Things in Islam I am curious about...

[Justufy]

I was refering to this what Hugo wrote



so deeds to matter to go to heaven? at all in christainty. So whats there point in christainty?

He means that both matter here.

 

[Zafran]

He means that both matter here.

how whats the use of deeds in christainty?

 

[Grace Seeker]

so deeds dont matter to go to heaven? at all in christainty. So whats there point in christainty?

Actually, deeds do matter. We are not saved by our deeds, but a life without deeds is evidence of a life without faith, and without faith one cannot be saved.

I know that there are Christians who are so hung up on Luther's or Augustine's particular interpretation of Paul that they can't see any role for deeds whatsoever, I just refer you to Matthew 25 and James 2 for biblical evidence of the importance of deeds with regard to salvation. Personally, I think that those who claim that there is no place for deeds aren't even reading Paul well for even he tells us to "work out your salvation". But on an internet forum don't expect to hear the whole spectrum of Christian thought.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Now, back to Things in Islam I am curious about....

No belief is not only about knowledge, you have to feel the truth in your beliefs from your heart as well, personally I feel total contentment and certainty in my beliefs from within. I don't have to trust and just hope for the best that my beliefs are true, I KNOW they're true and in my heart I'm fully satisfied with them. I've never had any doubts about them and little things on a day to day basis reaffirm my beliefs, make my faith stronger, experiences also.

You can ask any practising muslim and they'll say the same

I think I understand, but want to be sure. Are you making a distinction between "trust" and "beliefs from your heart"?

Or how is saying "I know they are true" different from saying that "I trust (i.e., have confidence) that they are true"?

 

[alcurad]

I think brother aadil77 was simply expressing what he felt.

 

[aadil77]

Now, back to Things in Islam I am curious about....



I think I understand, but want to be sure. Are you making a distinction between "trust" and "beliefs from your heart"?

Or how is saying "I know they are true" different from saying that "I trust (i.e., have confidence) that they are true"?

What I meant is that I don't have to hope that what I believe in is true

 

[Grace Seeker]

What I meant is that I don't have to hope that what I believe in is true

Because hope springs from faith. One's faith is not the result of unfounded hope. So, if one has faith and within that faith are given reasons to have hope, then it is a given that if one believes one also has hope. This would be the Christian view as well.


But I'm still asking if you could clarify for me, are you making a distinction between "trust" and what you term "beliefs from your heart"?

 

[revert2007]

An advice

How are doing?

Here is the thing you should know before you read further and get stuck and get confuse.Islam is so wide and there are many level of Muslims.The best Muslims are those follow the sunnah of the prophet pbuh and follow the example of his companions.

I have known many non Muslim who later on converted alhamdulilah,complaint about everything they read.You must understand one thing when you read.The situation or the state of your mind and heart is totally different than a perosn with faith in Allah.so you might argue about everything.Becareful with what you read as syaitan can easily trap you and use this as an excuse for you not to accept Islam.

In hadith there is only 3 things asked to a non Muslim before he decided to take the shahadah.

1.Accept Allah as the only Creator and accept Muhammad pbuh as the final messenger and slave of Allah.

2.Accept to pray 5 times daily

3.Accept to pay charity.


once u have agreed on all three,you can take your shahadah.You do not need to think about music,about hijab(for women of course),about being divorce from your partner if your husband is not a Muslim(for women again)....


Once you base of Islam is trong and your faith has grow stronger and your prayer is stable,then continue to learn more about Islam.when ones iman is strong,Allah Himself will open His slaves heart to worship Him in greater level.

You do no need to try hard.if you havnt given up music or hvnt wear hijab(for women),then Allah hasn't will you yet.make dua to Him of course.


I am a Sister here and I have been a Muslim for 3 years(coming 12th April).
This whole 3 years has changed me a lot and I learned to do more things only for HIs sake.no one forced me to do more things.With love for Allah The Exalted and Muhammad pbuh,you will be able to follow the true Islamic teaching in sha Allah.

increase in knowledge will increase your ibadah (act of worship).

So do not confuse yourself and make yourself too late to accept the truth.

Good Luck

 

[Hugo]

What I meant is that I don't have to hope that what I believe in is true

This is an interesting phrase - does it mean you are certain, not a shadow of a doubt? If so it must be one supposes based on something that might be regarded as a fact? Does it ever occur to you that you might be wrong?

 

[Hugo]

Re: An advice

Here is the thing you should know before you read further and get stuck and get confuse.Islam is so wide and there are many level of Muslims.The best Muslims are those follow the sunnah of the prophet pbuh and follow the example of his companions.

I have known many non Muslim who later on converted alhamdulilah,complaint about everything they read.You must understand one thing when you read.The situation or the state of your mind and heart is totally different than a perosn with faith in Allah.so you might argue about everything.Becareful with what you read as syaitan can easily trap you and use this as an excuse for you not to accept Islam.

In hadith there is only 3 things asked to a non Muslim before he decided to take the shahadah.

1.Accept Allah as the only Creator and accept Muhammad pbuh as the final messenger and slave of Allah.
2.Accept to pray 5 times daily
3.Accept to pay charity.

once u have agreed on all three,you can take your shahadah.You do not need to think about music,about hijab(for women of course),about being divorce from your partner if your husband is not a Muslim(for women again)....

Once you base of Islam is trong and your faith has grow stronger and your prayer is stable,then continue to learn more about Islam.when ones iman is strong,Allah Himself will open His slaves heart to worship Him in greater level.

You do no need to try hard.if you havnt given up music or hvnt wear hijab(for women),then Allah hasn't will you yet.make dua to Him of course.

I am a Sister here and I have been a Muslim for 3 years(coming 12th April).
This whole 3 years has changed me a lot and I learned to do more things only for HIs sake.no one forced me to do more things.With love for Allah The Exalted and Muhammad pbuh,you will be able to follow the true Islamic teaching in sha Allah.increase in knowledge will increase your ibadah (act of worship). So do not confuse yourself and make yourself too late to accept the truth.

What is interesting here is that Christians (and probably other faiths) would say much the same things - that one has to accept certain beliefs, that one's whole life is changed, no one forces them to do anything, they follow Biblical teachings and knowledge grows and that others should not be confused and accept the truth?

I suppose what I am saying is that these set of things don't mean one has the truth so one is back to faith and hope in what you have heard. Do you agree or perhaps you think there are many ways to God?

 

[aadil77]

Because hope springs from faith. One's faith is not the result of unfounded hope. So, if one has faith and within that faith are given reasons to have hope, then it is a given that if one believes one also has hope. This would be the Christian view as well.


But I'm still asking if you could clarify for me, are you making a distinction between "trust" and what you term "beliefs from your heart"?

I think you're making it out more complicated than it is, its just pure belief.

When I mentioned hope and trust it wasn't about hope and trust in Allah regarding certain things that we develope as a result of faith. It was about belief, if you believe in something with absolute certainty - in this case the basics of islam (Allah is the only god with no partners) - you shouldn't have to put trust and hope into it cause that suggests theres room for doubt.

 

[Grace Seeker]

I think you're making it out more complicated than it is, its just pure belief.

When I mentioned hope and trust it wasn't about hope and trust in Allah regarding certain things that we develope as a result of faith. It was about belief, if you believe in something with absolute certainty - in this case the basics of islam (Allah is the only god with no partners) - you shouldn't have to put trust and hope into it cause that suggests theres room for doubt.

I suspect it is a question of linguistics. For me, because I use these terms in a religious context, my education in Koine Greek (the language of the New Testament) impacts my understanding of these words even in their English forms. Faith (pistis), Hope (elpis), to Trust (pistos) along with Belief (pisteo) all have the same root to them and carry the same essential meaning. One can use the terms virtually interchangably. They are all expressions of confidence (I trust that this chair is going to hold me, that's why I was willing to sit in it.) and do not express anything of the nature of doubt.

The only place where I think we might disagree is your use of the phrase "if you believe in something with absolute certianty" -- if you believe, then you believe, to add the phrase "with absolute certainty" is to be redundant. It's only if one entertains doubts that one must add such a statement, and then the truth is that you really don't have "pure belief" for you have allowed for doubt to mix in as well.

Thanks for taking the time to engage in helping me to understand not just your words, aadil77, but the nuances and connotations behind them behind them better. It seems our basic understandings of what it means to say "I believe", whether one is speaking as a Muslim or as a Christian, are indeed very much the same -- both emphasize that one's beliefs must originate in the certainty of the heart toward the object of that belief. So it is that you have said above: "I KNOW they're true and in my heart I'm fully satisfied with them." And a Christian might say, with Paul, "I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him for that day" (2 Timothy 1:12).

 

[revert2007]

Re: An advice

What is interesting here is that Christians (and probably other faiths) would say much the same things - that one has to accept certain beliefs, that one's whole life is changed, no one forces them to do anything, they follow Biblical teachings and knowledge grows and that others should not be confused and accept the truth?

I suppose what I am saying is that these set of things don't mean one has the truth so one is back to faith and hope in what you have heard. Do you agree or perhaps you think there are many ways to God?

well lets talk about converting to christinity and Judaism.do u think it is easy?to convert to christinity u need hours of lectures in the church..and to convert to judaism u need to go through many complicated procedures...if someone want to accept the truth of God,why would human make it complicated and who are these humans in between a person and The God?

in Islam is simple..

u accept Allah as the only CRetor and Muhammad pbuh as the final messenger
accept to pray 5 times
accept to pay charity

thats it..say the shahadah and ur a muslim..and perform ghuls so that u can begin to pray.

i can obviously see that other religion are making things complicated.

the diiference between Islam and other religions is that Islam is not a belief but the truth need to be accepted.
if u say belief..u hv the choice to belive or not..and since ur grandparents and parents believed in something,u gotta believe the same thing.

in christinity itself people have various believes.

Islam has only One TRUTH and a person who is guided by Allah will see the truth and accept.

u cannot compare two different things.

• Islam's scripture(Quran) is the word of God and the scriptures of Judaism and Christinity were just inspired by The God.
  
• Islam has final messenger that need to be followed by all mankind but other religions,they were sent prophets only for certain period of time.

and the list can go on .....

have a great day

 

[revert2007]

I think you're making it out more complicated than it is, its just pure belief.

When I mentioned hope and trust it wasn't about hope and trust in Allah regarding certain things that we develope as a result of faith. It was about belief, if you believe in something with absolute certainty - in this case the basics of islam (Allah is the only god with no partners) - you shouldn't have to put trust and hope into it cause that suggests theres room for doubt.

Brother,am not sure what you said is right or wrong or maybe the choose of term is not right,Allahu alam

when i was a non Muslim,i had a belief that I must believe those things need to be worshiped and actually my previous religion doesn't have any evidence of the God or what we need to do.basically they do what have been taught to them by their parents and acestors.this u can simply call belief as u have the choice to believe it.at some point i was believing it but then i decided not to believe in those things anymore.it is not that i became atheist but i do know God exist but I realised i have been doing the right thing at the wrong place

this is what most people out there do.

when i found Islam(at the age of 8 and the learning process continued for the next 12 years),i can obviously see that Islam is not a belief that being taught by the ancestors but it is an order of truth by The Creator Himself.
once a person's heart is opened to accept the truth(gets hidayah from Allah),he will accept the truth by declaring the shahadah.

the believing part only comes in for the 6 pillar of iman/faith where we need to believe as that is the order from The Creator.
but Islam itself not a belief but it is the order of truth by Allah The Exalted.

and Allah Knows The Best.

 

[revert2007]

I suspect it is a question of linguistics. For me, because I use these terms in a religious context, my education in Koine Greek (the language of the New Testament) impacts my understanding of these words even in their English forms. Faith (pistis), Hope (elpis), to Trust (pistos) along with Belief (pisteo) all have the same root to them and carry the same essential meaning. One can use the terms virtually interchangably. They are all expressions of confidence (I trust that this chair is going to hold me, that's why I was willing to sit in it.) and do not express anything of the nature of doubt.

The only place where I think we might disagree is your use of the phrase "if you believe in something with absolute certianty" -- if you believe, then you believe, to add the phrase "with absolute certainty" is to be redundant. It's only if one entertains doubts that one must add such a statement, and then the truth is that you really don't have "pure belief" for you have allowed for doubt to mix in as well.

Thanks for taking the time to engage in helping me to understand not just your words, aadil77, but the nuances and connotations behind them behind them better. It seems our basic understandings of what it means to say "I believe", whether one is speaking as a Muslim or as a Christian, are indeed very much the same -- both emphasize that one's beliefs must originate in the certainty of the heart toward the object of that belief. So it is that you have said above: "I KNOW they're true and in my heart I'm fully satisfied with them." And a Christian might say, with Paul, "I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him for that day" (2 Timothy 1:12).

I hope you can understand and deffirentiate between belief and order of truth from my other 2 posts above.in sha Allah you will find the answer you are looking for.

 

[revert2007]

Re: An advice

Do you agree or perhaps you think there are many ways to God?

Sorry forgot to answer your second question.There are various to get to the God yet those ways must be still from The God Himself.

for example,during Moses' pbuh time,what is the way to God?
Accept Allah as the only God(practise monotheism) and accept Moses pbuh and follow the OT and obey the ten commandments.

Prophet Muhammad pbuh is not there yet and the term Islam might have not been used by that time yet the meaning of Islam which is subbmission to One God has been practised.

Same goes to Jesus pbuh and in OT there are many verses proving that Jesus pbuh was just a prophet and he himself ordered to worship The Father(don't compare Father with father) who is greater than him and he himself prostrated and worshiped.

As if people at his time accepted Allah as the only God and accept Jesus pbuh as a PROPHET,then in sha Allah they all will enter paradise.

People of The Book who can enter paradise.

002.062 Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians, any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no
fear, nor shall they grieve.[

005.069 Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians, any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.


People of The Book who cannot enter paradise.


005.072 They do blaspheme who say: "God is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! Worship God, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with God. God will forbid him the Garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There
will for the wrong doers be no one to help.

003.085 If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to
God), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He
will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).

When Allah sent Muhammad pbuh as the final messenger and He ordered all mankind to follow the message brough by the final messenger.

as det 18:18
"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and I will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him"


Christians claim that Jesus pbuh is the prophet like Moses in that scripture yet they rejected the ten commandments as they said it is only for Jews.by the way all prophets were sent to Jews.and Christinity didn;t exist during Jesus' time.

but obvioulsy Muhammad pbuh messaged contains all the ten commandments and it is even in Quran and hadith.

meaningof brethren: Also called half brother/ a male offspring having only one parent in common with another offspring. /a stepbrother


Moses and his people, the Jews, are here addressed as a racial entity, and as such their "BRETHREN" undoubtedly be the Arabs.

You see, The Holy Bible speaks of Abraham as the "Friend of God". Abraham had two wives- Sarah and Hagar.

'Hagar bore Abraham a son-HIS FIRST BORN-'.....AND ABRAM' CALLED HIS SON'S NAME, WHICH HAGAR BARE, ISHMAEL'(Genesis 16:15)

'AND ABRAHAM TOOK ISHMAEL HIS SON. (Genesis 17:23)



'AND ISHMAEL HIS SON WAS THIRTEEN YEARS OLD,WHEN HE WAS CIRCUMCISED IN THE FLESH OF HIS FORESKIN'(Genesis 17:25)

Up to the age of THIRTEEN Ishmael was the ONLY son and seed of Abraham, when the convenant was ratified between God and Abraham.God grants Abraham another son through Sarah named Isaac,who was very much the junior to his brother Ishmael.


If Ishmael and Isaac are the sons of the same father Abraham,then they are brothers. AND SO THE CHILDREN OF THE ONE ARE THE BRETHREN OF THE CHILDREN OF THE OTHER.

The children of Isaac are the Jews and the children of Ishmael are the Arabs.-so they are BRETHREN to one another.

The Bible affirms,'AND HE(ISHMAEL) SHALL DWELL IN THE PRESENCE OF ALL HIS BRETHREN;(Genesis 16:12)


'AND HE (ISHMAEL) DIED IN THE PRESENCE OF ALL HIS BRETHREN.'(Genesis 25:18)
The children of Isaac are the brethren of the Ishmaelites. In like manner Muhammad is from among the brethren of the Israelites because he was a descendant of Ishmael teh son of Abraham.

This is exactly as the prophecy has it-'FROM AMONG THEIR BRETHREN'.(Deut 18:18)

There the prophecy disticntly mentions that the coming prophet who would be like Moses,must arise NOT from the "children of Israel" or from 'among themselves" ,but from among their brethren. MUHAMMAD THEREFORE WAS FROM AMONG THEIR BRETHREN.



"......... and I will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."
Deuteronomy chapter 18 verse 18:
now u see this evidence from quran


96.1 Proclaim! (or read!) in the name of thy Lord and Cherisher, Who created-
96.2 Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood:
96.3 Proclaim! And thy Lord is Most Bountiful,-
96.4 He Who taught (the use of) the pen,-
96.5 Taught man that which he knew not.
96) Sūrat Al-`Alaq

Here the angel Gabriel keep on asking the Prophet to Read/proclaim..but the prophet said i can't read..so since he can't read the angel Gabriel taught him how to read via literally putting the words in his mouth.


those were the first 5 verses of Quran revealed to Muhammad pbuh and his revelation began

so if you ask me what is the way to get to God,the answer is only one-ISLAM-

have a great day

 

[Supreme]

Re: An advice

I suppose what I am saying is that these set of things don't mean one has the truth so one is back to faith and hope in what you have heard. Do you agree or perhaps you think there are many ways to God?

With all respect, that is a stupid question. Islam, just like Christianity, is an incredibly exclusivist religion- ie, if you don't believe in my God, my God will punish you in agonizing pain eternally for His reluctance to grant you a mind that could accept Him as your God. Christianity, to some extent, has tried to pave over its exclusivist theology with the doctrine of salvation for humankind, rather than salvation for just Christians who believe Jesus died for their sins, however, the idea of exclusive salvation is still ever present. And it's evident in the most famous Bible verse of them all, John 3:16, where it states all who believe in Him shall not perish but have eternal life (ie belief is absoloutely necessary to save yourself from Hell, and Jesus' salvation was not universal.).

 

[Grace Seeker]

Re: An advice

to convert to christinity u need hours of lectures in the church....

Actually that's not true. There might be individual churches that have such expectations before they are willing to recognize your membership in their particular instution, but converting to Christianity is extremely easy. The apostle Paul wrote to the church at Rome, "if you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved" (Romans 10:9). On another occassion, in answering the jailer's question as to how to be saved, he declared it was even simpler, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved" (Acts 16:31).

I personally have known lots of people who became a Christian, not after attending hours of lectures, but have heard the Gospel they offered a simple prayer such as:

God, I believe that your son, Jesus Christ, died for my sins, was resurrected from the dead, is alive, and hears my prayer.
I invite Jesus to become the Lord of my life, to rule and reign in my heart from this day forward. AMEN.

 

[Hugo]

Re: An advice

With all respect, that is a stupid question. Islam, just like Christianity, is an incredibly exclusivist religion- ie, if you don't believe in my God, my God will punish you in agonizing pain eternally for His reluctance to grant you a mind that could accept Him as your God. Christianity, to some extent, has tried to pave over its exclusivist theology with the doctrine of salvation for humankind, rather than salvation for just Christians who believe Jesus died for their sins, however, the idea of exclusive salvation is still ever present. And it's evident in the most famous Bible verse of them all, John 3:16, where it states all who believe in Him shall not perish but have eternal life (ie belief is absoloutely necessary to save yourself from Hell, and Jesus' salvation was not universal.).

I think you are little muddled or do you think anything that has shall I call them 'rules' is by definition exclusive? Whether you believe or not is up to you, no one is forcing it on you as far as I know. If Christianity says it is necessary to believe then I cannot see why that is not universal, there are no exceptions in the verse about race or colour or any other thing, it is an invitation to all, if you reject it that is a matter for you.

 

[Hugo]

Re: An advice

well lets talk about converting to christinity and Judaism.do u think it is easy?to convert to christinity u need hours of lectures in the church..and to convert to judaism u need to go through many complicated procedures...if someone want to accept the truth of God,why would human make it complicated and who are these humans in between a person and The God?

in Islam is simple.. u accept Allah as the only CRetor and Muhammad pbuh as the final messenger accept to pray 5 times accept to pay charity thats it..say the shahadah and ur a muslim..and perform ghuls so that u can begin to pray. i can obviously see that other religion are making things complicated. the diiference between Islam and other religions is that Islam is not a belief but the truth need to be accepted. if u say belief..u hv the choice to belive or not..and since ur grandparents and parents believed in something,u gotta believe the same thing. Islam has only One TRUTH and a person who is guided by Allah will see the truth and accept. u cannot compare two different things.

Islam's scripture(Quran) is the word of God and the scriptures of Judaism and Christinity were just inspired by The God. Islam has final messenger that need to be followed by all mankind but other religions,they were sent prophets only for certain period of time. and the list can go on .....

With all due respect simply stating Islamic doctrine does not make it the truth it take more than that. I also cannot quite work out what this argument about 'complicated' is about as it seem to me a bit foolish and I don't know where you get these ideas from and you seem to contradicting yourself as you argued earlier that it was important to gain knowledge so one cannot have it both ways.