The "women" debate

[Simple_Person]

Re: The "women" debate

The women of today are RUBBISH. Let me explain further so everybody can understand why i am saying what i am saying.

The question to ask is not whether the man has the right to do this and and the woman has the right to do that. I can have a right to have certain things, but i have to ask the question is that good for me? Islam as a whole EXACTLY surrounds itself based on this philosophical idea. Free will. You are free to do what EVER you want. You want to kill your own mother?, go a head, nobody is stopping you. You want to rob a bank? Go ahead..you have free will. You want to help the people in need? Go ahead..

When you enter Islam, is not because you are "forced", rather you CHOOSE to give up this free will. Why? You have logically, rationally and reasonably concluded that the Islamic way of life, is better for you. It is to simplify it saying, coffee with 2 tea spoons of sugar is the BEST way to have your coffee. Thus you abstain from all other ways to drink your coffee. In other words you give up your free will and you submit to having your coffee exactly like how it is prescribed.

Now off course people will say to have such a way of life, that is living like a "robot" and not being "unique". The approach is not really about being unique or not unique, rather the perspective rather is you have logically, rationally and reasonably concluded that the Islamic way of life is the BEST way to live your life. So you live by that way.

The women of today have become rather resentful towards men. Because in the past and even today many men look down on women as the "weaker" gender, they are trying to "proof" themselves otherwise. However by "proving" themselves otherwise, they are rather going against the "giving up of their free will"-(Islamic way of life). What am i talking about?

Allah has made men and women certain way. Allah has given certain abilities to men and certain abilities to women, Allah has also given certain desires to men and certain desires to women. By wanting to "proof" themselves they are trying to neglect THEIR desires ALL to take "revenge" on men. If we talk about being "retarded" (yes insult), that is being retarded to the core. Why? When one neglects their own desires they will feel the consequences later on.

So what "desires" am i talking about when for example talking about women? The desire of WANTING children. The desire of WANTING to have loving husband that gives YOU attention and says "i love you" when he sees you. The desire to walk with your little girl/boy and enjoying all her/his habits. Being your own sunshine in your life. These a more of these desires by neglecting them, you are making your life miserable. Who says you HAVE to work? Islam does not say you may not work or you must work. Islam leaves this option open for you. However how stupid are you to arrogantly through away your life because you look at OTHER ..yes you look at others and they say "i have a job as a woman and i have my own money". That woman is NOT telling you what she does not have. She does not say to you, if it was up to me i would without a doubt replace everything i have with a family of my own. Too much pride and dishonesty.

The feminists of today are experiencing exactly that. Men are leaving those feminists on the side and try to have nothing to do with them. Because their mentality is killing themselves from within.

So what is my advice? Allah has made you certain way. Go PONDER what Allah wants for you. He knows you better than you know yourself. Submit to His way of life and you will find happiness and tranquility. If you do not go and ponder to find what it is how Allah has made you, i can GUARANTEE you, you will be miserable later on. Because at the end, when we do not practice according to our fitrah, depression is the outcome.

When you do have found the way Allah has made clear for you what path you need to walk on, PONDER about WHY that path is good for you. Be convinced of it and if somebody tries to argue against your argument, you have a logical, rational and reasonable argument that does not break. This rather helps you with building up your imaan. When you are not married yet and have concluded the path Allah has made clear for you, we know in Islam how to choose our spouse. So follow that path i beg of you for you OWN happiness not mine. I will die before your or after you and maybe never have known you by face or met you in person.

Stop following your heart, rather use your brain for once.

 

[Bhabha]

Re: The "women" debate

LOL! Ok, well the truth makes people very uncomfortable when they are living a lie. I will still come back and clarify some misunderstandings that Bhabha clearly has for the benefit of anyone else reading this information. insha'Allah.

Lol. The truth does indeed make one uncomfortable, and in this I am referring to you.

Read up on feminism, then again it takes quite a lot of different contexts and arguments in a graduate seminar to unravel the mysteries of this 'feminism' you've painted as a singular item.
There are many, many many forms of feminism.

And if advocating for women to be respected, to be given their rights, to be assisted with their everyday plights sounds like 'feminist' regurgitation to you, then you are one of those who sees a woman in need of assistance and would turn her back on her? "Feminism" is just a word shouted at women women who talk about the injustices made to women. To belittle their grievances that they wish to address and to make them sound hysterical.

Similarly when a Muslim wants to address grievances made to Muslims by speaking out politically, aren't they also called radicals? extremists? I've worked on so many campaigns addressing security policies and that attack Muslims and Muslim societies, in particular in the United States / Canada. Addressing problems of context, wording to governments so that Muslims are not targeted in security policies. If you live in the United Kingdom, you know about the security policies in force that make it possible to have searches done on Muslim communities for the sake of "safety";

Ironically, in these circumstances a "Muslim" speaking on behalf of their Muslim communities is seen as an illegitimate source because they come from that community. A non-Muslim, arguing and striving to end the words in security policies that target Muslim communities is seen as more legitimate because they do not come from that community. A couple of years after slavery had engulfed Europe, North America, South America, etc., students in Universities that were "BLACK" were not allowed to argue against the problems brought on by slavery, or the context of slavery itself because they belonged to that community. It was seen as 'illegitimate'. Similarly, vegans who do not wish to consume meat, harm animals, etc., whenever they offer up alternatives to meat consumption, have cooking shows that provide alternatives for people interested in a vegan diet, are seen as radicals and extremists, while the same kind of communication by someone who eats meat and decides to have a 'clean' breakfast of fruits and vegetables is painted differently.

I would suggest you be careful with the way you frame things and the narratives you embed your arguments with.

Anddddd. I'm at work right now, so my answers might be brief

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LOL! Ok, well the truth makes people very uncomfortable when they are living a lie. I will still come back and clarify some misunderstandings that Bhabha clearly has for the benefit of anyone else reading this information. insha'Allah.

Lol. The truth does indeed make one uncomfortable, and in this I am referring to you.

Read up on feminism, then again it takes quite a lot of different contexts and arguments in a graduate seminar to unravel the mysteries of this 'feminism' you've painted as a singular item.
There are many, many many forms of feminism.

And if advocating for women to be respected, to be given their rights, to be assisted with their everyday plights sounds like 'feminist' regurgitation to you, then you are one of those who sees a woman in need of assistance and would turn her back on her? "Feminism" is just a word shouted at women women who talk about the injustices made to women. To belittle their grievances that they wish to address and to make them sound hysterical.

Similarly when a Muslim wants to address grievances made to Muslims by speaking out politically, aren't they also called radicals? extremists? I've worked on so many campaigns addressing security policies and that attack Muslims and Muslim societies, in particular in the United States / Canada. Addressing problems of context, wording to governments so that Muslims are not targeted in security policies. If you live in the United Kingdom, you know about the security policies in force that make it possible to have searches done on Muslim communities for the sake of "safety";

Ironically, in these circumstances a "Muslim" speaking on behalf of their Muslim communities is seen as an illegitimate source because they come from that community. A non-Muslim, arguing and striving to end the words in security policies that target Muslim communities is seen as more legitimate because they do not come from that community. A couple of years after slavery had engulfed Europe, North America, South America, etc., students in Universities that were "BLACK" were not allowed to argue against the problems brought on by slavery, or the context of slavery itself because they belonged to that community. It was seen as 'illegitimate'. Similarly, vegans who do not wish to consume meat, harm animals, etc., whenever they offer up alternatives to meat consumption, have cooking shows that provide alternatives for people interested in a vegan diet, are seen as radicals and extremists, while the same kind of communication by someone who eats meat and decides to have a 'clean' breakfast of fruits and vegetables is painted differently.

I would suggest you be careful with the way you frame things and the narratives you embed your arguments with.

Anddddd. I'm at work right now, so my answers might be brief

 

[Umm♥Layth]

Re: The "women" debate

Lol. The truth does indeed make one uncomfortable, and in this I am referring to you.

I'm not the one running away and blocking people sis I can talk about this all day and have no issues with it. Other people's perspectives don't make me uncomfortable because I have no agenda here. People have the right to believe what they will and it isn't my place to shove my view down somebody's throat. I'm here to gather information and share what I have to offer. :statisfie

I have actually studied feminism in all of its forms and have a 7 year project going on. I won't be done for another few years though, slow process, lots and lots of reading. One day, insha'Allah. I have bigger fish to fry in the process. You have no idea what I mean when I use the word "feminism" and I suggest you stop to assume the worst in people.

You are now basically implying I'm somehow extreme in my views when it couldn't be further from the truth lol. I would never turn a woman down when she needs help, in fact, I've dedicated my life to helping women so please take a seat.

You are not advocating anything, you are simply complaining about the same exact things every single woman who doesn't understand herself (and typically doesn't have any children or has been married) complains about. It is nothing new and when I said in my previous post that women in 50/50 households are actually more unhappy than the "traditional" single income household was another subject, this is where I was going.

I won't respond to your personal attacks, but I will still be back to clarify your misconceptions to others. It isn't an easy subject, it is soooo very delicate and detailed that it has taken me so many years of careful study to gather the understanding I have today.

BBL

 

[Bhabha]

Re: The "women" debate

I'm not the one running away and blocking people sis I can talk about this all day and have no issues with it. Other people's perspectives don't make me uncomfortable because I have no agenda here. People have the right to believe what they will and it isn't my place to shove my view down somebody's throat. I'm here to gather information and share what I have to offer. :statisfie

I have actually studied feminism in all of its forms and have a 7 year project going on. I won't be done for another few years though, slow process, lots and lots of reading. One day, insha'Allah. I have bigger fish to fry in the process. You have no idea what I mean when I use the word "feminism" and I suggest you stop to assume the worst in people.

You are now basically implying I'm somehow extreme in my views when it couldn't be further from the truth lol. I would never turn a woman down when she needs help, in fact, I've dedicated my life to helping women so please take a seat.

You are not advocating anything, you are simply complaining about the same exact things every single woman who doesn't understand herself (and typically doesn't have any children or has been married) complains about. It is nothing new and when I said in my previous post that women in 50/50 households are actually more unhappy than the "traditional" single income household was another subject, this is where I was going.

I won't respond to your personal attacks, but I will still be back to clarify your misconceptions to others. It isn't an easy subject, it is soooo very delicate and detailed that it has taken me so many years of careful study to gather the understanding I have today.

BBL

So then I am assuming you have a PhD or at least a Masters in the subject to tell me otherwise?

 

[Umm♥Layth]

Re: The "women" debate

So then I am assuming you have a PhD or at least a Masters in the subject to tell me otherwise?

Enough with the smartass responses. I don't take that kind of bait

What's funny is that I was one of those women nobody wanted to help. Allah forbid you are ever put in a position where you are on the street with a kid, after being beaten, kicked while pregnant and told you are a worthless piece of ---- as well as denied education. Allah forbid you ever have to worry about what you are going to feed your child and how you are going to rebuild your life.

It's amazing that people who have never experienced real poverty, abuse or any real injustice sure have alot to say about it and have very strong opinions on those matters. It's all talk though. Those who have actually suffered and have risen above without support don't do so much talking and arguing. They simply do.

What do you ACTUALLY do for women besides just talk and complain? Please don't answer that. It's a rhetorical question.

 

[Bhabha]

Re: The "women" debate

Enough with the smartass responses. I don't take that kind of bait

What's funny is that I was one of those women nobody wanted to help. Allah forbid you are ever put in a position where you are on the street with a kid, after being beaten, kicked while pregnant and told you are a worthless piece of ---- as well as denied education. Allah forbid you ever have to worry about what you are going to feed your child and how you are going to rebuild your life.

It's amazing that people who have never experienced real poverty, abuse or any real injustice sure have alot to say about it and have very strong opinions on those matters. It's all talk though. Those who have actually suffered and have risen above without support don't do so much talking and arguing. They simply do.

What do you ACTUALLY do for women besides just talk and complain? Please don't answer that. It's a rhetorical question.

Lol. You do not know my life, just because I don't complain, and I'm not ever going to complain about my life.

Who put you on the streets? beat you? kicked you while pregnant and told you, you were a worthless person, as well as denied education to?

Have you ever had to run away from bullets?

Flee a country in fear of persecution?

Have you ever been sold in sexual slavery?

Please tell me if you've ever been in that kind of situation.

Millions and I mean millions of women face abuse every single day. How does a society rectify the individual circumstances that ail different women? Structures of support and organizations that seek to provide assistance and help to women who face horrible situations.

You say that those who have actually suffered and have risen about without support, don't do much talking and arguing. But here you are, complaining about your situations and the previous circumstances that you faced. Why do you talk then and share information about your suffering?

I don't complain about the life Allah has given me. Do you?

 

[anatolian]

Re: The "women" debate

(smile) You have not answered the question of "who or what".

Also, is it the work itself that is necessarily being disgraced? If I am a daycare worker, do I not have some value? And am I working harder than a mother with her own children?

Ok the answer is men, at least some men..It doesnt neccesarily mean the work itself has no value in reality. People can invent their own realities and make other people believe in them for personal gain. Those works can be paid with a great amount of money in some particular parts of the World and have a value in the eyes of people (since the money is the value in a capitalist society but thats itself is another topic to discuss) but in a family that might be regarded as a simple woethless work by the husband to lower the position of the wife to control her easier. It doesnt have to have a logic at all. If you are believed to feel that way, you have already given the permision to be oppressed. Of course not all men are like that but some are. Is it more clear now?

 

[Simple_Person]

Re: The "women" debate

Enough with the smartass responses. I don't take that kind of bait

What's funny is that I was one of those women nobody wanted to help. Allah forbid you are ever put in a position where you are on the street with a kid, after being beaten, kicked while pregnant and told you are a worthless piece of ---- as well as denied education. Allah forbid you ever have to worry about what you are going to feed your child and how you are going to rebuild your life.

It's amazing that people who have never experienced real poverty, abuse or any real injustice sure have alot to say about it and have very strong opinions on those matters. It's all talk though. Those who have actually suffered and have risen above without support don't do so much talking and arguing. They simply do.

What do you ACTUALLY do for women besides just talk and complain? Please don't answer that. It's a rhetorical question.

As salamu alaykum wa rahmatullah,

Sister can you do something for the sake of Allah?..please STOP the "conversation" with that sister.

First sheytan loves such discussions, where emotions(anger/hate) start to ignite. That being said, also please know that understanding comes from Allah, NOT from you. You have done your best and it is EVEN a mercy from Allah to that sister that you gave your perspective (which i agree with based on logic, rationality and reason). However that sister is not really here to have a dialogue, the problem is her heart just by reading her comments. I have seen a lot of videos and read or heard stories how many women of today look down at men who are equal victims of fights in relationships, however feminists just laugh at such male victims.

To you sister @Bhabha, ask yourself could it be maybe..JUST MAYBE..that sister Umm♥Layth says something that is indeed true and you are wrong. I know you can find 1000 excuses that you are right and that sister is wrong. However the wise person rather searches for the excuse why that sister is right and you might be wrong. When doing exactly this, you might learn more. How can you find this excuse that she indeed might be right? Start listening. By listening one will ask question to want to understand it.

You will only benefit from this believe me. A human being can only surpass previous people by listening to their experience and wisdom, thus not making exactly the same mistakes. Why do you think Allah continuously talks about PREVIOUS people? So we do NOT make the same mistakes as it was clear what happened to them in the end.

 

[anatolian]

In one of my classes, we were discussing Muslim women of the Ottoman Empire, before the spread of Europeans into the Ottoman Empire. My professor made note that it is historically incorrect to assume that women have been at the home doing household duties without working. This is a European fallacy BTW. As Europeans were the most oppressive towards their womenfolk and women were neither allowed to have money gained from working or to hold their own property.

Women in the ottoman periods had their own businesses and were very wealthy of their own without their husbands money.

So it is incorrect to stipulate that women's place has been in the household historically, only in some cultures ( in this case I say mostly European cultures ) as women in the time of the Prophet fought alongside him and Khadijah was a very successful business woman.

Well dont think so..Women as a whole didnt have such a position in the Ottoman period also. That may apply to rich women who already had a privilage coming from family before the marriage but not ordinary women. But of course they did some works to contribute the family.

 

[M.I.A.]

Re: The "women" debate

You know..

Once upon a time i thought you had to pay for things with money.

But now i am forever fearful of what this dunya costs.


..if you dont see it that way then do as you please.

But yeah, if you can teach your kids to help around the house regardless of gender.. its probably not a bad thing.

Or persuing education and careers.

That can mean whatever you want it to really.

..its part of living in our own little bubbles that is life.

Its highly dependant on what you want and how "society" accepts your contribution..

..society or allah swt.

What you make of the world or what the world makes of you.

 

[Umm♥Layth]

Re: The "women" debate

Lol. You do not know my life, just because I don't complain, and I'm not ever going to complain about my life.

Who put you on the streets? beat you? kicked you while pregnant and told you, you were a worthless person, as well as denied education to?

Have you ever had to run away from bullets?

Flee a country in fear of persecution?

Have you ever been sold in sexual slavery?

Please tell me if you've ever been in that kind of situation.

Millions and I mean millions of women face abuse every single day. How does a society rectify the individual circumstances that ail different women? Structures of support and organizations that seek to provide assistance and help to women who face horrible situations.

You say that those who have actually suffered and have risen about without support, don't do much talking and arguing. But here you are, complaining about your situations and the previous circumstances that you faced. Why do you talk then and share information about your suffering?

I don't complain about the life Allah has given me. Do you?

I'm actually letting you know that you are speaking to someone with first hand experience on the matters regarding women, abuse and women's rights being violated. I don't have a reason to complain in all honesty and my experiences are something I'm quite grateful for at this stage in my life. I wouldn't be where I am today had I not lived what I did so Alhamdullilah. The purpose of sharing a life story or experience with another person is to connect and find a mutual understanding of sorts.

By definition, a complaint is a statement made to communicate to another that a situation is unsatisfactory or unacceptable. So far, this is what you have done the entire time you've been posting about this subject. Which is why I asked, what are you actually doing?

I said the same exact thing to you earlier. You don't know my life. So for you to assume that I'm somehow extreme or radical in my views on feminism and that your wrongful assumption somehow implies that I would turn a woman away, is truly quite unfair. I work quite hard and have given countless hours of my time to women, even if its just to listen.

I'm not here to argue with you actually, but you keep throwing insults, assumptions and accusations my way when I'm merely trying to have a discussion and set some misunderstandings right.

Anyway, I'm done with the back and forth. When I have some extra time, I'll come and add my two cents in regards to the actual issues on hand. Looks like you have other posts to respond to

Have a good day sis!

 

[Bhabha]

Re: The "women" debate

As salamu alaykum wa rahmatullah,

Sister can you do something for the sake of Allah?..please STOP the "conversation" with that sister.

First sheytan loves such discussions, where emotions(anger/hate) start to ignite. That being said, also please know that understanding comes from Allah, NOT from you. You have done your best and it is EVEN a mercy from Allah to that sister that you gave your perspective (which i agree with based on logic, rationality and reason). However that sister is not really here to have a dialogue, the problem is her heart just by reading her comments. I have seen a lot of videos and read or heard stories how many women of today look down at men who are equal victims of fights in relationships, however feminists just laugh at such male victims.

To you sister @Bhabha, ask yourself could it be maybe..JUST MAYBE..that sister Umm♥Layth says something that is indeed true and you are wrong. I know you can find 1000 excuses that you are right and that sister is wrong. However the wise person rather searches for the excuse why that sister is right and you might be wrong. When doing exactly this, you might learn more. How can you find this excuse that she indeed might be right? Start listening. By listening one will ask question to want to understand it.

You will only benefit from this believe me. A human being can only surpass previous people by listening to their experience and wisdom, thus not making exactly the same mistakes. Why do you think Allah continuously talks about PREVIOUS people? So we do NOT make the same mistakes as it was clear what happened to them in the end.

Omg....

I am not looking down on men who are equal victims of fights in their relationships. And as I said to someone in this thread, using the word "feminist" is to make someone who is trying to alleviate women's problems as hysterical and illogical. I never said that men are not victims and I did not laugh at men who have been victims. I understand both men and women are victimized, but I was not speaking at all about victimization, I was speaking about fairness in the distribution of work in the house.

It is unfair for women to be given the only burden of doing housework, it is both and women who should be doing this. I never once spoke about 'victim' here or 'victim' there, that is your lens on which you twisted my discussion. The only time I might have ever mentioned is on the occasion that women have to do all of the housework and the husband does not once ever provide them with financial recompense where they can choose to spend money on themselves, to save it, invest it., etc. Equally the same I have also seen on situations where women take everything that the man had and he is left with nothing. There are opposites on both ends that we need to mediate away from and enter a balance, such that neither party enters into disagreement.

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As salamu alaykum wa rahmatullah,

Sister can you do something for the sake of Allah?..please STOP the "conversation" with that sister.

First sheytan loves such discussions, where emotions(anger/hate) start to ignite. That being said, also please know that understanding comes from Allah, NOT from you. You have done your best and it is EVEN a mercy from Allah to that sister that you gave your perspective (which i agree with based on logic, rationality and reason). However that sister is not really here to have a dialogue, the problem is her heart just by reading her comments. I have seen a lot of videos and read or heard stories how many women of today look down at men who are equal victims of fights in relationships, however feminists just laugh at such male victims.

To you sister @Bhabha, ask yourself could it be maybe..JUST MAYBE..that sister Umm♥Layth says something that is indeed true and you are wrong. I know you can find 1000 excuses that you are right and that sister is wrong. However the wise person rather searches for the excuse why that sister is right and you might be wrong. When doing exactly this, you might learn more. How can you find this excuse that she indeed might be right? Start listening. By listening one will ask question to want to understand it.

You will only benefit from this believe me. A human being can only surpass previous people by listening to their experience and wisdom, thus not making exactly the same mistakes. Why do you think Allah continuously talks about PREVIOUS people? So we do NOT make the same mistakes as it was clear what happened to them in the end.

Omg....

I am not looking down on men who are equal victims of fights in their relationships. And as I said to someone in this thread, using the word "feminist" is to make someone who is trying to alleviate women's problems as hysterical and illogical. I never said that men are not victims and I did not laugh at men who have been victims. I understand both men and women are victimized, but I was not speaking at all about victimization, I was speaking about fairness in the distribution of work in the house.

It is unfair for women to be given the only burden of doing housework, it is both and women who should be doing this. I never once spoke about 'victim' here or 'victim' there, that is your lens on which you twisted my discussion. The only time I might have ever mentioned is on the occasion that women have to do all of the housework and the husband does not once ever provide them with financial recompense where they can choose to spend money on themselves, to save it, invest it., etc. Equally the same I have also seen on situations where women take everything that the man had and he is left with nothing. There are opposites on both ends that we need to mediate away from and enter a balance, such that neither party enters into disagreement.

 

['Abd-al Latif]

Hence why I told you not to make assumptions, as in don't pull words out of context or derive your own meaning from something that I am saying.

However, let's back up a little and something you said is quite interesting.

You're saying I am advocating for equality because I am critiquing men who restrict women to specific roles within society. I never once shouted equality and never once advocated for it, I was merely point out that women and men should not be relegated to do specific duties and that women should not be so consumed to be doing chores that are painted as their territory. I also said that both women AND men should be doing household chores and that men should be helping women.

You said in specific words "equality"; therefore assuming in some way or shape that there is inequality at presence that needs to be addressed. I never said that in any moment, I merely talked about assisting women as it is unfair to burden ANYONE (WOMEN or MAN) with the amount of work required to take care of a household. There's cleaning, there's cooking, there's taking care of a child. These are three positions that are often times filled by three different people, which is why people enjoy going to restaurants, they don't have to 1) cook and they don't have to 2) clean. In my arguments, I used women in the time of the Prophet to exemplify that women have worked successfully and have joined men in battle, OUTSIDE of the home. I should also remind you that the Prophet helped clean the house and if there was nothing cooked, he ate dates, thereby never forcing or compelling his wives to do cleaning OR cooking for him.

So please tell me how I am clearly advocating for an equality that is already present in Islam? I strongly believe there is equality in Islam, but I do not believe it is applied. I converted for Islam, not for the examples set by Muslims. Those are entirely and completely different things. As someone here said that Islam and PEOPLE (Muslim) are entirely different. Not 100% of Muslims adhere to Islamic teachings, so if I sound like I am critiquing in the context of a Muslim society, you know that this is true and have therefore allowed your own observations to declare assumptions on what I have said.

We need to address grievances in our societies in order to ensure we are adhering to Islamic teachings, not defending "cultural" items that cloud.

If there is something again that is misunderstood, please let me know

Your post has been nothing more than a criticism of a lack of - in a nutshell - equality. Whether or not you've used this word is irrelevant as the meaning of your message is clear. This is obvious because you've said how women are 'undervalued' and they're 'left with nothing' after divorce suggesting that it's a man's fault for the life women are given. You then go on to state what the Prophet used to do because you state 'he never compelled his wives to do cleaning or cooking', again taking a swipe at the opposite gender rather than using his sunnah to benefit others.

I'm not sure what I can say to make a positive contribution to this thread as I'm not the same gender as you. God forbid I should give you the impression that my mother has raised me to be anything like the incompetent, thoughtless, inconsiderate, and careless males that you've described in your posts.

 

[Bhabha]

Re: The "women" debate

You know..

Once upon a time i thought you had to pay for things with money.

But now i am forever fearful of what this dunya costs.


..if you dont see it that way then do as you please.

But yeah, if you can teach your kids to help around the house regardless of gender.. its probably not a bad thing.

Or persuing education and careers.

That can mean whatever you want it to really.

..its part of living in our own little bubbles that is life.

Its highly dependant on what you want and how "society" accepts your contribution..

..society or allah swt.

What you make of the world or what the world makes of you.

Pursuing education does not have to be for the sole purpose of making money..... Tell that to anyone pursuing a PhD.. it has nothing to do with financial gain, if that were the case people would be pursuing degrees in finance / accounting / commerce, instead of pursuing degrees in policy structure, environmentalism, etc. etc., money is not the sole purpose of an education OR a career.

It is also to make a contribution that ameliorates the social condition and / OR to make one that alleviates the burden of beings who are targeted by irrational policies. People who go into education go because they love learning and gaining knowledge.

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You know..

Once upon a time i thought you had to pay for things with money.

But now i am forever fearful of what this dunya costs.


..if you dont see it that way then do as you please.

But yeah, if you can teach your kids to help around the house regardless of gender.. its probably not a bad thing.

Or persuing education and careers.

That can mean whatever you want it to really.

..its part of living in our own little bubbles that is life.

Its highly dependant on what you want and how "society" accepts your contribution..

..society or allah swt.

What you make of the world or what the world makes of you.

Pursuing education does not have to be for the sole purpose of making money..... Tell that to anyone pursuing a PhD.. it has nothing to do with financial gain, if that were the case people would be pursuing degrees in finance / accounting / commerce, instead of pursuing degrees in policy structure, environmentalism, etc. etc., money is not the sole purpose of an education OR a career.

It is also to make a contribution that ameliorates the social condition and / OR to make one that alleviates the burden of beings who are targeted by irrational policies. People who go into education go because they love learning and gaining knowledge.

 

['Abd-al Latif]

You are right, there are no rules in sharia that say women have to do all the housework, but the QURAN does clearly say we must obey our husbands (oh no!) and if you (you in general) marry a man that is going to request this of you, then be prepared to accept it. Otherwise, what responsibility does a woman have in a marriage? To sit there and look pretty? A man is obligated to provide and she gets to just suck her thumb? Talk about unfair! lol.

Brilliant. Now THESE are good questions!

 

[Bhabha]

Brilliant. Now THESE are good questions!

Someone who doesn't like doing household duties isn't going to marry a man that will request this of them, let alone command them.
What more than taking care of a child's education? Attending to his needs? Ensuring the finances are well kept? Being kind to her husband? etc.

If she doesn't like doing some things, then how is a husband going to force his wife to do them?

Marriage isn't "do this".. "do that";

Is the husband just supposed to shout "jump on one foot" and the wife is obligated to do that? No. That's not how it works.

A man is obligated to provide his family a place to live, food to eat. He also lives in this place and eats from this food. So he's not just feeding others, he's feeding himself as well and feeding children that his wife had for him. Is a wife supposed to do the household work continually while being pregnant? while nursing? does she get rest? :hmm:

Why is it that you guys / and girls, (you in general) have a problem with providing the wife with assistance through a maid? If you can't afford it and if it's not financially possible, then what's the big deal with just helping her out when you get home? She's supposed to maintain a pristine castle for her husband when he comes back, but she's not entitled to some help? That is unfair. What about her health? How can she spend more time with her children, by encouraging education, manners, etc., if she has to be continually concerned for the condition of the house.

If you can't afford it, or if the thought of hiring a maid suddenly offends you, just say so.. lol don't need to get on this rant about the "obligation" of a wife to clean / cook / care for children, when it's just the thought of having to spend money hiring a maid / nanny that disturbs you.

Simple as that.

"No, some men don't have the money to hire a maid and they don't want to help either, too bad" rather than framing it as "Oh, it's the wife's obligation to her husband's wishes, etc. etc." when we know the problem is from not having the financial backing to provide help to the dear wives.

 

[M.I.A.]

Re: The "women" debate

Pursuing education does not have to be for the sole purpose of making money..... Tell that to anyone pursuing a PhD.. it has nothing to do with financial gain, if that were the case people would be pursuing degrees in finance / accounting / commerce, instead of pursuing degrees in policy structure, environmentalism, etc. etc., money is not the sole purpose of an education OR a career.

It is also to make a contribution that ameliorates the social condition and / OR to make one that alleviates the burden of beings who are targeted by irrational policies. People who go into education go because they love learning and gaining knowledge.

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Pursuing education does not have to be for the sole purpose of making money..... Tell that to anyone pursuing a PhD.. it has nothing to do with financial gain, if that were the case people would be pursuing degrees in finance / accounting / commerce, instead of pursuing degrees in policy structure, environmentalism, etc. etc., money is not the sole purpose of an education OR a career.

It is also to make a contribution that ameliorates the social condition and / OR to make one that alleviates the burden of beings who are targeted by irrational policies. People who go into education go because they love learning and gaining knowledge.

Well.. my naivety would say its easier to be helpful when you have some security behind you.

The other type of change and progress is enforced.

Brilliant. Now THESE are good questions!

..as it is, i wash my own equipment, mop my own floors, clean my own windows at work lol.

...dont tell the wife

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Pursuing education does not have to be for the sole purpose of making money..... Tell that to anyone pursuing a PhD.. it has nothing to do with financial gain, if that were the case people would be pursuing degrees in finance / accounting / commerce, instead of pursuing degrees in policy structure, environmentalism, etc. etc., money is not the sole purpose of an education OR a career.

It is also to make a contribution that ameliorates the social condition and / OR to make one that alleviates the burden of beings who are targeted by irrational policies. People who go into education go because they love learning and gaining knowledge.

- - - Updated - - -



Pursuing education does not have to be for the sole purpose of making money..... Tell that to anyone pursuing a PhD.. it has nothing to do with financial gain, if that were the case people would be pursuing degrees in finance / accounting / commerce, instead of pursuing degrees in policy structure, environmentalism, etc. etc., money is not the sole purpose of an education OR a career.

It is also to make a contribution that ameliorates the social condition and / OR to make one that alleviates the burden of beings who are targeted by irrational policies. People who go into education go because they love learning and gaining knowledge.

Well.. my naivety would say its easier to be helpful when you have some security behind you.

The other type of change and progress is enforced.

Brilliant. Now THESE are good questions!

..as it is, i wash my own equipment, mop my own floors, clean my own windows at work lol.

...dont tell the wife

Its highly dependant on what individuals want out of life.. and those goals tend to change as we grow and gain experience.

But the choices are never independent of each other.

 

[Bhabha]

Re: The "women" debate

Well.. my naivety would say its easier to be helpful when you have some security behind you.

The other type of change and progress is enforced.


..as it is, i wash my own equipment, mop my own floors, clean my own windows at work lol.

...dont tell the wife

- - - Updated - - -



Well.. my naivety would say its easier to be helpful when you have some security behind you.

The other type of change and progress is enforced.


..as it is, i wash my own equipment, mop my own floors, clean my own windows at work lol.

...dont tell the wife

I agree, it is easier to be helpful when there's security behind you. I would also apply this to a marriage situation where the wife has to be at home, if by security you mean financial security. Right?

 

['Abd-al Latif]

Someone who doesn't like doing household duties isn't going to marry a man that will request this of them, let alone command them.
What more than taking care of a child's education? Attending to his needs? Ensuring the finances are well kept? Being kind to her husband? etc.

If she doesn't like doing some things, then how is a husband going to force his wife to do them?

Marriage isn't "do this".. "do that";

Is the husband just supposed to shout "jump on one foot" and the wife is obligated to do that? No. That's not how it works.

A man is obligated to provide his family a place to live, food to eat. He also lives in this place and eats from this food. So he's not just feeding others, he's feeding himself as well and feeding children that his wife had for him. Is a wife supposed to do the household work continually while being pregnant? while nursing? does she get rest? :hmm:

Why is it that you guys / and girls, (you in general) have a problem with providing the wife with assistance through a maid? If you can't afford it and if it's not financially possible, then what's the big deal with just helping her out when you get home? She's supposed to maintain a pristine castle for her husband when he comes back, but she's not entitled to some help? That is unfair. What about her health? How can she spend more time with her children, by encouraging education, manners, etc., if she has to be continually concerned for the condition of the house.

If you can't afford it, or if the thought of hiring a maid suddenly offends you, just say so.. lol don't need to get on this rant about the "obligation" of a wife to clean / cook / care for children, when it's just the thought of having to spend money hiring a maid / nanny that disturbs you.

Simple as that.

"No, some men don't have the money to hire a maid and they don't want to help either, too bad" rather than framing it as "Oh, it's the wife's obligation to her husband's wishes, etc. etc." when we know the problem is from not having the financial backing to provide help to the dear wives.

It's interesting that you're lecturing me on what marriage is and what my responsibilities are while associating men to use words like 'command' and 'force' and 'shout'. Women who kick up such a fuss about being so unproductive while shifting 100% of the responsibility to their partner, and insist their husband provide a maid to be at her beck and call prior to marriage isn't ready to be married.

Marriage is about commitment, sacrifice and effort (notice I'm not mentioning a gender here) and not sitting on your lazy backside expecting someone else to pull your weight.

Seeing as you're so well acquainted with what my responsibilities are as a male, I'd like to know what you believe your responsibilities are as a Muslim wife.

 

[Bhabha]

It's interesting that you're lecturing me on what marriage is and what my responsibilities are while associating men to use words like 'command' and 'force' and 'shout'. Women who kick up such a fuss about being so unproductive while shifting 100% of the responsibility to their partner, and insist their husband provide a maid to be at her beck and call prior to marriage isn't ready to be married.

Marriage is about commitment, sacrifice and effort (notice I'm not mentioning a gender here) and not sitting on your lazy backside expecting someone else to pull your weight.

Sitting on your lazy backside? Lol. Thankfully none of the women in my family have sat in their lazy backside expecting someone else to pull their weights. Each husband has provided a wife with a maid as it is the custom, but they are not lazy women lol. Why are women who have maids provided by loving husbands labelled as lazy?

I suppose it is better to see the woman you supposedly love in pain all day after standing up and cleaning the household? Correct? Or would you rather see the woman you love calm with the energy to read the Quran, to teach the children to read the Quran, excited to see you come home, able to pull of amazing dishes without the stress of having to clean up after the kitchen, yet look pretty and smell amazing for her husband when he rushes home.

My brother who was raised in Canada also thought he'd never get a maid, not because he doesn't want one, but because he doesn't want one intruding in the privacy of his house with his wife. But later found out it is exhausting and it is better to have someone come in and clean, while you can go out and enjoy with your wife, or come home and everything is cleaned, your wife is not tired and you can relax with her and do activities together.

From yours and the other person's conversation, it seems that you all feel that women who have maids must be lazy, for having them. Correct? I am just assuming those arguing against someone having a maid to help in the house (whether or not the wife is working), have never experienced this kind of lifestyle, otherwise you wouldn't be targeting someone who thinks maids are an essential service to have in the house, for the benefit of both husband and wife.