Things in Islam I am curious about...

[Hugo]

i disagree with the Nietzcheand white quote furthermore that was to follower and we were talking about how we distinquish from methophorical and literal interpreatations - he gave his "view" that anything that is worldly should be taken metaphorically - so i brought up the head covering. Nothing to do with refuatation whats so ever.

OK, I may have misunderstood what you were saying. In fact the famous Islamic scholar Ibn Rushd some 800 years ago gave a kind of rule for deciding if someting should be taken literally or not. Put simple it was: "If the plain meaning of the words are clear but don’t make sense then the writer must have meant something else"

For example, Jesus once said "if you eye causes you to sin pluck it out and throw it away". No no one can rationally take this as a literal law and it must be taken to mean that sins is such a pernicious thing that we must fight and fight against it.

The other aspect here and this is what might have been meant earlier is that if say we read that Moses ordered his follows to burn down a town (which he did) then we cannot take that now as meaning we can do the same so we must interpret it for today in a spiritual sense.

Of course you can disagree with the Nietzche quote but why and one might add or ask here what you think a fact is?

 

[Zafran]

Of course you can disagree with the Nietzche quote but why and one might add or ask here what you think a fact is?
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Thats going off topic and i disagree Nietzches Nihlistic definition of "there are no facts" - one fact is true "I think therefore I am" - Descartes . - thats a fact to me.

 

[Hugo]

Again when you say "logically" are you talking about your own limited mind and trying figure out how Allah swt the greatest of Judgers and the knower of all is going to judge - You ask how? how can you even understand when you are limited??

Furthermore so you dont believe that man has to do Good to wipe his bad deeds out( totaly beacsue God is Genarous and all merciful, which is a good thing dont you agree?) - so what about an innocent man dying on a cross for everybodies sin - including the burglers and the murderers? Instead you like that idea that an innocent man sheds his blood for everyones sin - If we use your "logic" does that sound logically at all? will the judge let the thief and killer off just beacsue the innocent mans blood has wiped out the sins???

This is only if we apply our limited views on the greatest of Judgers which humans are not.

I think you are missing my point and logic is logic. My question is how can I know NOW in this life that God will have mercy on me. In your terms how can I know that I have done enough to wipe out my bad deeds?

 

[Zafran]

I think you are missing my point and logic is logic. My question is how can I know NOW in this life that God will have mercy on me. In your terms how can I know that I have done enough to wipe out my bad deeds?

why would you want to know - If you knew you had done enough like any human - arrogance and pride will build up - the idea is to be God fearing and humble -

Dont worry you'll find out on the day of ressurection. - Then i'm sure all of us will want mercy rather then Justice.

 

[Hugo]

Thats going off topic and i disagree Nietzches Nihlistic definition of "there are no facts" - one fact is true "I think therefore I am" - Descartes . - thats a fact to me.[/QUOTE]

I agree it's off topic but you have just given an example of Nietzche's aphorism, Descartes simply made an interpretation and then you made an interpretation of that

 

[Zafran]

Thats going off topic and i disagree Nietzches Nihlistic definition of "there are no facts" - one fact is true "I think therefore I am" - Descartes . - thats a fact to me.

I agree it's off topic but you have just given an example of Nietzche's aphorism, Descartes simply made an interpretation and then you made an interpretation of that [/QUOTE]

2+2=4 - fact - MATHS!

 

[Hugo]

why would you want to know - If you knew you had done enough like any human - arrogance and pride will build up - the idea is to be God fearing and humble -

Dont worry you'll find out on the day of ressurection. - Then i'm sure all of us will want mercy rather then Justice.

I want to know because I want assurance now, let face it, its a bit late to find out your heading for hell on the day of resurrection don't you think? It's only a person who thinks its a balancing act that would say "I've done enough". To Christians they can never do enough and their simple faith exercised through Jesus accepts God's mercy and its that mercy and love that change their whole lives and channels it in Gods way.

Just a point but suppose one does not become a Muslim until late in life then there is no time to pay back is there? But may be that is one difference between Muslims and Christians, the first can have no assurance and the second full assurance.

 

[GreyKode]

I thought these were all inspirations. Follower, since you can talk to the Holy spirit, can you please record for us what it sounds like? Or at least pray to the holy spirit to talk to me.

If we are going to descend into non-arguments like this, tell us what Gabriel sounded like when he spoke to Prophet Mohammed, or consider your prayers, where do they go, who hears them - tell us what it sound like to God?[/QUOTE]


NO,LOL, this is between me and follower, he knows what I am talking about.
Look at some of his previous posts he actually claims he can talk to the holy spirit, not kidding.

 

[Hugo]

If we are going to descend into non-arguments like this, tell us what Gabriel sounded like when he spoke to Prophet Mohammed, or consider your prayers, where do they go, who hears them - tell us what it sound like to God?

NO,LOL, this is between me and follower, he knows what I am talking about.
Look at some of his previous posts he actually claims he can talk to the holy spirit, not kidding.[/QUOTE]

Ok, but I think I was asking can we talk to God?

 

[GreyKode]

NO,LOL, this is between me and follower, he knows what I am talking about.
Look at some of his previous posts he actually claims he can talk to the holy spirit, not kidding.

Ok, but I think I was asking can we talk to God?[/QUOTE]

No, I don't think we can talk to God(except for messengers of GOD), or at least I haven't ever done it, or known any muslim who did it before.
But, what do you think?

 

[Tony]

Ok, but I think I was asking can we talk to God?

No, I don't think we can talk to God(except for messengers of GOD), or at least I haven't ever done it, or known any muslim who did it before.
But, what do you think?[/QUOTE]

Why do you think this? if we cant talk to God then who are we praying to. Of course we talk to Allah, thats why we dont have priests etc

 

[GreyKode]

No, I don't think we can talk to God(except for messengers of GOD), or at least I haven't ever done it, or known any muslim who did it before.
But, what do you think?

Why do you think this? if we cant talk to God then who are we praying to. Of course we talk to Allah, thats why we dont have priests etc[/QUOTE]

No, I meant, we can't have a conversation back and forth with ALLAH(swt), yet we can talk to him in our prayers and dua'a(one way).

 

[Hugo]

Ok, but I think I was asking can we talk to God?

No, I don't think we can talk to God(except for messengers of GOD), or at least I haven't ever done it, or known any muslim who did it before.
But, what do you think?[/QUOTE]

Well yes we can talk to God, that is what prayer is. Indeed there is a famous poem which describes prayer as like breathing, one cannot as it were do without it. The Bible is full of encouragements to prayer and stories of people in prayer, meaning directly talking to God in private and in company. I cannot speak with any authority on the Qu'ran in this respect but I am sure someone can.

 

['Abd-al Latif]

Just a point - one can only pick out corruptions with certainty if one has the original and presumably you do not. There are no originals as far as we know of any Bible book just as there are no originals of the Qu'ran preserved from the time of the prophet. We therefore have to work with what we have as As-Suyuti (Itquan, part 3 , page 720) famously remarked "I have acquired of it (the Qu'ran) what is available"

Why would Muslims want to 'proclaim' these so called corruptions, is the message of Islam so weak that it can only be supported by denigrating other scriptures?

Typical response of someone who has never read the Qur'an. I need to go right now but wait for my reply.

I have asked this before but unsure of the answer.

Did Mohammad have any eyewitnesses as to what Gabriel said? Did anyone else hear the revelations?

Mulims have told me that witnesses heard Mohammad humming- but is there anything outside of Mohammad's being that he would not have control over that was a witness to the revelations?

With Paul there were the travelers accompanying Paul- the bright light and sound that they heard, then separate from the group there was Ananias.

Yes, there are eye witnesses when Gabriel came in the form of a man, the companions were witnesses and there are recorded narrations about this. I have to go right now but I'll be back soon with explinations and proofs.

 

[Hugo]

Typical response of someone who has never read the Qur'an. I need to go right now but wait for my reply.

Hugo - but I have read the Qu'ran several times. I might as well say about you that 'typical response from someone who have never read the Bible'. It does not add anything to the debate does it?

Yes, there are eye witnesses when Gabriel came in the form of a man, the companions were witnesses and there are recorded narrations about this. I have to go right now but I'll be back soon with explinations and proofs.

This is is news to me. Certainly, there are narrations that people were present for some revelations but as far as I know no one else actually saw or heard anything and the number of occasions is very small

 

[Zafran]

I want to know because I want assurance now, let face it, its a bit late to find out your heading for hell on the day of resurrection don't you think? It's only a person who thinks its a balancing act that would say "I've done enough". To Christians they can never do enough and their simple faith exercised through Jesus accepts God's mercy and its that mercy and love that change their whole lives and channels it in Gods way.

Just a point but suppose one does not become a Muslim until late in life then there is no time to pay back is there? But may be that is one difference between Muslims and Christians, the first can have no assurance and the second full assurance.

again i'm not sure you dont know this but as Muslims we do what we can but at the end of the day it is the mercy and generosity of God that gets us to heaven - the person who becomes late on as muslim again God is all merciful as long as the person sincere with a sound heart then the person has a chance.

Furthermore in christianty your deeds mean zero in Islam deeds and faith are 1 - we get rewarded for our deeds but the mercy and forgivness of God is the way to enter Heaven.

No offence you dont have no assurence whats so ever - nobody does. You have faith that your path is right - we believe ours is simply because its more merciful.

 

[Hugo]

again i'm not sure you dont know this but as Muslims we do what we can but at the end of the day it is the mercy and generosity of God that gets us to heaven.

Hugo - we can agree on this, we rely entirely on God's mercy and generosity. Where we differ is in how it is supplied.

- the person who becomes late on as muslim again God is all merciful as long as the person sincere with a sound heart then the person has a chance.

Furthermore in christianty your deeds mean zero in Islam deeds and faith are 1 - we get rewarded for our deeds but the mercy and forgivness of God is the way to enter Heaven.

No offence you dont have no assurence whats so ever - nobody does. You have faith that your path is right - we believe ours is simply because its more merciful.

This is not quite true because in Christianity ones faith is shown in a changed outlook and a life devoted to God's service in every way possible. Jesus speak of rewards but He say we will be rewarded for the smallest of tasks, even giving someone a drink of water. But such rewards are not to bale us out from sin, that has been done by him once for all and verified by His resurrection but rather as the fruit of a living relationship with God

You may feel I have no assurance but the Bible over and over tells us we have when we have faith we can also have assurance and that note of assurance can be found as early as the first few chapters of Genesis. Any Christian or Jew anywhere will tell you the same thing.

 

[Zafran]

This is not quite true because in Christianity ones faith is shown in a changed outlook and a life devoted to God's service in every way possible. Jesus speak of rewards but He say we will be rewarded for the smallest of tasks, even giving someone a drink of water. But such rewards are not to bale us out from sin, that has been done by him once for all and verified by His resurrection but rather as the fruit of a living relationship with God

You may feel I have no assurance but the Bible over and over tells us we have when we have faith we can also have assurance and that note of assurance can be found as early as the first few chapters of Genesis. Any Christian or Jew anywhere will tell you the same thing.

exactly - if you rely on your faith for your "salvation" so do Muslims - we are "assured" for heaven by our faith thanks to the belief in the genoristy and mercy of God - its all about faith - you feel like you have "assurence" so do we muslims.

In Islam its very similar - the bold you have written.

Like you talk about Genesis - by the way the Jews have a very different idea of salvation then christianty - christainty is specific on the death of christ - Jews dont believe in that.

Now furthermore it has been done for you - you have been bailed out (in your beliefs) - by the death of christ - which ironicly muslims reject. This is atonemnet and not forgivness - two exclusively different things.

 

['Abd-al Latif]

This is is news to me. Certainly, there are narrations that people were present for some revelations but as far as I know no one else actually saw or heard anything and the number of occasions is very small

I'm not gonna lie that I haven't read the bible and my reason is because I don't even know where to start. There are already so many different sects in christianity, and the new version and old version etc. But with regard to the corruption one can point it out from some of the verses in the bible through sound reasoning. But this topic I will come back to it later.

I don't believe that you've read the Qur'an because had you read it you would be fully aware of this verse:

"We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly Guard it (from corruption)." [Al-Qur’an 15:9].

There are other similar verses prove that the Qur'an is preseved by Almighty God Himself.

Muslims proclaim the corruption not because the message of Islam is weak, rather the message of christianity has lost it's roots and men came and altered it with their own hands. This is why Allah says in the Qur'an "Who unto those who write the book with their hands and say "This is from God"."

My advise to you is the same advise which I have given to other non-muslims before. Read the Qur'an and then speak about it and don't ask non-muslims about Islam unless your aim is futility.

 

[Tony]

:-[

Why do you think this? if we cant talk to God then who are we praying to. Of course we talk to Allah, thats why we dont have priests etc

No, I meant, we can't have a conversation back and forth with ALLAH(swt), yet we can talk to him in our prayers and dua'a(one way).[/QUOTE]

oh right I understand now. To be honest after I posted I thought maybe I had got it wqrong:-[ Peace brother