The "women" debate

[STN]

I just want to say even if we get heated in debate, let's not question each other acceptance of religion. All of us are Muslims and difference of opinions doesn't make us less Muslims.

I do agree however with sister *charisma* that unless you are married, you can't form a valid opinion on it. It is like when i was a kid you know, i imagined when i would get a job and have money, i would do this and do that and the funny thing is now that i have a job, i don't feel like doing any of those things like it feels childish now. I loved cars and now that i own one and can get better ones, i hate riding in cars now and wish everything was at walking distance =).

So we bachelors don't really have a say in this, what you hate now you might love it later and vice versa. Depends on your life partner too i guess, if you like her (or him) you would do things to keep her happy.

 

[keiv]

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I'm not devaluing women who choose to stay at home and do housework. I am simply stating that the household duties are not just confined to the "womenfolk" and are not "feminine" work at all. To assume that only women and only feminine women do these household duties is also to devalue the work of women who choose to pursue careers outside of the conventional household, who choose to be scholars, be in politics, and do work that is generally seen and painted as "masculine". We have to get out of the assumptions that women belong in specific places, they don't. Women can choose to pursue whatever it is that they wish to pursue as long as it does not in any way violate Islamic teachings.

Obviously neither women or men should pursue fields where their faith and values are in question, I.e industries that deal with haram.

However it seems that someone in this thread assumes that I have assumptions about them, when the general "you" is meant to be a general sentence aimed at everyone who sees the thread.

I for one will not impose on my girls the duty of cleaning after the house without equally imposing this duty and obligation to my boys. That to me is unfair. I don't want the husband of my girls to treat them as though they just belong in the kitchen or cleaning and I don't want the wives of my sons to be under the assumption that they will be doing the housework. It is a shared responsibility and let's face it, there is no "single" person economy anymore for people to say that it is the man who will earn the income and the wife should be grateful she is not working (if she is at home). I say that if the wife stays at home and does the household duties, it is the husband who should be grateful that she is doing MORE work that is unrecognized and is therefore often undervalued.

I never meant to sound like I was undervaluing a woman who chooses to do work inside the house. Just the opposite, I don't think it is fair that this is just seen as a woman's place and her husbands financial income is seen to be superior and required for sustenance.

Despite this I have seen countless of times that many women who devote themselves to doing things out of love for their husbands, taking care of children, cooking, cleaning, being intimate with them are not held with high regard when the husband decided to seek a second, third or even fourth wife. Is there no shame?

Such as the following scenario:

Husband comes home and the house is not clean, there is not food on the table, etc.

He says to his wife "Why is the house not clean? You were home all day"

Her response "Why aren't we rich? You work all day"

----

As such the issue to consider is that people undervalue the actual work performed by women, who integrate all of the following individual duties: nanny (taking care of the child), maid (cleaning), cook (cooking). Etc. She has to be so many positions that it is unfair to ask this of a woman without providing help. As far as I know and according to sharia, the wife is not obligated to perform all of these tasks. Her only obligation is not to go outside of the house, not to allow strangers in her husbands house and therefore care for his property and to be intimate with her husband. Her husband has to assist her in cooking, cleaning and taking care of the kids, but she is not obligated.

Sometimes they seek divorce and after having been faithful wives, dedicated, etc. Those who did not work are left with literally nothing. They have to go back to their families or seek a second marriage because they do not have the skills, experience or sometimes education (because they chose to stay at home to care for their children) and are therefore unable to provide for themselves.

If I came home from working all day and the house was dirty and there was no food, the first thing I'd ask is "what exactly did you do all day?"

 

[Simple_Person]

Re: The "women" debate

I'm not shallow minded when it comes to Islam. How Muslims behave and what Islam says are two different things.

Good for you that you are one of those men who do follow Islam and the teachings of the Prophet.

I'm not pessimistic about life, I have often been told I am TOO optimistic about life. Then again, you do not know me, so I don't assume you will know my take in life

Being optimistic is also not looking at the bad in life. What I mean by this I'd this whole topic that you were bothered about the whole culture stuff with women being treated like garbage.

As Muslims/strangers we have nothing to do with culture and their habits. Majority of women walking outside is naked but covered. That is their life and I try to abstain as much as possible from going outside if it is not necessary. Or go place where such women are not there. But you do not hear me talk about it. As it has nothing to do with me . When suddenly somebody tries to depict Islamic values as being oppresive against women that is when my mouth starts opening and me using such examples of other women and how men look at them.

So I would advice you..think ..and think deeply about Islamic values and why this and why that.

- - - Updated - - -

When did I say Islam is not the truth? Are you required to get married? If you're not married, do you go to hell? Am I supposed to just go and get married to whomever? No. I don't want to get married, I haven't found someone to get married to and I'm not gong to bother wasting my time looking for a spouse, he will come or he will not come and that is in the hands of Allah.

Why get married if I don't need? ^o)

When you disagree with certain actions in Islam is rather sign of you not really having seeing Islam as the truth and only truth. You must agree to EVERYTHING that Islam says is permissible or not permissible. It doesn't mean that you are able to do the same.

For example I can marry up to 4 wives. However I KNOW myself and my limits. I can with my hands down say I am not able to do justice towards all my wives if I would marry multiple wives. We Kurds have a typical habit of when we love our spouse we love her with all our heart. This is also a big problem as often especially these day Kurdish women abuse this character trait of their husbands as they just LOVE money.

There is a Hadith that Rasullah (saws) has said the ones that do not marry do not belong to my Ummah.

If I loom at my own life still being unmarried. On certain categories I cannot provide a wife what she deserves. So in the mean time I try to fix issue and fix my character/clean my heart while at it. When I have done all of it Allah in'sha'Allah will put a spouse on my path.

You say you have found no spouse to get married but on the other hand you say you do not want to get married.

I have no experience in married life, however I open my eyes and my ears and try to look at others and what they have experienced and ask them certain things etc.

I would LOVE to also choose a life without marriage to be frank because women of today are rubbish by majority. However about the Hadith that Rasullah ( saws ) has said those that do not want to get married do not belong to my Ummah I abstain from heading my own way rather be patient and work my self. And try to find a sister to marry that is not rubbish like the majority.

 

[sister herb]

If I came home from working all day and the house was dirty and there was no food, the first thing I'd ask is "what exactly did you do all day?"

And what if she answers: "I had a day off"? ;D

Unfortunately when being a housewife, you might never has day off.

 

[Simple_Person]

And what if she answers: "I had a day off"? ;D

Unfortunately when being a housewife, you might never has day off.

To be VERY honest, as a guy who cleans, cooks, washing of clothes, does the dishes etc, i have noticed that when you keep up the work, things do not have to take so long to do. When you start have children i guess things could get more chaotic, however children can help you later on with the household. During weekends husband can do half of the household chores. Which means nobody has a day of..in other words everybody is equally tired.

Brothers have to have rather this attitude to WANT to clean. If you already start saying ..i do not want to clean or i hate to clean..well i can tell you that no matter if husband does the household chores for like 80% of everything and has a full time job you will notice that the spouse that does 20% still does a lousy job. Or the other way around.

However to have brothers that want to help their wives, you sisters are at fault..TEACH YOUR BOYS that mentality to want to clean as it is part of the fitrah to be clean.

 

[sister herb]

You are right - we women have to teach all our children equally to make household works. This might be the only way to change old ways to think. Women can also choose such husbands whose opinions of the household works is not so traditional as children learn they opnions from the both parents.

 

[keiv]

And what if she answers: "I had a day off"? ;D

Unfortunately when being a housewife, you might never has day off.

I completely understand that. I, for one, don't believe "cleaning and cooking" to be a feminine thing that the OP says people here are claiming. I come from a fairly large size family and I've seen what my mom has done. At the same time, I've seen what my dad has done as well. Working all day then having to come home and work on the car, yard work, fixing the house, and so on. We were never "rich" because the money went to pay for food, house bills, buying stuff for the kids and so on. Both of them worked just as hard as the other. I never saw my dad tell my mom to go cover for him at work or to make repairs on the house nor have I seen my mom ask my dad to clean the house or to go cook for the family. It doesn't mean that he didn't but, they both knew how hard the other worked.

At times, having two parents who are busy like this is just as bad as raising a family as a single parent in my opinion. In the end, the kids suffer because the parents are usually stressed out and "family time" becomes reduced. There has to be a moment when families, parents specifically, take control of their lives and find a balance between work and personal time when it comes to raising a family.

 

[Simple_Person]

Re: The "women" debate

You are right - we women have to teach all our children equally to make household works. This might be the only way to change old ways to think. Women can also choose such husbands whose opinions of the household works is not so traditional as children learn they opnions from the both parents.

It is not only household work, but also being clean in general. For example i try to learn from others what might be the reason for failed marriages. You know what i learned? The little things make you hate your spouse and even slowly disliking to have intimacy with ones spouse. Having a bad breath, or one smells because not having take a shower or any other LITTLE thing. This reminded me sub'han'Allah of the advice of Rasullah(saws).

He was with one sahaba and when they entered Medina, he advised his companion to not go immediately to home. Rather wait until the notifier of Medina made clear that the caravan has arrived to the people of Medina so his spouse could clean herself and make herself ready for her husband to arrive.

To be servant of Allah, one has to be servant of their spouse. Wife being servant of her husband and husband being servant of his wife. If we look through the perspective of Islam this even makes sense. Allah is ALWAYS on #1. On the Day of Judgement you first are asked about your bond with Allah, after that comes the rights of people upon you. Your spouse is one of them. After the rights of the people comes everything else (free time and such).

So if one is NOT praying, one has to be a servant of their spouse. A servant by definition is one who is ready at all times to serve. However again the ONLY thing that surpasses this definition is when you being a servant of Allah, which both of the spouses off course are. A servant does not sit idle on the side, but rather proactively does things. Goes and does the dishes for example, makes sure he/she is looking beautiful and representing (look at butlers for example) or even us when we pray, we have to be clean in clean clothes because we are standing before Allah.

Never ask for your rights, rather proactively give the rights of your spouse. If your spouse has an ounce of imaan left, they will see that and will also actively give you your right. If not, for sure you have married a wrong spouse ..in other words not followed the advice of Rasullah(saws) what spouse to marry.

My own brother for example when he eats he sits back down. I later on learned why he does that, because my mother and sister constantly do not want him to help them or when he does help, they only put him down with words which takes away somebodies motivation. He said once that i believe they were not at home so he ate something and did the dishes. Later on seeing my sister AGAIN washing the same dishes. One could say well it could be that they were dirty, but even i noticed they would NOT let me clean. Maybe OCD ..i don't know. All i know is that culture is DEEP in their mind PREVENTING men even to help them. I am glad to know such women exist, because i will stay far away from such women that do not want me to help them in household chores.

Such women will only feel a burnout sooner or later. Because they refuse you as a male to help them and Allah gives health and takes away health. When they are sick still wanting to clean all on their own, but when children are also born, that comes with it...so chaos upon chaos. Knowing women, they will still blame you for all the chaos..typical illogical female mentality. When this happens, a guy can take just enough injustice being blamed for something he is free of blame. Which again makes it.. a failed marriage, because she points at you for her bad health or the chaos and you as a male being all mad because you rather are free from blame. It starts from such small things.

 

[sister herb]

Re: The "women" debate

To keiv:

That´s quite same what my parents have lived. They got only girls (I and my sister) so they hadn´t change to teach to the next generation´s boys to do same or different when it goes to the household works of course. We sisters learnt to cook, clean, repair cars (well, I am not good with it but my sister is) and repair the house. So, some changed happened eventually.

 

[Umm♥Layth]

I completely understand that. I, for one, don't believe "cleaning and cooking" to be a feminine thing that the OP says people here are claiming.

I'm the one that referred to it as a feminine art. I didn't say it was a feminine duty, they are very different things. In this world EVERYTHING is in pairs if you notice. There are masculine actions, feminine actions. Masculine words, feminine words, colors, decor, animals and even plants are masculine and feminine.

There are women who have more masculine feature or personality traits and there are men who have more feminine features and personality traits. Nothing to do with sexuality, it is just how they are. I am personally a very dominant female and my mannerism could be at times a bit masculine. I am not the mary poppins softly spoken type and I make my kids take their medicine without sugar. LOL. pun...pun.

Anyway, now that I explained that, I hope you can start to understand what I meant by calling domestic work feminine. The female is generally more detailed in everything she does by her very nature. If you have raised kids of both genders you'll see this is part of a girls fitra. She is created to bare children (nobody can deny the womb!) and caring for an infant takes a strong intuition and attention to very fine detail. Women generally have an incredible amount of patience and tolerance and most importantly, compassion. This is natural to the female and for the male, he has to work on developing these "features".

Women are very different from men in their nature and each gender can develop qualities that are more masculine or feminine. It is called balancing out one's character. So learning how to clean and do domestic work comes much easier to the woman due to her gifts and capabilities, but can also be learned by a man and if he can master these things, his character will be much more well rounded insha'Allah. Note: I'm not saying women are born shining pots fresh out the womb, I am saying it is more natural to them to learn the domestic arts. Some women downright refuse to learn and that's their prerogative.

I will have to come by and share my story as a former maid. I was a maid for years to get through school and I was professionally trained. Trust me when I tell you it is an art. When people think of cleaning, they think of sweeping, mopping, dishes and laundry. It is much much more than that and attention to detail is key. Nobody thinks of how to do it appropriately, efficiency, detailing, wiping and shining and most importantly, maintenance. Maintenance is the most important part as this what will make daily chores easy or difficult. One can maintain a house easily with just 15-30 mins per day.

and before I'm accused of generalizing, I will say that I'm giving an extremely brief summary of what I'm trying to get accross just to put the idea out there.

Jumah Mubarak everyone!

 

[sister herb]

Well sister, here is no need to accuse you about generalization. We are different and we have different opinions. We can disagree and still keep this discussion peaceful.

*hides the hammer behind her back*

 

[Abz2000]

I'm the one that referred to it as a feminine art. I didn't say it was a feminine duty, they are very different things. In this world EVERYTHING is in pairs if you notice. There are masculine actions, feminine actions. Masculine words, feminine words, colors, decor, animals and even plants are masculine and feminine.

There are women who have more masculine feature or personality traits and there are men who have more feminine features and personality traits. Nothing to do with sexuality, it is just how they are. I am personally a very dominant female and my mannerism could be at times a bit masculine. I am not the mary poppins softly spoken type and I make my kids take their medicine without sugar. LOL. pun...pun.

Anyway, now that I explained that, I hope you can start to understand what I meant by calling domestic work feminine. The female is generally more detailed in everything she does by her very nature. If you have raised kids of both genders you'll see this is part of a girls fitra. She is created to bare children (nobody can deny the womb!) and caring for an infant takes a strong intuition and attention to very fine detail. Women generally have an incredible amount of patience and tolerance and most importantly, compassion. This is natural to the female and for the male, he has to work on developing these "features".

Women are very different from men in their nature and each gender can develop qualities that are more masculine or feminine. It is called balancing out one's character. So learning how to clean and do domestic work comes much easier to the woman due to her gifts and capabilities, but can also be learned by a man and if he can master these things, his character will be much more well rounded insha'Allah. Note: I'm not saying women are born shining pots fresh out the womb, I am saying it is more natural to them to learn the domestic arts. Some women downright refuse to learn and that's their prerogative.

I will have to come by and share my story as a former maid. I was a maid for years to get through school and I was professionally trained. Trust me when I tell you it is an art. When people think of cleaning, they think of sweeping, mopping, dishes and laundry. It is much much more than that and attention to detail is key. Nobody thinks of how to do it appropriately, efficiency, detailing, wiping and shining and most importantly, maintenance. Maintenance is the most important part as this what will make daily chores easy or difficult. One can maintain a house easily with just 15-30 mins per day.

and before I'm accused of generalizing, I will say that I'm giving an extremely brief summary of what I'm trying to get accross just to put the idea out there.

Jumah Mubarak everyone!

Wa iyyaaki

an interesting observation, also sheds light on the fact that men are generally better at finding their bearings and making a wild choice in a certain direction when driving, whereas women are generally better at remembering the route, men generally pay les attention to their appearance than women, spend less time in front of the mirror, andaregenerally messy in comparison to women.
Women Also have less vehicle accidents than men. Boys are unruly in class whereas girls pay attention.
i think that men are generally better at wider comprehension and risky calculations whereas women are better at following rules, understanding the status quo and working and trying to make things work within means and set rules.

and i think there is a reason why men are given the responsibility and leadership role in a family.
this is not in a competitive way since htey are both essential parts of a team, but in terms of harmony and stability.
watch any family outside on holiday or pilgrimage in any unknown land full of different customs to thosdewith which they are normally accustomed.

 

[Abz2000]

Although some of this research is inevitably subjective to many factors, including self interest, competition, prejudice, political "correctness", economic factors, etc, there are still observations and information worthy of absorbing and processing:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_intelligence

 

[MuslimInshallah]

Assalaamu alaikum everyone,

(smile) My! This has been an active thread! (smile) Obviously, it touches a nerve. So thank you Bhabha for starting this. While there is a fair level of disagreement with your position on this Forum, yours is, nonetheless, the dominant paradigm in our Canadian society, and increasingly the dominant one in the world at large, it seems to me. And therefore, it is one we should examine, I think.

(seriously) But the question that really keeps coming back to me is why? Why is there all this emphasis on "helping" women?

As Umm Layth pointed out, when a woman really does need help, it's pretty hard to find... and the laws do not seem to protect potentially vulnerable women; quite the contrary. I know this from personal experience here in Canada. It seems that the "help" is restricted to convincing women to get out and earn a pay check.

Why?

Could it be that all that canning and preserving, chicken-raising, children-raising, cooking, sewing, garden-growing... the traditional (in Canada, at least) womanly arts... could it be that these things helped us be more independent? As individuals, families and even communities? Could it be that this work was not taxable? Could it be that large corporations couldn't make huge profits off this work?

(smile) I'm afraid I disagree with you Anatolian. I do not think that men are the problem. I do not believe in the war of the sexes at all. But I do believe that our modern social and economic industrial set-up needs us to be isolated and helpless consumers.

(mildly) The problem is not only restricted to women. Men have also lost their traditional arts. How many men know basic carpentry these days? Could build a house? Could make the implements needed for the home? Would know how to deal with large livestock?

(smile) The exact roles that men and women play in each society may vary, but in each society, there has been a division of labour within the family between the genders, a division that respected the particularities and necessities of that particular place and time. And this labour was vital for the functioning of the family. Both men and women had power within this relationship, and either one without the other was weak and vulnerable.

In our post-industrial world, the first to lose their power were the men. Their skilled trades were were replaced with factory work. Did they go along with this meekly? No. They tried to defend themselves from what they could see would be disastrous for their livelihoods and their families. (mildly) We laugh at them now and call them "luddites"... but they were correct. In Britain, I know people resisted, and in Austria... and I am very sure in every society this industrial machine set foot, people resisted. But the machine won, every time.

And after the men were conquered... it was time to "liberate" the women. And yes, the unbalancing of the roles within the family when the men lost their independence caused trouble for the women and children, too. And women were suffering. But is the solution to this suffering to subtly force women into corporate slavehood, too?

(smile) I do understand Bhabha that you have your own situation and experience. And I respect that. (mildly) But I wonder how much of the opinion you hold is a result of the pervasive dominant view in the corporate-dominated technological Canadian society in which we both live?


May God, the Bestower, Guide us all to ever-deeper knowledge and wisdom.

 

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Good debate, having lived in a western society steeped in this ideology I can safely say we dont need it. Many western men are questioning (privately if not publicly) a lot of feminist propoganda and rejecting it.

Cant say this ideology hasnt had success, its played its part in destroying the family system in the UK.

https://www.islamicboard.com/family-amp-society/134320450-fathers-day-country-fatherhood-dying.html

We have our faith, our customs and culture. We have enough problems as it is, we dont need this divisive ideology poisioning the relations between men and woman.