Things in Islam I am curious about...

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

Given that, may I ask you (as I have Yusuf above) to reflect on the following:

I think I should have clarified a bit further what I was talking about in my last post. My apologies for not being clearer.

O Prophet! When believing women come to thee to take the oath of fealty to thee, that they will not associate in worship any other thing whatever with Allah, that they will not steal, that they will not commit adultery (or fornication), that they will not kill their children, that they will not utter slander, intentionally forging falsehood, and that they will not disobey thee in any just matter,- then do thou [Muhammad] receive their fealty, and pray to Allah for the forgiveness (of their sins): for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

(Surah 60:12)​

Praying for another, specifically the forgiveness of that other person's sins, How is that not making intercession? And for these women to ask (i.e. supplicate) Muhammad to make this intercession for them, How is that not doing the very thing that you say is called shirk?

The answer to this is very simple.

A distinction needs to be made between the living and the dead. To ask someone who is alive (in our worldly sense, not alive after having passed away) and able to make supplication for you does not fall under the forbidden intercession, because the person is alive, able to hear you and communicate with you. The verse you've quoted for me is speaking about the women coming to give the oath to the Messenger - obviously when he was alive. Thus it is permissible to ask someone alive to pray for you. The problem begins when one starts asking the dead for the fulfillment of his needs.

A renowned Islamic scholar, Ibn al-Qayyim explains in his book called Madarij al-Salikin (1/332):

“From the forms (of Shirk): Requesting the dead for needs, seeking their aid and turning to them.

This is the basis for Shirk in the world. This is because the actions of the dead have ceased. He is not able to harm or benefit himself, let alone the one who seeks his aid, or asks him to fulfil his need, or asks him to intercede for him with Allah, for this is from his ignorance with respect to the intercessor and the one interceded for, as has preceded. This is because he (the intercessor) is not able to intercede for him with Allah, except with His permission. Allah did not make his ‘seeking aid’ and petitioning, a cause for Allah’s permission to be granted. The only cause that grants Allah’s permission (for intercession) is the perfection of Tawheed. Yet, this polytheist comes along, with a cause that only prevents Allah’s permission (for intercession)!”
​

Mind you, personally, I don't think there is anything wrong with the practice as outlined in the Qur'an, but you have said that to make supplication (i.e. ask) of another -- exactly what these women are doing -- is the very essence of worship. Maybe it really isn't the very essence of worship after all? Maybe all it is is simply asking for assistance? That, too, I would suggest could be overdone, and perhaps there is too much attention given to that in Catholicism, after all God does not need us to use intermediaries; he can and does comes to us in his own right, and bids us likewise to approach him. But that would be a different issue, not the one under present discussion.

The understanding of 'essence' here is that, it is the core of worship. No Islamic form of worship exists, except that it involves supplication to God - which is why if misplaced to someone other than God falls under shirk.

I mean, you can come out and say that 'asking' a person for a favor falls under 'supplication', which might actually be correct linguistically, but the understanding here in terms of Islamic theology, would be incorrect. The distinction I made above applies here as well.

BTW, Christians do NOT claim that He is more than one. We boldly assert there is only one God, be it for Jews, Gentile, Christian, Muslim, or any other person on the face of the earth or any other life form scattered across the breadth of the entire cosmos.

That was stated in general, not specific to Christians, though I think we do differ on our understanding of 'One God'. You say God's nature is divided into three, while we reply to this saying 3 is more than one regardless. I think this has been discussed many times over on the forum so it might be a bit off topic here.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Abu, I appreciate your answer. I find it helpful in the ongoing quest to better understand Islam. Even if I don't find myself in agreement with key aspects of it, I hope to move beyond the ignorance I am occassionally (and sometimes rightly) accused of. Your explication has been most kind.

 

[Imam]

exactly what these women are doing -- is the very essence of worship. Maybe it really isn't the very essence of worship after all? Maybe all it is is simply asking for assistance? And for these women to ask (i.e. supplicate) Muhammad to make this intercession for them, How is that not doing the very thing that you say is called shirk? Taking an oath of fealty not to Allah, but to Muhammad..

If you bothered reading the commentary of such verse, All your questions could have been easily answered ,and could have found out that you going to make false analogy ….


First who are those women and what is the historical context:

Al-Bukhari recorded that `A'ishah the wife of the Prophet said, "Allah's Messenger used to examine women who migrated to his side according to this verse , "`A'ishah said, `When any believing woman agreed to these conditions, Allah's Messenger would say to her, I have accepted your pledge


In other words Allah says If any new female convert comes in the time of (Hijra) the you Mohamed (peace be upon him) show them the conditions for a woman to be true Muslim in order to join the new born Islamic community then ,If she agreed to these conditions then she becomes a member of the Islamic community ,and as she is a member of the community ,normally the prophet (peace be upon him) can raise his hand and say (May Allah lead the new converts, who agreed not to violate the commandments, his right path and forgive their sins) and why not Allah not to forgive their sins if they promised ,will not associate in worship any other thing whatever with Allah, that they will not steal, that they will not commit adultery, that they will not kill their children, etc……


Now let’s see what the catholic prayer to Mary ,to show you how wrong if one tries to compare such Quranic verse with the catholic acts:


Some Catholics direct their prayer straight to Mary for mercy,help ,pity,bless etc…..(in other words doing the work of God) eg;


O gracious Queen, accept the homage and the prayers (note how she accept the prayer not to pray to God for him) that the peoples and the nations, caught in bitter straits, trustingly raise to you Pope Pius XII


Please accept our consecration, dearest Mother, and use us as you wish to accomplish your designs upon the world,And just as your mercy is showered upon souls, O Mary, may it likewise flow over all those ills which afflict this people, and indeed the whole Christian family. Have pity on the poor, on captives, on all who bear persecution for the sake of justice, or are stricken by misfortune. Hail, O Mary, Mother of those who wander here below; you are our life, our sweetness, and our hope. Pope Pius XII (1876-1958)


We come with confidence to you, O Throne of Grace and Mother of Fair Love. Inflame us with the same Divine Fire which has inflamed your own Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart. Make our hearts and homes your shrinePope Pius XII (1876-1958)


Most Holy and Immaculate Virgin, Help of Christians, we place ourselves under your motherly protection. Throughout the Church's history you have helped Christians in times of trial, temptation and danger. Time and time again, you have proven to be the Refuge of sinners, the Hope of the hopeless, the Consoler of the afflicted, and the Comforter of the dying, we pray for the Church, for our family and friends, for the poor and abandoned, and all the dying. Grant, O Mary, Help of Christians. Amen.


We turn to you for protection,
Holy Mother of God.
Listen to our prayers
and help us in our needs.
Save us from every danger,
glorious and blessed Virgin.
Pope John XXIII



Reign, O Mother and Queen, by showing us the path of holiness and by guiding and assisting us that we may never stray from it. In the heights of heaven you exercise your primacy over the choirs of angels who acclaim you as their sovereign, and over the legions of saints who delight in beholding your dazzling beauty. So, too, reign over the entire human race
Pope Pius XII



Reign over men's minds, that they may seek only what is true; over their wills, that they may follow solely what is good; over their hearts, that they may love nothing but what you yourself love. Reign over individuals and over families, as well as over societies and nations; over the assemblies of the powerful, the counsels of the wise, as over the simple aspirations of the humble. Reign in the streets and in the squares, in the cities and the villages, in the valleys and in the mountains, in the air, on land and on the sea; and hear the pious prayers of all those who recognize that yours is a reign of mercy, in which every petition is heard, every sorrow comforted, every misfortune relieved, every infirmity healed, and in which, at a gesture from your gentle hands, from death itself there arises smiling life. Pope John XXIII





Holy Mary,
help those in need,
give strength to the weak,
comfort the sorrowful,
Mary, all who seek your help
experience your unfailing protection.
Amen.


Mother of the Word of God,
do not despise my words of pleading
but be merciful and hear my prayer.
Amen.



O Lady of Good Remedy, source of unfailing help, grant that we may draw from thy treasury of graces in our time of need. Touch the hearts of sinners, that they may seek reconciliation and forgiveness. Bring comfort to the afflicted and the lonely; help the poor and the hopeless; aid the sick and the suffering. May they be healed in body and strengthened in spirit to endure their sufferings with patient resignation and Christian fortitude.
Hail, Mary...



Receive me in heaven
as one of the blessed,
and I will proclaim
that I have obtained
such a great prize
through your patronage.
Amen. Pope Leo XIII (1810-1903)


O holy Mother!
You are my delight, dear hope, and chaste love,
my strength in all adversities.
If my spirit that is troubled
and stricken by passions
suffers from the painful burden
of sadness and weeping,
if you see your child overwhelmed by misfortune,
O gracious Virgin Mary,
let me find rest in your motherly embrace. Pope Pius X


To you, O Mary, are known all the needs of your people and of the whole Church. Mother of Truth and Seat of Wisdom, dissipate the clouds of error which darken our minds. Amend the strayings of our hearts and inspire in us love for truth and the desire to do good. Pope Pius XII (1876-1958)


some other Catholics ask her for intercession, and that is pure blasphemy ,and the same way Pagans used to reason their prayer to the Idols according to the Quran:

39:3 Is it not to Allah that sincere devotion is due? But those who take for protectors other than Allah (say): "We only serve them in order that they may bring us nearer to Allah." Truly Allah will judge between them in that wherein they differ. But Allah guides not such as are false and ungrateful.


The pagans used to argue exactly the same as christians argue ,that they believe in one God while they serve other physical intercessors (Jesus,Mary,Saints)

example of such blasphemeous prayers:

In gratitude for her miraculous assistance, St. John of Matha honored Mary with the title of "Our Lady of Good Remedy." Devotion to Mary under this ancient title is widely known in Europe and Latin America, and the Church celebrates her feast day on October 8. Our Lady of Good Remedy is often depicted as the Virgin Mary handing a bag of money to St. John of Matha.
When in need for whatever reason, but especially where you had difficulty obtaining help, invoke the aid of Our Lady of Good Remedy, and you will surely experience the power of her intercession.


So you see ,Seeker in both cases catholic to be condemned ,Protestant ,Orthodox to be condemned as well.......


All mushriks ,misbelievers according to the Quran and common sense too...

 

[Grace Seeker]

If you bothered reading the commentary of such verse, All your questions could have been easily answered ,and could have found out that you going to make false analogy ….

Have you read the Catholic commentaries in which they explain their understanding of these practices?

 

[YusufNoor]

Interesting. Then what does one make of this passage: Taking an oath of fealty not to Allah, but to Muhammad.

Let's see what that means:
So, let's look up fidelity:

Though they are not to associate anything with ALLAH, they are to be faithful to Muhammad, and take an oath of devotion. Sure sounds a lot like worship to me. Once in that relationship they actually expect Muhammad to pray for them.

As far as your complaints that one is calling on Mary in prayer, not so. It is actually a recital of the words of that the angel Gabriel himself used when greeting Mary:

So, let us see that comparison again:
Catholics quote the words of scripture. Muslims quote the words of the Qur'an.
Catholics venerate a person, Mary. Muslims swear fealty to Muhammad.

Exactly what is your complaint again?

to the Mushrik,

it seems that the ignorance of your post has been answered. it's a pity that you are not here to actually learn something about Islam, but just to waste our time a try to ridicule people who genuinely try to answer you posts.

whenever there is a Calipha, Muslims are required to take an oath of obedience. had you taken some time to actually learn about Islam, you would have found that out.

so, how EXACTLY does praying to someone other than Allah[swt], compare how to giving an oath of obedience your leader, who MUST be alive in order to give said oath?

had you bothered to read a Qur'an you would have noticed this:

[3.32] Say: Obey Allah and the Apostle; but if they turn back, then surely Allah does not love the unbelievers.

3.132] And obey Allah and the Apostle, that you may be shown mercy.

[4.13] These are Allah's limits, and whoever obeys Allah and His Apostle, He will cause him to enter gardens beneath which rivers flow, to abide in them; and this is the great achievement.

[4.59] O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Apostle and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Apostle, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end.

[4.64] And We did not send any apostle but that he should be obeyed by Allah's permission; and had they, when they were unjust to themselves, come to you and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Apostle had (also) asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Oft-returning (to mercy), Merciful.

[4.69] And whoever obeys Allah and the Apostle, these are with those upon whom Allah has bestowed favors from among the prophets and the truthful and the martyrs and the good, and a goodly company are they!

[4.80] Whoever obeys the Apostle, he indeed obeys Allah, and whoever turns back, so We have not sent you as a keeper over them.


and that is just in the 1st 4 Surahs!

you cannot understand the Qur'an with hatred in your heart, Allah[swt] will just cause a seal to be set upon it. in the 2nd we read:

Verily, those who disbelieve, it is the same to them whether you (O Muhammad Peace be upon him ) warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe.

Allah has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearings, (i.e. they are closed from accepting Allah's Guidance), and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be a great torment.

And of mankind, there are some (hypocrites) who say: "We believe in Allah and the Last Day" while in fact they believe not.

They (think to) deceive Allah and those who believe, while they only deceive themselves, and perceive (it) not!

In their hearts is a disease (of doubt and hypocrisy) and Allah has increased their disease. A painful torment is theirs because they used to tell lies.

Muhsin Khan: And when it is said to them: "Make not mischief on the earth," they say: "We are only peacemakers."

Muhsin Khan: Verily! They are the ones who make mischief, but they perceive not.

we KNOW you are just making mischief! Allah[swt] has pointed it out us!

and yet, we ask Allah[swt] to guide you and to turn your misdeeds into good deeds, for that is proper for us.

 

[Grace Seeker]

to the Mushrik,

it seems that the ignorance of your post has been answered. it's a pity that you are not here to actually learn something about Islam, but just to waste our time a try to ridicule people who genuinely try to answer you posts.

You either make assumptions that are patently false. Notice that Abu actually addressed my post without also trying to attack me, and I was able to receive his answer.

so, how EXACTLY does praying to someone other than Allah[swt], compare how to giving an oath of obedience your leader, who MUST be alive in order to give said oath?

They would not. However, from the Catholic perspective they do not see themselves as praying to someone other than God. You can say that you see it that way. Certainly lots of protestants would agree with you. But the Catholics understand their actions differently, and I try to respect their understanding of what they do. But as you seem to want to interpret their actions exclusively from your own vantage point, you should not object if others do the same with your actions. In taking a loyalty oath and swearing allegiance they are claiming they are devoted to Muhammad. Such devotion some might say is tantamount to worship. And you (not me) call such things shirk.

 

[Keltoi]

Asking a question or actually making a religious comparison is not ridicule. That is why this section is called comparative religion. I do not accept Islam as a religious faith, but neither am I here to ridicule it. I think anyone who has read Grace Seeker's past posts undestands that he is not here to ridicule Islam either. It is the height of hypocrisy to accuse someone of "ridiculing" Islam when your very own posts are filled with it.

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

oh my God ....atmosphere is sooo hot here


Can we all take a short break & come back later ?

Peace to all :statisfie

 

[Imam]

Have you read the Catholic commentaries in which they explain their understanding of these practices?

Yes I have ....
Have you?

If so

Though I provided ample prayers showing that lots of persons believed that Mary has the power to forgive,bless etcc eg;


We turn to you (no mention for God here)for protection,
Holy Mother of God.
Listen to our prayers
and help us in our needs.
Save us from every danger,
glorious and blessed Virgin.
Pope John XXIII


but for the sake of argument let's assume that this is not the worship that is due to God alone , but merely asking her for intercession


again as I said before , that is pure blasphemy ,and similar to the pagans prayers to idols for intercession with God:

Holy Quran 39:3 Is it not to Allah that sincere devotion is due? But those who take for protectors other than Allah (say): "We only serve them in order that they may bring us nearer to Allah." Truly Allah will judge between them in that wherein they differ. But Allah guides not such as are false and ungrateful.


and The Protestant aware of such point:


Protestants argue that a Marian devotion is akin to worship, but Christians are to worship God (the Holy Trinity) alone, and not Mary or the saints. Catholics and Orthodox note that this is not the worship that is due to God alone (Greek: latria), but merely veneration (dulia or proskinesis); however, Protestants do not accept that argument. Protestants are of the opinion that Marian devotion, even if not worship, distracts from attention to God, and devotion to Mary is likely to give rise to tendencies to equate Mary with God.(wikipedia)


though they are right in condemning the Catholics for that ,but are themselves to be condemned for practicing something similar if not worse , as whenever they pray to the son prayer such as

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

they commit shirk by praying a prayer that is due to God alone (neither his son who is sitting at his right hand nor anyone else) in other words

I think I offered enough Quranic and non Quranic proof text showing that the Quran condemns what the Christian really PRACTICE which against the true monotheism which is not only to believe in the existence of a single and absolute truth that transcends the world; a unique and indivisible being who is independent of the entire creation, but also never praying to some other being to intercede with Allah on one's behalf, rather than taking one's case to God Himself . This form of Shirk represents the most obvious form of idolatry which the prophets were specifically sent by God to call the masses of mankind away from. . .


Seeker ,If you can't come up with anything better in this topic, I suggest that you come up with nothing at all. Enough is enough.

Salaam/peace;

oh my God ....atmosphere is sooo hot here

Can we all take a short break & come back later ?

Peace to al

If it is August then no wonder it is sooo hot here

 

[Grace Seeker]

Imam,

It is perfectly understandable that you evaluate whether Christian theology (be it Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, or some other variant) is correct from an Islamic point of view. By your standards all of us commit shirk. However, it is not appropriate that you define us by your standards, but ours. When you say that we are committing shirk because we worship a polygot of gods, you have combined the first and the second into one sentece. By your standards we do committ shirk. You see our worship as worshipping more than one god and associating partners with god. That is all well and good, as you can state that from your persepctive. But when you cannot then say that Christians admit to this, for we do no such thing. We contend that we worship only one God.

Now, there are Christians who tell me that Muslims worship a pagan god, the moon, or other things that I am sure you would object to. And I agree that they should have no right to define you that way either. They have a right to their opinion and may desire to make a case for it. But, as long as you define yourself differenly, then I have to accept that you don't see yourself that way.

It's called respect. I respect that you have identified the god you worship as being Allah and know certain things to be true about him and the worship he expects of you as defined in the Qur'an and the Hadith. I may think you are wrong in some of those characterizations of God, but I respect that these are in fact the beliefs that you hold to, even if misguided. Why can you not grant the same respect to others outside of your faith? Of course it is fair to say that from an Islamic persepctive that such beliefs are nonetheless shirk? But why can you not allow non-Muslims to define for themselves what it is that they believe rather than tell them as if you know better than they do what is in their heart?

 

[Muslim Woman]

If it is August then no wonder it is sooo hot here

it's hot like the month of May/ June---the hottest months in my country ..too hot...too hot. I want some rain here now

 

[Woodrow]

Let us restore peaceful debate to this thread. I notice there is considerable misconceptions and stereoypical concepts by us Non-Christians about what/who a Christian is. Most of us seem to make the error of equating the practices of Cathoics as being the practices of all who call theselves Christian.

Just for general clarification Christianity has 2 main schools of thought and practices. Caholochism/Orthodox and Protestanism. Many practices differ between them.

Most of our Christian members are not Catholic/Orthodox we can not expect them to be able to explain Catholic traditions and practices. However, it seems many questions are addressed towards Catholic practices.

Let us give our non-Catholic Christians some understanding and not try to pressure a non-Catholic into explaining any Catholic practices or teachings. We do have some Catholic members, let them explain the Catholic practices.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

Not that hard ,seeker

Hebrew Older Than Arabic ! ?

http://www.useless-knowledge.com/1234/jan/article308.html

Is this theory compatible with Islam? I mean, seeing Muslims always claim how perfect a language Arabic is, why would God reveal the Bible in Hebrew, if Arabic had already existed?
Anyway, the theory is flawed, it don't think the author acknowledges the fact that Modern Hebrew is an artificial language.

 

[Imam]

Is this theory compatible with Islam? I mean, seeing Muslims always claim how perfect a language Arabic is, .

nothing perfect about Arabic ,All the languages are a divine sign

Holy Quran 30:22 And among His Signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the variations in your languages and your colours: verily in that are Signs for those who know.

why would God reveal the Bible in Hebrew, if Arabic had already existed?Anyway, the theory is flawed
.

If the bible has been revealed to Arabs,it would has been in Arabic

and yes his theory could be flawed for many reasons ,the same could be said to the theory which Seeker highlighted(Hebrew is older than Arabic)....

and that was the only reason why I linked such link,to show him that (which is older Arabic or Hebrew) is controversal .........

 

[Grace Seeker]

and yes his theory could be flawed for many reasons ,the same could be said to the theory which Seeker highlighted(Hebrew is older than Arabic)....

and that was the only reason why I linked such link,to show him that (which is older Arabic or Hebrew) is controversal .........

You and I agree on a couple of things.
1) That Elohim is a plural noun, regardless of its orgin.
2) Even though Elohim is plural, the use of it to refer to God does not in and of itself indicate either that there is more than one God or that God is himself a multi-personal being.

And I think we also agree that Hebrew and Arabic are derived from a common ancestor language, per the article for which you posted the link.

To my reasoning, if they are both derived from a common ancestor language then the following statement by Professor Knapp cannot be true:

Knapp, Prof. from mid 19th century Theology, p. 93. It (Elohim,) is derived from an Arabic word

This is important to note because, though he may arrive at a correct conclusion, he used faulty logic to get there, and we would not want to use this particlural line of reasoning to buttress any other points or reach any other conclusions, as we may not be so lucky in arriving at a correct conclusion the second time. If you think that the means by which one arrives at a conclusion is trivial, so be it. It's is just one more thing on which we disagree.

But from the beginning I already agreed with you that the use of Elohim could not by itself be used to substantiate the doctrine of the Trinity.

My initial question was why I continue to find Muslims unwilling to accept that what we Christians mean by Trinity is not what the Qur'an describes as Trinity? It is as if Muslims feel the Qur'an understands Christian beliefs better than Christians do. When Christians say that we believe in one God, we really believe that we do. You may think we are in self-denial about what you see as something other than true monotheistic belief, but why can you not accept as true that we do indeed see oursevles as monotheists?

To substantiate that point I provided a verse of scripture that show the depth of monotheism held by Christians. (For a reason not shared with me, though your quoting of me remains, that portion of my post in which I asked you "what more proof of the monotheism of Christianity could you want" has been editted and whoever did so, did not noted that they had editted my post.)

As to your question to me: "What more proof of God not being triune?" Do you really want me to address that in this thread? It isn't something held by Islam. I can defend that postion if you want me to. But I don't think it would be appropriate to do so in this thread.

 

[Imam]

My initial question was why I continue to find Muslims unwilling to accept that what we Christians mean by Trinity is not what the Qur'an describes as Trinity?

The reader to the previous posts can judge whether the Quran describes the
christian trinity or any other trinity

It is as if Muslims feel the Qur'an understands Christian beliefs better than Christians do.

May be you felt that the last post of Bro,Woodrow endorsed the trinity ?!!
I don't think so !!!

you tried to explain the trinity ,and we had a long debate about it together in another thread
http://www.islamicboard.com/compara...e-christ-he-same-substance-god-he-crea-2.html

and I showed you with both proof text and logic , How impossible one claims to believe in one God and yet believe in a Trinity.....


anyway If you believe that the Bible contains contradictions,false prophecies ,and still you call it the word of God ,so no wonder you believe in the Trinity and still calling it true monotheism!!
It doesn't take a great deal of wisdom to see that anyone who would believe in the former would also accept the latter. For them nothing would be too absurd, including the Trinity...

seeker ,It would be nice of you to open another Islamic topic...

 

[Grace Seeker]

May be you felt that the last post of Bro,Woodrow endorsed the trinity ?!!

Why would I have felt that? And whatever made you suggest that I might? I never even considered that he made any (recent) comment with regard the Trinity, let alone endorse it. (I would highly doubt that he would.)

you tried to explain the trinity ,and we had a long debate about it together in another thread
http://www.islamicboard.com/compara...e-christ-he-same-substance-god-he-crea-2.html

And yet you are the one who wants to debate it here again. I only want to know why you cannot accept our understanding of it as our understanding and have to constantly reinterpret it creating for it scarecrows that are contrary to what we actually believe.

and I showed you with both proof text and logic , How impossible one claims to believe in one God and yet believe in a Trinity.....

Not nearly as logical as you seem to have convinced yourself, and one reason (among many) is because you don't discuss what we actually believe, but something quite different from it.

seeker ,It would be nice of you to open another Islamic topic...

Since you don't appear to have an answer to the question I have asked here, maybe you should let others speak to it, then perhaps we can move on.

 

[Woodrow]

Perhaps it is time we move off the topic of the trinity. I believe it has been established that most, probably all Christians believe God(swt) is a triune(trinity) and that we Muslims do not.

 

[Grace Seeker]

I suspect the following has no answer, but it will serve to move us to at least a new area of discussion.


I understand that the Qur'an is in Arabic because Allah sent his message to the Arabs. But Muslim feel that Muhammad was the last prophet and thus his message must be for all time and all nations. Why then, since the message is not meant just for Arabs but for all nations as well, would not Allah also send Gabriel to return and provide the exact translation of the original message that he gave to Muhammad in all of the other languages of the world in to which it is translated? Why leave the Qur'an open to misinterpretation and mistranslation so that one has (I don't know exactly, perhaps) hundreds of different translations of the Qur'an in English alone?

 

[Imam]

I understand that the Qur'an is in Arabic because Allah sent his message to the Arabs. But Muslim feel that Muhammad was the last prophet and thus his message must be for all time and all nations. Why then, since the message is not meant just for Arabs but for all nations as well, would not Allah also send Gabriel to return and provide the exact translation of the original message that he gave to Muhammad in all of the other languages of the world in to which it is translated? Why leave the Qur'an open to misinterpretation and mistranslation so that one has (I don't know exactly, perhaps) hundreds of different translations of the Qur'an in English alone?

It is a good idea to move to new area of discussion,though I don't think such Question related the title of the thread (Things in Islam I am curious about),as the arena of discussion should be things exclusive to Islam,as I can ask you the same question:

But christians feel that the message of the New Testament must be for all time and all nations. Why then, since the message is not meant just for Hebrews but for all nations as well, would not Allah also send the holy spirit to return and provide the exact translation of the New Testament of the other languages of the world in to which it is translated? Why leave the NT open to misinterpretation and mistranslation ?


The Question is not exclusive to Islam, isn't it?


anyway :

Do you have a motive to study the book?

if so being in another language you don't speak, is not problematic as long as ,you are you honest with yourself, take the matter seriously and consult the big old dictionaries.....this can be said about the Quran and about the Bible as well.........