The St. Petersburg Declaration by "Secular Muslims"

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north_malaysian said:
Imagine if we Muslims endorsed a Declaration that:

* Pope must be elected by all Catholics people, not by a small group of churchmen.

* Greek government must stop recognizing Greek Orthodox Church's Canon Laws, both within the church and in such areas of civil law as marriage.
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This would not be comparable. These people are apostates. In the case of Hirsi Ali, she has to live under permanent protection of body guards. Her life is threatened exactly because she is an outspoken apostate, because she was a Muslim. There are Muslims out there that think Islam allows them to kill her for her apostasy. That makes Islam very relevant to her.

In essence the rules of Islam make Islam relevant for her. This idea that being born a Muslim means that you are always a Muslim and under the jurisdiction of other Muslims, in an Islamic state at least. Thats why she is outspoken against an Islamic state and Islam, because it essentially calls on her to be executed.

Islam has an opinion on her, then why can she not have an opinion on Islam?
 
KAding said:
It is to real Muslims obviously.
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Well not all of it is rubbish, some points agree with sharia law, but the way it is projected is incorrect. For example: honor killing, forced veiling, and forced marriage are against the sharia law. Another thing, I'd include forced unveiling in the list too.
 
I disagree with the liberalism..
all I've gotta say at this point:
Rasulullah :arabic5: said:
"Bani Israeel split up into 72 sects and my Ummah will split into 73 sects. All, excepting one, will be in the fire." The Sahabah asked: 'Which is that (one sect) O Rasulullah?' Rasulullah :arabic5: said: "That group which is on my path and that of my Sahaabah."
(Tirmizi)
"Those who will live after me will witness great dispute. Therefore, my Sunnah and the Sunnah of the Khulafa Rashideen (Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthmaan and ali) are incumbent upon you. Hold onto it firmly with yout jaws (i.e adhere to the Sunnah with determination) and beware of innovation, for verily, everya act of innovation is bid'ah. Every Bid'ah is deviation."
(Tirmizi)
 
Talha777 said:
I am sorry, but how is forced veiling against Shariah?
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2:256 There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way. Whoever therefore rejects the forces of evil and believes in God, he has taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way, for God is All Hearing and Knowing.
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2:256 There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way. Whoever therefore rejects the forces of evil and believes in God, he has taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way, for God is All Hearing and Knowing.
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Brother, I believe that this verse is perhaps the most abused one in terms of being quoted without proper understanding of its relevance, context, and essential meaning.

Therefore, I direct you to the tafseer of this ayat:

(There is no compulsion in religion), meaning, "Do not force anyone to become Muslim, for Islam is plain and clear, and its proofs and evidence are plain and clear. Therefore, there is no need to force anyone to embrace Islam. Rather, whoever Allah directs to Islam, opens his heart for it and enlightens his mind, will embrace Islam with certainty. Whoever Allah blinds his heart and seals his hearing and sight, then he will not benefit from being forced to embrace Islam.'' (Tafsir of ibn Kathir)
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La ikraha fi deen simply means you cannot force someone to accept Islam. But elsewhere, we can clearly see in the Holy Quran that Allah Taala has given us plain and clear religious commandments, and He has also commanded us in many cases to compel others against breaking those commandments (i.e. stealing, murder, fornication)
 
Talha777 said:
Brother, I believe that this verse is perhaps the most abused one in terms of being quoted without proper understanding of its relevance, context, and essential meaning.

Therefore, I direct you to the tafseer of this ayat:



La ikraha fi deen simply means you cannot force someone to accept Islam. But elsewhere, we can clearly see in the Holy Quran that Allah Taala has given us plain and clear religious commandments, and He has also commanded us in many cases to compel others against breaking those commandments (i.e. stealing, murder, fornication)
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Prohibitions against stealing, murder, and fornication are forced on non-muslims too, but sharia doesn't force non-muslims to wear veil. So what we have here, sharia not gonna force veil on non-muslims but it gonna force on muslims that don't believe it is compulsory? You can consider them a different sect and show them if it is necessary, but state forcing them to wear veil doesn't feel right.

You have any example from the time of prophet (pbuh) and 4 rightly guided caliphs where muslims or non-muslims were punished for not wearing veil?
 
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KAding said:
No offense taken.

Using you logic I could say the following:
The people who signed this declaration are unbelievers, I am an unbeliever as well. I voiced an opinion on their statement. I am thus 'shaping the beliefs of unbelievers', not Islam :D. In fact, I think it makes no sense for you to voice an opinion on a declaration of secular muslims, people you clearly have no affiliation with :p. As such your opinions have no bearing on my opinions and those of my fellow disbelievers :blind: ;).

But seriously, I have my own opinions and I just voiced them, that does not mean I am 'shaping Islam'. I never claimed I was shaping Islam either. Besides, I am sure you have many opinions as well on groups you are not part of?

If Sharia law would ever in any form be implemented where I live (which I consider unlikely), I would not be able to voice these very opinions, since it would be blasphemous and I would be considered a threat to the Umma and would be dealt with accordingly. That makes it relevant enough for me to voice my secular opinion on Islam.
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How can the very people who are trying to reform Islam not involve the Muslim community? Strange? This took place in St Petrsburg was the Muslim Organisations and Communities informed? No they werent. Yes I have no affiliation towards them, but when they come and say to the world "this is how Islam should be today" I have a problem with that. I also have a problem with people who come and say "ummmm yes i agree with that". Not your place to agree or disagree. The fact that they say "secular Muslims" and call themselves "muslims" I have a problem with, becuase they have lost the fundemental beliefs so this according to my understanding takes them out of the fold of Islam (but Allah knows best). Its just you see these people are going to funded and this message will be pushed and backed by certain guvernments and its really insulting when people think they can teach me my Deen when they are not evan part of it! Have a nice day.
 
Lets get this straghit Ayaan Ali Hersi knows absouletly nothing, she's the devil.:raging: :raging: These people arent muslims they are the Wests Dogs. They have been brainwashed. There is no such thing as secular muslim. Its either you follow the deen that Allah has percribed or you don't. Don't Call them muslims, they know sweet FA about our reliegoun. I'm sorry for being an extremist because I follow the sunnah of the prophet. Im sorry i said Israeli annexation of lands was wrong. because if i do im an extremist.

Number one Sharia is our Law so leave our laws the blood alone. Saudi is the only country the enforced like 90% sharia. I hate this world, All of a sudden people want to rip me of my religoun by putting locks on what I can belive or do. Forced veiling is the command of Allah, those animals no absoulty notin. This world is useless to me, All of a sudden is wrong to wear a cloth on your head, :raging:

Then you people complain about not having freedom. IF someone wants to wear a veil and you dont let her what freedom is that? If a country decides to use their own laws persribed by the Lord and the International community pressures them to apply "western" laws what freedom is that? The World complains about a veil and they do nothing about Chechnya or Palestine. Great International community. Muslims are hated everywhere, they are worth nothing these days, The blood of a muslim is worth nothing. They die everywhere and the world barely does anything, They attack our rules and religoun and lifestyle. This is disgraceful
 
Indeed this is a discrace and an insult. Thats why we need to expose these people and prey that the Muslims around the world remain steadfast in the deen inshallah.
 
sudais1 said:
Forced veiling is the command of Allah, those animals no absoulty notin. This world is useless to me, All of a sudden is wrong to wear a cloth on your head, :raging:
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Forced veiling or veiling? Big difference there. If someone wants to wear a veil, I think we should let her (or him) given that it doesn't cause a security risk. Forcing somebody to wear a veil is another matter entirely.

Complete sidenote. I notice that you are from Calgary, Alberta. I have not been out that way for over a decade now, but last time I was there it was like a smaller version of the US bible belt - with a lot of aggressive christians. Is it still? And if so, how is your experience there being a muslim?
 
Pygoscelis said:
Forced veiling or veiling? Big difference there. If someone wants to wear a veil, I think we should let her (or him) given that it doesn't cause a security risk. Forcing somebody to wear a veil is another matter entirely.

Most women who where the Veil also choose to wear it because they are religous, Christians and Jews also used to practice this, its nothing new





Complete sidenote. I notice that you are from Calgary, Alberta. I have not been out that way for over a decade now, but last time I was there it was like a smaller version of the US bible belt - with a lot of aggressive christians. Is it still? And if so, how is your experience there being a muslim?
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Well Calgary is a bit different now. The Muslim community is about 65,000 and it's really normal, There are soo many churches but other than that its become one of the fastest growing cities in the world. There have been alot of Debates here and there but there arent and Aggresive christians, those whom I have seen, and just the general public. Its not really that Christian anymore the streets are filled with crazy youth partying 24/7
 
Pygoscelis said:
Forced veiling or veiling? Big difference there. If someone wants to wear a veil, I think we should let her (or him) given that it doesn't cause a security risk. Forcing somebody to wear a veil is another matter entirely.

Most women who where the Veil also choose to wear it because they are religous, Christians and Jews also used to practice this, its nothing new





Complete sidenote. I notice that you are from Calgary, Alberta. I have not been out that way for over a decade now, but last time I was there it was like a smaller version of the US bible belt - with a lot of aggressive christians. Is it still? And if so, how is your experience there being a muslim?
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oh...oops the other part...

Most Women choose to wear the Veil, Christians and Jews used to aswell, its nothing new. It's for the protection of the women, its better for them to wear it. If they deny it they deny what God had perscribed. Those women who dont wear it have begun to fall in love with the western ways and left their religoin.
 
^^I dont agree with your last part, maybe partially. My mom doesn't wear one but she prays more than I do MashaAllah. InshaAllah she will and I have a feeling she does think about it. There are a lot of people who are good Muslims but haven't decided the Hijab yet and others who, deep down, are considering it.
 
I could be wrong, but as far as I know, Hijab is obligatory and face veil is optional. And if someone chooses to wear it, its their right. If a woman feels safe, protected or liberated in it, then more power to her! Like I said, I could be wrong Astaghfirullah.

Peace
 

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