The "women" debate

['Abd-al Latif]

I suppose it is better to see the woman you supposedly love in pain all day after standing up and cleaning the household? Correct? Or would you rather see the woman you love calm with the energy to read the Quran, to teach the children to read the Quran, excited to see you come home, able to pull of amazing dishes without the stress of having to clean up after the kitchen, yet look pretty and smell amazing for her husband when he rushes home.

The daughter of the Prophet saws1 was refused a maid by the Messenger himself yet she was still able to make time to recite Quran and such. The modern women clearly needs an extra pair of hands to be half productive.

This isn't the first time you've avoided my questions. I believe I've made my point and have nothing more to contribute.

w/salam

 

[Simple_Person]

Re: The "women" debate

Omg....

I am not looking down on men who are equal victims of fights in their relationships. And as I said to someone in this thread, using the word "feminist" is to make someone who is trying to alleviate women's problems as hysterical and illogical. I never said that men are not victims and I did not laugh at men who have been victims. I understand both men and women are victimized, but I was not speaking at all about victimization, I was speaking about fairness in the distribution of work in the house.

It is unfair for women to be given the only burden of doing housework, it is both and women who should be doing this. I never once spoke about 'victim' here or 'victim' there, that is your lens on which you twisted my discussion. The only time I might have ever mentioned is on the occasion that women have to do all of the housework and the husband does not once ever provide them with financial recompense where they can choose to spend money on themselves, to save it, invest it., etc. Equally the same I have also seen on situations where women take everything that the man had and he is left with nothing. There are opposites on both ends that we need to mediate away from and enter a balance, such that neither party enters into disagreement.

Sister, i have never claimed you are one of those women that laughs at men who are victims, i said i have seen those things happen. Please do not automatically brand yourself as such because i say i have seen such women. I have not seen you or read from your comments that you are such a woman and it is forbidden for me as a Muslim to assume such evil thing of you.

And as I said to someone in this thread

Also please do not belittle that other sister (as how it looks like to me when you said that), as she is your and my sister in both humanity as well as Islam. She has a nickname and we both know who we are talking about. Always be nice even though we might disagree on something.

That you bring this issue of women have to do more housework, shows you have not really thought deeply about this matter. Let me ask you some questions.

- How come men ARE the providers (money) of a household?
- Can you please give me direct references where it is said that it is mandatory for a woman to do the household work? (because so far i have not found any)
- Can you please give me direct references where it is said that a man must NOT help in a household?
- Can you please give me direct references where men must NOT give money to their wives so they can spend on themselves (clothes, make-up, etc)
- Can you please give me direct references where it is said that women may not work, so they can save their money?
- Can you please tell me on what basis is your argument why you think PRACTICING Muslim men do not have to help out in a household?
- Do please with all of these questions leave out culture, because this is a Islamic forum, not a culture-forum. So all the rules according to culture we do not abide by those.

I will in'sha'Allah be waiting patiently for your reply.

 

[Bhabha]

Re: The "women" debate

The daughter of the Prophet saws1 was refused a maid by the Messenger himself yet she was still able to make time to recite Quran and such. The modern women clearly needs an extra pair of hands to be half productive.

This isn't the first time you've avoided my questions. I believe I've made my point and have nothing more to contribute.

w/salam

Can you please tell me which of the daughters of the Prophet was the one that was refused a maid? Was it a paid maid or a slave?

Thanks

- - - Updated - - -

The daughter of the Prophet saws1 was refused a maid by the Messenger himself yet she was still able to make time to recite Quran and such. The modern women clearly needs an extra pair of hands to be half productive.

This isn't the first time you've avoided my questions. I believe I've made my point and have nothing more to contribute.

w/salam

Can you please tell me which of the daughters of the Prophet was the one that was refused a maid? Was it a paid maid or a slave?

Thanks

- - - Updated - - -

Sister, i have never claimed you are one of those women that laughs at men who are victims, i said i have seen those things happen. Please do not automatically brand yourself as such because i say i have seen such women. I have not seen you or read from your comments that you are such a woman and it is forbidden for me as a Muslim to assume such evil thing of you.



Also please do not belittle that other sister (as how it looks like to me when you said that), as she is your and my sister in both humanity as well as Islam. She has a nickname and we both know who we are talking about. Always be nice even though we might disagree on something.

That you bring this issue of women have to do more housework, shows you have not really thought deeply about this matter. Let me ask you some questions.

- How come men ARE the providers (money) of a household?
- Can you please give me direct references where it is said that it is mandatory for a woman to do the household work? (because so far i have not found any)
- Can you please give me direct references where it is said that a man must NOT help in a household?
- Can you please give me direct references where men must NOT give money to their wives so they can spend on themselves (clothes, make-up, etc)
- Can you please give me direct references where it is said that women may not work, so they can save their money?
- Can you please tell me on what basis is your argument why you think PRACTICING Muslim men do not have to help out in a household?
- Do please with all of these questions leave out culture, because this is a Islamic forum, not a culture-forum. So all the rules according to culture we do not abide by those.

I will in'sha'Allah be waiting patiently for your reply.

I cannot give you direct references where it is mandatory for a woman to do the household work - hence why I argue! people assume it is!
I cannot give you references that a man must not help in a household - hence my arguments, people assume men do not need to do these things.
I cannot give you references that a man must not give money to his wife - hence my arguments, people.. people...
etc. etc. etc.,

We are on the exact same side from the questions you just asked me, that is why I am writing in this forum because it is the assumption of society that these things be that they are, and it does not come from Islam at all. I never said that practicing Muslim men do not have to help in a household, did I not point to the fact that the Prophet HELPED? So why do you think I am arguing that Muslim men do not have to help in a household? I think you're reading what I am writing incorrectly.

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

 

[M.I.A.]

Re: The "women" debate

I agree, it is easier to be helpful when there's security behind you. I would also apply this to a marriage situation where the wife has to be at home, if by security you mean financial security. Right?

Well yeah, in my naivety thats what i thought i meant..

But security of the home and all those things that go with it.. also applies.

Every path requires sacrifice.. in any of its many forms.

Allah swt make it easy for us.

But yeah, everbodies tests are there own.

I dont want to belittle any way of life but the housewife surely denies hereself the most.

 

[Simple_Person]

Re: The "women" debate

I cannot give you direct references where it is mandatory for a woman to do the household work - hence why I argue! people assume it is!
I cannot give you references that a man must not help in a household - hence my arguments, people assume men do not need to do these things.
I cannot give you references that a man must not give money to his wife - hence my arguments, people.. people...
etc. etc. etc.,

We are on the exact same side from the questions you just asked me, that is why I am writing in this forum because it is the assumption of society that these things be that they are, and it does not come from Islam at all. I never said that practicing Muslim men do not have to help in a household, did I not point to the fact that the Prophet HELPED? So why do you think I am arguing that Muslim men do not have to help in a household? I think you're reading what I am writing incorrectly.

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

There you answered your own problem/irritation/topic.

Read the red bold parts.

======Hadith=====
“Islam began as something strange and will go back to being strange, so glad tidings to the strangers.” It was said: “Who are the strangers?’ He said: “Strangers who have left their families and tribes.”

Source used: https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah/36/63
===============

Do you want to be a stranger? Or do you not want to be a stranger?

I walk with a smile on my face everyday because i am a stranger in society. I have a opinion. I wear clothes that society would say it is boring. I look down when i see a woman and society says i am gay because i do not look. When somebody insults me, i rather treat him with respect, society says i am a loser for not hitting back (insulting back). I do not watch tv, society says you have nothing useful to talk about (pop idols, football, big brother..etc)

So why are you putting something on the "strangers"-forum, while no "stranger" her is arguing against you?

If you are not married yet, find out what the Prophet (saws) of the strangers has advised what kind of spouse to marry. .

 

[Bhabha]

Re: The "women" debate

There you answered your own problem/irritation/topic.

Read the red bold parts.

======Hadith=====
“Islam began as something strange and will go back to being strange, so glad tidings to the strangers.” It was said: “Who are the strangers?’ He said: “Strangers who have left their families and tribes.”

Source used: https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah/36/63
===============

Do you want to be a stranger? Or do you not want to be a stranger?

I walk with a smile on my face everyday because i am a stranger in society. I have a opinion. I wear clothes that society would say it is boring. I look down when i see a woman and society says i am gay because i do not look. When somebody insults me, i rather treat him with respect, society says i am a loser for not hitting back (insulting back). I do not watch tv, society says you have nothing useful to talk about (pop idols, football, big brother..etc)

So why are you putting something on the "strangers"-forum, while "stranger" her is arguing against you?

If you are not married yet, find out what the Prophet (saws) of the strangers has advised what kind of spouse to marry. .

Lol. I agree with you, but I think somewhere down the line came misunderstandings due to people's personal situations that made them argue against the idea of ever providing a wife with assistance, let alone assisting her and hence it spun into a web of continual arguments.

I don't know who would argue against providing the person you love with assistance so that their burden is lessened and their energies are not spent before the end of the day. After all, the best of husbands are those that are good to their wives, and that also comes out of realizing that housework in itself is very draining chore. Or perhaps it's just me, I absolutely hate doing housework, I like cooking, but I don't like cleaning the kitchen or doing the dishes, or mopping the floor. I like gardening, but I don't like cutting the grass lol. If I am ever with the task of cleaning the dishes, I stick them in the dishwasher otherwise I get grumpy and in a bad mood.

I also don't like a dirty house, and even though I dislike doing housework, I absolutely cannot come home to a messy house because I get stressed out.... but I'd rather pay for a maid to clean the house while I'm out, then to come home and clean it. @______@; like those cleaning ladies that come in the morning and leave before you come back, how did the house get all nice and clean? miracles :nervous::nervous::shade:

 

[Simple_Person]

Re: The "women" debate

Lol. I agree with you, but I think somewhere down the line came misunderstandings due to people's personal situations that made them argue against the idea of ever providing a wife with assistance, let alone assisting her and hence it spun into a web of continual arguments.

I don't know who would argue against providing the person you love with assistance so that their burden is lessened and their energies are not spent before the end of the day. After all, the best of husbands are those that are good to their wives, and that also comes out of realizing that housework in itself is very draining chore. Or perhaps it's just me, I absolutely hate doing housework, I like cooking, but I don't like cleaning the kitchen or doing the dishes, or mopping the floor. I like gardening, but I don't like cutting the grass lol. If I am ever with the task of cleaning the dishes, I stick them in the dishwasher otherwise I get grumpy and in a bad mood.

I also don't like a dirty house, and even though I dislike doing housework, I absolutely cannot come home to a messy house because I get stressed out.... but I'd rather pay for a maid to clean the house while I'm out, then to come home and clean it. @______@; like those cleaning ladies that come in the morning and leave before you come back, how did the house get all nice and clean? miracles :nervous::nervous::shade:

One of the Sunnah of Rasullah(saws) was taking Ghusl on Jumah. The question you and i need to ask ourselves, why? What are the "benefits" for example doing it? We can easily find 1 benefit, which is becoming clean. This and also enough other instances within Islam being clean is part of being a Muslim. The "problem" with you, is you look at such things because of your own will. (free will). I have in my first comment on this topic already mentioned, Muslims do NOT have a free will. Because they already know the Islamic way of life is the best way of life.

You dislike something (in general) not because you dislike it, but because your fitrah dislikes it..in other words ..disliked by Islam. In again other words, disliked by Allah. You "disliking" doing the dishes and cleaning the house, must have a deeper meaning. Or deeper problem. Find out what that is.

I live by myself and i have been taking care of myself since when i was 16. This is already like 15 years. I cook, clean, do the dishes..you name it. I at first HATED doing the dishes. However this was BEFORE Islam. Islam cured what i loved and what i hated. Now the things that i loved, i hate it and what i hated it i love doing it. What am i talking about? Fitrah. When your fitrah is restored you automatically do certain stuff and love doing it.

So go and ponder at a philosophical level why you hate such things? Do they remind you of women being oppressed and thus you hate it? Or is it because of something else? Please do not answer them to me, rather to yourself.

Also do NOT be depended on people..ONLY on Allah. What i mean by that is the maid you are talking about. Do not get lazy, it is a dangerous thing. No maiden can clean your house to the degree as you like it to be cleaned except you yourself.

Put the recitation of Qur'an on and start cleaning.

 

[Bhabha]

Re: The "women" debate

One of the Sunnah of Rasullah(saws) was taking Ghusl on Jumah. The question you and i need to ask ourselves, why? What are the "benefits" for example doing it? We can easily find 1 benefit, which is becoming clean. This and also enough other instances within Islam being clean is part of being a Muslim. The "problem" with you, is you look at such things because of your own will. (free will). I have in my first comment on this topic already mentioned, Muslims do NOT have a free will. Because they already know the Islamic way of life is the best way of life.

You dislike something (in general) not because you dislike it, but because your fitrah dislikes it..in other words ..disliked by Islam. In again other words, disliked by Allah. You "disliking" doing the dishes and cleaning the house, must have a deeper meaning. Or deeper problem. Find out what that is.

I live by myself and i have been taking care of myself since when i was 16. This is already like 15 years. I cook, clean, do the dishes..you name it. I at first HATED doing the dishes. However this was BEFORE Islam. Islam cured what i loved and what i hated. Now the things that i loved, i hate it and what i hated it i love doing it. What am i talking about? Fitrah. When your fitrah is restored you automatically do certain stuff and love doing it.

So go and ponder at a philosophical level why you hate such things? Do they remind you of women being oppressed and thus you hate it? Or is it because of something else? Please do not answer them to me, rather to yourself.

Also do NOT be depended on people..ONLY on Allah. What i mean by that is the maid you are talking about. Do not get lazy, it is a dangerous thing. No maiden can clean your house to the degree as you like it to be cleaned except you yourself.

Put the recitation of Qur'an on and start cleaning.

No I hate it because they make me tired and they hurt my gentle hands. I don't want callouses. I dislike it because I don't want to spend my life cleaning, do you not realize how ungrateful the kitchen is? Specially when there's a lot of people in a house? It is the most ungrateful part of the house and to be spending time there cleaning is an ETERNAL thing. For me, an eternal hell. So no thanks.

I am not a lazy person, just because I don't LOVE cleaning, doesn't mean I am lazy. I spend my time doing other things.

 

[STN]

Muslims are not being targeted by these beliefs. This is a general conflict in terms of things that are "feminine" and fit for women to work, etc.

Women wear pink
Women cook
Women clean
Women do this
Women do that

Why imposition on women?

Women are burdened, whether we like to admit it not. Makes no difference at all. The majority of times, if women choose to work they are also burdened with taking care of the household and if they don't choose to work they are also burdened with taking care of the household and have to ask for money for them to do anything, they are at the mercy of whether or not their husband is someone who will be generous to them or someone who will be stingy. This is seen in ANY religion and is not specific to any religion. I've had friends in all religions who have been either at the mercy of their husband to do anything outside or have had their own income for them to meet with friends, buy whatever they want without having to ask for money. In retrospect women who are taking care of a household should not have to ask for money at all, it should be freely given to them, available whenever they wish to use it and not a "reward" for taking care of a household, that's not right.

So if a woman has her own job, her own income, she is not at the mercy of her husband who could at any time divorce her.

Whoa...i find it incredibly attractive when a woman wears pink or pinkish red. It is a feminine color and so should only be wore by women. It just looks weird and "gay" on a guy especially if it's the only color or the prominent color.

Rest of the argument, i agree with some points and don't want to get into that. But you chose a very bad first example to make your point =). Do the feminists have something against women wearing pink now ? I fear they're going to have something against douches next.

I could be wrong but reading your posts, i get the feeling your mind has been poisoned by the campaign the feminists are running and you consider a housewife to be doing a degrading work and are not appreciated by their husbands, kids.

In this thread alone, women themselves are defending against that point of view and not men.

And don't think someone is stopping housewives from going to work and having their income. Even in a conservative country that i live in, my cousin got married to a guy who is rich himself but my cousin still works. She lives and goes to another far city for work and her husband doesn't have an issue with that. But if a woman is happy being a housewife then it's her choice.

You give the example of Khadijah (R.A) but she (R.A) was such an exemplary woman that she (R.A) was there to comfort Prophet Mohammad (SAWW) at every moment when any hardship befell on him (SAWW) from the Kufar, Quraish.

 

[*charisma*]

Bhabha is an unmarried woman. She doesn't know what married life is except from the talks of unhappy women. She just doesn't want to get married and be expected to clean because she hates cleaning, and on top of that she despises men who have more than one wife even though it's clearly allowed in Islam. I think this is what the conversation here is summing up. Generalizing all men to be a certain way and picking and choosing what you like from the religion doesn't make sense. Like you can't just say "oh wives should have helpers and their men should help them because this is from the sunnah" and then speak badly about men who have multiple wives. There's a lot of double standards. If you don't like cleaning or household work, that's your issue. If you don't like the idea of multiple wives, that's your shortcoming. But many women can clean, cook, go to work, take care of their children and do not want a stranger around their house doing the things that they can do themselves. On top of that they are educated and do not feel restricted in their daily lives to do what they want. There are also women who are absolutely content being cowives. Serving others brings about a sense of pride and joy that you can't get from receiving. If a woman is complaining to you about the private affairs between her and her husband then that is a woman with a loose tongue. No one is forced to get married and furthermore no one is forced to get married to a man who prefers coming home to a clean home and cooked food. It would be nice to see more men knowing how to cook, clean, etc. but you can't pout and cry if you marry someone who doesn't do these after the fact. However, there's no doubt in my mind that if a wife needed help with anything the husband wouldn't hesitate to help her himself or bring help. Also, many cultures are quite family oriented, so unless the wife lives far away from her family, there are 20 members to come and help whenever necessary and theres no need to have a maid.

 

[M.I.A.]

Re: The "women" debate

No I hate it because they make me tired and they hurt my gentle hands. I don't want callouses. I dislike it because I don't want to spend my life cleaning, do you not realize how ungrateful the kitchen is? Specially when there's a lot of people in a house? It is the most ungrateful part of the house and to be spending time there cleaning is an ETERNAL thing. For me, an eternal hell. So no thanks.

I am not a lazy person, just because I don't LOVE cleaning, doesn't mean I am lazy. I spend my time doing other things.

Lol.. thats the way of the world.. it is mostly unaware of its surroundings..and how it affects the things around it..

I would say it is not an ungrateful kitchen.

Its just a room..

That teaches you things.

 

[Simple_Person]

Re: The "women" debate

No I hate it because they make me tired and they hurt my gentle hands. I don't want callouses. I dislike it because I don't want to spend my life cleaning, do you not realize how ungrateful the kitchen is? Specially when there's a lot of people in a house? It is the most ungrateful part of the house and to be spending time there cleaning is an ETERNAL thing. For me, an eternal hell. So no thanks.

I am not a lazy person, just because I don't LOVE cleaning, doesn't mean I am lazy. I spend my time doing other things.

Your perspective is rather faulty. Being tired because of cleaning or having callouses is part of life. Is part of your hard work that will testify what kind of person you were. I HATE people who are "too proud" to make their hands dirty. That is arrogance and by default the fitrah of every person hates arrogance. In my eyes they look like those "princesses". Well i even more wish for them to clean toilets so they clean their arrogance also.

You clean for the sake of Allah, not for the sake of people. People will be very ungrateful, but later in life they will realize what kind of person you were and will be in debt to you in gratefulness. This life is a test how will you handle it. If you are married, it is your job to also teach your children to help out. If you are married and you have such a bad husband that does not help out in the household, it is YOUR OWN fault for marrying him. Because you have not looked deeply enough and taken the advice of Rasullah(saws) what kind of spouse you should marry. Also if you have a lot to clean, it means you have a lot of nuisance in your house. Make it simple. Through away what you do not need or just being a nuisance in your house. I have laminate floor and it is so simple to clean. The kitchen i have covered places with tin-foil so i can easily replace it when covered with oil..and thus clean it. When you have ONLY the essentials in house, suddenly cleaning becomes so easy.

I try to be more practicing Muslim each day and i can guarantee you that if i look at myself and other brothers that also want to be more practicing in their deen, well the last woman on earth i want to marry is a woman with your mentality. Because this rather shows that you give in to your disliking or do not wrestle with it to tackle it to the ground. This is just one thing if not one of the many things i could even argue although you might not say it.

Rasullah(saws) has advised us Muslim men to marry a woman that has put her deen on #1. With this direct advice, it is rather very broad advice.

- When there is little to no money, she will say indeed Allah will always provide.(Other women make their husband crazy ..and they NEVER get enough of money..always want more and more and more..keep on nagging..look at the neighbors have this and that..look at my sister has this and that..)
- Islam says study and gain beneficial knowledge. (other women will only gain knowledge (gossiping), watching useless tv-shows)
- Islam says keep yourself pretty for your husband. (other women after birth will stay fat, while it is MANDATORY for a woman to make herself beautiful for her husband..losing weight is also part of it.)
- Islam says 1/3 food, 1/3 water, 1/3 air (other women will keep on stuffing themselves with food and drinks..becoming fat.)
- Islam says do not commit excess in everything. (other women will waste food, water, money, talk too much and useless talk, be ungrateful)
- Islam says listen to your husband unless it is haram. (other women will head their own way, go outside when it is dark, have male "friends", etc.)
- Islam says be good to your children and give them a good upbringing. (other women will treat their kids bad, hit them, give them bad role model of themselves)
and MUCH MUCH MUCH MORE..

 

[Bhabha]

Re: The "women" debate

Whoa...i find it incredibly attractive when a woman wears pink or pinkish red. It is a feminine color and so should only be wore by women. It just looks weird and "gay" on a guy especially if it's the only color or the prominent color.

Rest of the argument, i agree with some points and don't want to get into that. But you chose a very bad first example to make your point =). Do the feminists have something against women wearing pink now ? I fear they're going to have something against douches next.

I could be wrong but reading your posts, i get the feeling your mind has been poisoned by the campaign the feminists are running and you consider a housewife to be doing a degrading work and are not appreciated by their husbands, kids.

In this thread alone, women themselves are defending against that point of view and not men.

And don't think someone is stopping housewives from going to work and having their income. Even in a conservative country that i live in, my cousin got married to a guy who is rich himself but my cousin still works. She lives and goes to another far city for work and her husband doesn't have an issue with that. But if a woman is happy being a housewife then it's her choice.

You give the example of Khadijah (R.A) but she (R.A) was such an exemplary woman that she (R.A) was there to comfort Prophet Mohammad (SAWW) at every moment when any hardship befell on him (SAWW) from the Kufar, Quraish.

Lol, I don't have an issue with pink, my purse for today is a pink color (well more like a salmon kind of pink, I have pink... on a lot of things, but also other colors, etc). I have seen some guys wear pink in their business suits, it's a color that helps remind people of the prevalence of breast cancer and the impact contributions and studies have towards helping women who have suffered the disease.

However the point that I was trying to make is that certain colors shouldn't be "labeled" as for either gender. Society constructs items as being feminine or masculine, when colors are just.. colors, they don't have a special meaning or belong to a specific gender, they're all found in nature, in flowers, in animals, etc. Like pink blossoms, orchids, etc.

And no one is stopping wives from going to work and having their income, my mother is a dental surgeon and she owned restaurants, my father is a very wealthy man and my mother still wanted to work. She didn't go to dental school for nothing! She went to retreats in villages around the country providing assistance to people with free dental! She also did an amazing job raising my siblings and I, but she always had extra helping hands and she said that if she didn't have these helping hands, she would have not been able to enjoy the time with us.

- - - Updated - - -

Whoa...i find it incredibly attractive when a woman wears pink or pinkish red. It is a feminine color and so should only be wore by women. It just looks weird and "gay" on a guy especially if it's the only color or the prominent color.

Rest of the argument, i agree with some points and don't want to get into that. But you chose a very bad first example to make your point =). Do the feminists have something against women wearing pink now ? I fear they're going to have something against douches next.

I could be wrong but reading your posts, i get the feeling your mind has been poisoned by the campaign the feminists are running and you consider a housewife to be doing a degrading work and are not appreciated by their husbands, kids.

In this thread alone, women themselves are defending against that point of view and not men.

And don't think someone is stopping housewives from going to work and having their income. Even in a conservative country that i live in, my cousin got married to a guy who is rich himself but my cousin still works. She lives and goes to another far city for work and her husband doesn't have an issue with that. But if a woman is happy being a housewife then it's her choice.

You give the example of Khadijah (R.A) but she (R.A) was such an exemplary woman that she (R.A) was there to comfort Prophet Mohammad (SAWW) at every moment when any hardship befell on him (SAWW) from the Kufar, Quraish.

Lol, I don't have an issue with pink, my purse for today is a pink color (well more like a salmon kind of pink, I have pink... on a lot of things, but also other colors, etc). I have seen some guys wear pink in their business suits, it's a color that helps remind people of the prevalence of breast cancer and the impact contributions and studies have towards helping women who have suffered the disease.

However the point that I was trying to make is that certain colors shouldn't be "labeled" as for either gender. Society constructs items as being feminine or masculine, when colors are just.. colors, they don't have a special meaning or belong to a specific gender, they're all found in nature, in flowers, in animals, etc. Like pink blossoms, orchids, etc.

And no one is stopping wives from going to work and having their income, my mother is a dental surgeon and she owned restaurants, my father is a very wealthy man and my mother still wanted to work. She didn't go to dental school for nothing! She went to retreats in villages around the country providing assistance to people with free dental! She also did an amazing job raising my siblings and I, but she always had extra helping hands and she said that if she didn't have these helping hands, she would have not been able to enjoy the time with us.

- - - Updated - - -

Your perspective is rather faulty. Being tired because of cleaning or having callouses is part of life. Is part of your hard work that will testify what kind of person you were. I HATE people who are "too proud" to make their hands dirty. That is arrogance and by default the fitrah of every person hates arrogance. In my eyes they look like those "princesses". Well i even more wish for them to clean toilets so they clean their arrogance also.

You clean for the sake of Allah, not for the sake of people. People will be very ungrateful, but later in life they will realize what kind of person you were and will be in debt to you in gratefulness. This life is a test how will you handle it. If you are married, it is your job to also teach your children to help out. If you are married and you have such a bad husband that does not help out in the household, it is YOUR OWN fault for marrying him. Because you have not looked deeply enough and taken the advice of Rasullah(saws) what kind of spouse you should marry. Also if you have a lot to clean, it means you have a lot of nuisance in your house. Make it simple. Through away what you do not need or just being a nuisance in your house. I have laminate floor and it is so simple to clean. The kitchen i have covered places with tin-foil so i can easily replace it when covered with oil..and thus clean it. When you have ONLY the essentials in house, suddenly cleaning becomes so easy.

I try to be more practicing Muslim each day and i can guarantee you that if i look at myself and other brothers that also want to be more practicing in their deen, well the last woman on earth i want to marry is a woman with your mentality. Because this rather shows that you give in to your disliking or do not wrestle with it to tackle it to the ground. This is just one thing if not one of the many things i could even argue although you might not say it.

Rasullah(saws) has advised us Muslim men to marry a woman that has put her deen on #1. With this direct advice, it is rather very broad advice.

- When there is little to no money, she will say indeed Allah will always provide.(Other women make their husband crazy ..and they NEVER get enough of money..always want more and more and more..keep on nagging..look at the neighbors have this and that..look at my sister has this and that..)
- Islam says study and gain beneficial knowledge. (other women will only gain knowledge (gossiping), watching useless tv-shows)
- Islam says keep yourself pretty for your husband. (other women after birth will stay fat, while it is MANDATORY for a woman to make herself beautiful for her husband..losing weight is also part of it.)
- Islam says 1/3 food, 1/3 water, 1/3 air (other women will keep on stuffing themselves with food and drinks..becoming fat.)
- Islam says do not commit excess in everything. (other women will waste food, water, money, talk too much and useless talk, be ungrateful)
- Islam says listen to your husband unless it is haram. (other women will head their own way, go outside when it is dark, have male "friends", etc.)
- Islam says be good to your children and give them a good upbringing. (other women will treat their kids bad, hit them, give them bad role model of themselves)
and MUCH MUCH MUCH MORE..

Islam says to keep pretty for your husband..... and women get fat after birth? Perhaps they're too tired to WORK out to keep pretty for a husband if they have to take care of children and the house.

 

[Simple_Person]

Re: The "women" debate

Bhabha is an unmarried woman. She doesn't know what married life is except from the talks of unhappy women. She just doesn't want to get married and be expected to clean because she hates cleaning, and on top of that she despises men who have more than one wife even though it's clearly allowed in Islam. I think this is what the conversation here is summing up. Generalizing all men to be a certain way and picking and choosing what you like from the religion doesn't make sense. Like you can't just say "oh wives should have helpers and their men should help them because this is from the sunnah" and then speak badly about men who have multiple wives. There's a lot of double standards. If you don't like cleaning or household work, that's your issue. If you don't like the idea of multiple wives, that's your shortcoming. But many women can clean, cook, go to work, take care of their children and do not want a stranger around their house doing the things that they can do themselves. On top of that they are educated and do not feel restricted in their daily lives to do what they want. There are also women who are absolutely content being cowives. Serving others brings about a sense of pride and joy that you can't get from receiving. If a woman is complaining to you about the private affairs between her and her husband then that is a woman with a loose tongue. No one is forced to get married and furthermore no one is forced to get married to a man who prefers coming home to a clean home and cooked food. It would be nice to see more men knowing how to cook, clean, etc. but you can't pout and cry if you marry someone who doesn't do these after the fact. However, there's no doubt in my mind that if a wife needed help with anything the husband wouldn't hesitate to help her himself or bring help. Also, many cultures are quite family oriented, so unless the wife lives far away from her family, there are 20 members to come and help whenever necessary and theres no need to have a maid.

If this all is the case, she has even a BIGGER problem. Because then she logically, rationally and reasonably has NOT concluded that Islam indeed is the truth. I and many (brothers & sisters) like me have indeed concluded based on logic, rationality and reason that Islam is the truth and THE ONLY truth. If something does not make sense, it is either i lack understanding or it is missing context/complete story.

So it also "confirms" in one of my previous comments that she has an issue of the heart.

 

[Bhabha]

Re: The "women" debate

Bhabha is an unmarried woman. She doesn't know what married life is except from the talks of unhappy women. She just doesn't want to get married and be expected to clean because she hates cleaning, and on top of that she despises men who have more than one wife even though it's clearly allowed in Islam. I think this is what the conversation here is summing up. Generalizing all men to be a certain way and picking and choosing what you like from the religion doesn't make sense. Like you can't just say "oh wives should have helpers and their men should help them because this is from the sunnah" and then speak badly about men who have multiple wives. There's a lot of double standards. If you don't like cleaning or household work, that's your issue. If you don't like the idea of multiple wives, that's your shortcoming. But many women can clean, cook, go to work, take care of their children and do not want a stranger around their house doing the things that they can do themselves. On top of that they are educated and do not feel restricted in their daily lives to do what they want. There are also women who are absolutely content being cowives. Serving others brings about a sense of pride and joy that you can't get from receiving. If a woman is complaining to you about the private affairs between her and her husband then that is a woman with a loose tongue. No one is forced to get married and furthermore no one is forced to get married to a man who prefers coming home to a clean home and cooked food. It would be nice to see more men knowing how to cook, clean, etc. but you can't pout and cry if you marry someone who doesn't do these after the fact. However, there's no doubt in my mind that if a wife needed help with anything the husband wouldn't hesitate to help her himself or bring help. Also, many cultures are quite family oriented, so unless the wife lives far away from her family, there are 20 members to come and help whenever necessary and theres no need to have a maid.

You're right, I don't want to get married because I don't see the necessity of it. If and when Allah sends someone my way to whom I feel a connection then perhaps, other than that no thanks. I also don't have the luxury of having Muslim parents who will help you choose a spouse or be involved in the process and a community who could care less what kind of man I marry as long as I get married.

Not saying all communities are like that, but the one in my city is like that and I don't have a necessity of finding a spouse who is just "anyone" for marriage, what for? So since I don't talk with guys, don't date and I am not frantically looking to get married to get out of a 'convert' situation. Alhamdellah my parents don't find me a burden because I am Muslim and they love me, wouldn't want me to move out.

I am financially independent, yet I live with my parents at home and are loved by my family. The only reason I'd want to get married is to have a child with whom I can share my life with, educate and love. But if I can adopt a child and provide someone a home and love, that would also suffice.

- - - Updated - - -

Bhabha is an unmarried woman. She doesn't know what married life is except from the talks of unhappy women. She just doesn't want to get married and be expected to clean because she hates cleaning, and on top of that she despises men who have more than one wife even though it's clearly allowed in Islam. I think this is what the conversation here is summing up. Generalizing all men to be a certain way and picking and choosing what you like from the religion doesn't make sense. Like you can't just say "oh wives should have helpers and their men should help them because this is from the sunnah" and then speak badly about men who have multiple wives. There's a lot of double standards. If you don't like cleaning or household work, that's your issue. If you don't like the idea of multiple wives, that's your shortcoming. But many women can clean, cook, go to work, take care of their children and do not want a stranger around their house doing the things that they can do themselves. On top of that they are educated and do not feel restricted in their daily lives to do what they want. There are also women who are absolutely content being cowives. Serving others brings about a sense of pride and joy that you can't get from receiving. If a woman is complaining to you about the private affairs between her and her husband then that is a woman with a loose tongue. No one is forced to get married and furthermore no one is forced to get married to a man who prefers coming home to a clean home and cooked food. It would be nice to see more men knowing how to cook, clean, etc. but you can't pout and cry if you marry someone who doesn't do these after the fact. However, there's no doubt in my mind that if a wife needed help with anything the husband wouldn't hesitate to help her himself or bring help. Also, many cultures are quite family oriented, so unless the wife lives far away from her family, there are 20 members to come and help whenever necessary and theres no need to have a maid.

You're right, I don't want to get married because I don't see the necessity of it. If and when Allah sends someone my way to whom I feel a connection then perhaps, other than that no thanks. I also don't have the luxury of having Muslim parents who will help you choose a spouse or be involved in the process and a community who could care less what kind of man I marry as long as I get married.

Not saying all communities are like that, but the one in my city is like that and I don't have a necessity of finding a spouse who is just "anyone" for marriage, what for? So since I don't talk with guys, don't date and I am not frantically looking to get married to get out of a 'convert' situation. Alhamdellah my parents don't find me a burden because I am Muslim and they love me, wouldn't want me to move out.

I am financially independent, yet I live with my parents at home and are loved by my family. The only reason I'd want to get married is to have a child with whom I can share my life with, educate and love. But if I can adopt a child and provide someone a home and love, that would also suffice.

- - - Updated - - -

If this all is the case, she has even a BIGGER problem. Because then she logically, rationally and reasonably has NOT concluded that Islam indeed is the truth. I and many (brothers & sisters) like me have indeed concluded based on logic, rationality and reason that Islam is the truth and THE ONLY truth. If something does not make sense, it is either i lack understanding or it is missing context/complete story.

So it also "confirms" in one of my previous comments that she has an issue of the heart.

When did I say Islam is not the truth? Are you required to get married? If you're not married, do you go to hell? Am I supposed to just go and get married to whomever? No. I don't want to get married, I haven't found someone to get married to and I'm not gong to bother wasting my time looking for a spouse, he will come or he will not come and that is in the hands of Allah.

Why get married if I don't need? ^o)

 

[Simple_Person]

Re: The "women" debate

Islam says to keep pretty for your husband..... and women get fat after birth? Perhaps they're too tired to WORK out to keep pretty for a husband if they have to take care of children and the house.

This shows how shallow minded you are when it comes to Islam i guess.

Let me give you a clear picture. I marry a wonderful wife that has put her deen on #1 like me. After she has given birth i have read about PTSD as Islam has made mandatory to gain knowledge. When she gives birth i take up on me to take more care of the baby, cleaning the diapers, feeding the bottle, cleaning the house (already was at it when she was pregnant). Giving her the time to recover and also work out for her self imagine and self confidence.

Slowly after some time she loses weight, good for her self image and off course also for me. She slowly takes helps out also more in the household etc. etc.

What is wrong with this picture? OOOOH i know..you thought men like me do not exist =_=!. Well i can guarantee you that there are brothers 1000x better than me in those things and better mentality than me. You are soo pessimistic about life..which is ALSO forbidden to be like that for Muslims.

 

[Bhabha]

Re: The "women" debate

This shows how shallow minded you are when it comes to Islam i guess.

Let me give you a clear picture. I marry a wonderful wife that has put her deen on #1 like me. After she has given birth i have read about PTSD as Islam has made mandatory to gain knowledge. When she gives birth i take up on me to take more care of the baby, cleaning the diapers, feeding the bottle, cleaning the house (already was at it when she was pregnant). Giving her the time to recover and also work out for her self imagine and self confidence.

Slowly after some time she loses weight, good for her self image and off course also for me. She slowly takes helps out also more in the household etc. etc.

What is wrong with this picture? OOOOH i know..you thought men like me do not exist =_=!. Well i can guarantee you that there are brothers 1000x better than me in those things and better mentality than me. You are soo pessimistic about life..which is ALSO forbidden to be like that for Muslims.

I'm not shallow minded when it comes to Islam. How Muslims behave and what Islam says are two different things.

Good for you that you are one of those men who do follow Islam and the teachings of the Prophet.

I'm not pessimistic about life, I have often been told I am TOO optimistic about life. Then again, you do not know me, so I don't assume you will know my take in life

 

[*charisma*]

Re: The "women" debate

You're right, I don't want to get married because I don't see the necessity of it. If and when Allah sends someone my way to whom I feel a connection then perhaps, other than that no thanks. I also don't have the luxury of having Muslim parents who will help you choose a spouse or be involved in the process and a community who could care less what kind of man I marry as long as I get married.

Not saying all communities are like that, but the one in my city is like that and I don't have a necessity of finding a spouse who is just "anyone" for marriage, what for? So since I don't talk with guys, don't date and I am not frantically looking to get married to get out of a 'convert' situation. Alhamdellah my parents don't find me a burden because I am Muslim and they love me, wouldn't want me to move out.

I am financially independent, yet I live with my parents at home and are loved by my family. The only reason I'd want to get married is to have a child with whom I can share my life with, educate and love. But if I can adopt a child and provide someone a home and love, that would also suffice.

Great! Now that we've got that all settled, what's the point of this topic? Because you're bouncing from one topic to the next. You're not married nor interested nor experienced in it, and yet your issues lie with married couples and men who seem to have mostly disagreed with your views thus far due to huge generalizations or your very limited experiences. WHy are you complaining about private issues that do not apply to you?

 

[Bhabha]

Re: The "women" debate

Great! Now that we've got that all settled, what's the point of this topic? Because you're bouncing from one topic to the next. You're not married nor interested nor experienced in it, and yet your issues lie with married couples and men who seem to have mostly disagreed with your views thus far due to huge generalizations or your very limited experiences. WHy are you complaining about private issues that do not apply to you?

Wait.

Issues have to APPLY to me, for me to care about it? Or for me to discuss it? ^o)

 

[*charisma*]

Re: The "women" debate

Wait.

Issues have to APPLY to me, for me to care about it? Or for me to discuss it? ^o)

Yes when it concerns **private** issues. If a woman's husband wants her to clean, if a wife is unhappy being a co-wife, whatever their issues are, that is their private issues and you will never know the full story or if what is made into an issue is actually an issue at all.

Also you're not discussing any specific issue but rather pushing very basic generalizations and hearsay. So if you are limited, or rather, nonexistant, in your experiences when it comes to marital affairs, why do you oppose the views of those who actually are much more experienced than you are??