missionary in the Mideast doing my best to convert Muslims to Christianity. I will agree that I may no longer know much about Christianity as much of what I was taught as a Christian seems to have changed over the past 40 years or so.

After leaving Catholicism I thought I had found my home among the Pentecostal Churches. I admit that was an error on my part.

Without Islam finding me 5 years ago, I never would have returned to God(swt) and most likely would be finishing my final earthly years as either an agnostic or an atheist.

 

[SalamChristian]

In surah al Maa'idah of the Quran; 5:13 - Allah tells us that the Jews took their scripture out of context, and forgot portions of their scripture due to that. And I explained that this was due to many factors, which included external pressures i.e. Oppressive governments, and many other factors. Furthermore, that does not mean that they still don't have parts of original scripture in their books. But it does mean that part of it is also distorted.

No, it does not. You are making false conclusions. It means that they took it out of context, and misinterpreted it. Nowhere does the Qu'ran say that the written scripture itself is distorted. The Qu'ran instead says to turn to them for proof of the Truth concerning matters it discusses.

Salaam

 

[Hiroshi]

1 - Can you prove to me that the Torah given to Moses, is the Torah we have today? Can you provide a direct chain linking back to the time of Moses to prove that? We should have something to define what the true Torah is, and what is not.

I shouldn't have to do that. The burden of proof should rest with Muslims to demonstrate that there have been huge changes in the text of the Bible. The only real reason to think this is that the Qur'an and the Bible are not in agreement. There is no evidence from archaeology or ancient manuscripts that corruption of the text has occurred on the vast scale required to explain this disagreement.

The Jews were extraordinarily meticulous in their copying of the scriptures, even going to the extreme of counting the letters that were copied. And the writings were placed in the safe keeping of the religious leaders. If these men had sought to alter any of the scriptures then you would expect them to change those parts that exposed their failures and wrongdoings. But they did not. The Bible accounts are so honest and candid that even some Bible writers admitted their own faults. But nothing has been altered or changed.

 

[Hiroshi]

After leaving Catholicism I thought I had found my home among the Pentecostal Churches. I admit that was an error on my part.

I definitely agree with you there.