Things in Islam I am curious about...

[Grace Seeker]

the shahadah is not what makes you a Muslim. It is only what brings you into the Muslim community.

And this gets us to the third thing we are discussing, and back to my original question which stemmed from the comment:

To me, Islam makes the most sense of ANY religion in its teaching about God (Allah). There is One God. No equals, no sons of God, no one can be equal, or be compared to or approach God, avoid Shirk, etc. The shahada sums it up. There is no God but God and Mohammad is his Messenger. Now that is hard to argue with is it not? :statisfie

Given that the Shahada only sums it up to people who are already believing in accord with Islam, and wouldn't necessarily have the same meaning to someone who understood the nature of Muhammad's prophethood differently than a Muslim or who believed in one God but had a different conception of who God was than a Muslim, simply reciting the words is hardly sufficient to the making of a Muslim. As has already been expressed by more than one poster above, one really must be a Muslim already to say the Shahada with the meaning that a Muslim ascribes to it.

So, if not the Shahada, what does it take to make you a Muslim?

Can one be brought into the Muslim community and not be a Muslim?

How does the Muslim community respond to people who claim for themselves that they are a part of the Muslim community but who don't believe the beliefs or practice the behaviors associated with being a Muslim?

 

[IAmZamzam]

Grace Seeker, I don't see how this is eluding you. But I suppose I have to break it down:

1. A prophet would not depict God falsely. You've just said so yourself.
2. Since Muhammad (P) taught that the Trinity is not only false but blasphemous, the contradiction leaves only two possibilities:
2a. He was not, even in your own special sense, a prophet of God.
2b. The Trinity really is untrue and blasphemous.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Grace Seeker, I don't see how this is eluding you. But I suppose I have to break it down:

1. A prophet would not depict God falsely. You've just said so yourself.
2. Since Muhammad (P) taught that the Trinity is not only false but blasphemous, the contradiction leaves only two possibilities:
2a. He was not, even in your own special sense, a prophet of God.
2b. The Trinity really is untrue and blasphemous.

2c. He fulfilled the role of a prophet of God at times, speaking forth on God's behalf. And, as with most people, this was but a temporary role, not a permament vocation. I am only willing to go so far as saying that Muhammad at times spoke forth on God's behalf. An example from the Christian scriptures is the story of Caiaphas who said with regard to Jesus: "You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish" (John 11:50). And the writer or the gospel then offers commentary on Caiaphas' words: "He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation, and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one" (John 11:51). So, here we have someone who fulfills the role of a prophet, at least temporarily, even though they do not have the permament vocation of being a prophet as not everything Caiaphas said should be taken as being a word from God. I find that to be an option not included in 2a or 2b.

Beyond this I don't want to say more. I'm trying to say something positive about Muhammad and hope that you would be happy that beyond that I left anything else unsaid.

 

[IAmZamzam]

I'm not happy, because you're talking nonsense, and blowing hot and cold with the same breath. He was a prophet some of the time? If being a prophet just means incidentally (or even accidentally) being the means by which God ends up getting a message or sign across to someone on one or two occasions then you could just as easily label a condom store sign a prophet. Anything can fulfill that role: a rock, a tree, a chewing gum wrapper....

 

[Woodrow]

There are several accepted means of saying the Shahadah, the xact words are flexible, but the overall meaning is to believe "There is no God except Allaah(swt) and Muhammad is the messenger of Allaah(swt). I am aware of 3 commonly used

ASH HADU AN LAA ILAHA IL LAL LAH

I bear witness that there is no God except Allah

WAHDAHU LA SHARIKA LAHU

He is One, without any partner

WA ASH HADU AN NA MUHAMMAD AN ABDUHU WA RASOOLUH

And I bear witness that Muhammad is His slave and Messenger

"Ashhadu anna

"I bear witness that there is no God but ALLAH and muhammad is his messenger and Isa is his messenger"

"La ilaha illa allah wa anna muhammadun rasulullah wa isa rasulullah"

"There is no God but ALLAH and muhammad is his messenger and Isa is his messenger"

The exact wording is not important but the intent to sincerely want to be Muslim and that they understand and sincerely believe There is only One God(swt), Allaah(swt) and Muhammad(PBUH) is the messenger of Allaah(swt)

 

[Grace Seeker]

The exact wording is not important but the intent to sincerely want to be Muslim and that they understand and sincerely believe There is only One God(swt), Allaah(swt) and Muhammad(PBUH) is the messenger of Allaah(swt)

So from your Catholic background, I am sure you can see how a Christian would be comfortable with the first part and not even doubt that this was true -- there is only One God. As to the second part, whether that is understood to be true is going to vary depending on what people think it means to say that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. The word "angel" literally means messenger. But Muhammad is not Allah's angel. An "apostle" is one who is "sent forth". Did God ever speak to Muhammad with a message? I suspect you will find Christians all over the map on this. Though if any thought that the entirety of his message was truly a direct revelation from God then they would become Muslim in the same way that you did. Others would argue that all prophecy stopped with the completion of the NT scriptures, so there is no way that Muhammad could be a prophet, regardless his message. And then there are others who are inbetween, acknowledging the possibility that Muhammad may have had some sort of message from God that he was sent forth with, but also not believing that this means everything which he said must therefore be the result of divine revelation. Is such a person a messenger or not?

I'm not happy, because you're talking nonsense, and blowing hot and cold with the same breath. He was a prophet some of the time? If being a prophet just means incidentally (or even accidentally) being the means by which God ends up getting a message or sign across to someone on one or two occasions then you could just as easily label a condom store sign a prophet. Anything can fulfill that role: a rock, a tree, a chewing gum wrapper....

OK. By your standards I'm talking nonsense. I'm not asking you to accept my standards or to change yours in any way. I'm just answering the question asked of me as to how as a Christian I might be able to affirm the words of the Shahada. By your standards and your understanding of prophethood I would not be so able, I would have had to have answered 2a above.

 

[Insaanah]

I have only just skimmed through the last couple of pages of the thread, so I apologise if this post is not relevant or doesn't answer a question, but it did seem to me as though this information may be useful here.

Muslims believe that the shahadah is without value unless it is earnest.

The Qur'an and the ahadeeth are the ultimate sources for knowledge in Islam. We find contained in them the reality of the conditions necessary for the "shahadah." Islamic scholars have therefore developed, based on the data of the Quran and ahadeeth, essential criteria for an expression of the shahadah to be earnest. These criteria are generally divided into seven or eight or nine individual criteria; the varying numbers and orderings are not due to disagreements about what the criteria actually are, but rather different ways of dividing them. The conditions are headed in black. I have adapted this from various sources to try to make it as easy to read and understand as I could.

In the first part of the shahadah, the first pillar is the pillar of negation (there is no God), whilst the second is the pillar of affirmation (except Allah). What is meant by negation is to negate divinity and worship for anything except Allah, the Most High. What is meant by affirmation is to affirm divinity and worship only for Allah the Most Perfect; for it is He alone that is the true Deity. So whatever else is taken by the unbelievers as deities to be worshipped are in fact all false and futile: "That is because Allah is the Truth, and that which they call upon other than Him is falsehood.." [Surah al-Hajj 22:62]

Nobody is associated in Allah's exclusive Divinity. Whether it is assuming that Jesus is also divine, or that there are many gods, or that God has a son, or that God is composed of a trinity in which there are other godheads or persons, none of that Islamically constitutes worshipping Allah alone and having Him as sole Deity.

Imam Ibn al-Qayyim said: The significance of ash'hadu an laa ilaaha illallaah (I bear witness that there is no God but Allah) in affirming divinity and worship for only Allah is far greater than just saying that Allah is an ilaah (God). This is because the saying that Allah is an ilaah does not negate divinity and worship to other than Allah. This is different to the saying: laa ilaaha illallaah (there is no God but Allah); which obligates restricting divinity and worship to only Allah.

All the messengers of Allah told their people none has the right to be worshipped except Allah:

Allah said: "We did not send any Messenger before you, except that We revealed to him that none has the right to be worshipped except Me; so worship Me." [Surah al-Anbiyaa 21:25]

The second part of the "Shahadah" i.e. "Wa ash'hadu anna Muhammadan abduhu wa rasuluh" means that the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is the servant and messenger of Allah. No one should be in any doubt about this matter. In fact, the Muslim has to obey the commands of the Prophet (peace be upon him), to believe in what he has said, to follow his teachings, to avoid what he has forbidden, and to worship Allah alone according to the message revealed to him.

The conditions can be described briefly as follows:

1 Knowledge

That is, one must have the basic and general knowledge of what is meant by the shahadah. One must understand what the shahadah is affirming and what the shahadah is negating.

Allah says in the Qur'an;

"So know that there is no God save Allah....." (Surah Muhammad 47: 19).

When one testifies to something, one must know what it is that he is testifying concerns. Obviously, a testimony about something that one does not have any knowledge about is absolutely unacceptable.

2 Certainty

The heart must be firmly certain of the meaning of Shahadah without a blemish of doubt. This is the opposite of doubt and uncertainty. We must, in our hearts, be absolutely certain of the truth of the shahadah.

3 Sincerity

That is, when we make the shahadah, we must do so solely for the sake of Allah. We must not do it for any other reason. And we must not do it for anyone else's sake. In this manner, the meaning of sincerity is opposite of Shirk or ascribing partners with Allah. We became and remain Muslims solely for Allah's sake.

4 Truthfulness

This means that when we say the shahadah, we are saying it honestly. We actually mean it. We are not lying when it comes to our testimony of faith. It is truthfulness which prevents hypocrisy. Indeed, the hypocrites uttered it with their tongues, but did not inwardly believe in what it signified.

5 Love and affection

Love for this testimony and having love and pleasure for it. That is, the believer loves this shahadah, he loves the implications and requirements of the shahadah. This is a necessary condition of the shahadah. If a person makes the shahadah but does not love the shahadah and what it stands for, then, in fact, his faith is not complete. The true believer, the one meeting the conditions of the shahadah puts no one whatsoever as an equal to Allah in his love.

Allah says in the Qur'an:

"Yet of mankind are some who take unto themselves (objects of worship which they set as) rivals to Allah, loving them with a love like (that which is due to) Allah only. However, those who believe are stauncher in their love of Allah" (al-Baqarah: 165).

The Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, said: "There are three (qualities), whoever possesses them, will taste the sweetness of Iman (belief): to love Allah and His Messenger more than anyone else, to love the Muslim only for the sake of Allah, and to dread returning to kufr (apostasy) as he dreads being thrown in fire." ( Bukhari and Muslim.)

Allah says:

Say (O Muhammad SAW to mankind): "If you (really) love Allah then follow me , Allah will love you and forgive you of your sins. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." (3:31)

The Prophet, peace be upon him, also said: "None of you shall (really) believe until I become dearer to him than his own father, and son and all mankind." ( Bukhari and Muslim.)

6 Submission and compliance

This implies the actual physical enactment with our deeds of our shahadah. In fact, this is one of the main meanings of the word Islam itself, "the submission to the will and commands of Allah." This is what Allah commands in the Qur'an:

"Turn unto Him repentant, and surrender unto Him" (al-Zumar: 54).

Allah has praised those who submit to His command by their actions. Allah says:

"Who is better in religion than he who surrenders his purpose to Allah while doing good" (al-Nisa 4:125).

Actually, Allah has clearly made it a condition of faith that one submits to the command of Allah and His messenger.

Allah says: "But nay, by your Lord, they will not truly believe until they make you [the Messenger of Allah] judge of what is in dispute between them and find within themselves no dislike of which you decide, and submit with full submission" (al-Nisa 4:65)

Submissive compliance is also achieved by fulfilling the rights of the shahadah- which are the obligatory actions - with sincerity to Allah and seeking His good pleasure.

Allah, the Exalted, says: "And he who submits himself to Allah, and does good, he has surely grasped a strong handle." (Quran 31:22).

Allah also says:" And turn you to your Lord, and submit yourselves to Him." (Quran 39:54).

7 Acceptance and conformity

If a person has knowledge of and certainty in the shahadah, this must be followed by acceptance, with the tongue and heart, of whatever that shahadah implies. This is achieved by acting upon what Allah has commanded and abandoning whatever He has prohibited.

The believer accepts whatever the implications of the shahadah are. This also means that he believes in whatever is stated in the Qur'an or stated by the Prophet (peace be upon him), without any right to choose what he wants to believe and what he wants to reject.

Allah says in the Qur'an:

"Do you believe in part of the book and reject part of it? And what is the reward of those who do so, except humiliation in the life of this world, and on the Day of Resurrection they will be sent to the most dreadful doom." (al-Baqarah: 85).

Allah says "Indeed in the Messenger of Allah (Muhammad peace be upon him) you have a good example to follow for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) Allah and the Last Day and remembers Allah much."(33:21)

And Allah also says:

....And whatsoever the Messenger (Muhammad peace be upon him) gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it) , and fear Allah. Verily, Allah is Severe in punishment. (59:7)

O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger (Muhammad peace be upon him), and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority. (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger ( peace be upon him), if you believe in Allah and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination.(4:59)

But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith, until they make you (O Muhammad ) judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission. (4:65)

Say (O Muhammad peace be upon him): "Obey Allah and the Messenger (Muhammad peace be upon him)." But if they turn away, then Allah does not like the disbelievers (3:32).

Peace.

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam

"I bear witness that there is no God but ALLAH and muhammad is his messenger and Isa is his messenger

In this thread , I read about this Shahada . Is it mentioned in any hadith that one should utter it ?

 

[Insaanah]

"I bear witness that there is no God but ALLAH and muhammad is his messenger and Isa is his messenger

In this thread, I read about this Shahada. Is it mentioned in any hadith that one should utter it?

:wa: sister,

All that is needed to be declared for the shahaadah is to bear witness that there is no God but Allah, and that Muhammad :saws: is His Messenger.

Sometimes, however, these words are added to the shahaadah (but don't have to be) when a Christian reverts to Islam, and takes his/her shahaadah, to affirm their correct belief in Isa alayhissalaam, as a servant and Messenger of Allah.

But that does not mean that we have to say that. This is situation specific, and may or may not be added if appropriate at the time.

Shaikh Saalih Aal Taalib (imaam of Masjid al-Haraam in Makkah) helped two Phillipino ex-Catholics take their Shahaadah, and the wording he used, in addition to the normal wording was:

wa ash'hadu anna Isa abdullaahi wa rasooluh,
wa ash'hadu annal jannata haqq, wan-naar haqq, wa annallaaha yab'athu man fil quboor.

(And I bear witness that Jesus is the servant of Allah and His Messenger,
And I bear witness that heaven is true, and hell is true, and that Allah will resurrect those in the graves)

 

[Woodrow]

So from your Catholic background, I am sure you can see how a Christian would be comfortable with the first part and not even doubt that this was true -- there is only One God. As to the second part, whether that is understood to be true is going to vary depending on what people think it means to say that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. The word "angel" literally means messenger. But Muhammad is not Allah's angel. An "apostle" is one who is "sent forth". Did God ever speak to Muhammad with a message? I suspect you will find Christians all over the map on this. Though if any thought that the entirety of his message was truly a direct revelation from God then they would become Muslim in the same way that you did. Others would argue that all prophecy stopped with the completion of the NT scriptures, so there is no way that Muhammad could be a prophet, regardless his message. And then there are others who are inbetween, acknowledging the possibility that Muhammad may have had some sort of message from God that he was sent forth with, but also not believing that this means everything which he said must therefore be the result of divine revelation. Is such a person a messenger or not?

Peace Gene,

In my Catholic years I would have had no conflict with the Shahadah. However my understanding of the Shahadah would not have been the same as it is now. I think it would be impossible for a Christian to say the shahadah with sincerity if they fully understood it. a person has to leave Christianity first and then accept Islam. can't be both at the same time.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Peace Gene,

In my Catholic years I would have had no conflict with the Shahadah. However my understanding of the Shahadah would not have been the same as it is now. I think it would be impossible for a Christian to say the shahadah with sincerity if they fully understood it. a person has to leave Christianity first and then accept Islam. can't be both at the same time.

To say it with the same meaning as a Muslim, I agree. But that doesn't mean that someone saying it with a different meaning would be any less sincere in their own meaning.

And before someone responds that sincerity doens't make something right, for a person could be sincerely wrong. I will stipulate that in advance. Again, I wasn't answering whether I was right or wrong in my understanding of the Shahada, or whether I even have any business knowing what I know of the Shahada saying it at all (I wouldn't as I know how it would be interpretted by others). I was just answering the question as to how it is that a Christian could in fact say it without having to change his or her personal beliefs. The words used in it don't mean to others what they mean to a follower of Isalm.

 

[shuraimfan4lyf]

Shaikh Saalih Aal Taalib (imaam of Masjid al-Haraam in Makkah) helped two Phillipino ex-Catholics take their Shahaadah, and the wording he used, in addition to the normal wording was:

wa ash'hadu anna Isa abdullaahi wa rasooluh,
wa ash'hadu annal jannata haqq, wan-naar haqq, wa annallaaha yab'athu man fil quboor.

(And I bear witness that Jesus is the servant of Allah and His Messenger,
And I bear witness that heaven is true, and hell is true, and that Allah will resurrect those in the graves)

:wa:

 

[Grace Seeker]

shuraimfan4lyf and Insaanah, that is interesting. The addition that was requested shows that the Christian has changed his/her personal beliefs. For while Jesus indeed IS the servant of Allah and IS Allah's messenger, I could never say that and that only with regard to Jesus. I would also have to declare that Jesus is Lord. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Grace Seeker]

OK. I need some more help in understanding the concept behind bidah (sp????).


In reading various posts regarding a whole host of things from music to holidays in the forum, I understood bidah to refer to any type of innovation. Now, that in and of itself I found confusing because every day I see Muslims using new innovations -- i.e., inventions that didn't even exist in the time of Muhammad. But, in general the idea of innovation seemed to work as long as I did not try to include within that concept a restriction on innovations of science and the resulting applications of it. Then I came across these posts:

what is bidha..... [/B] most of ppl define it as anything new in islam. BUT to me the most correct definition is; to do anything wrong and u have in mind that i am not doing wrong, i am right. (ghalat kam ko sahee samj kay karna).
So Hazrat Aysha RA said the first bidha in islam was to eat full.~(paet bhar kay khana). similarly there is another Hidath ' shatian says that i attacked/harm human with sins but they attack and harm me with toba/repentence, when i see this, i indulge them in bidha and they think that they are doing right.'
i heard it is in hadith that ALLAH SWT doesnot accept the toba of bidha ppl.
now all of us think either we are doing something which is islamically not correct and we are taking it as correct.....? one more imp thing. its comes in hadith there are lot of fitna near to qiyama, suhaba RA asked, what is the sign that someone indulged in them, it was said that if he think something wrong as a right and he take something right/correct as a wrong..
i hope u will got much if u think on above lines.

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever does an action that is not in accordance with this matters of ours will have it rejected.” Narrated by Muslim, 1718.
And he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Beware of newly-invented matters, for every newly-invented matter is an innovation, and every innovation is a going astray.” Narrated by Abu Dawood, 4607; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood.

as for bidah well then it means somthng newly invented in the deen some act of worship that isnt prescribe by the prophet an act to get a closer to Allah in a manner that the prophet did do
Shaykh Muhammad ibn ‘Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: “According to sharee’ah, the definition is ‘Worshipping Allaah in ways that Allaah has not prescribed.’ If you wish you may say, ‘Worshipping Allaah in ways that are not those of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) or his rightly guided successors (al-khulafaa’ al-raashidoon).’”

The first definition is taken from the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

“Or have they partners with Allaah (false gods) who have instituted for them a religion which Allaah has not ordained?” [al-Shooraa 42:21]

The second definition is taken from the hadeeth of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), who said:

“I urge you to adhere to my way (Sunnah) and the way of the rightly-guided successors (al-khulafa’ al-raashidoon) who come after me. Hold fast to it and bite onto it with your eyeteeth [i.e., cling firmly to it], and beware of newly-invented matters.”

So everyone who worships Allaah in a manner that Allaah has not prescribed or in a manner that is not in accordance with the way of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) or his rightly-guided successors (al-khulafa’ al-raashidoon), is an innovator, whether that innovated worship has to do with the names and attributes of Allaah, or to do with His rulings and laws.

With regard to ordinary matters of habit and custom, these are not called bid’ah (innovation) in Islam, even though they may be described as such in linguistic terms. But they are not innovations in the religious sense, and these are not the things that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was warning us against.

And there is no such thing in Islam as bid’ah hasanah (good innovation).”

(Majmoo’ Fataawa Ibn ‘Uthaymeen, vol. 2, p. 291)

So, now I am more confused than before. No doubt part of my confusion stems from not having grown up with the terminology of Islam. But it seems that there is more then one type of bidah in Islam. Is that correct? And it seems like the whole concept of "innovation" as I understand that term really is not a good synonyn for "bidah". Can anyone suggest another way of expressing the concept of bidah in English? Also, if bidah is only related to innovations in worship, then why are other things, like the celebration of birthdays, considered bidah?

 

[Grace Seeker]

--bump--


(and also adding the necessary characters to make the post long enough to satisfy forum requirements)

 

[IAmZamzam]

As I understand it, bidah is doctrinal innovation, or any other kind of addendum to the word of God. The idea is that God's prophets were made to get it right the first time and it's wrong of us to fix what ain't broken.

 

[Grace Seeker]

OK. That actually helps a great deal. Is this understanding of doctrinal innovation clearly defined or a grey area? For instance, the original call to prayer was given by a man using his voice. And today it can be amplified. Can it be recorded? Can it be given by a woman? I don't recall seeing any "doctrine" stating any of the above, either pro or con. (There might be, I just haven't seen them.) How does one discern what is doctrine and what is habit?

 

[IAmZamzam]

The call to prayer must be made; that is doctrine. Maybe the words of it are too. The important thing is that people get to prayer, that they know it's about to happen. Unless there are any ahadith stating further rules, it's not innovation. If the scriptures don't establish it then changing it isn't changing God's word, although that isn't to say whether or not it might be sinful for other reasons.

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/Peace

.... the original call to prayer.......Can it be given by a woman?

During the time of Prophet Muhammed pbuh , no woman ever did this or Prophet pbuh did not encourage any woman to do that.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Salaam/Peace

During the time of Prophet Muhammed pbuh , no woman ever did this or Prophet pbuh did not encourage any woman to do that.

Which doesn't answer the question. During the time of Prophet Muhammed lots of different groups of people never did it that do today. And there are many other ways that one could cite how it is done differently than it was during Muhammed's time that are still not seen as being innovations today. Yet, others would be. I'm asking how it is that one determines one thing to be an innovation and another not? Yahya suggested that it is innovation as relates to doctrine that is proscribed, not just new things and new ways in general. That makes sense, but it led to my question about the grey area of how one determines what is and is not considered doctrinal?

The call to prayer is just one of many possible examples. I'm not so much interested in whether or not a woman can do it as, if it is determined that she cannot, how that decision is actually determined?

You imply that it is because it never happened during the time of Muhammed and he never encouraged it. But if that were the standard, that could be applied to so many things that are obviously accepted, that it doesn't seem to really provide an answer. There must be something else that leads people to apply that standard in one scenario and not in another. Can you help me to understand what that determining factor(s) is (are), please?