Things in Islam I am curious about...

in response to some non muslims in this thread regarding music to worship god using instruments do you not go to those church's just to get a chance to play an instrument or get involved in singing in front of people just for that enjoyment and forget the actual reason why you went to the church in the first place is to remember god?

i remember i only ever liked going to church just to sing with my class mates(can't sing a note btw just messed around lol) and just play instrument thats all i didn't care about god thats one of the reason instruments is haraam in islam because people forget about the actual purpose of why we are on this earth is to remember our creator...

music takes you away from all that. by the end of the mass we'd all walk out and we would forget what the priest had just said and then we wonder why our young ones go to clubs and sing and dance and have one night stands until one day they wake up and there old and they think i waisted my life who's fault was that.
 
in response to some non muslims in this thread regarding music to worship god using instruments do you not go to those church's just to get a chance to play an instrument or get involved in singing in front of people just for that enjoyment and forget the actual reason why you went to the church in the first place is to remember god?

i remember i only ever liked going to church just to sing with my class mates(can't sing a note btw just messed around lol) and just play instrument thats all i didn't care about god thats one of the reason instruments is haraam in islam because people forget about the actual purpose of why we are on this earth is to remember our creator...

music takes you away from all that. by the end of the mass we'd all walk out and we would forget what the priest had just said and then we wonder why our young ones go to clubs and sing and dance and have one night stands until one day they wake up and there old and they think i waisted my life who's fault was that.

It is good to share our experiences like this but they cannot be generalised into a principle. So this might all of course be true for you and for others but it is not a law of nature is it? The fact is that almost anything can make you forget what you are there for and this applies just as much in the Mosque or a Church. Two Muslim friends of mine recently told me how in the one case he got distracted because someone near him had a red tie on and my other friend was taken to task because his trousers distracted someone else!

I find for me that Music greatly enhances my worship but I do not and cannot argue from that, that it does it for everyone.
 
Yes. However, I was not speaking of that as such but about things in the world that are good. Now it may be that you have your own definition of what is a 'good' but for me it is something that has value and therefore we want to create it or preserve it. For example, social cohesion is a good, it has value and sometimes we need to create it and certainly we might want to preserve it.

But perhaps the import of you question was that God knows best about music and I am sure that is correct? But there is nothing in the Qu'ran that forbids music and if you search the hadith it is very hard to find anything but what I would call, without wanting to be disrespectful, anecdotes. Biblically, as I have said elsewhere we find wholehearted support for instrumental music and singling and it even goes as far as saying that the whole creation sings in praise of God.

I accept that many muslims (and scholars) do not have opinion that music is haram and I leave it at that.

I was only referring to your statement:

To my mind God would never deny us what is good and to my mind and probably a billion others music is good so I embrace it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but inferring from your statement, it is clear that your standard of what is good is if you and billions others think is good.
 
May I ask, why are beards considered so important in Islam (and Judaism)?

Many thanks.

They are not hugely important, but it is good to grow one for at least 3 reasons.

1. The Prophet Muhammad [saas] called it "The natural goodness." -Meaning it is allowing a natural, God-initiated event to occur without hindrance, and it serves as a "natural" distinction between men and women as well, as in traditional monotheist philosophy, men imitating women and vice versa is frowned upon.

2. It is considered an act of "imitating the Prophets" which contains some merit.

3. It is considered an act of NOT imitating polytheists. During the Prophets day, most pagans shaved their beards and grew their moustaches, and so our Prophet [saas] ordered us to do the opposite.

Hope this helps. :-)
 
Thank you brother!

Can I ask, are visiting the Holy Mosques in Mecca and Medina allowed throughout the year, or does one have to be on a Hajj to visit them?
 
Thank you brother!

Can I ask, are visiting the Holy Mosques in Mecca and Medina allowed throughout the year, or does one have to be on a Hajj to visit them?

You can visit those sites any time. I actually went several months ago (shameless plugging!)
 
But not visiting them during the Hajj, are the mosques still very busy and very crowded?

They are always busy but the thing is, the Kaba sharif (in Makkah) and the Prophet's Mosque in Madina are HUGE. There are certain areas within both places that are packed all the time (usually at the front) but the acual total capacity of each of them really is gigantic.
 
They are always busy but the thing is, the Kaba sharif (in Makkah) and the Prophet's Mosque in Madina are HUGE. There are certain areas within both places that are packed all the time (usually at the front) but the acual total capacity of each of them really is gigantic.

Would you say they're bigger than a football stadium?
 
in response to some non muslims in this thread regarding music to worship god using instruments do you not go to those church's just to get a chance to play an instrument or get involved in singing in front of people just for that enjoyment and forget the actual reason why you went to the church in the first place is to remember god?
No. That's not my experience. When I sing in church is most definitely not for my enjoyment, but as an expression of my worship of God.

i remember i only ever liked going to church just to sing with my class mates(can't sing a note btw just messed around lol) and just play instrument thats all i didn't care about god
Sounds like you were there for God at all then, but for yourself. I don't think that would be a problem with music per se, but with your own heart and its focus.

thats one of the reason instruments is haraam in islam because people forget about the actual purpose of why we are on this earth is to remember our creator...
It that really is the reason, sounds like a case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

music takes you away from all that. by the end of the mass we'd all walk out and we would forget what the priest had just said and then we wonder why our young ones go to clubs and sing and dance and have one night stands until one day they wake up and there old and they think i waisted my life who's fault was that.
Who's fault? Who made the decisions you described?

Again, this all sounds like a case of people not just forgetting about God as they walk out, but of people who evidently weren't even properly focused on God on the way in. Saying that this is music's fault is like a man blaming his own lust filled heart on a woman for looking good.


Please don't receive this as an attack on you, personally, that is not what this thread is about. Your own response, as a Muslim, is what we are after and appreciate. I only answered as I did because you asked direct questions of us as Christains. Now, if I may, I would like to return to the purpose of this thread, which is to learn more about Isalm.


The discussion with regard to music, which continues to dominate so much of this thread seems to stem from a declaration that there is something inherently bad in music. Is this a fair evaluation?

In Christianity, we are taught that when God created the world that he made everything good, even Satan himself was originally one of God's angels. Evil only exists as a perversion of the good things that God created. For example: sex is good, but sex outside of marriage is bad because that is a good gift of God being misused for selfish ends. So the question:

Does Islam believe that the world as God created it was a good and perfect world? Or does Islam see some things as inherently good and some things as inherently evil?
 
I find it an odd concept that we become more righteous - we can follow God and do good works but mercy belongs to God not any righteousness we might attain. Why is that a righteous person would give up music - I see no logic in that at all and Prophet David throughout the Psalms urges us to sing praises to God as much as we can. There is nowhere in the Qu'ran or the Bible where we are told that giving up music is a righteous acts or brings blessing - so why do you think that?

In the Muslim tradition, one of the names of Allah [swt] is Ash-Shakoor, it means, "The grateful" or, "the appreciative." When we are discussing the names of Allah [swt], this means they are His attributes, or, elements of His Nature or essence.

Part of the act of appreciation is to show ones gratefulness. Allah [swt] shows His gratefulness for our good by giving the good we do some value, while it would otherwise have none. Part of that value is that it elevates us spiritually in ways that cannot be seen or understood fully by outside observers, but rather is a personal experience.

For example the Qu'ran says that "in the Dhikr of Allah [Dhikr is what Muslims call their litanies, an Arabic word which means, 'remembrance.'] hearts will find rest." -Another tradition of the Prophet Muhammad [saas] states that litanies will polish the heart, i.e. make it more pure.

Now, a person who sits in a mosque in solitude, before only his Creator, saying litanies of praise and seeking forgiveness... well the results are internal. You can't see them... but the person doing it surely feels it. He feels tranquility, a sense of security, he feels the anger, envy, and love of the temporal world evaporate a *little* more from his heart, and so on... And the more he does it, the more he will want to do it, and the results will become more and more permanent as time goes on. Not only that, but in the Muslim tradition, such a one is accumulating reward in the next life as well.

Now who gave this simple deeds such effects and results? Not me! I dont own the ability to give increase or decrease to the value of worship! Rather it was the Creator of the deed, Ash-Shakoor, the Appreciative One! And in my opinion, this is one of the great beauties of Islam. God gives our worthless deeds value, because one of the aspects of His perfect nature is Appreciation.

Now, how this relates to music is also a matter of an internal aspect of the religion which cannot be seen by an outside observer. One of the companions of Muhammad [saas] said that the Prophet emptied their hearts of everything, so that he could fill it with Islam. We could put it another way, the more love that resides in your heart for worship and closeness to Allah [swt], the less room there is for other things that can distract you from that love and closeness. Muslim scholars have traditionally forbidden many forms of music because of the control it can have over you. A Christian friend of mine once commented that people who dance look possessed. I was amazed at his insight, while he himself listened to music in every waking moment. Music also affects your brainwaves, pulse, blood pressure, etc. And our brains and hearts are like receptors, soaking it all up.

Something which controls us to such a degree could bring about harm, could easily distract us from our true purpose of knowing Allah [swt], etc. However, other scholars, such as Abu Hamid Al-Ghazali, Ibn Hazm, and for a modern scholar, Sheiykh Yusuf Qaradawi have allowed it pending that it's message or environment it was listened to in was not forbidden or sinful. BUT they also go on to comment that if a muslim is listening to music, they still have to be their own mufti over their hearts. If they see that music is making them feel depressed, or giving them bad inclinations, or making them feel empty once the music goes away [as one brother has already commented on in this forum], or if they find they are not as close to Allah [swt] as they were before they started listening to music, then in this case they have to stop.

I incline toward the latter view myself, personally, but Allahu Alim.

Hope this has clarified the Muslim position on such issues. :-)
 
I was in Makkah/Madinah in april for umrah. Masjidil Haraam in Makkah was *always* busy and packed with people 24 hours. And that is understatement in my opinion. In fact, the most quiet time in my estimate was around 8-10 am, and even then it was still almost not possible to do the tawaf (circumambulating) in the inner circles closest to kabah.
Masjid Nabawwi in madinah is also busy 24 hours, although most of its doors are closed between 10 pm - 3 am, except those in the front parts (around the original parts of the masjid where the prophet's grave and his mimbar are located).

Although both masjid are open year round, but visas for umrah are not provided for would be foreign visitors for around 2 months after the Hajj, in order for cleaning/preparation/renovation/reconstruction to take place. So you can still go to both mosques if you are already in Saudi Arabia. Last year my brother was there on business in March when umrah visa was not reopened, and he was able to perform umrah.

I read somewhere that masjidil haraam has a total capacity of around 3 millions people while masjid nabawwi has a total capacity of 2 millions. So yes, is safe to say that they both are bigger than a football stadium.
 
Does Islam believe that the world as God created it was a good and perfect world? Or does Islam see some things as inherently good and some things as inherently evil?

I will try to explain this as i understand it. In the Muslim view, the world is a creation of God, and it has been created for a serious purpose [i.e. God wasn't just playing around when He created it]... Part of that purpose requires that there be some good in the world, and some evil. But the understanding of that good and evil, it's purposes, and origins, it's causes, how to enhance the good and get rid of the evil, etc. are all very important aspects of islamic philosophy and tradition. A simple answer is, the good and the evil of the world emerges from the hearts [souls] of human beings. Foul hearts produce corruption in the earth, sound hearts produce beauty. A sound heart is that which knows, loves, worships, and is devoted to God, a foul heart knows only envy, hatred, greed, love of the world, heedlessness, miserliness, etc.

Such matters are covered in Usuul eldeen, or the inner fiqh, what we would call the sciences of the heart, or 'inner meanings of Islam' in English.
 
I accept that many muslims (and scholars) do not have opinion that music is haram and I leave it at that. I was only referring to your statement:

To my mind God would never deny us what is good and to my mind and probably a billion others music is good so I embrace it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but inferring from your statement, it is clear that your standard of what is good is if you and billions others think is good.

No you need to read what I have said in that I gave a definition of what I meant was good viz-

' 'good' but for me it is something that has value and therefore we want to create it or preserve it. For example, social cohesion is a good, it has value and sometimes we need to create it and certainly we might want to preserve it.

I stated that for me music was good for me by this definition and billions agreed with me. But my standard if we call it that was my definition. We know some things are good and some bad as is written

Colossians 3 (NIV) 5. Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. .... anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9. Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10. and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator... 12. Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

So this if you like is a starting point but the Bible or Qu'ran cannot possibly list everything that is good or bad but I doubt anyone would disagree with the list given above.

So armed with the above list which we can treat as a set of principles (that is what the Bible and Qu'ran do) we can use the definition I gave and come to a rational conclusion about Music or many other things - one cannot rely on Mosaic law or sharia because obviously there will be new things which could not possibly have been covered by those.

What is your definition of then idea of something being 'good'?
 
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The hadith which relates of how the adhan came to be, it also tells of how the Prophet's companions suggested the use of musical instruments such as the horn or bell like the People of the Book. Now although the Prophet ultimately approved the use of the human voice, there is no mention that the Prophet chastised his companions for suggesting musical instruments for the adhan. And if the Prophet was so very much against musical instruments, then why would his companions dare to suggest the use of such sinful things in the call to prayer?

Simply because when the Companions suggested these things not many Quranic Verses were revealed at the time fully describing what was halal and haram(keep in mind when they suggested this, the first call to prayer in history wasn't even made yet). The Prophet(S) as you even said didn't wan't to use the horn of the bell because he wanted to decipher the religion as its own and not like that of The people of the Book. After it was agreed by the Prophet(S) to only use the human voice then did Bilal Al Habashee,shortly later use only his voice, to make the first athan, being the first Muathhin ever.
 
:sl:


Are we allowed to make dua like this ?

..... Bilal Ibn al-Harith approached the grave of the Prophet in the year of the Ramadah (drought), during the caliphate of ^Umar and said: «O Messenger of Allah, ask of Allah rain for your nation as they are in ruins», related by al-Bayhaqiyy and others.

Neither ^Umar nor anyone else denounced his words. In fact they praised his act.

Allah said:
وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِن رَّسُولٍ إِلاَّ لِيُطَاعَ بِإِذْنِ اللّهِ وَلَوْ أَنَّهُمْ إِذ ظَّلَمُواْ أَنفُسَهُمْ جَآؤُوكَ فَاسْتَغْفَرُواْ اللّهَ وَاسْتَغْفَرَ لَهُمُ الرَّسُولُ لَوَجَدُواْ اللّهَ تَوَّابًا رَّحِيمًا


(Suratun-Nisa’, Ayah 64) means: [If only, when they are unjust to themselves, they come to you and ask Allah for forgiveness, and the Messenger asks forgiveness for them, they will find Allah Forgiving and Most Merciful.]


An additional proof is in the hadith related by al-Bukhariyy in Al-Adab Al-Mufrad. It reveals that when Ibn ^Umar’s leg became paralyzed, in his call for help he said: “O Muhammad.” His call was answered with a cure.

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/archive/index.php?t-2610.html
 
It was very occasional during that time, some greedy people were claiming to have several AHADITH and were given respect for their knowledge.

Those are included in books also even some times to tell next generation how people were started playing with their Prophet's sayings.

It is better to check its narrators and their authenticity.

And there is a general principle which says any thing which is contradicted to the Holy Quran shall be considered vail.

May Allah grant us the right path as Allah knows the best.
 
Apparently, this needs to be posted again:

In regards to the music issue, i think, on a 'comparative religion' forum it's best not even to bring up the topic of music for a couple of reasons.

1. In traditional understanding, Sacred law was not revealed to the companions of Muhammad [saas] until they firmly grasped Tawhid, social justice, the articles of faith, the concept of heaven and hell, etc. This is the companions, so, certainly it would be wise to deal with non-Muslims in the same fashion.

2. Music is a debated issue among muslims, and we should stick to issues that are a little less debated, such as Tawhid, the perfection of Qu'ran, messengership of Muhammad [saas], etc.

3. No one has ever become Muslim after hearing that music was haraam, but some people may avoid becoming Muslim if they hear music is haraam, because we live in such times of fitnah and jahaliyah. It is better for someone to be a Muslim who listens to music, than a non-Muslim who listens to music.

4. If Allah [swt] intends to guide a person, then when they become Muslim, they will not be righteous overnight. Maybe they will love music more than anything when they first become Muslim, but as their heart is fulfilled more and more by the deen over the years, a time will come when they will most likely leave off of it anyways, whether they consider it haraam or not.

I really request that there should be no more discussion of music on this thread, as it is off topic to the general idea behind this thread [non-Muslims asking about things they are curious about in Islam, not Muslims debating each other on the permissability of Music].

If you guys wana discuss that issue, or debate any other issue irrelevent to this thread, I suggest you start a new thread. :-)
 
Simply because when the Companions suggested these things not many Quranic Verses were revealed at the time fully describing what was halal and haram(keep in mind when they suggested this, the first call to prayer in history wasn't even made yet). The Prophet(S) as you even said didn't wan't to use the horn of the bell because he wanted to decipher the religion as its own and not like that of The people of the Book. After it was agreed by the Prophet(S) to only use the human voice then did Bilal Al Habashee,shortly later use only his voice, to make the first athan, being the first Muathhin ever.
This is an interesting point because it is obvious that the Qu'ran does not define everything that is allowed or forbidden and many things such as music were dealt with later because there was no clear teaching in the Qu'ran. The same is true now of course; if I consider air travel then it is obvious I am not going to find a yes or no for that in the Qu'ran or Hadith.

We also have the issue that circumstances often dictated what became Islamic law and we see this in the ideas of consensus and analogy as a means of defining law. What I find curious is that although circumstances have changed in the last 14 centuries some or perhaps most, I don't know, cling to things in Islamic law where either the institutions that required them or just circumstance no longer apply. So to me it is puzzling that I see some clinging strongly to music being forbidden but no one argues for restoration of slavery yet the same body of laws deal with both - without wanting to be insulting is this not a bit schizophrenic?
 
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