The "women" debate

[Bhabha]

Somehow the thread that was meant to be for eastern and western debate was either deleted or moved to the unknown.

I prepared a large post and I'm not going to loose it !

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I'm not devaluing women who choose to stay at home and do housework. I am simply stating that the household duties are not just confined to the "womenfolk" and are not "feminine" work at all. To assume that only women and only feminine women do these household duties is also to devalue the work of women who choose to pursue careers outside of the conventional household, who choose to be scholars, be in politics, and do work that is generally seen and painted as "masculine". We have to get out of the assumptions that women belong in specific places, they don't. Women can choose to pursue whatever it is that they wish to pursue as long as it does not in any way violate Islamic teachings.

Obviously neither women or men should pursue fields where their faith and values are in question, I.e industries that deal with haram.

However it seems that someone in this thread assumes that I have assumptions about them, when the general "you" is meant to be a general sentence aimed at everyone who sees the thread.

I for one will not impose on my girls the duty of cleaning after the house without equally imposing this duty and obligation to my boys. That to me is unfair. I don't want the husband of my girls to treat them as though they just belong in the kitchen or cleaning and I don't want the wives of my sons to be under the assumption that they will be doing the housework. It is a shared responsibility and let's face it, there is no "single" person economy anymore for people to say that it is the man who will earn the income and the wife should be grateful she is not working (if she is at home). I say that if the wife stays at home and does the household duties, it is the husband who should be grateful that she is doing MORE work that is unrecognized and is therefore often undervalued.

I never meant to sound like I was undervaluing a woman who chooses to do work inside the house. Just the opposite, I don't think it is fair that this is just seen as a woman's place and her husbands financial income is seen to be superior and required for sustenance.

Such as the following scenario:

Husband comes home and the house is not clean, there is not food on the table, etc.

He says to his wife "Why is the house not clean? You were home all day"

Her response "Why aren't we rich? You work all day"

----

As such the issue to consider is that people undervalue the actual work performed by women, who integrate all of the following individual duties: nanny (taking care of the child), maid (cleaning), cook (cooking). Etc. She has to be so many positions that it is unfair to ask this of a woman without providing help. As far as I know and according to sharia, the wife is not obligated to perform all of these tasks. Her only obligation is not to go outside of the house, not to allow strangers in her husbands house and therefore care for his property and to be intimate with her husband. Her husband has to assist her in cooking, cleaning and taking care of the kids, but she is not obligated.

Despite this I have seen countless of times that many women who devote themselves to doing things out of love for their husbands, taking care of children, cooking, cleaning, being intimate with them are not held with high regard when the husband decided to seek a second, third or even fourth wife. Is there no shame?

Sometimes they seek divorce and after having been faithful wives, dedicated, etc. Those who did not work are left with literally nothing. They have to go back to their families or seek a second marriage because they do not have the skills, experience or sometimes education (because they chose to stay at home to care for their children) and are therefore unable to provide for themselves.

 

[anatolian]

The problem, it was seen the duty of men to work and women to do house works in the old times but today women are working as well. So, if the woman works, the man must do the house work as well. Thats simple. The only problem here is to find a man who is willing to do this

 

[Umm♥Layth]

Re: The "women" debate

The thread wasn't actually meant to be an eastern and western "debate". It was a question a brother posed seeking advice about marriage and it turned into a discussion about household duties, feminism, and blanketing cultures.

Admin started a thread about this said eastern and western debate, but what's the point? That's not what the discussion was meant to be about.

Furthermore, you are still generalizing here and there is no use in having a discussion when there's blankets everywhere and babies thrown out with their bath waters lol.

A discussion should be an intellectual one, so we can learn. Not full of accusations and assumptions. It doesn't really lead anywhere and I hope you can understand where I'm coming from I'll give it one more shot and make a few points, just because its a favorite subject of mine

The arguments you pose here are all just regurgitations from other feminists and its the same ongoing dilemmas over and over. Its a sort of resentment women have in general, nothing to do with Islam, it just gets thrown together, especially for converts. I am not in disagreement that boys and girls should all know how to do household duties. It is necessary. The issues are within some cultures, again, not Islam.

You are right, there are no rules in sharia that say women have to do all the housework, but the QURAN does clearly say we must obey our husbands (oh no!) and if you (you in general) marry a man that is going to request this of you, then be prepared to accept it. Otherwise, what responsibility does a woman have in a marriage? To sit there and look pretty? A man is obligated to provide and she gets to just suck her thumb? Talk about unfair! lol.

No, doesn't work that way. Men must provide, women must be obedient and everything in between is cool as long as it is not haraam. We get to choose our spouse and our lifestyles. Those who get forced into marriage should know that isn't from Islam and it is a different topic all together. Most of these women that feminists get upset over are actually OKAY with their culture and follow it without a fuss.

In my home (and again, sharing my household so I hope you are reading this time) my husband always helps with chores. He cleans vomits, wipes butts and changes diapers too not as often as I do, because he can't do that when he's at work of course. My son helps me cook and he always has to clean up after himself. I'm nobody's maid here and everyone is clear on that I'm teaching him how to do laundry and sew his own clothes (The prophet knew how to sew you know :3 ) when he is of age to do so.

My husband is the main breadwinner and we live within these means, so yep, a one income household is doable still. My ex husband and his brothers all have a one income household and they live very well It goes back to requirements before marriage. I was not interested in going back to the workforce, I wanted to stay home and work on my business. I would not have married my husband had he wanted another lifestyle. It's about choices.

There is no beef if a couple wants a dual household, but it doesn't run the same as a single income household, so comparing these two households is very unfair. Dual income households require that spouses split everything 50/50 or that they hire help. Single income households usually have separate duties, which are agreed upon before marriage. What's the problem? Both parties are fulfilling their duties right?

The only problem I have witnessed with 50/50 households is that the women are more unhappy, why? Another subject.

Both men and women can be VERY unfair in a marriage. I have seen plenty of cases where women go see other men while husbands are out working all day. I've seen cases where women just take off one day because they get tired of the lifestyle THEY CHOSE and take all belongings, money, kids and then come the false accusations of abuse. A man loses EVERYTHING in a blink of an eye. Women don't care to hear this part though, they are only interested in the abuse sob stories and I have personal beef with that because I actually endured real physical abuse and cheating.

I have seen men be totally ungrateful and leave their "frumpy" wives who haven't slept because of the baby, for some young, fresh looking girl. It goes BOTH ways.

My problem here, again, is generalizing, making things about Islam when they aren't, Demonizing cultures and all that jazz. This stuff happens everywhere and nobody cares as much for some reason. ^o)

Islam is perfect. People are not. end of.

Also, feel free to call me out by my screen name. I don't mind. If you meant "you in general" you should have stated so. You clearly were addressing me as the discussion was between you and me towards the end.

Thank you for engaging in this discussion. Not sure there is much else to say though :statisfie

 

[MuslimInshallah]

Re: The "women" debate

Assalaamu alaikum Bhabha,

(smile) Thank you for this initiative.

I understand your feelings. There is certainly injustice done to some women around this question. But I wonder if it might not be more fruitful to frame the question differently. Perhaps it might be useful to wonder why the work that women do when they are not paid is so undervalued in our world today?

If I am a woman raising, cooking for, cleaning for and educating my children (and indeed, I am such a woman)... why is it that I am considered as less valuable a person than a woman (or a man) who gets paid for doing the same tasks (and often not as well as I myself do them)? Was this always true? From what I can tell of reading history, this was not historically true. So why is this the dominant vision today?

And who or what benefits from this vision?

(smile) May God Bless you, my dear.

 

[anatolian]

Re: The "women" debate

And who or what benefits from this vision?

The ones who are using women..

 

[MuslimInshallah]

Re: The "women" debate

The ones who are using women..

(smile) And who (or what) do you think this might be? And how does it benefit these people (or systems? Or...?)?

 

[greenhill]

Re: The "women" debate

(smile) And who (or what) do you think this might be? And how does it benefit these people (or systems? Or...?)?

I reckon it is part of the plan to destabilise the faith. . . to plant the seeds of discontentment . . . to question the role of women, to assume that covering up is like an oppression, or why men are allowed more than one wife, why women cannot lead prayers etc..

From the looks of things, it is working...


eace:

 

[MuslimInshallah]

Re: The "women" debate

I reckon it is part of the plan to destabilise the faith. . . to plant the seeds of discontentment . . . to question the role of women, to assume that covering up is like an oppression, or why men are allowed more than one wife, why women cannot lead prayers etc..

From the looks of things, it is working...


eace:

Assalaamu alaikum greenhill,

(smile) Good to see you... it's been a while (my fault for not being very active!).

But is it only Muslims who are being targeted by these beliefs?

 

[anatolian]

Re: The "women" debate

(smile) And who (or what) do you think this might be? And how does it benefit these people (or systems? Or...?)?

Who do you think would use women?..It is because when you disgrace the work people do and make them believe so, you can force them to do more and you can use more of them.

 

[MuslimInshallah]

Re: The "women" debate

Who do you think would use women?..It is because when you disgrace the work people do and make them believe so, you can force them to do more and you can use more of them.

(smile) You have not answered the question of "who or what".

Also, is it the work itself that is necessarily being disgraced? If I am a daycare worker, do I not have some value? And am I working harder than a mother with her own children?

 

[greenhill]

Re: The "women" debate

Assalaamu alaikum greenhill,

. . . . . . .

But is it only Muslims who are being targeted by these beliefs?

I am going to stick my neck out and say "Yes!"

Why would I say this? It is because Satan has made a vow to mislead ALL believers until doomsday. He has done it all the previous Books and the Quran is no different (only that Allah has preserved it verbatim), so with our Book preserved, Satan has to find other ways to create doubts and he has to work very hard indeed.


eace:

 

[Bhabha]

Muslims are not being targeted by these beliefs. This is a general conflict in terms of things that are "feminine" and fit for women to work, etc.

Women wear pink
Women cook
Women clean
Women do this
Women do that

Why imposition on women?

Women are burdened, whether we like to admit it not. Makes no difference at all. The majority of times, if women choose to work they are also burdened with taking care of the household and if they don't choose to work they are also burdened with taking care of the household and have to ask for money for them to do anything, they are at the mercy of whether or not their husband is someone who will be generous to them or someone who will be stingy. This is seen in ANY religion and is not specific to any religion. I've had friends in all religions who have been either at the mercy of their husband to do anything outside or have had their own income for them to meet with friends, buy whatever they want without having to ask for money. In retrospect women who are taking care of a household should not have to ask for money at all, it should be freely given to them, available whenever they wish to use it and not a "reward" for taking care of a household, that's not right.

So if a woman has her own job, her own income, she is not at the mercy of her husband who could at any time divorce her.

 

[Bhabha]

The problem, it was seen the duty of men to work and women to do house works in the old times but today women are working as well. So, if the woman works, the man must do the house work as well. Thats simple. The only problem here is to find a man who is willing to do this

In one of my classes, we were discussing Muslim women of the Ottoman Empire, before the spread of Europeans into the Ottoman Empire. My professor made note that it is historically incorrect to assume that women have been at the home doing household duties without working. This is a European fallacy BTW. As Europeans were the most oppressive towards their womenfolk and women were neither allowed to have money gained from working or to hold their own property.

Women in the ottoman periods had their own businesses and were very wealthy of their own without their husbands money.

So it is incorrect to stipulate that women's place has been in the household historically, only in some cultures ( in this case I say mostly European cultures ) as women in the time of the Prophet fought alongside him and Khadijah was a very successful business woman.

 

[Bhabha]

UmmLayth you are blocked. So I won't bother responding to you, but there are different forms of feminism just so you know. I had a lot of classes that argued with different forms of feminism in my graduate seminars and I never agreed with any of them. So please do not accuse me of regurgitating feminist arguments if you do not know well enough the arguments to make that accusation.

Thanks

 

['Abd-al Latif]

UmmLayth you are blocked. So I won't bother responding to you, but there are different forms of feminism just so you know. I had a lot of classes that argued with different forms of feminism in my graduate seminars and I never agreed with any of them. So please do not accuse me of regurgitating feminist arguments if you do not know well enough the arguments to make that accusation.

Thanks

Your posts are screaming for gender equality which implies that you believe there is gender inequality in Islam. Have I understood you correctly? I want to write a response but I want to make sure that I've understood you.

 

[Bhabha]

Your posts are screaming for gender equality which implies that you believe there is gender inequality in Islam. Have I understood you correctly? I want to write a response but I want to make sure that I've understood you.

When did I say that I believe there is gender inequality in Islam? [emoji33]

When you see a post that says "Oh there isn't gender equality in Islam" please quote me on that, otherwise don't make assumptions.

So no. You have not understood me at all.

 

['Abd-al Latif]

When did I say that I believe there is gender inequality in Islam? [emoji33]

When you see a post that says "Oh there isn't gender equality in Islam" please quote me on that, otherwise don't make assumptions.

So no. You have not understood me at all.

I didnt say you said it I said you implied it.

You're clearly advocating for equality as you're critiquing men who restrict women to specific roles within society (specifically in the context of a Muslim society) suggesting that this shouldn't be the case any longer as this devalues women. If you're not suggesting that there is inequality which needs to be eradicated then what are you saying?

 

[Bhabha]

I didnt say you said it I said you implied it.

You're clearly advocating for equality as you're critiquing men who restrict women to specific roles within society (specifically in the context of a Muslim society) suggesting that this shouldn't be the case any longer as this devalues women. If you're not suggesting that there is inequality which needs to be eradicated then what are you saying?

Hence why I told you not to make assumptions, as in don't pull words out of context or derive your own meaning from something that I am saying.

However, let's back up a little and something you said is quite interesting.

You're saying I am advocating for equality because I am critiquing men who restrict women to specific roles within society. I never once shouted equality and never once advocated for it, I was merely point out that women and men should not be relegated to do specific duties and that women should not be so consumed to be doing chores that are painted as their territory. I also said that both women AND men should be doing household chores and that men should be helping women.

You said in specific words "equality"; therefore assuming in some way or shape that there is inequality at presence that needs to be addressed. I never said that in any moment, I merely talked about assisting women as it is unfair to burden ANYONE (WOMEN or MAN) with the amount of work required to take care of a household. There's cleaning, there's cooking, there's taking care of a child. These are three positions that are often times filled by three different people, which is why people enjoy going to restaurants, they don't have to 1) cook and they don't have to 2) clean. In my arguments, I used women in the time of the Prophet to exemplify that women have worked successfully and have joined men in battle, OUTSIDE of the home. I should also remind you that the Prophet helped clean the house and if there was nothing cooked, he ate dates, thereby never forcing or compelling his wives to do cleaning OR cooking for him.

So please tell me how I am clearly advocating for an equality that is already present in Islam? I strongly believe there is equality in Islam, but I do not believe it is applied. I converted for Islam, not for the examples set by Muslims. Those are entirely and completely different things. As someone here said that Islam and PEOPLE (Muslim) are entirely different. Not 100% of Muslims adhere to Islamic teachings, so if I sound like I am critiquing in the context of a Muslim society, you know that this is true and have therefore allowed your own observations to declare assumptions on what I have said.

We need to address grievances in our societies in order to ensure we are adhering to Islamic teachings, not defending "cultural" items that cloud.

If there is something again that is misunderstood, please let me know

 

[Umm♥Layth]

UmmLayth you are blocked. So I won't bother responding to you, but there are different forms of feminism just so you know. I had a lot of classes that argued with different forms of feminism in my graduate seminars and I never agreed with any of them. So please do not accuse me of regurgitating feminist arguments if you do not know well enough the arguments to make that accusation.

Thanks

:giggling::embarrassmg: Ok. Well, as they say "if you can't take the heat, get out of the cocina". Look, the truth makes people very uncomfortable, especially when they are living a lie. I am not the most eloquent of people and I do come off quite headstrong. Just not the type to beat around the bush. I do apologize if I've hurt you <3

Anyway, I will still come back and clarify some misunderstandings that Bhabha clearly has for the benefit of anyone else reading this information. insha'Allah. Just busy atm.

 

[*charisma*]

Re: The &quot;women&quot; debate

Assalamu Alaikum [MENTION=38772]Bhabha[/MENTION]

I'm not devaluing women who choose to stay at home and do housework. I am simply stating that the household duties are not just confined to the "womenfolk" and are not "feminine" work at all. To assume that only women and only feminine women do these household duties is also to devalue the work of women who choose to pursue careers outside of the conventional household, who choose to be scholars, be in politics, and do work that is generally seen and painted as "masculine". We have to get out of the assumptions that women belong in specific places, they don't. Women can choose to pursue whatever it is that they wish to pursue as long as it does not in any way violate Islamic teachings.

Obviously neither women or men should pursue fields where their faith and values are in question, I.e industries that deal with haram.

However it seems that someone in this thread assumes that I have assumptions about them, when the general "you" is meant to be a general sentence aimed at everyone who sees the thread.

I for one will not impose on my girls the duty of cleaning after the house without equally imposing this duty and obligation to my boys. That to me is unfair. I don't want the husband of my girls to treat them as though they just belong in the kitchen or cleaning and I don't want the wives of my sons to be under the assumption that they will be doing the housework. It is a shared responsibility and let's face it, there is no "single" person economy anymore for people to say that it is the man who will earn the income and the wife should be grateful she is not working (if she is at home). I say that if the wife stays at home and does the household duties, it is the husband who should be grateful that she is doing MORE work that is unrecognized and is therefore often undervalued.

I agree with what you're saying here, and I don't believe there would or should be any disagreement with that.

As such the issue to consider is that people undervalue the actual work performed by women, who integrate all of the following individual duties: nanny (taking care of the child), maid (cleaning), cook (cooking). Etc. She has to be so many positions that it is unfair to ask this of a woman without providing help. As far as I know and according to sharia, the wife is not obligated to perform all of these tasks. Her only obligation is not to go outside of the house, not to allow strangers in her husbands house and therefore care for his property and to be intimate with her husband. Her husband has to assist her in cooking, cleaning and taking care of the kids, but she is not obligated.

That's true, however it really all depends on the situation of the couple. I expect that if a woman is a housewife and therefore not working, then she should be cleaning, cooking, taking care of the kids, etc. She always has the choice to do what she wants to do of course, but if she's not doing anything then I personally consider that as laziness and entitlement. It's not haram to be that way, but it's not ideal either.

Every family unit operates the way they frame themselves to operate. No one can restrict a woman to do anything more than herself, especially today.

It's not really ok to generalize and believe that being a housewife is more difficult than working at a job/making a living or vice versa. They are both important in different ways and both challenging as well. Just because a husband is absent from the "house life" and providing for his family, doesn't mean he is absent from the family life too. He is still a husband/father at the end of the day and such roles are more important.

Despite this I have seen countless of times that many women who devote themselves to doing things out of love for their husbands, taking care of children, cooking, cleaning, being intimate with them are not held with high regard when the husband decided to seek a second, third or even fourth wife. Is there no shame?

I don't understand this statement. High regard in what effect? Can you clarify? Are you saying that if a husband marries a second wife it means he never appreciated the efforts of the first wife? Or are you implying that even if a woman satisfies all of her duties as a wife, her husband will still seek another wife regardless so therefore what is the point of her putting in all that work? What is the husband supposed to feel ashamed about?

Sometimes they seek divorce and after having been faithful wives, dedicated, etc. Those who did not work are left with literally nothing. They have to go back to their families or seek a second marriage because they do not have the skills, experience or sometimes education (because they chose to stay at home to care for their children) and are therefore unable to provide for themselves.

Why is the husband to blame for this if this is what the wife chose to do?