The trouble with prophets

[Qingu]

My initial point was even to his enemies he was known as honest and truthful.

...except for the Jews who thought he was a fraud?

An honest and truthful fraud?

That poet was trying to cause a war with his ''innocent poetry''. Plenty of people slandered and abused the Prophet but all the time he took it and did nothing back (he was stoned on a regular bases, one time by his own uncle! Heck, he was even poisoned AND let the woman who did it go away scot free!). The only time he took action was when people were trying to cause (or causing) a war. It had nothing to do with his ''feelings'' being hurt.

It's interesting to compare your response to Qatada's:

What's the point of a religion if its Prophet is insulted? Why is someone punishable in the US for simply burning a cloth of the american flag?

I take it you disagree with Qatada on the reasoning behind Muhammad's order for assassination? (By the way, Qatada, flag-burning is not a punishable offense in the U.S., and if you think I support laws like that you don't know me very well)

In either case he was protecting/leading his followers who were being persecuted for saying ''there is no God but god''

This would have been a problem had he abused this power. But he never did. Hence the lack of a palace and surplus of ragged clothes.

1) To show who and who wasn't elligible for his followers to to marry (he was the last prophet sent by God, you know!)
2) bring waring tribes together/cohesion

I'm worried we're getting too far afield from the original topic (probably my fault). The original topic was how can you tell a false prophet from a real prophet.

You all think Joseph Smith is a false prophet. But do you deny that his followers could use the same exact reasoning and excuses to defend him that you are using to defend Muhammad in your post?

Why do you believe Muhammad's biographers and followers, but not Joseph Smith's biographers and followers? How much have you guys even studied Mormonism?

That assumes the Quran was written by Muhammad, which he couldn't have due to him being illiterate. If you want to discuss this issue properly though, create a new thread and I'll tango.

Interesting ... though I feel like this would be a pretty straightforward thread

So you are saying that Muhammad's personality and way of treating people is not at all reflective of the language of the Quran? And you know this from his (doubtlessly impartial and objective) biographers? Shall we compare what Joseph Smith's biographers say about his temperment?

Which is why one of the requirements for islamic law is a caliphate. Sharia + Caliphate = awesome. Sharia law without caliphate = Saudi arabia. Communism doesn't have a safeguard like Islamic law does. In any case, Sharia law did actually work (for a time anyway) - I don't think you can say the same for any other law system.

How many civil wars were fought during the Caliphates? More than one, yes? Then I'd say America's government has a better track record, to name just one law system.

 

[- Qatada -]

I don't believe I said the universe has a beginning.

Can you quote where I said that? I may have just been using sloppy language (which is hard to avoid when we're talking about time).

I don't want to go into the definition of words, what we can both agree to is the fact that you're not aware of how the universe originated.

But their reasoning isn't logical. It's an old argument, it's been around since Aristotle, and it's been disproven since the Enlightenment.

You say that the universe needs a creator because nothing could possibly exist forever just on its own.

I ask, "well, who created the creator?"

You say, "Nobody! The creator has always existed on his own!"

That's a contradiction—the whole reason you think the universe needs a creator is because you don't think it could have always existed on its own! You're positing the existence of a creator to explain a problem, but the creator ends up having the same problem. So you either have to admit the creator needs a creator himself (causing an endless chain) or that the idea of something self-existent and eternal (like the atheist's universe) is not actually a problem in and of itself.

I said I believe in God and believe that He is Perfect, therefore to believe in His Perfection - I believe He doesn't have a beginning. Since something having a beginning implies that it was dependent upon another, something which i believe God was not.

Surely everyone knew Joseph Smith was a prophet as well. They rejected him out of arrogance because he wasn't Protestant or Catholic.

Prove this, i've proved my points using the example I gave earlier of Saffiya's uncles rejecting Prophet Muhammad after comparing him to there scripture. Now you prove to me that Joseph Smith was rejected with similar reasons from his lifestory.

Ditto Joseph Smith. Again, I think you're missing the point—all the defenses of Muhammad's prophethood can apply to Joseph Smith's prophethood.

You're missing the point, you said that joseph smith was after fame, simply explain what Muhammad (peace be upon him) was after? Was it wealth [which he already had], fame and status? [which he already had by being from Quraysh], women? [which the Quraysh offered to him if he gave up his faith, the most beautiful of them but he rejected], what else was he after?

Yet he went through so much torture for no apparent reason? Please do inform me why he claimed Prophethood.

I don't understand your reluctance to admit that Muhammad had a lot more power as a prophet/military leader than he would have had as a merchant.

Read and answer what i said above please. If you're so sure about the falseness of his claim to Prophethood.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

But where has God come from? Where did Got start? What MADE God start?

Your answer is no different than my answer to your question. I don't see how the addition of an unnecessary "God step" to the process illuminates anything.


No. You're not paying attention to what I'm saying.

Really. Go back and read my posts again. It's not an infinite regression at all.

Nothing made God. God made everything. The universe did not make itself. Reality cannot create itself. God is the source. As for your questions, createdness is against his attribute so asking what created God is pointless.
On the otherhand, the universe and reality are tangible since we are part of it.

 

[Tornado]

Qingu, you won't win this. This infinity thing is too hard for us little humans :blind:

 

[AntiKarateKid]

Qingu, you won't win this. This infinity thing is too hard for us little humans :blind:

Naw, the illiterate arabs in the gutters and the downtrodden slaves could understand the divine. So can you!

 

[Tornado]

Naw, the illiterate arabs in the gutters and the downtrodden slaves could understand the divine. So can you!

Sorry, if there was a satisfying answer, this would never be discussed. I file this infinity thing as something humans just can't understand (at least we don't right now, and i don't *think we'll ever).
What happened before the beginning; but you can't go back forverever, so there must be a beginning, but what happened before it, but..

 

[AntiKarateKid]

To you your way. To us ours.

 

[Tornado]

To you your way. To us ours.

Sure. I hope you aren't being a little biased given that you believe in a god. I don't really care if there's a god, but I never rule out a god could be an answer for infinite regression.
Is this going off-topic?

 

[AntiKarateKid]

Sure. I hope you aren't being a little biased given that you believe in a god. I don't really care if there's a god, but I never rule out a god could be an answer for infinite regression.
Is this going off-topic?

Theism is reality. Though you think you may not care about God, He certainly cares about you. You are just stumbling the test. Cliche? Yes, but nonetheless true.

And yes we are digressing.

 

[K.Venugopal]

If Allah created everything, the question who created Allah is valid. If nobody created Allah and Allah always existed, then could not the so-called creation also have always existed? That which ever exists - existence - is life. The so-called creation is nothing other than life taking on different forms. We always exist, only our forms change. We are that which we call Allah.

The biggest mistake in the Quran is the claim that Allah created life. It should have said Allah is life. This is what the Vedas proclaim.

 

[جوري]

Everything in creation dies.. that nullifies the notion of always having existed -- death denotes mortality -- life ceases to exist when death happens and death inevitably comes for all.. even stars die as we speak....

Time amongst others is an attribute of God as he has so defined for us-- Time is an indefinite period which is defined by us through specific attributes or activities that we use to give measure against it, however on its own accord is a continuum that goes on.. long after Hindus or atheists are cremated and scattered upon the earth!

Kitaab At-Tawheed, Chapter: 43

Whoever Curses Time Wrongs Allah

Allah (swt ), says:

" And they say: "There is nothing but our life in this world: We die and we live and nothing destroys us except time." And they have no knowledge of it, they only conjecture" (Qur'an 45:24)

Allah (swt ), Most Glorified, Most High, informs us in this verse about the disbelieving dahris1 from among the Arabs and others, who do not believe in any life, save the life of this world, nor in the Rabb and Creator, Allah (swt ), Most High. They believe that nothing causes death except the passage of time. Then Allah (swt ), Most Glorified, Most High, refutes their claims, saying that they have absolutely no evidence for what they claim, but instead, depend upon surmise and their own vain opinions.

Benefits Derived From This Verse

1. That attributing good or evil to the passage of time is a sign of atheism.

2. Confirmation of a life after death for mankind.

3. That ad-dahr (time) is not one of Allah's Names.

Relevance of This Verse to the Subject of the Chapter

That the verse rejects those who attribute events to time, for they commit a great wrong against Allah (swt ).

Relevance of This Verse to the Subject of Tawheed

That it rejects those who attribute events to time, because in so doing, they are ascribing a partner to Allah (swt ), for it is He, Alone Who decrees what will be and what will not be.

..ooOOoo..

It is authentically reported on the authority of Abu Hurairah (ra ) that the Prophet (saas ) said: "Allah (swt ), Most Blessed, Most High, says: "The son of Adam wrongs Me: He curses time, though I am time: In My Hands are all things and I cause the night to follow the day." 2 In another narration, He (saas ) says: "Do not curse time, for verily, time is Allah (swt )."

Allah (swt ), Most Glorified, Most High informs us in this Hadith Qudsi, that man commits a great wrong against Allah (swt ) when he curses time and attributes the occurrence of events to it, for Allah (swt ) is the Rabb of time and the Disposer of affairs and it is by His Qadr that events take place. Therefore to curse time is to curse the Owner of time.

In the second narration, the Prophet (saas ) forbids us from cursing time, saying that Allah (swt ) is the Owner of time and the Disposer of it and all events and affairs, and this is confirmation of what was reported in the preceding Hadith Qudsi.

Benefits Derived From This Hadith

1. The forbiddance of cursing time.

2. That no actions may be attributed to time.

Relevance of This Hadith to the Subject of the Chapter

That it proves that to curse time is to commit a great wrong against Allah (swt ).

Relevance of This Hadith to the Subject of Tawheed

That the Hadith proves that cursing time is a great wrong against Allah (swt ), because those who do so believe that it is time which causes events to take place and this is shirk in Tawheed Ar-Ruboobiyyah, for it is Allah (swt ), Alone Who determines events.

 

[جوري]

and no Allah isn't life.. life is defined by the actions and events that occur in the living and cease as they themselves decease.. Life ends with Death.. both life and death are a possession of God he gives and takes to whom he wills!

"Allah! There is no god but He - the Living, The Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him Nor Sleep. His are all things In the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede In His presence except As he permitteth? He knoweth What (appeareth to His creatures As) Before or After or Behind them. Nor shall they compass Aught of his knowledge Except as He willeth. His throne doth extend Over the heavens And on earth, and He feeleth No fatigue in guarding And preserving them, For He is the Most High, The Supreme (in glory)." [Surah al-Baqarah 2: 255]

 

[K.Venugopal]

Everything in creation dies.. that nullifies the notion of always having existed -- death denotes mortality -- life ceases to exist when death happens and death inevitably comes for all.. even stars die as we speak....

Nothing dies, only changes of form occurs. Now which modern scientist said, Matter can neither be created nor destroyed...

The Wikipedia tells me:
There is a scientific law called the Law of Conservation of Mass, discovered by Antoine Lavoisier in 1785. In its most compact form, it states:
matter is neither created nor destroyed.
In 1842, Julius Robert Mayer discovered the Law of Conservation of Energy. In its most compact form, it it now called the First Law of Thermodynamics:
energy is neither created nor destroyed.
In 1907 (I think), Albert Einstein announced his discovery of the equation E = mc2 and, as a consequence, the two laws above were merged into the Law of Conservation of Mass-Energy:
the total amount of mass and energy in the universe is constant.
Generally, textbooks would add, that mass and energy can interconvert.

 

[جوري]

indeed.. that is if we are to accept the apriori judgment that life and the soul are mere matter or energy.. which we don't!

 

[alcurad]

We always exist, only our forms change. We are that which we call Allah.

The biggest mistake in the Quran is the claim that Allah created life. It should have said Allah is life. This is what the Vedas proclaim.

he did know of us and our actions before creating us, but we weren't created yet.
the world began, Allah the exalted did not,he is not in our time.

 

[K.Venugopal]

indeed.. that is if we are to accept the apriori judgment that life and the soul are mere matter or energy.. which we don't!

Soul simply means essence. It is a construct of language for our understanding. Nothing like a soul exists. The essense of everything is life. Life, the Vedas say, is not a mere thing. It is eternal, all knowing and all joyous.

 

[جوري]

That is your Hindu belief and is of no consequence really-- if you take the reductionist approach and by all means do so.. you'll end up an atheist not a Hindu bathing in cow dung --

وَيَسْأَلُونَكَ عَنِ الرُّوحِ قُلِ الرُّوحُ مِنْ أَمْرِ رَبِّي وَمَا أُوتِيتُم مِّن الْعِلْمِ إِلاَّ قَلِيلاً ​

17:85

And they ask you about the soul. Say, .The soul is something from the command of my Lord, and you are not given from the knowledge but a little..
Pickthall: They will ask thee concerning the Spirit. Say: The Spirit is by command of my Lord, and of knowledge ye have been vouchsafed but little.
Sahih International : And they ask you about the soul. Say, "The soul is of the affair of my Lord. And mankind have not been given of knowledge except a little."

 

[K.Venugopal]

he did know of us and our actions before creating us, but we weren't created yet.
the world began, Allah the exalted did not,he is not in our time.

There is no time except as a tool of man's measurement. Allah = existence. Existence = life. Life, clothed in various forms, enacts the drama of existence. Some call this drama "creation".

 

[- Qatada -]

If Allah created everything, the question who created Allah is valid. If nobody created Allah and Allah always existed, then could not the so-called creation also have always existed? That which ever exists - existence - is life. The so-called creation is nothing other than life taking on different forms. We always exist, only our forms change. We are that which we call Allah.

The biggest mistake in the Quran is the claim that Allah created life. It should have said Allah is life. This is what the Vedas proclaim.

Allah is Al Hayy - the Living. His life is different to human life, human life is created, but since He is Perfect - He is not created.

In regard to the issue of the universe and matter being eternal, then we don't believe this. We believe matter changes form [after first originally being created] because Allah controls it in a way so that life survives within it, or for another greater benefit.


To say that everything is 'within' God justifies the concept of immorality, and injustice - since everyone will justify evil by saying its a part of 'God' and God is not evil - therefore giving them the chance to do evil without no consequence.

its been addressed before here;
http://www.islamicboard.com/dawah/134274732-refutation-pantheism-all-god-god-all.html

 

[K.Venugopal]

Allah is Al Hayy - the Living. His life is different to human life, human life is created, but since He is Perfect - He is not created.

To say that everything is 'within' God justifies the concept of immorality, and injustice - since everyone will justify evil by saying its a part of 'God' and God is not evil - therefore giving them the chance to do evil without no consequence.

Life is indivisible. There are no two lives, except as separated temporarily in various forms. Life, in its essence, is formless. That life is called Allah. All other lives are called variously according to its various forms. But forms are not eternal, only life is.

About justifying immorality - moral and immoral exist only because man puts a value on actions. If Allah created everything, surely he is responsible for every thing, including man's immoral actions. But in existence, moral and immoral are not relevant except in the lives of humans.