Things in Islam I am curious about...

[Grace Seeker]

I guess , it's normal /expected that we will commit some minor sins.

But my WHY? question remains. Why should we expect that one who is born sinless is going to commit sins -- major, minor really isn't the point. Why should one who is born sinless, who is (as I have head some on this board speak of infants) living in Islam, ever sin? My mother taught me when I was very young that it is easier to keep a new shirt clean than to get it dirty and then wash it, because it never becomes quite as clean again as it was when it was new. So, if babies are born pure, why wouldn't one pray that they remain righteous rather than live with the expectation that they are going to commit some sin? Are you suggesting that it is just in our nature, however pure we might appear to be, that we are all ultimately going to sin anyway, and we need to pray to Allah to forgive us this failing that we have and then after coming to faith in him to then keep us from failing again?

Can you see why I wonder why the goal is not simply to keep one from failing the first time to begin with, rather than just accept it as a given?

 

[alcurad]

we have the ability to sin, we're not pre programmed machines that either sin or don't or need some lines of code altered not to, that is over simplistic.
not to sin is the goal, the ones who don't have the capability to sin per se are incapable individuals, having neither will nor ability otherwise.
where then is free will, or humanity,,
in the qur'an this topic is not a major one, the main point being no sin is inherited, and all are capable of either good or bad,,

 

[Grace Seeker]

we have the ability to sin, we're not pre programmed machines that either sin or don't or need some lines of code altered not to, that is over simplistic.

Yes, I understand this. What I don't understand is why it is that all actually end up sinning? And further why Muslims seem to accept this as inevitable? I understand why Christians see it as inevitable, but not Muslims given that Muslims understand people to be born pure?



Let me try to present my question with an illustration (though I'm just thinking of this as I write, so if my illustration doesn't illustrate ignore it and go back to my question above):

Let us say that one was standing on top of the continental divide where all water that lands there flows either to the Atlantic or the Pacific Ocean. It might be hard to guess which way any particular drop of water would flow, but on the whole one would expect about half to flow one direction and the other half to flow the other direction. If it all flowed to either the Pacific or the Atlantic one would say that this was in fact not a Continental Divide, but part of a particular set watershed. So, one of the tests as to whether what one has identified as a continental divide actually is or not is if we see water going both directions and not one.

Now when we look at babies and we are told that they are all born pure and without sin, and we know that they have a life in front of them in which they may chose to sin or chose not to sin, does it not follow that if they really have no predisposition to either one of the other that you would see some flow one way and some flow the other. But this is not what we in fact see. When we observe the nature of human beings what we see is that all do in fact sin. Which leads me to believe that all are in fact born with a predisposition to sin. And so, in accordance with my beliefs, I pray for all persons to be redeemed and made right with God.

But this returns me to my question. If Muslims actually believe that people are born with a choice before them, that there is no natural predisposition to sin, why in offering supplications don't I see Muslims praying that these innocent babies be kept from sin and never enter into it. Why do we not see some of these Muslims (as that is what all people are suppose to be at the time of birth) continue to choose Islam throughout life, rather than failing to do so and having to ask for forgiveness. Why does all of humanity flow in one direction toward sin if they really are born with choice as a genuine option? And why do Muslism recognize this flow in their prayer life, while Islamic theology says that it need not be this way?



Or maybe I'm wrong????
Maybe Islamic theology doesn't say that people are free from sin becoming a given in their lives? Maybe Islamic theology doesn't call it "inherited depravity" or "original sin", but still admits to something very similar in that all are going to sin I have just missed that point as people argue over words like "inherited depravity" and "original sin" while nonetheless agreeing that sin is inevitable in all persons.



Please, understand that these are actually questions and not meant as accusations. I'm trying to figure out a dichotomy I see between what I understand as Islamic teaching on this subject and the realities of what I see with regard to Islamic prayer life. There is something amiss, but I can't figure out what it is that I am missing.

 

[alcurad]

nurture, the prophet said that all are born pure, but then parents' upbringing changes that. there are different 'purities'.

an infant's purity is just that though, to grow means not to be so naive and unaware, an infant's purity is mostly not knowing.
sin as humans define it is amorphous, we try not to limit ourselves to that,,
the potential for action is there, man is guided to both paths, notice the word used in the qur'an is guided/given/shown, even though the other path is rejection of God.
this isn't a focal point in Islam as it were, so maybe that's why there are no specific prayers on the subject of the sinless remaining so.
we don't actively try to stand opposite to the the christian doctrine -if it is indeed that-of humans sinning, yes humans do sin, the prophet once said that if we didn't sin, we would be replaced with a people who did sin, and then repented, so then Gd would forgive them. its not inherited though, and there is a difference between major and minor sins.

 

[Grace Seeker]

nurture, the prophet said that all are born pure, but then parents' upbringing changes that. there are different 'purities'.

an infant's purity is just that though, to grow means not to be so naive and unaware, an infant's purity is mostly not knowing.
sin as humans define it is amorphous, we try not to limit ourselves to that,,
the potential for action is there, man is guided to both paths, notice the word used in the qur'an is guided/given/shown, even though the other path is rejection of God.
this isn't a focal point in Islam as it were, so maybe that's why there are no specific prayers on the subject of the sinless remaining so.
we don't actively try to stand opposite to the the christian doctrine -if it is indeed that-of humans sinning, yes humans do sin, the prophet once said that if we didn't sin, we would be replaced with a people who did sin, and then repented, so then Gd would forgive them. its not inherited though, and there is a difference between major and minor sins.

It is my intent that this thread never become a place where we attack each other's views. So, I'll not dispute more than I already have those points I disagree with in your above reply. (I'll save that for another thread. ) Still, accepting what you said as the reality of Islam, you did raise another quesiton for me:

there is a difference between major and minor sins.

Why is this?

I understand that viewed from a human perspective that murder and anger are at different levels. But, are they really so different from God's perspective? I guess I'm still stuck in the Christian thinking of sin as a type of falling short of the divine standard. For me, miss by an inch is no different than missing by a mile. You still miss. To change metaphors, are you saying that as far as sin goes something to the effect that close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, atomic war, and Islam's view of righteousnes?

 

[alcurad]

attacks are welcome as long as they make sense, well actually all criticism is an attack at that, so fire away, only then can we progress,,
to answer your question, we don't really know God's perspective, yes we have many verses and texts that claim such, but really it's only our perspective of his perspective
a minor sin could be not answering someones greeting, a major one murder, as you can see it is not equal at all, we hold that intention and effort are counted in God's perspective.the last three verses of the second chapter of the qur'an will perhaps clarify:

"284. To Allah belongeth all that is in the heavens and on earth. Whether ye show what is in your minds or conceal it, Allah Calleth you to account for it. He forgiveth whom He pleaseth, and punisheth whom He pleaseth, for Allah hath power over all things.

285. The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His apostles. "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His apostles." And they say: "We hear, and we obey: (We seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys."

286. On no soul doth Allah Place a burden greater than it can bear. It gets every good that it earns, and it suffers every ill that it earns. (Pray) "Our Lord! Condemn us not if we forget or fall into error; our Lord! Lay not on us a burden Like that which Thou didst lay on those before us; Our Lord! Lay not on us a burden greater than we have strength to bear. Blot out our sins, and grant us forgiveness. Have mercy on us. Thou art our Protector; Help us against those who stand against faith."

 

[Grace Seeker]

As my English teacher would often comment on my papers -- TBDAQ -- True But Didn't Answer the Question.

 

[alcurad]

edit:,,

 

[anatolian]

But my WHY? question remains. Why should we expect that one who is born sinless is going to commit sins -- major, minor really isn't the point. Why should one who is born sinless, who is (as I have head some on this board speak of infants) living in Islam, ever sin? My mother taught me when I was very young that it is easier to keep a new shirt clean than to get it dirty and then wash it, because it never becomes quite as clean again as it was when it was new. So, if babies are born pure, why wouldn't one pray that they remain righteous rather than live with the expectation that they are going to commit some sin? Are you suggesting that it is just in our nature, however pure we might appear to be, that we are all ultimately going to sin anyway, and we need to pray to Allah to forgive us this failing that we have and then after coming to faith in him to then keep us from failing again?

Can you see why I wonder why the goal is not simply to keep one from failing the first time to begin with, rather than just accept it as a given?

Salam Grace. I want to say that your shirt analogy is not exactly true because it is Allah who washes our sins when we repent truely. When Allah washes, He makes us clean as if we never commited sin.

Christians have a wrong concept about that human sin relationship. You base it on the fall of Adam but you forget that He commited that sin even in Heaven-before the fall. As long as Satan goes on to "work" there will be the probability of sin. People sometimes oppose Satan and do not commit sin but sometimes they follow him and commit sin. This is called "free will" .That is not an obligatory result of a pragmatical procces. We are not some kind of programed to commit sin.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Christians have a wrong concept about that human sin relationship. You base it on the fall of Adam but you forget that He commited that sin even in Heaven-before the fall.

According the Christian beliefs, the fall was something that took place on the earth that God created.

 

[Malaikah]

Yes, I understand this. What I don't understand is why it is that all actually end up sinning? And further why Muslims seem to accept this as inevitable? I understand why Christians see it as inevitable, but not Muslims given that Muslims understand people to be born pure?

Because the Prophet pbuh said that every person sins.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Because the Prophet pbuh said that every person sins.

Does he say why it is that everyone sins? To say that they have free will is not enough, given that if they have free it is reasonable to assume that they could chosen to not sin just as readily as they chose to sin, and that therefore that eventually some would chose to not sin. But that has never happened, why not? Or does the Prophet say more. Does he say that not only that everyone sins, but that ultimately we can't but help to make the choice to sin? Perhaps he is saying not only that over time all do sin, but that it is inevitable that we will make the choice to sin? (I'm asking, not declaring.)

 

[alcurad]

But that has never happened

I'm curious as to how you reached that conclusion though.

the better one becomes, the more burden one has to carry. meaning sin is not as clearly defined as it were, there are gray areas.

trying to squeeze blood from a turnip does not always work

 

[Grace Seeker]

I'm curious as to how you reached that conclusion though.

From Malaikah's statement, that according to the prophet "every person sins." It follows therefore that it has never happened that a person consistently chooe to not sin. For it someone had, then the statement "everyone sins" which I accepted as a fair rendering from Malaikah of what the prophet said, even if not a verbatim record of it, as being an accurate representation of the beliefs of Islam.

the better one becomes, the more burden one has to carry. meaning sin is not as clearly defined as it were, there are gray areas.

Not sure what you are trying to say here. What I get from your comment is that unrighteous people are not held to as high of a standard as are the righteous. But I can hardly believe that is what you meant.

trying to squeeze blood from a turnip does not always work

And I don't get how this maxim applies to this discussion.

 

[alcurad]

rather the more righteous you are, things which were not sins might be, the prophets for example are held to a much higher standard than the rest, not vice versa though.
everyone sinning is not exactly part of our creed, as in there is no focus on that part so people can mostly draw whatever conclusion they wish.

 

[Grace Seeker]

rather the more righteous you are, things which were not sins might be, the prophets for example are held to a much higher standard than the rest, not vice versa though.

So, it might be a sin for a prophet to lie, but not for someone who was not a prophet. Is that what you mean?

everyone sinning is not exactly part of our creed, as in there is no focus on that part so people can mostly draw whatever conclusion they wish.

But do you agree with what Malaikah reported Muhammad to have said, "every person sins"?

 

[alcurad]

no, rather to lie is a sin regardless of anyone doing it, these are common to all, a prophet is held to a much higher standard since he is expected to stay away form such sins in the first place. I',m mainly referencing 'thoughts' and so on more than 'actions'.

I haven't really come across any saying of the prophet as such, but everyone sinning might be a good generalization, although not true for all, there are a few people who have never sinned-not what we would consider sin anyway. this doesn't change the way we view our relationship with the creator though, he is the forgiver of sin, regardless of how grave it is.

 

[Grace Seeker]

everyone sinning might be a good generalization, although not true for all, there are a few people who have never sinned-not what we would consider sin anyway.

Can you name names?

 

[Grace Seeker]

A new, different and (I hope) simple question:

If one was going to say that someone gave a particular good testimony (for the Islamic faith), is a there a particular terminology that is used?

For instance I've learned that

'Aqeeda = belief
Du'a = prayer (speficially supplications)
Iman = faith (as in acceptance)

and I think

Dawah = witness (for the purpose of proselytizing)


But I don't know if one would use Dawah for the giving of one's person testimony or not?

 

[alcurad]

the prophet Abraham for example never committed a sin, nor did Jesus and Mohammad, most prophets never did sin at that, not according to Islamic belief atleast.
testimony in arabic is shahada. although in your particular case you can simply say 'testimony' unless you're going for speaking Arabic