The Scriptures that are with them...

[Hiroshi]

2 - The Tafaseer you are quoting, are merely quoting from the Israee`liyaat [Israelite References] i.e. Biblical references.

Where does the Tafaseer make reference to specific Bible passages or quote the Bible?

And are not necessarily true, nor do we have to believe in such statements to be Muslims.

I thought that Muslims had to believe that Muhammad was prophecied in the Torah and the Injil.

 

[Woodrow]

I thought that Muslims had to believe that Muhammad was prophecied in the Torah and the Injil.

Why, would that be required? We have no control over what Allaah(swt) has chosen to reveal. If he did not reveal the coming of Muhammad(swt) in the Torah or the Injil we will not find it. If it is prophecised we are obligated to believe it. If we can not find it in the Torah or Injil that can be because we do not have the uncorrupted versions or it was not in them.

However, it seems logical that it would have been revealed in the true Torah and Injil.

 

[- Qatada -]

No, it does not. You are making false conclusions. It means that they took it out of context, and misinterpreted it. Nowhere does the Qu'ran say that the written scripture itself is distorted. The Qu'ran instead says to turn to them for proof of the Truth concerning matters it discusses.

Salaam

. فَبِمَا نَقْضِهِم مِّيثَاقَهُمْ لَعَنَّاهُمْ وَجَعَلْنَا قُلُوبَهُمْ قَاسِيَةً - يُحَرِّفُونَ الْكَلِمَ عَن مَّوَاضِعِهِ ۙ وَنَسُوا حَظًّا مِّمَّا ذُكِّرُوا بِهِ - وَلَا تَزَالُ تَطَّلِعُ عَلَىٰ خَائِنَةٍ مِّنْهُمْ إِلَّا قَلِيلًا مِّنْهُمْ ۖ فَاعْفُ عَنْهُمْ وَاصْفَحْ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يُحِبُّ الْمُحْسِنِينَ

So for their breaking of the covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard. They distort words from their [proper] usages and have forgotten a portion of that of which they were reminded. And you will still observe deceit among them, except a few of them. But pardon them and overlook [their misdeeds]. Indeed, Allah loves the doers of good.

[Quran 5:13]
​

Nasoow means 'to Forget' [plural]. They Forgot a portion of the Revelation.

Where does the Tafaseer make reference to specific Bible passages or quote the Bible?

In the past, they wouldn't write down the page number or the publication of a book. They would merely quote from the Israee'liyaat [Israelite books], but it would be taken only for the sake of Narrative, but not for any Islamic beliefs.

If you want to know the [lack of] importance of Isra'eeliyaat in Tafaseer, just refer to the Sciences of Tafseer [Usool al-Tafseer].

The burden of proof should rest with Muslims to demonstrate that there have been huge changes in the text of the Bible.

Let me just tell you, that lies and insults and evil slanders which can hardly be imaginable about a normal person are attributed to God's Messengers' (i.e. (Genesis 19:30-32)), and that is sufficient for me that the Old/New Testament is not from God.

And furthermore, the fact that we don't even know who they are from is a further concern. I.e. The Gospels are 'According to Luke', 'According to John' etc. yet the authors are anonymous. Why should I accept a piece of work which claims to be inspired from God, when i dont even know the author who writ it?

I thought that Muslims had to believe that Muhammad was prophecied in the Torah and the Injil.

The Injil was what Jesus preached, the Gospels of today are not necessarily the Injil. And as per my first point, I do not know which parts the Jews forgot, and I do not wish to believe that God's Prophets' are evil men, as per the Old Testament.

 

[SalamChristian]

Nasoow means 'to Forget' [plural]. They Forgot a portion of the Revelation.

Forgetting is mental. It is not scriptural. LOST is the word Jibreel (as) would have used here, if he meant that they LOST the scriptures. The words in the Qu'ran are specifically used for a specific reason.

Funny you mention that Qatada. That is exactly what our Injeel says:

"Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: “‘The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;
the Lord has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’[h]?
43 “Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. 44 Anyone who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; anyone on whom it falls will be crushed.”[i]


This is a prohpecy from THE HEBREW SCRIPTURES--ISAIAH--and Jesus says the SAME THING the Qu'ran says--that they have forgotten and misunderstood the truthful scriptures in their hands. THE CORNERSTONE that Jesus describes is the Shema--love your neighbour as yourself. The Jews were oppressing others and pursuing drunkeness and sensuality (Ezekiel), because they were focusing on the 613 commandments of God while forgetting the basics--the Shema--loving your neighbor as yourself.


Shalom

 

[- Qatada -]

Forgetting is mental. It is not scriptural. LOST is the word Jibreel (as) would have used here, if he meant that they LOST the scriptures. The words in the Qu'ran are specifically used for a specific reason.

If I say the following in consecutive order;

1) He distorted the true interpretation.
2) And he forgot what he was reminded of.


What does that imply?

It implies: He distorted the true interpretation, and then he forgot it.

 

[SalamChristian]

1) He distorted the true interpretation. 2) And he forgot what he was reminded of. What does that imply? It implies: He distorted the true interpretation, and then he forgot it.

Forgetting is mental. It is not scriptural. LOST is the word Jibreel (as) would have used here, if he meant that they LOST the scriptures. The words in the Qu'ran are specifically used for a specific reason. Funny you mention that Qatada. That is exactly what our Injeel says: "Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: “‘The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes’[h]? 43 “Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. 44 Anyone who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; anyone on whom it falls will be crushed.” This is a prohpecy from THE HEBREW SCRIPTURES--ISAIAH--and Jesus says the SAME THING the Qu'ran says--that they have forgotten and misunderstood the truthful scriptures in their hands. THE CORNERSTONE that Jesus describes is the Shema--love your neighbour as yourself. The Jews were oppressing others and pursuing drunkeness and sensuality (Ezekiel), because they were focusing on the 613 commandments of God while forgetting the basics--the Shema--loving your neighbor as yourself. Shalom

Asalaam Alaikum Allahu Aqbar brothers,
AbdAllah

 

[- Qatada -]

1) I believe the Torah was distorted because of the evil insults against God's Messengers'.

2) Let's just say for arguments sake that they didn't distort the Torah, you should know that the Jews also had the Tanakh [the Oral Tradition], which is similar to the Ahadeeth in Islam. They would not write this down [most probably because they wanted to differentiate it from the Torah], but would preserve it through passing the statements of the Tanakh to the next generation, orally (through speech.)

They most likely did forget and distort the Tanakh.


What's the importance of the Tanakh?

The importance of the context of guidance is as important as the Book of Law itself.


Ask any person on this forum how important the Qur'an is in relation to the Sunnah, and they will tell you that they are equal. Just as the Tanakh is important to the Jews as the Torah.

 

[Hiroshi]

Let me just tell you, that lies and insults and evil slanders which can hardly be imaginable about a normal person are attributed to God's Messengers' (i.e. (Genesis 19:30-32)), and that is sufficient for me that the Old/New Testament is not from God.

Again and again Muslims refer to the narrative of Lot and his daughters to accuse the Bible of gross and outrageous insults and lies. Genesis 19:31-38 reports that Lot’s daughters got their father so drunk with wine that he did not know what was happening and then had relations with him so that they both became pregnant and each had a son, one called Moab and the other Ammon.

The account is important because it establishes the relationship between the Moabites and the Ammonites to the Israelites. They were close relatives. It was out of regard for Lot that God dealt mercifully with the descendants of his sons, Moab and Ammon (also called Ben-ammi).

According to the Bible Lot was not a prophet of God, although the Qur’an calls him such. Lot was not aware of what his daughters were doing so he was quite innocent. His daughters badly wanted to bear children but not by the wicked inhabitants of the land around them. So what they did may have seemed their only option.

The name Moab means “From father” and the name Ben-ammi means “Son of my people” (i.e. son of my relatives, not of foreigners). The Moabites and the Ammonites were historical tribes and nations. Ruth (the wife of Boaz) who became an ancestress of Jesus (Ruth 4:13-17; Luke 3:32) was a Moabitess (Ruth 4:10). So the very names of these historical tribes testify to the truthfulness of the Bible’s account.

It is sad that, rather than giving the Bible commendation for honesty in reporting even unpleasant details such as this, the tendency is instead to condemn the Bible as if it contains vicious slander.

 

[- Qatada -]

First of all, i don't think its even relevant for a Guidance from God to mention such an event. Since it provides no positive basis except the encouragement of Incest.

Second, whether he is a Prophet or a righteous man according to the Bible, does not give a good example for others does it? - for a righteous man or Prophet to get so drunk, that he doesn't even know that he's having sex with his own daughters?

 

[SalamChristian]

First of all, i don't think its even relevant for a Guidance from God to mention such an event. Since it provides no positive basis except the encouragement of Incest. Second, whether he is a Prophet or a righteous man according to the Bible, does not give a good example for others does it? - for a righteous man or Prophet to get so drunk, that he doesn't even know that he's having sex with his own daughters?

In the Old Testament, God is the example to follow, every time. Even the language of the Torah describes how the Jews are supposed to do to others as God has done for them.

In the New Testament, Jesus is the shining example of how men can fully achieve what God has been urging us to do from the beginning. The "light upon the hill" as he describes it. He is the first to achieve this for all to see--the Messiah.

Shalom

 

[- Qatada -]

In the Old Testament, God is the example to follow, every time. Even the language of the Torah describes how the Jews are supposed to do to others as God has done for them.

And you know that God is extremely angry with the Jews and punishes them alot in the Old Testament, you know that right? And we know how much even the companions of Moses rebelled against Moses, and even God. So you can imagine what future generations did...

In the New Testament, Jesus is the shining example of how men can fully achieve what God has been urging us to do from the beginning. The "light upon the hill" as he describes it. He is the first to achieve this for all to see--the Messiah.

Shalom

Yes, I believe a Messenger of God is the best example for mankind. That includes Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon them.)

 

[SalamChristian]

And you know that God is extremely angry with the Jews and punishes them alot in the Old Testament, you know that right?

Sometimes. Other times he is pleased with their actions.

So you can imagine what future generations did...

Don't need to imagine it. It is described in thorough detail in our scriptures.

Salaam

 

[Hiroshi]

First of all, i don't think its even relevant for a Guidance from God to mention such an event. Since it provides no positive basis except the encouragement of Incest.

As I explained, it was important to show that the Ammonites and Moabites were descended from Lot. Abraham married his half-sister, the daughter of his father (Genesis 20:12). I suppose Muslims deny that also. And the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve must have married their own brothers and sisters, right?

All such things took place relatively early in mankind's history. Mankind was physically closer to perfection then. It wasn't until more centuries down the line that close relatives were forbidden to marry under the Law of Moses. By that time it would cause harmful birth defects in the inbred children.

 

[Hiroshi]

Second, whether he is a Prophet or a righteous man according to the Bible, does not give a good example for others does it? - for a righteous man or Prophet to get so drunk, that he doesn't even know that he's having sex with his own daughters?

Lot was not habitually drunk. The Bible calls him a righteous man (2 Peter 2:7-8). Likely he was not used to strong wine. Those who are not used to alcohol can drink too much before they are aware of it. And this can often happen when they are encouraged to do so by trusted companions or, as in Lot’s case, family members.