Things in Islam I am curious about...

[Grace Seeker]

Coolonka: Billy Graham loved telly, It made him millions. Robert Tilton likewise!

Just a small correction. Billy Graham made millions from the sale of his books. TV has always been an expense for him which he has paid for through his book sales.

Btw, Billy Graham is quite liberal with his money. I once attended a week-long seminar he was hosting injunction with one of his many crusades. From his own personal resources, not those of his ministry, he provided scholarships to every pastor who was attending the event for the first time. In my case that included registration, hotel costs, and mileage for travel for both me and my wife. There were about 120 of us at this event, and he personally paid for over half of us, and not once the whole time did he take up an offering or attempt to sell us anything. In fact, I left there with a half suitcase of free stuff that the ministry (not Billy Graham personally) gave away for us to use in our local churches.

 

[Grace Seeker]

How the heck are people supposed to interpret 4000,2000 or 1400 year old documents in the light of anything but the present day context? We are not 4000 years old and a few things have changed since then. Things have changed drastically in the 39 years i've been around. if I try to apply a story from 1973 to present day, it's awkward. Russia isnt pointing nukes at us, punk was invented and the schoolchilden are not having midnight feasts in dormitorys at bording schools or lashings and lashings of ginger beer on woodland picnics.

To try and apply ancient values to a developing species leads to nutty results. I could start dressing in robes and slaughtering goats but i really dont think my mindset would change much.

I didn't say that we don't eventually interpret them in the light of today, but we have to try to read and understand them first as the original audience was meant to, or we will simply misunderstand.


You illustration of the Cold War is a good case in point. If one tries to understand Kennedy saying, "I am a Berliner" in the modern day scenario, it means hardly anything. But understand it in terms of the erecting of a wall around Berlin in an attempt to starve it into submission and capitulation to Moscow, and it takes on a completely different meaning. That process of understanding what the people listening to Kennedy would have heard, not what some 16 year old David Hasselhoff groupie would get out of it, is what I am talking about.

 

[Mushahida]

Sahih al-Bukhari recorded,

Narrated 'Urwa on the authority of 'Aisha: On the days of Mina, (11th, 12th, and 13th of Dhul-Hijjah) Abu Bakr came to her while two young girls were beating the tambourine and the Prophet was lying covered with his clothes. Abu Bakr scolded them and the Prophet uncovered his face and said to Abu Bakr, "Leave them, for these days are the days of 'Id and the days of Mina." 'Aisha further said, "Once the Prophet was screening me and I was watching the display of black slaves in the Mosque and ('Umar) scolded them. The Prophet said, 'Leave them. O Bani Arfida! (carry on), you are safe (protected)'." Volume 2, Book 15, Number 103.

Sahih Muslim recorded,

'A'isha reported: The Messenger of Allah (way peace be upon him) came (in my apartment) while there were two girls with me singing the song of the Battle of Bu'ath. He lay down on the bed and turned away his face. Then came Abu Bakr and he scolded me and said: Oh! this musical instrument of the devil in the house of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him)! The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) turned towards him and said: Leave them alone. And when he (the Holy Prophet) became unattentive, I hinted them and they went out, and it was the day of 'Id and negroes were playing with shields and spears. (I do not remember) whether I asked the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) or whether he said to me if I desired to see (that sport). I said: Yes. I stood behind him with his face parallel to my face, and he said: O Banu Arfada, be busy (in your sports) till I was satiated. He said (to me): Is that enough? I said: Yes. Upon this he asked me to go. Book 004, Number 1942.

At the arrival of the Holy Prophet to Madinah the people sang and beated with drums and this is also reported in Sahih al Bukhari.

Ma'Salaama

 

[barney]

I didn't say that we don't eventually interpret them in the light of today, but we have to try to read and understand them first as the original audience was meant to, or we will simply misunderstand.


You illustration of the Cold War is a good case in point. If one tries to understand Kennedy saying, "I am a Berliner" in the modern day scenario, it means hardly anything. But understand it in terms of the erecting of a wall around Berlin in an attempt to starve it into submission and capitulation to Moscow, and it takes on a completely different meaning. That process of understanding what the people listening to Kennedy would have heard, not what some 16 year old David Hasselhoff groupie would get out of it, is what I am talking about.

Ok, but i maintain it's impossible. (at least to do with a shred of accuracy). The documents have also the added problem of being written and rewritten tens of thousands of times until the printing press was invented, each time getting diluted and altered. Then translating into hundreds of different languages and hundreds of different versions. Thats all before the internet which has magnified that incredibly.

To get back to the example, I can remember the tory manifesto for Poll Tax and how Thatcher said that people were misunderstanding it. I was around then and I can remember how it was interpreted.
In 2780AD when a copy of the Manifesto is found by archeologists, they will read it and stand in awe of the justness and equality of the great Margeret, leader of the Brittons, and reading their ancient copy of the Daily Mail, write of how the people thought it was a fantastic idea, yet "there were a few dissenters , for they were unenlightened, and they were made to pay for their dissention by community service orders"

 

[barney]

Just a small correction. Billy Graham made millions from the sale of his books. TV has always been an expense for him which he has paid for through his book sales.

Btw, Billy Graham is quite liberal with his money. .

Ahh, OK fair enough, but he's not short of a bob or two.
Robert Tilton is superb..speaking in tounges.."da doodop doo-Godsaysathousanddollars-doodopdoo" Gotta love that guy!

 

[snakelegs]

The problem with that sort of interpretation is that you are taking the present day context and applying it to a first century document. That is called eisegesis and nearly always leads to bad interpretation -- whether doing so with the New Testament or any other document. To properly understand this text, you must first understand it like the 1st century audience would have, and then subsequent to that seek to apply it to your life. But begin with understand in its context, then interpretation and last application for today -- not the other way around. Image meant something slightly different to Paul than what you think of in terms of images on a TV or movie screen and it is more than just the simple fact that those technologies had not been invented yet.

this is an important point that i think is often missed. you can not judge something from hundreds or thousands of years ago by the standards of 2007,
no matter how tempting it is.
same applies to judging a culture by the standards of your own.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Ok, but i maintain it's impossible. (at least to do with a shred of accuracy). The documents have also the added problem of being written and rewritten tens of thousands of times until the printing press was invented, each time getting diluted and altered. Then translating into hundreds of different languages and hundreds of different versions. Thats all before the internet which has magnified that incredibly.

Actually the documentation of the New Testament is quite excellent. We have whole collections that go all the way back to the 3rd, even the 2nd century. And there are scraps of some papyri that date to within a generation or two of the writing of a few books, such as the Gospel of John. Plus nearly all of them are extensively quoted in other first and second century Christian writing (which is one of the reasons it is silly when people try to give late dates to some of their writings). So, despite all of the copying, we are able to ascertain with fairly good reliablity what the accurate text is. The whole process is has become something known as the science of textual criticism. I you would like to learn more about the process check out An Introduction to New Testament Textual Criticism.

So, there may be many more copies made, but when we make them, we just keep referring back to these early copies of the original text and avoid the error of copies of copies of copies of copies you are so concerned about.

 

[barney]

Actually the documentation of the New Testament is quite excellent. We have whole collections that go all the way back to the 3rd, even the 2nd century. And there are scraps of some papyri that date to within a generation or two of the writing of a few books, such as the Gospel of John. Plus nearly all of them are extensively quoted in other first and second century Christian writing (which is one of the reasons it is silly when people try to give late dates to some of their writings). So, despite all of the copying, we are able to ascertain with fairly good reliablity what the accurate text is. The whole process is has become something known as the science of textual criticism. I you would like to learn more about the process check out An Introduction to New Testament Textual Criticism.

So, there may be many more copies made, but when we make them, we just keep referring back to these early copies of the original text and avoid the error of copies of copies of copies of copies you are so concerned about.

Any minuite now I'm gonna cut n paste up that list of 400 different Bible versions! Dont make me do that!

 

[Grace Seeker]

Any minuite now I'm gonna cut n paste up that list of 400 different Bible versions! Dont make me do that!

Go ahead and do it. It won't change a thing. All 400 of them go back to these texts I am talking about. Just like 400 branches on an oak tree all come from one acron. Each may hold its own unique acorn, but they all have the same DNA as the original acorn had.

 

[Hemoo]

as christians (in my opinion) can get a little bit too devoted to images of Christ, (when nobody has a clue what he looked like).

you are right in that, i heared that the black (african) christians has pictures of jesus as a black man.

Reading your post , It appears to me that Mohammed was talking about images that were Idolised. So sticking a poster of a Ferrari sports car on the wall would be Idol worship. (or would it? if you diddnt pray to the car for guidence or intercession?) Ordinary everyday images are not neccessarily Idol worship. Is this why TV is allowed in Islamic states, (apart from the talibani afganistan, (somalia too?))

no, not all pictures are forbidden in islam.
muslims can take photos of nature as mountains, trees, seas, etc and we can hang it on the walls as posters or make an album of these natural scenes images.

only the pictures (especially painting with hands and statues and sculptures) of humans and animals is forbidden as it is stated in the following hadith :

in Sahih Muslim Book 024, Hadith Number 5272:

Muslim b. Subaih reported: I was with Masriuq in the house which had the portrayals of Mary (hadrat Maryan). Thereupon Masriuq said: These are portraits of Kisra. I said: No, these are of Mary. Masruq said: I heard Abdullah b, Mas'ud as saying Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) had said: The most grievously tormented people on the Day of Resurrection would be the painters of pictures. (Muslim said): I read this before Nasr b. 'Ali at-Jahdami and he read it before other narrators, the last one being Ibn Sa'id b Abl at Hasan that a person came to Ibn 'Abbas and said: I am the person who paints pictures; give me a religious verdict about them. He (Ibn 'Abbas) said to him: Come near me (still further). He came near him so much so that he placed his hand upon his head and said: I am going to narrate to you what I heard from Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him). I heard him say: All the painters who make pictures would be in the fire of Hell. The soul will be breathed in every picture prepared by him and it shall punish him in the Hell, and he (Ibn 'Abbas) said: If you have to do it at all, then paint the pictures of trees and lifeless things; and Nasr b. 'Ali confirmed it.

it is important to say that not all the muslim scholars agree upon the verdict prohibiting of the electronic photographs (taken with camera) because it is a matter of IGTIHAD (don't know the meaning in english but may be the word diligence is close to the real meaning)

also scholars say that it is peremited to be photographed in cases of necessity (such as the ID, Passport, etc)

Would a mirror constitute a Image? (self worship?)

the mirror is not like the painting (or photograph) because there are differences such as the picture in the mirror is not fixed and it changes if you move from it but the painted picture is fixed on the paper and it is stick to it even if the painted person is already dead.

and as far as i know the islamic laws did not forbid the mirrors.

any way the scholars have a lot of talking about this matter and i hope what i said is beneficial.

 

[barney]

Go ahead and do it. It won't change a thing. All 400 of them go back to these texts I am talking about. Just like 400 branches on an oak tree all come from one acron. Each may hold its own unique acorn, but they all have the same DNA as the original acorn had.

Even Mormonism!
Some acorns are big some small, some green some brown some pointy some knobbely, some chewed up by (reformist) squirrels. They are indeed all unique.....which goes to prove that two people can look at the same thing at the same time from the same angle and still see totally different interpretations of a sentence.....

Which rather Ironically ...proves my point

 

[barney]

muslims can take photos of nature as mountains, trees, seas,

But...ummm..they were made by Allah as well!

 

[Hemoo]

But...ummm..they were made by Allah as well!

so what is your point?!.

for a muslim the matter is it is prohibited by islamic laws or is it permissible.

any way i'm gonna sleep now and may be we can have further talk later.

 

[barney]

so what is your point?!.

for a muslim the matter is it is prohibited by islamic laws or is it permissible.

any way i'm gonna sleep now and may be we can have further talk later.

My point is that the objection was that images of things created by allah could not be reproduced. Anyway, I accept that It isnt a mainstream veiw.

Have a good sleep.
Peace

 

[Malaikah]

My point is that the objection was that images of things created by allah could not be reproduced. Anyway, I accept that It isnt a mainstream veiw.

It only applies to things that had a soul, not all living things. Trees are living, they have no soul.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Even Mormonism!
Some acorns are big some small, some green some brown some pointy some knobbely, some chewed up by (reformist) squirrels. They are indeed all unique.....which goes to prove that two people can look at the same thing at the same time from the same angle and still see totally different interpretations of a sentence.....

Which rather Ironically ...proves my point

I don't see how. Perhaps my anaolgy was poorly drawn if you think it does. The point being, that while we have 400, or 1000, or even 1 million translations of the Bible available, we still have only one Bible. That Bible would be the collection of all the original autographs if they were available. They are not, but we don't have to look at the millions of copies in existence today and say that they are each a different Bible. They are each perhaps a different translation, a different printing. But they have the same root, the original Bible and we can get reliably close to what those texts were by the process described in the link on textual criticism.

Groups like Mormons aren't on the same tree, because they have a different root, the Book of Mormon and other writings by Joseph Smith.

 

[aadil77]

Can we change the topic?
Is there anything else you are curious about in islam?

:yawn:

 

[Grace Seeker]

Any given reason why the months start with the waxing crescent moon, rather than say the full moon, the new moon, or some other phase?

 

[Woodrow]

Any given reason why the months start with the waxing crescent moon, rather than say the full moon, the new moon, or some other phase?

Perhaps because it may be possible to readly recognize the first crescent. ie Last night no moon was visible, tonight there is a faint crescent, first crescent of the month.

A full moon is nearly impossible to the naked eye. You have about a 4 day period during which to the naked eye it looks full. But, it is only full on the 14th night past the last new moon. typical guy on the street would go crazy trying to keep up with the date.

 

[Dhulqarnaeen]

Dear Dhulqarnaeen,

I'm sorry, but you're about 29 pages behind. The questions I posed have been asked and answered many times, but I thank you for your contributions as well.


I don't have any proof that you would accept for my views, as my views lay outside of the Quran and thus so do my "proofs". Suffice it to say, that using those books that I accept as authoritative and the standards of interpreting them that are generally accepted, there is nothing stated in them which would outlaw music. Though anything can be turned by the devil and corrupted for evil purposes, and no doubt this has been done with some music, I don't think we can make a blanket statement about all music.

You of course are free, since you use a different authority than I, to believe otherwise. I grant you your freedom to live thusly and hope you will grant me my freedom to live as I understand as morally acceptable.

Ups...I thought I replied this thread in the first page And today I tried to lookout my reply and I found 33 pages!!?:skeleton: I thought I replied in first page :rollseyes
Yes, your answer is understandable, and in Islam, someone who have knowledge is different with someone who dont have knowledge. And in Quran Allah praise men who have knowldge so much. And the different between someone who have knowledge ('alim) and who doesnt (jahil) is, an 'alim will know the result of something which will happen. For example, if we see one area like music, or couples out freely and all, then an 'alim will notice the result of these all that this can lead to destruction BEFORE the destruction happen. But someone who is jahil, will realize that all theyre doing is wrong after the bad result of all happened. And they will say "now I see all I have been doing after all this time is wrong", a jahil will know all they do is wrong after all destruction happen, and its rather too late actually.
And yes, your opinion lay outside of the quran, and thats why your opinion can be included in to a jahil's opinion. Cause Allah with His hollybook (Quran) have guide mankind to avoid all bad things which will happen to them, and He know everything that have happened, which is happening and that will happen in the future, He know everything. And He know what best for us. And who are we? :rollseyes
And the bad result of music can be seen clearly if you have knowledge. And nowadays even a muslim cant realize that music is haram. Its because their distance to Islamic laws which based with Quran and sunnah and explanation of salaful ummah, the companions of Rasulullah. All Mahdzab in Islam said Music is haram, no mahdzab say music is all right. Believe me, if something is ok, then Islam will be in the first line to support it and if somehting is bad then Islam is the first religion to forbid it. No religion like Islam. If we practise all teaching in Islam, we will life peacefully. We can read the history when Rasulullah still alive, they life peacefully, no crime and prostitution, all citizen life peacefully and non muslim can life with muslim peacefully. And they have reached the highest level of knowledge when Christian still in the dark ages and doubting their own religion. And that time no MUSIC, and singers will be punished.