The Soldiers in Iraq and their deeds

[mizan_aliashraf]

Re: The PIGS in Iraq and their deeds

In my defence I have to say it was not me that brought up the issue of rape. And it was more or less related - we were, if I remember correctly - discussing the alleged rape of Iraqi women in Abu Ghraib.

Rape is a serious crime. But you cannot hold up, on the one hand, the near impossibility of finding four adult male witnesses to such a crime, and other the other, the record of Muslim countries in prosecuting rape charges, and argue that Islamic systems of justice have a good track record in this area. As I said Muslim countries are very poor at prosecuting rape. Which is probably one of the reasons that most Muslim women have, traditionally, been more restricted than Islamic law demands.

I understand what you are saying, but just because 'Muslim' countries have a poor record for prosecuting rapists, doesnt mean that Islam has a weak or inferior stance on the whole thing. You cant hold Islam responsible for the acts of a particular country. Rape has, unfortunately, become very widesprea. In the UK, you hear about someone who's been raped every other day.

 

[HeiGou]

Re: The PIGS in Iraq and their deeds

I understand what you are saying, but just because 'Muslim' countries have a poor record for prosecuting rapists, doesnt mean that Islam has a weak or inferior stance on the whole thing. You cant hold Islam responsible for the acts of a particular country. Rape has, unfortunately, become very widesprea. In the UK, you hear about someone who's been raped every other day.

I am trying not to say anything about Islam at all but about Muslims. I do not want to argue that Islam is weak. At most I would argue that it shows that my values and your God's values are very different. I do have some criticism for some Muslims who argue that DNA evidence is inadmissible and demand four adult male eye witnesses no matter what the DNA says.

I agree that Islam is not to blame for whatever any particular country does. There is a difference between religion and custom. But the two are also related - religion shapes customs, customs shape the way people see religion. If Islamic law demands four adult male eye witnesses, and Muslim culture puts a lot of pressure of women to be "good" and regards women who are raped as shamed, well, then certain consequences are going to flow. There is no point denying that. It is not a flaw in Islam as even I would accept that God knows best.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Re: The PIGS in Iraq and their deeds

So to prove rape you need a confession or four adult male witnesses as I said.

No, that is completely incorrect. To apply the Hadd punishment, you would need four witnesses, but rape can be proven with DNA evidence, with circumstantial evidence, anything that normally incriminates a rapist.

Failing that a judge may impose a discretionary punishment.

No, if there is sufficient evidence of any sort to incriminate the rapist, it is the obligation of the Islamic courts to punish them severely.

But then he may just impose that on the victim as well if he thinks her behaviour is not acceptable.

Maybe you were not able to comprehend this part:

A woman will not be punished if there is any reason to believe that she was forced into the act. The least evidence in this regard will be sufficient to save the woman from punishment. Our Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “Allah has pardoned my people for the acts they do by mistake, due to forgetfulness, and what they are coerced into doing” [Related by Ibn Mâjah and authenticated by al-Nawawî, Ibn Hajr, and al-Albânî].

Also, it was related by Ibn Abî Shaybah through Târiq b. Shahâb that a woman accused of adultery was taken to Caliph `Umar. The woman pleaded that she was asleep and woke up to find the man over her. `Umar released the woman. [The narration was approved by al-Albâni]. Ibn Qudâmah stated in his book al-Mughnî: “There is no punishment on the woman who was coerced into adultery.” (SOURCE)​

The woman cannot be punished. period.

Your claim that rapists go unpunished in the absence of four witnesses according to Islamic law has been refuted.

and Muslim culture puts a lot of pressure of women to be "good"

Islam puts pressure opn everyone to be good.

and regards women who are raped as shamed

What do you mean by 'shamed'? Islam regards women who are raped as having a lofty status in the sight of God for persevering despite the abuse they have been through. If you mean 'shame' in a general sense, then who in the world does not consider rape a shameful act?

 

[Guli7]

Re: The PIGS in Iraq and their deeds

rape occurs in all cultures, in all countries.

Europe is worse than America when it comes to sex and media. They show everything on tv and my little cousins who live there know and have seen everything. Here in America there is at least parental control and you have to pay to see that stuff on tv.

I'm not saying America is perfect, goodness knows it isn't especially with George Bush in charge but a lot of other countries are worse when it comes to those kinds of negative things America is known for. Lets not play the blame game.

I hope those soldiers all get their dues but also the authorities of those prisons should get punished as well for allowing these things to occur.

 

[Guli7]

Re: The PIGS in Iraq and their deeds

^^I didn't mean anything bad towards European countries.

My cousin says that their tv stations in Switzerland for example don't censor nudity or cursing while our basic cable stations do. You have to pay for extra channels to see that stuff.

 

[j4763]

Re: The PIGS in Iraq and their deeds

I'm sure those channels don’t show that kind of stuff before the watershed! Should your cousin be up that late? Shouldn’t your cousin’s guardians/parents not be censoring what they watch? Plus do they not have a choice to turn over/off that channel?

 

[HeiGou]

Re: The PIGS in Iraq and their deeds

No, that is completely incorrect. To apply the Hadd punishment, you would need four witnesses, but rape can be proven with DNA evidence, with circumstantial evidence, anything that normally incriminates a rapist.

I will accept that as a reasonable response. The problem with this, though, is that where religion stops culture takes over. The "circumstantial evidence", if it is not laid down in the Quran or the Sunna, will be based on a cultural norm. As I think we would all agree many cultural norms in the Middle East are not friendly to rape victims.

Maybe you were not able to comprehend this part:

A woman will not be punished if there is any reason to believe that she was forced into the act. The least evidence in this regard will be sufficient to save the woman from punishment.​

Any reason? The least evidence? Suppose it came down to his words verses hers? Does this count as any reason or the least evidence? In the right circumstances an adult male's opinion is worth two women's. Is this one of those circumstances?

Your claim that rapists go unpunished in the absence of four witnesses according to Islamic law has been refuted.

I do not think that was my claim and no it has not. You have shown me that they may receive a lesser punishment if the judge deems there is sufficient evidence to warrant it.

What do you mean by 'shamed'? Islam regards women who are raped as having a lofty status in the sight of God for persevering despite the abuse they have been through. If you mean 'shame' in a general sense, then who in the world does not consider rape a shameful act?

Shamed in a strictly cultural and non-religious sense.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Re: The PIGS in Iraq and their deeds

I will accept that as a reasonable response. The problem with this, though, is that where religion stops culture takes over. The "circumstantial evidence", if it is not laid down in the Quran or the Sunna, will be based on a cultural norm. As I think we would all agree many cultural norms in the Middle East are not friendly to rape victims.

I don't think this is a cultural problem; rape would have been difficult to prove anywhere in the world before our advancements in technology. I think the difficulties in proving rape in that era were more likely a global problem.

Any reason? The least evidence? Suppose it came down to his words verses hers? Does this count as any reason or the least evidence? In the right circumstances an adult male's opinion is worth two women's. Is this one of those circumstances?

No, if there is enough evidence to suggest that the act was performed, and she claims he raped her and he claims it is consensual, then they aren't going to punish the woman simply because he says it was consensual. If it was, then both of them would likely have kept it a secret.

You have shown me that they may receive a lesser punishment if the judge deems there is sufficient evidence to warrant it.

In the fatwa I linked it says, Likewise, the ruler may decide to give a stricter punishment than the prescribed punishment.. So it is not necessarily a 'lesser' punishment.

Shamed in a strictly cultural and non-religious sense.

What do you mean by 'shamed'? Which culture does not consider it a shame? Please be specific.

Thanks.

 

[HeiGou]

Re: The PIGS in Iraq and their deeds

I will accept that as a reasonable response. The problem with this, though, is that where religion stops culture takes over. The "circumstantial evidence", if it is not laid down in the Quran or the Sunna, will be based on a cultural norm. As I think we would all agree many cultural norms in the Middle East are not friendly to rape victims.

I don't think this is a cultural problem; rape would have been difficult to prove anywhere in the world before our advancements in technology. I think the difficulties in proving rape in that era were more likely a global problem.

But where religion is silent, culture takes over. What constitutes proof? In some cultures you would make both parties drink poison and see who died. In others you would let 12 jury men decide based on the credibility of the stories. Islam, it seems to me, allows a single man, and always a man, to decide. And he will decide based either on his culture or on analogy with other Quranic precepts. Perhaps that whole "one man or two women" thing?

No, if there is enough evidence to suggest that the act was performed, and she claims he raped her and he claims it is consensual, then they aren't going to punish the woman simply because he says it was consensual. If it was, then both of them would likely have kept it a secret.

But how do we know what the judge would do? Where is the criteria laid down for us to examine? Suppose they were interrupted in whatever they did and the woman cries rape? Suppose that the man said that there was consent but that he jilted her or insulted her and so she was seeking revenge? Rape is a complex issue.

In the fatwa I linked it says, Likewise, the ruler may decide to give a stricter punishment than the prescribed punishment.. So it is not necessarily a 'lesser' punishment.

My error. This makes me worried for Islamic law in so many ways but that is another thread.

What do you mean by 'shamed'? Which culture does not consider it a shame? Please be specific.

In the world there are interpretations of cultural norms that deem a raped women to be shamed and to have brought shame on her family. This tends to lead to bad things. What is the procedure for punishing someone guilty of an honor killing in Islam? Suppose that a Father sends his son to kill his daughter, for whatever reason connected with shame. Who pays the diya to whom?

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Re: The PIGS in Iraq and their deeds

But where religion is silent, culture takes over. What constitutes proof?

I'm not talking about the trial by ordeals etc. I'm speaking about actual proof. The only thing people could do back then, is pretty much listen to testimonies and then decide. And up until only a few decades ago, there were still innocent people being sentenced for crimes including rape, until DNA evidence showed them to be not guilty. So this was a problem that was not restricted to only some cultures, rather it was a global issue.

In others you would let 12 jury men decide based on the credibility of the stories. Islam, it seems to me, allows a single man, and always a man, to decide

There are two points here - first, about there being one individual deciding the case, then this is not completely correct. While an Islamic country does have one presiding judge, he also has an advisory council which helps him sort through the material presented in the case. The Judge ultimately has the final verdict, much like the inquisitorial system, which you have indicated your prefer.

As for the issue of whether it is a man or woman, then there is a difference of opinion. Most scholars hold the opinion that the presiding judge should be male, because their role includes active investigation which entails interacting with other male members in the community, as well as asserting themselves in the courtroom. Nevertheless, some scholars have differed. According to the Jariri Madh-hab, a judge who passes a verdict in a court case is no different from a jurist who gives a religious ruling. Since it is agreed that a woman can perform the latter function, At-Tabari felt that there is no reason why she can't be a judge. The scholars of the Dhahiri Madh-hab also held this view. The Hanafi Madh-hab takes a middle position, deeming it permissable for a woman to act as a judge in all cases other than those requring a hadd (prescribed) punishment.

And he will decide based either on his culture or on analogy with other Quranic precepts.

No. A case can only be decided on the evidence presented.

Suppose they were interrupted in whatever they did and the woman cries rape? Suppose that the man said that there was consent but that he jilted her or insulted her and so she was seeking revenge? Rape is a complex issue.

Yes it is, and that is why it was very difficult to establish in any society before the modern era. As for what the judge would do, the criteria are laid down clearly in the examples from the early Muslims. The example of the woman who came to Umar and said she was raped, for example. She was acquitted.

My error. This makes me worried for Islamic law in so many ways but that is another thread.

This is only if the crime exceeds that for the prescribed punishment.

I'll provide you with an answer to your last question soon, inshaa'Allah.