Things in Islam I am curious about...

[Hugo]

Question - I notice again the claim that prophets are free of sin. Can anyone give us a a few references from the Qu'ran where this is stated?

 

[aadil77]

This is a rather curious idea - does the Qu'ran NEVER describe sin, tell us what it is or are we left to guess? Surely, you cannot think that when sinful acts are described the Bible is recommending them?

lol are you sure thats all the bible describes? I've made a thread about verses in the bible that many are ignorant of, its gone for mod approval

It is true that the Bible records sins against the prophets - why is this unacceptable in Islam? If they did not commit sin then does that mean they are guaranteed a place in heaven since they have no sins to atone for? I cannot recall this bit about Jesus commanding murder, can you give us a reference?

Allah sends His perfect message to prophets to preach, would it make sense that the man He has chosen for the job is a sinner himself? they have to set an example many people, indulging in major sins will give them no credibility

 

[Hugo]

lol are you sure thats all the bible describes? I've made a thread about verses in the bible that many are ignorant of, its gone for mod approval

There are no verses in the Bible that are unknown so don't quite know what you are claiming but let us know when the thread goes live.

Allah sends His perfect message to prophets to preach, would it make sense that the man He has chosen for the job is a sinner himself? they have to set an example many people, indulging in major sins will give them no credibility

I know what the usual reason Muslim's give or one might say explain away what is obvious. What I asked was where is the scriptural warrant for it? Since you are interested in Bible verses there are a few that describe an incident where a donkey spoke at God's direction (see if you can find it). Why would God limit himself in this way and I find it an odd idea that you imply I think that only prophets can say anything of truth or worth?

 

[aadil77]

I know what the usual reason Muslim's give or one might say explain away what is obvious. What I asked was where is the scriptural warrant for it? Since you are interested in Bible verses there are a few that describe an incident where a donkey spoke at God's direction (see if you can find it). Why would God limit himself in this way and I find it an odd idea that you imply I think that only prophets can say anything of truth or worth?

Scriptual warrant? We have the whole of prophet muhammad's life recorded - find one instance where he commited a major sin

How does this limit god?

Prophets were the most trustworthy people on earth, they all possessed good qualities as they were instructed directly by Allah to spread His message. If you read about prophet Muhammad before he was given prophethood - he still had never engaged in any major sins and was unique compared to the rest of the arabs at the time.

 

[جوري]

Question - I notice again the claim that prophets are free of sin. Can anyone give us a a few references from the Qu'ran where this is stated?

وَمَا أُبَرِّئُ نَفْسِي إِنَّ النَّفْسَ لأَمَّارَةٌ بِالسُّوءِ إِلاَّ مَا رَحِمَ رَبِّيَ إِنَّ رَبِّي غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ {53}
[SIZE=-1][Pickthal 12:53] I do not exculpate myself. Lo! the (human) soul enjoineth unto evil, save that whereon my Lord hath mercy. Lo! my Lord is Forgiving, Merciful.

_____

[/SIZE]قَالَ رَبِّ بِمَا أَغْوَيْتَنِي لأُزَيِّنَنَّ لَهُمْ فِي الأَرْضِ وَلأُغْوِيَنَّهُمْ أَجْمَعِينَ {39}
[SIZE=-1][Pickthal 15:39] He said: My Lord! Because Thou hast sent me astray, I verily shall adorn the path of error for them in the earth, and shall mislead them every one,[/SIZE]
إِلاَّ عِبَادَكَ مِنْهُمُ الْمُخْلَصِينَ {40}
[SIZE=-1][Pickthal 15:40] Save such of them as are Thy perfectly devoted slaves.[/SIZE]
قَالَ هَذَا صِرَاطٌ عَلَيَّ مُسْتَقِيمٌ {41}
[SIZE=-1][Pickthal 15:41] He said: This is a right course incumbent upon Me:[/SIZE]
إِنَّ عِبَادِي لَيْسَ لَكَ عَلَيْهِمْ سُلْطَانٌ إِلاَّ مَنِ اتَّبَعَكَ مِنَ الْغَاوِينَ {42}
[SIZE=-1][Pickthal 15:42] Lo! as for My slaves, thou hast no power over any of them save such of the froward as follow thee,[/SIZE]
وَإِنَّ جَهَنَّمَ لَمَوْعِدُهُمْ أَجْمَعِينَ {43}
[SIZE=-1][Pickthal 15:43] And lo! for all such, hell will be the promised place.

___________________________


[/SIZE]وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِن رَّسُولٍ إِلاَّ لِيُطَاعَ بِإِذْنِ اللّهِ وَلَوْ أَنَّهُمْ إِذ ظَّلَمُواْ أَنفُسَهُمْ جَآؤُوكَ فَاسْتَغْفَرُواْ اللّهَ وَاسْتَغْفَرَ لَهُمُ الرَّسُولُ لَوَجَدُواْ اللّهَ تَوَّابًا رَّحِيمًا {64}
[SIZE=-1][Pickthal 4:64] We sent no messenger save that he should be obeyed by Allah's leave. And if, when they had wronged themselves, they had but come unto thee and asked forgiveness of Allah, and asked forgiveness of the messenger, they would have found Allah Forgiving, Merciful.

-___________________

[/SIZE]مَّنْ يُطِعِ الرَّسُولَ فَقَدْ أَطَاعَ اللّهَ وَمَن تَوَلَّى فَمَا أَرْسَلْنَاكَ عَلَيْهِمْ حَفِيظًا {80}
[SIZE=-1][Pickthal 4:80] Whoso obeyeth the messenger hath obeyed Allah, and whoso turneth away: We have not sent thee as a warder over them.

[/SIZE]And most certainly you are on sublime morality (exalted standard of character)." (Quran 68:4)



you argue so much against the Quran and at times I wonder if you as you claim have ever read it!

all the best

 

[Grace Seeker]

Allah sends His perfect message to prophets to preach, would it make sense that the man He has chosen for the job is a sinner himself? they have to set an example many people, indulging in major sins will give them no credibility

I have received guidance from imperfect people all of my life. I learned out to parent from my imperfect parents. I learned how to play the piano from my imperfect piano teachers. I first learned about God and the holy life we are all called to from imperfect people who I might have originally seen as perfect, but in time learned they are not. When I realized that they were not, I was actually buoyed up in my walk with God by realizing that they too struggled with some of the same things that I did, but relied on God to help them overcome and master those struggles. This has helped me to leave behind some of those sins that once ensnared me. Muslims here often complain that if Jesus was God then his suffering on the cross wasn't real. But I find that it is in humanness that his suffering is indeed very much real. The same is true of dealing with sin. If the prophets, as was reported above, are incapable of sinning, then it isn't just that they didn't sin, but that there was no possibility of them sinning.

because sin (khatee’ah, pl. khataayaa) is impossible in the case of the Messengers.

So, how can they be a model for me? Quite simply, they aren't. I cannot identify with a person who not only didn't sin, but who never even faced the temptation to sin. Such a person, including the Jesus of Islam, does not even know my life and their guidance is meaningless. The Christian Jesus on the other hand, was faced with temptation and, not as God, but as a human being showed that a man could live a life fully submitted to God. I may not have always done so, but his walk and testimony tells me that it is possible, so when I stumble he encourages me in the way the the Jesus of Islam does not, to get up and try to submit to God again.


Now, you say that they set a credible example for you. Please help me to understand how their example is credible and applicable to your life if, in fact, they do not even face the possibility of sinning that are do? Their example seems no more helpful to my life than does a child who attempts to copy superman by jumping off a roof wearing blue pajamas and a cape. But I accept that you say they help yours, can you share with me how?



And ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ, with respect, I don't see how those verses you provided from the Qur'an are indicative that the prophets of Islam never sinned. Are we to identify the prophets with the "perfectly devoted slaves" of 15:40? Couldn't this refer to any follower of Islam? Further one might today be a perfectly devoted slave of Allah, but that doesn't mean that one always was since birth. So, even if one grants that one never sins after receiving the call of prophethood, it doesn't follow that one never sinned. What am I missing that leads Muslims to that conclusion?

 

[aadil77]

^Would you accept a divine message from someone who has a past of major sins?

not just that, would you believe them if they told you they were prophets sent from god?

 

[جوري]

I have received guidance from imperfect people all of my life. I learned out to parent from my imperfect parents. I learned how to play the piano from my imperfect piano teachers. I first learned about God and the holy life we are all called to from imperfect people who I might have originally seen as perfect, but in time learned they are not. When I realized that they were not, I was actually buoyed up in my walk with God by realizing that they too struggled with some of the same things that I did, but relied on God to help them overcome and master those struggles. This has helped me to leave behind some of those sins that once ensnared me. Muslims here often complain that if Jesus was God then his suffering on the cross wasn't real. But I find that it is in humanness that his suffering is indeed very much real. The same is true of dealing with sin. If the prophets, as was reported above, are incapable of sinning, then it isn't just that they didn't sin, but that there was no possibility of them sinning. [/SIZE]So, how can they be a model for me? Quite simply, they aren't. I cannot identify with a person who not only didn't sin, but who never even faced the temptation to sin. Such a person, including the Jesus of Islam, does not even know my life and their guidance is meaningless. The Christian Jesus on the other hand, was faced with temptation and, not as God, but as a human being showed that a man could live a life fully submitted to God. I may not have always done so, but his walk and testimony tells me that it is possible, so when I stumble he encourages me in the way the the Jesus of Islam does not, to get up and try to submit to God again.

You'll forgive my asking but who cares if you have received less than stellar lessons? When someone teaches you a mistake, you are bound to keep making the mistake over and over and then carry it on to all future generation who are bound to repeat the same mistake. Sort of like when your forefathers decided that Jesus was god and that error is passed down to every generation purely on hearsay and no logical analysis.. Yes your end point is correct, your religion encourages you to live in error and teaches you that there is no consequence to it.. I find that sad not something to be proud of!

Now, you say that they set a credible example for you. Please help me to understand how their example is credible and applicable to your life if, in fact, they do not even face the possibility of sinning that are do? Their example seems no more helpful to my life than does a child who attempts to copy superman by jumping off a roof wearing blue pajamas and a cape. But I accept that you say they help yours, can you share with me how?

Better yet you tell me how what you have learned from sins? let's say a man sent to warn against the sins of the flesh by committing sins of the flesh himself-- So that centuries later you can incorporate lewd acts and say that God made them ok, look at this alleged righteous man he sent who himself is a sinner.. everyone pls go ahead and sleep with your daughters or other men?

It isn't being super-human to try and live a righteous life..

all the best

 

[Grace Seeker]

^Would you accept a divine message from someone who has a past of major sins?

not just that, would you believe them if they told you they were prophets sent from god?

No. I get your point with that. Or, maybe I should say, I wouldn't believe them at first. If I saw a change in their life, that transformation might be the just the sign that I needed to believe that God was at work in them. It would make their message all the more credible.

 

[Grace Seeker]

It isn't being super-human to try and live a righteous life..

all the best

Is this your personal view or a tenet of Islam? Does Islam believe that it is the normal course of human existence to live without being influenced by sin? I thought that Islam taught

وَمَا أُبَرِّئُ نَفْسِي إِنَّ النَّفْسَ لأَمَّارَةٌ بِالسُّوءِ إِلاَّ مَا رَحِمَ رَبِّيَ إِنَّ رَبِّي غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ {[/SIZE]قَالَ رَبِّ بِمَا أَغْوَيْتَنِي لأُزَيِّنَنَّ لَهُمْ فِي الأَرْضِ وَلأُغْوِيَنَّهُمْ أَجْمَعِينَ {39}
[SIZE=-1][Pickthal 15:39] He said: My Lord! Because Thou hast sent me astray, I verily shall adorn the path of error for them in the earth, and shall mislead them every one,[/SIZE]

 

[Ramadhan]

I am not aware of this, can you offer some evidence? Do you have say a copy of the Bible before it was allegedly corrupted so we can check?

Do you have a copy of Bible from when Jesus pbuh was still alive or even better, when moses pbuh was still alive? I will show you where the corruptions are.

 

[جوري]

Is this your personal view or a tenet of Islam? Does Islam believe that it is the normal course of human existence to live without being influenced by sin? I thought that Islam taught

Do read the verses in context please-- I wrote them in context so you wouldn't handpick the verse you want and ignore the rest!

thank you

 

[aadil77]

No. I get your point with that. Or, maybe I should say, I wouldn't believe them at first. If I saw a change in their life, that transformation might be the just the sign that I needed to believe that God was at work in them. It would make their message all the more credible.

Glad you understand. But in islam you can clearly read up about the miracles and attributes of prophets even as they were children, I'm sure you know of the miracle of prophet Isa when he was in the cradle. Prophet Muhammad when he was small was raised by bedouins in the desert - when he came into their home he brought many blessings with him, such as their livestock had increased their animals became strong and healthy. All these blessings and guidence are with prophets from the beginning, prophet Muhammad as a young person built up a reputation for being the most trustworthy, this kind of reputation is what built up peoples belief in him. The prophets were all completely unique they had that connection with Allah from the start. Allah chose the best people to deliver His message, they were representatives of islam from the start. These were signs for the people to reflect on.

Any man can have a bad past then completly change, but can a man show such consistency and be sinless all his life?

 

[Grace Seeker]

Do read the verses in context please-- I wrote them in context so you wouldn't handpick the verse you want and ignore the rest!

thank you

You did. And I did. But even in context they still leave me with the same question in response to your assertion that "It isn't being super-human to try and live a righteous life." It seems that it is just that. All human beings left to their own will be led into sin, only those that have some special dispensation from Allah will escape that snare. Thus, the normal human life is filled with sin, and only someone who has some outside help is able to live a sinless life. That's what I read in the context of what you provided.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Any man can have a bad past then completly change, but can a man show such consistency and be sinless all his life?

In the world that I observe both are rare. And both are to be celebrated. This is another point where ultimately we are going to disagree, but I appreciate the way you've simply shared your understanding without casting dispersions on those who see differently. I'm sure I'll have more similar questions another time, but thanks for your helpfulness today in better understanding where Islam is coming from.

 

[جوري]

You did. And I did. But even in context they still leave me with the same question in response to your assertion that "It isn't being super-human to try and live a righteous life." It seems that it is just that. All human beings left to their own will be led into sin, only those that have some special dispensation from Allah will escape that snare. Thus, the normal human life is filled with sin, and only someone who has some outside help is able to live a sinless life. That's what I read in the context of what you provided.

then you must have read this as well:

[SIZE=-1][Pickthal 15:42] Lo! as for My slaves, thou hast no power over any of them save such of the froward as follow thee,

indeed one Must seek guidance but once you are guided, satan has no power of you!

all the best
[/SIZE]

 

[Hugo]

Scriptual warrant? We have the whole of prophet muhammad's life recorded - find one instance where he commited a major sin.

Are you implying the prophet Mohammed is above God? I asked where in the Qu'ran it says that all the prophets are sinless - surely God's word must rank above anything the prophet did or said?

How does this limit god?

You have invented an explanation about God only using certain people, so you have made your mind the measure of all things that God can do. You assume that because you have an explanation it is the only one possible. Why should not God use anyone or anything to send a message?

Prophets were the most trustworthy people on earth, they all possessed good qualities as they were instructed directly by Allah to spread His message. If you read about prophet Muhammad before he was given prophethood - he still had never engaged in any major sins and was unique compared to the rest of the arabs at the time.

How many prophets were there like this, if they are all sinless then prophet Mohammed is not in any way unique is he? All the prophets mentioned in the OT did wrong and your only argument is that the Bible is corrupted but since you do not have the original you cannot know. Also what idiot would corrupt a text say about Abraham, a prophet highly revered, to make him look bad - its does not make any sense does it?

 

[Hugo]

then you must have read this as well:

Pickthal 15:42Lo! as for My slaves, thou hast no power over any of them save such of the froward as follow thee, indeed one Must seek guidance but once you are guided, satan has no power of you!

I see that this has some weight in the argument but if we read on it says "you (Satan) shall have no power over my servants, only sinners who follow you. They are all destined for hell"" So 'servants' you imply must mean just the prophets and the rests of us are sinners without hope of any kind?

 

[جوري]

I see that this has some weight in the argument but if we read on it says "you (Satan) shall have no power over my servants, only sinners who follow you. They are all destined for hell"" So 'servants' you imply must mean just the prophets and the rests of us are sinners without hope of any kind?

I don't imply anything.. sinners are those who choose sin willingly consciously and freely, I think the verse is quite obvious that satan has no power over the righteous.. so whether or not you implicate prophets in such sins, is your own problem, your bibles are replete with debauchery against God, so it doesn't make much of difference if you implicate the messengers as well.

As far as the only living word of God, those who are righteous (messengers or regular folks) satan has no sovereign over them.

yes we are all servants of God and his creation, not his children!
God doesn't reproduce so you need not put it in quotations, unless you are trying to assert a point to your own person?


all the best

 

[EllyDicious]

What is the benefit in music? To me it is just a waste of time, and with music, most of the time there comes too many bad side effects with it.

No offense but this is the funniest quote of the week.

Anyway, that's your opinion.