Things in Islam I am curious about...

[MustafaMc]

The people of Muhammad's time peace be upon him, consisted of pagans, who had inhereted some rites of the way of Ibrahim, Abraham, peace be upon him, they believed in the One ultimate creator, but associated partners to him and claimed they used them to get closer, Allah quotes them in the Qu'ran;...

Brother, do you know of any hadith where Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was exposed to the teachings of Judaism and/or Christianity? Is there another explanation for what is in the Quran rather than direct transmission through the Angel Jibrael as we believe? Could he have learned it from someone he came in contact with?

 

[Muslim Knight]

whats the deal with cutting off someone's hand if they steal? i read somehwere that it says to do that only if they do not repent first.....can someone clarify?

From Sahih Bukhari (a collection of authentic sayings of the Prophet)

Volumn 008, Book 081, Hadith Number 780.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By 'Aisha : The Prophet said, "The hand should be cut off for stealing something that is worth a quarter of a Dinar or more."

Volumn 008, Book 081, Hadith Number 781.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By 'Aisha : The Prophet said, "The hand of a thief should be cut off for stealing a quarter of a Dinar."

Volumn 008, Book 081, Hadith Number 783.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By 'Aisha : The hand of a thief was not cut off during the lifetime of the Prophet except for stealing something equal to a shield in value.

Volumn 008, Book 081, Hadith Number 786.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By 'Aisha : A thief's hand was not cut off for stealing something worth less than the price of a shield, whether a Turs or Hajafa (two kinds of shields), each of which was worth a (respectable) price.
​

Note: A dinar is a gold coin, most probably equivalent to an ounce of gold. During the time of the Prophet, an ounce of gold is equal to 40 dirham, or silver pieces, which buys you a camel.

Based on these hadiths, convicted thieves do not get their hands cut off if the amount stolen is of insignificant value. A person who commits petty theft in order to get food because of abject poverty may not be liable for such punishment. Such offender may be however, be liable to ta'azir punishment, that is probably lighter penalty based on the judge's own discretion.

Furthermore, it isn't as easy to convict a person as contrast to what is shown in Disney cartoon Aladdin where a suspected thief's hand is cut off right on the spot where the crime was committed. The Islamic Law, Shariah, has very strict rule of evidence which the judge and all must adhere to, in order to ensure that only the assuredly guilty can be punished, and the innocent is released.

 

[Muslim Knight]

Brother, do you know of any hadith where Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was exposed to the teachings of Judaism and/or Christianity? Is there another explanation for what is in the Quran rather than direct transmission through the Angel Jibrael as we believe? Could he have learned it from someone he came in contact with?

If he had been learning about Judaism or Christianity from scholars in his time, those scholars have not been mentioned, nor have they come out to put forth claims that they were the ones who have been teaching him about their religions.

 

[- Qatada -]

This is in regard to theft by brother Ansar Al-'Adl:

A couple of points to note on the punishment of amputation for theft:

a-the punishment will not be applied if there is any doubt as to the guilt of the suspect

b-the punishment will not be applied if the value of the stolen goods is
below something of great value -> determined by 'urf (customs of society)

c-the punishment will not be applied if the thief stole out of need/poverty

d-the punishment will not be applied if the goods weren't in proper storage (al-hirz) -> also determined by 'urf (customs of society)

e-the punishment will not be applied if the thief returns the goods and seeks forgiveness of the victim of the theft, before the case enters the judicial system

f-the punishment will not be applied if the culprit is not a sane adult and the crime was not committed under duress

g-the punishment will not be applied if the goods were not legally owned

h-the punishment will not be applied if it is a child stealing from parents or parents stealing from children or one spuse from another according to the opinion of all jurists except Imaam Malik.

i-the punishment will not be applied if the person is permitted to enter the place from where he stole because in such a case there is no proper custody (al-hirz)

j-according to Imaam Abu Hanifa the punishment is not applied to the non-muslim living in the muslim state, however Imaam Shafi', Imaam Maalik and Imaam Ahmad ibn Hanbal have said that it is.​

If the theft passes these restrictions, then it recieves the hadd punishment of hand amputation. Any theft that does not meet these restrictions recieves ta'azir (discretionary punishment). In such cases the Islamic society would most likely follow case/common law by rule of precedent where like cases are treated alike.

Coming to the scenario where amputation is applied in theft, it is interesting to note the effect this has on society. I'd like to quote some parts of a discussion at a conference of the Saudi scholars:

At this point Dr. Dawalbi made a comment:

"I have been in this country for seven years", he said, "and I never saw of heard of, any amputation of the hand for stealing. This is because the crime is extremely rare. So, all that remains of that punishment is its harshness, which has made it possible for those who are tempted to steal, to keep their hands whole. Formerly, when these regions were ruled by the french-inspired Penal Code, under the Ottoman Empire, pilgrims travelling between the two Holy Cities - Mecca and Medina, could not feel secure for their purse or their life, unless they had a strong escort.
But when this country became the Saudi Kingdom, the Qur'anic Law was enforced, crime immediately disappeared. A traveller, then, could journey, not only between the Holy Cities, but even from Al-Dahran on the Gulf to Jeddah on the Red Sea, and traverse a distance of more than one thousand and five hundred kilometres across the desert all alone in his private car, without harbouring any fear or worry about his life or property, be it worth millions of dollars, and he be a complete foreigner."​

The Saudi Delegation resumed:

"In this manner, in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, where Islamic law is enforced, state money is transferred from one town to another, from one bank to another, in an ordinary car, without any escort or protection, but the car driver. Tell me, Gentlemen: in any of your Western States, would you be ready to transfer money from one bank to another, in any of your capitals without the protection of a strong police force and the necessary number of armoured cars?
...Only here, Gentlemen, in this country where Islamic Law is enforced, the American Minister of Foreign Affairs, Mr. William Rogers, during his visit last year, could, he and his suit, dispense with the armoured cars, which had been carried in by special planes, and which accompanied them in their tour of more than ten countries. Only here, Gentlemen, did the Government of the Kingdom not allow its visitors to go around in these cars. Eventually, Mr. Rogers spontaneously declined the guard of honour usually placed by the Government at the disposal of their foreign guests; he walked through the soulks by himself, and confessed that, in this Kingdom, and in this Kingdom alone, one had such a feeling of security that one had no more need of a gurad.
...Stealing is almost unknown in our Kingdom, when people, in the great Capitals of Western countries under secular regimes, have no more security for their luves of their possessions.​

(Doi, Shari'ah: The Islamic Law, Ta Ha Publishers 1984, pp. 260-261)​

Personally, I know many people who have lived for ten or twenty years in Saudi Arabia and they have testified that they have never come across such a case of amputation for theft. When you implement such a balanced code, theft becomes un heard of.

Callum, I want you to look at this UN survey of burglaries between 1998-2000. Tell me who is at the bottom of the list? Who is at the top?

1. United States 2,099,700 burglaries (1999)
2. United Kingdom 836,027 burglaries (2000)
.
.
.
54. Saudi Arabia 11 (2000)!!!!

Which law is more successful?


These are concrete statistics here, Callum. There is no doubt when the UN conducts a survey and the country implementing Islamic law has the fewest burglaries, it demonstrates which is the most successful law is this regard.
​

http://www.islamicboard.com/70478-post3.html

http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-islam/1557-crime-punishment-islam-2.html

 

[- Qatada -]

If he had been learning about Judaism or Christianity from scholars in his time, those scholars have not been mentioned, nor have they come out to put forth claims that they were the ones who have been teaching him about their religions.

:salamext:


I've been over the Seerahs by different authors, especially the two famous ones of Ibn Isshaaq and Ibn Kathir [Al Bidaaya wan-Nihaaya - the Beginning to the End] and i havn't heard of any narrations which mention that Allaah's Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him) had any contact with jews or christians within Makkah.

And the shocking part is that most of the stories in regard to the previous Prophets of the Children of Israel were revealed within Makkah; i.e. Surah Nuh [Noah], Surah Ibrahim [Abraham], Surah Yusuf [Joseph], Surah Yunus [Jonah], Surah Maryam [Mary], The many stories of Prophet Moses (i.e. Surah Qasas, Ta-Ha etc.)


The majority of the Surahs' (chapters) on the hereafter, Day of Judgement, Paradise, hellfire were also revealed within Makkah [mainly the 30th Juzz/Para.] So this is solid proof that he (peace be upon him) never had any contact with Jews and Christians within Makkah. Otherwise the elite of the Quraysh, his opposition would be the first of people to tell this to others since they wanted to prove the Qur'an wrong.

And Allaah knows best.

 

[Muslim Knight]

^ That's what I meant. No evidence that Prophet Muhammad had been learning from some scholars. So these allegations have been answered.

 

[Grace Seeker]

In Medinah, which the Prophet moved to aftere more than a decade or so aftr the start of his Mission, there were Jewish tribes there.

How much of the Qur'an was received before and how much was received after Muhammad moved to Medinah?

 

[- Qatada -]

How much of the Qur'an was received before and how much was received after Muhammad moved to Medinah?

The Prophethood was for 23years, the first 13years was the Makkan period, and the Medinan Period was for 10years.


You can visit this link, and whenever you click on any chapter/surah, you can see at the top whether it is a Makkan Surah or Madani surah:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/



Peace.

 

[Grace Seeker]

The Prophethood was for 23years, the first 13years was the Makkan period, and the Medinan Period was for 10years.


You can visit this link, and whenever you click on any chapter/surah, you can see at the top whether it is a Makkan Surah or Madani surah:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/



Peace.

Thanks. One quickly sees that the Surah's are not in the order they were revealed in -- though I already knew that much. How was it decided what order to list them in in the Qur'an? Are there any Surahs that are made from revelations combined from both Makkah and Madani? Were any received in the midst of Muhammed's travels?

 

[- Qatada -]

Thanks. One quickly sees that the Surah's are not in the order they were revealed in -- though I already knew that much. How was it decided what order to list them in in the Qur'an?

Allaah's Messenger would review the Qur'an with Jibreel (Gabriel) once every year. At the year when he passed away - they went over it twice, and it may have been done within this time.

Are there any Surahs that are made from revelations combined from both Makkah and Madani?

Yes. This is actually a miracle in of itself since the Qur'an is revealed over a period of 23years, yet there is no contradiction whatsoever within this time span for any of the verses, yet its eloquence and message is pure and flowing even though a certain verse was revealed many years later, while having that perfect link with the previous ones.

Were any received in the midst of Muhammed's travels?

The Qur'an was revealed in different situations and circumstances, so it could have been at any moment. However, most of the Surahs were revealed within Makkah and Medina since this is where Allaah's Messenger remained for nearly all of his life. I don't think he actually settled anywhere apart from these two cities within his lifetime. And Allaah knows best.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Allaah's Messenger would review the Qur'an with Jibreel (Gabriel) once every year. At the year when he passed away - they went over it twice, and it may have been done within this time.



Yes. This is actually a miracle in of itself since the Qur'an is revealed over a period of 23years, yet there is no contradiction whatsoever within this time span for any of the verses, yet its eloquence and message is pure and flowing even though a certain verse was revealed many years later, while having that perfect link with the previous ones.

Would this annual review include revising of what had been previously revealed? Or was it just a sort of proof checking of the material thus far revealed?



Were content of revelations in any way tied to the temporal experiences of Muhammad (pbuh) and the Ummah? For instance, I am thinking of the views toward Jews based on the up and down nature of the relationship Muhammad experienced with some of them.

 

[- Qatada -]

Would this annual review include revising of what had been previously revealed? Or was it just a sort of proof checking of the material thus far revealed?

Both i think. And Allaah knows best.

Were content of revelations in any way tied to the temporal experiences of Muhammad (pbuh) and the Ummah? For instance, I am thinking of the views toward Jews based on the up and down nature of the relationship Muhammad experienced with some of them.

Yeah, the affairs of the ummah - the believers, the hypocrites, the people of the Book (Jews, and some Christians) in Medina etc.

However, most of the ahadith and recorded history explains the personal experiences the believers had with the people, yet Allaah talks about the people as a whole within the Qur'an most of the time, in a general sense more than a specific sense.

 

[Kashnowe]

this says Mohammed did have close contact with someone who had jewish and christian texts memorized...

Then the Prophet repeated the words with a trembling heart. He returned to Khadijah from Mount Hira and said: "Wrap me up! Wrap me up!" She wrapped him in a garment until his fear was dispelled. He told Khadijah what had occurred and that he was becoming either a soothsayer or one smitten with madness. She replied: "Allah forbid! He will surely not let such a thing happen, for you speak the truth, you are faithful in trust, you bear the afflictions of the people, you spend in good works what you gain in trade, you are hospitable and you assist your fellow men. Have you seen anything terrible?" Muhammad replied: "Yes," and told her what he had seen. Whereupon, Khadijah said: "Rejoice, O dear husband and be cheerful. He is Whose hands stands Khadijah's life bears witness to the truth of this fact, that you will be the prophet to this people." Then she arose and went to her cousin Waraqa Ibn Naufal, who was old and blind and who knew the Scriptures of the Jews and Christians, and is stated to have translated them into Arabic. When she told him of what she had heard, he cried out: "Holy! Holy! Verily, this is the Namus (The Holy Spirit) who came to Moses. He will be the prophet of his people. Tell him this and bid him to be brave at heart." When the two men met subsequently in the street, the blind old student of the Jewish and Christian Scriptures spoke of his faith and trust: "I swear by Him in Who hand Waraqa's life is, Allah has chosen you to be the prophet of this people. They will call you a liar, they will persecute you, they will banish you, and they will fight against you. Oh, that I could live to those days. I would fight for these." And he kissed him on the forehead.

http://www.islamicboard.com/prophet-muhammad-p/1715-biography-prophet-muhammad-saws.html

 

[- Qatada -]

Yes, can you tell me where in the narration it's mentioned that he spoke about the whole history of the Children of Israel, the message of Jesus son of Mary etc? Within such a short meeting.

And do you even know what context that situation took place in?



Also quoting from your text, let's see what Waraqa ibn Nawfal said:

When she told him of what she had heard, he cried out: "Holy! Holy! Verily, this is the Namus (The Holy Spirit) who came to Moses. He will be the prophet of his people. Tell him this and bid him to be brave at heart." When the two men met subsequently in the street, the blind old student of the Jewish and Christian Scriptures spoke of his faith and trust: "I swear by Him in Who hand Waraqa's life is, Allah has chosen you to be the prophet of this people. They will call you a liar, they will persecute you, they will banish you, and they will fight against you. Oh, that I could live to those days. I would fight for these."

Does that seem like the whole history of the Children of Israel to you? Or even the story of Noah? Or any other message besides the fact that he said that you are the Chosen One?




Regards.

 

[Kashnowe]

Originally Posted by MustafaMc
Brother, do you know of any hadith where Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was exposed to the teachings of Judaism and/or Christianity? Is there another explanation for what is in the Quran rather than direct transmission through the Angel Jibrael as we believe? Could he have learned it from someone he came in contact with?

i was answering \the original question. so

Fi_Sabilillah: yes, can you tell me where in the narration it's mentioned that he spoke about the whole history of the Children of Israel, the message of Jesus son of Mary etc? Within such a short meeting.

nope i can't do that. it doesn't say that mohammed only spoke to this man once. he could have had talks about judaism and chrisitianity with this fellow every night over dinner for all i know. it implies that Waraqa Ibn Naufal was very educated in both faiths. i understand you have a biography of mohammed but it doesn't account for every second of his life.

And do you even know what context that situation took place in?

all i know is what i read from the link i was given (http://www.islamicboard.com/prophet-muhammad-p/1715-biography-prophet-muhammad-saws.html ) and then i saw the question and remembered that i had read this just last night and i thought i might interject. i'm pretty sure i understood it all though.

Does that seem like the whole history of the Children of Israel to you? Or even the story of Noah? Or any other message besides the fact that he said that you are the Chosen One?

i really don't get your point here.

 

[Kashnowe]

i am wondering if there is anywhere in the quran or hadith that speaks about incest, homoesxuality, sodomy, and petophilia.

in islam does a husband have to consumte a marriage in order for it to be valid? (i'm wondering about mohammed and that 9 year old but please don't get defensive i'll leave my comments about that one to myself)

i hope my questions don't creep anyone out

 

[جوري]

Age of consent in the states just last century was 7 in some states like Delaware

American reformers were shocked to discover that the laws of most states set the age of consent at the age of ten or twelve, and in one state, Delaware, the age of consent was only seven. Women reformers and advocates of social purity initiated a campaign in 1885 to petition legislators to raise the legal age of consent to at least sixteen

http://www.binghamton.edu/womhist/teacher/aoc.htm

raising the age of consent even here in the states is a very modern concept... let alone 14 centuries ago, that was simply the norm.. Aisha PBUH, was engaged to be wed to someone else before her marriage to prophet Mohammed PBUH.... the rest of your queries I am sure can be answered by browsing the forum.

peace

 

[- Qatada -]

Like sis PurestAmbrosia said, it was the norms at that time.

Some modern female authors say:

Puberty is defined as the age or period at which a person is first capable of sexual reproduction, in other eras of history, a rite or celebration of this landmark event was a part of the culture. (Rites of Passage: Puberty, by Sue Curewitz Arthen)


"Getting your period" marks a rite of passage for young girls entering womanhood. (From the Women's Resource Center)


​

Another contemporary reference relating marriage age to puberty is an article on Central Africa, which says:

. . . women marry soon after puberty4.


​

There are many other references which should prove to any intelligent person what anthropologists and historians already know: in centuries past, people were considered ready for marriage when they reached puberty.


It should be mentioned that from an Islamic point of view, many problems in society today can be traced back to the abandonment of early marriage. Due to the way that Almighty God has created man and woman, i.e., with strong sexual desires, people should marry young. In the past, this was even more true since life expectancy was very low (i.e. you were considered "old" if you made it to 40!) Not only does marriage provide a legal outlet for people with strong sexual desires, but it usually produces more children. One of the main purposes of marriage is to produce children -"be fruitful and multiply" as the Bible says (Genesis 8:17). This was especially important in the past, when people did not live as long as they do now and the infant morality rate was much higher.



Additionally, an article entitled Puberty in Girls by an Australian government Public Health organization, says:

The first sign of puberty is usually a surge of growth: you become taller; your breasts develop; hair begins to grow in the pubic area and under the arms. This may start from 10 years to 14 years - even earlier for some and later for others.
​

An article Physical Changes in Girls During Puberty has this to say:

During puberty, a girl's body changes, inside and out, into the body of a woman. The changes don't come all at once, and they don't happen at the same time for everybody. Most girls start showing physical changes around age 11, but everyone has her own internal schedule for development. It's normal for changes to start as early as 8 or 9 years of age, or not until 13 or 14. Even if nothing looks or feels different yet, the changes may have already begun inside your body.


​

Many will readily agree with the information above, but still might harbour reservations about whether a marriage to an older man could be happy for such a young girl. Putting aside the modern Western notions of "happiness" for a moment, the marriage of cAishah and the Prophet(P) was a mutually happy and loving one as in expressed in numerous hadîth and seerah books. That happy marriages occur between people with a fairly large difference in ages is known among psychologists:

When the differences (in ages) is great, e.g. exceeds fifteen to twenty years, the results may be happier. The marriage of an elderly (senescent) not, of course, an old (senile) man to a quite young girl, is often very successful and harmonious. The bride is immediately introduced and accustomed to moderate sexual intercourse.7

​

In his comments on the ahadith in Sahîh Muslim which mention cAishah's young marriage to the Prophet(P), cAbdul-Hamîd Siddiqî shows three other reasons for this marriage:

cAishah's marriage to the Prophet Muhammad(P) at an early age allowed her to be an eyewitness to the personal details of his life and carry them on to the succeeding generations. By being both spiritually and physically near to the Prophet(P), the marriage prepared 'Aishah to be an example to all Muslims, especially women, for all times. She developed into a spiritual teacher and scholar, since she was remarkably intelligent and wise. Her qualities help support the Prophet's work and further the cause of Islam. cAishah, the Mother of the Believers, was not only a model for wives and mothers, but she was also a commentator on the Qur'ân, an authority on hadîth and knowledgeable in Islamic Law. She narrated at least 2,210 ahâdîth that give Muslims valuable insights into the Final Prophet's daily life and behaviour, thus preserving the Sunnah of Muhammad(P).

more:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Polemics/aishah.html

more info can be found here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutations/5337-marriage-aisha-prophet-pbuh.html


​

The marriage was consumated when she had reached puberty.

Incest is forbidden. And so is homsexuality, this is the group of people Prophet Lut [Lot] went to.

Prophet Lut (Lot)

Allah the Almighty revealed: The people of Lut (those dwelt in the towns of Sodom in Palestine) belied the Messengers when their brother Lut said to them: "Will you not fear Allah and obey Him? Verily! I am a trustworthy Messenger to you. SO fear Allah, keep your duty to Him, and obey me. No reward do I ask of you for it (my Message of Islamic Monotheism) my reward is only from the Lord of the Alamin (mankind, jinn and all that exists). Go you in unto the males of the Alamin (mankind), and leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your wives? Nay, you are a trespassing people!"

They said: "If you cease not, O Lut! Verily, you will be one of those who are driven out!"

HE said: "I am indeed, of those who disapprove with severe anger and fury your (this evil) action (of sodomy). My Lord! Save me and my family from what they do."

SO We saved him and his family, all except an old woman (this wife) among those who remained behind. (26:160-171 Quran)​

 

[- Qatada -]

nope i can't do that. it doesn't say that mohammed only spoke to this man once. he could have had talks about judaism and chrisitianity with this fellow every night over dinner for all i know. it implies that Waraqa Ibn Naufal was very educated in both faiths. i understand you have a biography of mohammed but it doesn't account for every second of his life.

all i know is what i read from the link i was given (http://www.islamicboard.com/prophet-muhammad-p/1715-biography-prophet-muhammad-saws.html ) and then i saw the question and remembered that i had read this just last night and i thought i might interject. i'm pretty sure i understood it all though.

Infact, it's explained in the Seerah. If you've studied it, you'll realise that Waraqa ibn Nawfal actually died after God's final Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him) recieved the first revelation.


The first verses revealed were:

[media]http://quran.jalisi.com/096alaq_01.mp3[/media]http://quran.jalisi.com/096alaq_01.mp3 [Recitor: Sa'ad Al Ghamdi]

​

Read in the name of your Lord Who created.

Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood:

Proclaim! And thy Lord is Most Bountiful,-


He Who taught (the use of) the pen,-

Taught man that which he knew not.

Nay, but verily man is rebellious


In that he looketh upon himself as self-sufficient.

Surely to your Lord is the return.


[Qur'an Alaq (the clot) 96: 1-8]


​

After the first revelation when he said that i wish i could help you when they drive you out of your land, he said that due to his old age and he knew he would die soon - and we know that every messenger who has been sent to his people has been threatened to be driven out of his land. After Waraqa had died, the believers would ask each other - would Waraqa really go to paradise?

They were wondering this because he had been alive while God never had asked His Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him) to convey the message. The first verses revealed were a sign that he is the Prophet, but to be a Messenger is a rank higher when you have to convey the message. And this only happened when the following verses were revealed;

O you (Muhammad) enveloped (in garments)!

Arise and warn!

And your Lord (Allah) magnify!

And your garments purify!

And keep away from Ar-Rujz (the idols)!


[Qur'an 74: 1-5]


​

People were totally confused about Waraqa ibn Nawfal, and whether he was truelly a believer or not because they thought he had died before recieving the message clearly. There was even controversy among the companions themselves! So God's final Messenger (peace be upon him) clarified this for them:

Al-Haakim reported with a saheeh [authentic/strong] isnaad (chain of narration) from 'Aa'ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) that the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) said, "Do not slander Waraqah ibn Nawfal for I have seen that he will have one or two gardens in Paradise"

[Saheeh al-Jaami as-Sagheer, 6/1534, no. 7197]

​

So if he had died right after the first revelation, i don't think he could have narrated the whole history of the children of Israeel, the lives of all the Prophets, the aspects of the Day of Judgement, paradise and hellfire etc.

i really don't get your point here.

A third of the Qur'an is on the lives of the previous Prophets, i don't think all this could have been explained in depth by one man in one night.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Would Islam say that the norms of a society are the standards by which that society is to be judge if that society does not possess the Qur'an? Or by what standards does one determine that which is and is not morally acceptable in a society that does not yet have the Qur'an available to it?

(Obviously I am not talking about 21st Century western cultures, as they have the Qur'an available to them even if they subscribe to something else.)