Things in Islam I am curious about...

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/Peace

How are sinners transformed from being understood as sinners to being counted among the righteous in Islam?

But whoever repents after his wrongdoing and reforms, indeed, Allaah will turn to him in forgiveness. Indeed, Allaah is Forgiving and Merciful.[Quran 5:39]



The Prophet

, said: “A person who repents from the sins he has committed is like a person who has not committed a sin."



Allaah Knows best.

http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/fatwa/ShowFatwa.php?lang=E&Id=99167&Option=FatwaId

 

[Hugo]

Exactly why I contend you are asking the same question of Islam that could be asked of Christianity. How does God in holiness simply ignore our sins and impute righteousness to us, because of Christ? You object to a persons own good deeds being considered sufficient merit to result in God's mercy (though as I have listened, I don't hear it quite presented that way), but we also claim that another's (Christ's) meritorious work is applied to us and become the sufficient cause of our salvation. The question that might be asked of both of us is, how? How does God in holiness simply ignore our wrong doings?

Of course I am asking the same question, there can be no question more important than knowing how God brings about redemption of fallen humanity. I don't object to a person displaying good deeds my only point was that to me, and the Bibles confirms it, that that alone it is not enough, never will be enough to make us right with God.

The law demands perfect righteousness, there is no half measures so the question is can man reach that level of perfection and thus claim the right to eternity, such a man would not need mercy because he as it were has earned his place in heaven. The Bible states in Romans 5:16-23 (NIV)

16. Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgement followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17. For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. 18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. ​

This make it clear that righteousness is a gift from God enabled through faith in Jesus and His act of righteousness. Jesus in this act in some unfathomable way takes the punishment that is ours and sets us free to live in love for God a Holy life and assures us now of eternal security.

 

[Grace Seeker]

This make it clear that righteousness is a gift from God enabled through faith in Jesus and His act of righteousness. Jesus in this act in some unfathomable way takes the punishment that is ours and sets us free to live in love for God a Holy life and assures us now of eternal security.

Yes, but it only makes it clear what it is that God does, not how he does it. Hence why I am saying that your original question:

Again I come back to my original point that if I murdered someone then no amount of good deeds previous to that would allow me to go free from that act - so why is it that a righteous God can act in that way, a kind of get out of jail free mechanism - I don't get it?

is asking of Islam a question about God that we can't answer either. All we know is that a righteous God is capable of acting in a way that offers to those who are his people a kind of get of our jail free mechanism. The way he does it, and beyond love and grace even the why he does it, is in your own words "unfathomable."

 

[Grace Seeker]

Salaam/Peace



But whoever repents after his wrongdoing and reforms, indeed, Allaah will turn to him in forgiveness. Indeed, Allaah is Forgiving and Merciful.[Quran 5:39]



The Prophet

, said: “A person who repents from the sins he has committed is like a person who has not committed a sin."

So, with repentance it is more than deeds that effect Allah's mercy. In fact, remembering the Hadith story you told in another thread...

A person killed 99 persons and asked a scholar : Will Allah pardon me ? Scholar answered : NO . Then the man said , if I am surely going to hell , let me kill one more ; then he killed the scholar .

Next he went to another one and asked the same question . That learned person , yes , Allah will forgive u if u repents sincerely . Try to change your life style and go to another city where u will find some good people . If u go there , u will be able to offer daily prayers .

The killer started his journey and on the way he died. He never offered any salat or apparently did not do any good deeds . but as he sincerely watned to be good and took the initiatives , Allah forgave his sins.

...it would seem, with regard to repentance, that deeds though important are not as important as intention, so genuine repentance is first and foremost measured by the heart which is bent back in the right direction.

Would you agree?

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/Peace

... remembering the Hadith story you told in another thread... ...

I read that story somewhere , don't remember now if it's a hadith. In the story , the man wanted to do some good deeds like start offering prayer but but he did not get a chance as he died. So , God forgave him as he repented sincerely.

True repentance include good works. Say I am a thief . I steal and say O Allah , forgive me and again I steal - it's not a sign of true repentance . I must stop stealing , that would be a proof that I truely repent .

If after repentance , one does not get time to do good deeds , God Willing s/he will be forgiven :statisfie

And God Knows Best.

 

[Grace Seeker]

True repentance include good works. Say I am a thief . I steal and say O Allah , forgive me and again I steal - it's not a sign of true repentance . I must stop stealing , that would be a proof that I truely repent .

If after repentance , one does not get time to do good deeds , God Willing s/he will be forgiven :statisfie

But I am assuming, I hope correctly, that good deeds, in and of themselves, just to make a show and without a genuine change in the heart would not be accepted.

For instance, I can imagine a thief getting caught and saying that they will quit stealing and make restitution, and they go and not only make restitution but also give all sorts of extra gifts to charity to "make up for" what they had done. But that is just their public face. What no one sees, is that they are no longer a theif, instead they've become swindlers, keep fraudulant books, and cheat in other less obvious wasy. In other words, they look good on the outside, but at the core they remain unrepentant and just as unsubmissive to the ways of Islam as before, though only Allah would be aware of it.

So, I am think that this would be evidence that good deeds without genuine repentance mean nothing, but the story you shared with me would be evidence of the value of genuine repentance even when there is no opportunity to follow that up with good deeds.

So, while both are important, I'm interpreting this to mean that the more important of the two is actually the offering of genuine repentance of the heart?

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/Peace

...So, while both are important, I'm interpreting this to mean that the more important of the two is actually the offering of genuine repentance of the heart?

Prophet pbuh said something like that : rewards depends on good intention .

Many people will ask God on the last day , in the world I did this and that , where are my rewards ? God will answer , you did those to please human being , to get publicity or to get a favour from others etc etc . U have already got what u wanted ; so there is no reward for u on this day.

God knows our hearts . So , make a good intention is very important . So , may be u are correct that genuine repentance is more important than one's good deeds . Specially if those were done by force and not from good intention and out of repentance.

 

[Hugo]

Yes, but it only makes it clear what it is that God does, not how he does it. Hence why I am saying that your original question: is asking of Islam a question about God that we can't answer either. All we know is that a righteous God is capable of acting in a way that offers to those who are his people a kind of get of our jail free mechanism. The way he does it, and beyond love and grace even the why he does it, is in your own words "unfathomable."

I don't quite follow, the mechanism is that Jesus takes the punishment that is due to us and in that way Gods sense oh holiness is satisfied. In that sense he redeems us, pays the price and sets us free and the reason he does it is out of love. If your question is exactly how the punishment was exacted then like you I have to accept that we don't know but we are assured of its eternal effects through faith.

But when we come to Islam there is no mechanism as far as I can see and what we have read in this thread is that it is linked to devotions and good deeds and Gods mercy but no way that I can see where a holy god exacts his justice because it seems to me we can never be in credit with God. If we can never be in credit then a God would have to put is holiness aside to make use free. But more than that if its about good deeds and devotions, things if you like where we can earn as it were points then there is no need for Islam since the rules are the same for all.

 

[Zafran]

I don't quite follow, the mechanism is that Jesus takes the punishment that is due to us and in that way Gods sense oh holiness is satisfied. In that sense he redeems us, pays the price and sets us free and the reason he does it is out of love. If your question is exactly how the punishment was exacted then like you I have to accept that we don't know but we are assured of its eternal effects through faith.

But when we come to Islam there is no mechanism as far as I can see and what we have read in this thread is that it is linked to devotions and good deeds and Gods mercy but no way that I can see where a holy god exacts his justice because it seems to me we can never be in credit with God. If we can never be in credit then a God would have to put is holiness aside to make use free. But more than that if its about good deeds and devotions, things if you like where we can earn as it were points then there is no need for Islam since the rules are the same for all.

How does God put his Holiness aside when he shows mercy to his servants? About Justice - That will take place on the Day of Judgement - some people will make it others wont - Simple as that - Good deeds on there own are not realy enough to take you to salvation. However the Good deeds will be rewarded and are a way That God will exert Justice depending on the intentions.

I could also say that God put his holiness aside when he decided to die on the cross according to christainty. He dies or kills himself for everyone else - what so holy or Just about that?

God pays the price for us........wait isnt that God showing mercy/grace?? rather then Justice in Christainty? So what you talking about? Both religions believe in mercy.

True mercy equals Justice IMO.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Hugo, whenever I push Muslims on what at first looks like a merit-based system of salvation, I find that they always end up clarifying that no one is able to put God in a debtor situation. And that people can never actually earn their salvation. So, it seems to me that both Islam and Christianity end up being grace-based. Indeed, Islam is so much so, that I think Muslim do themselves a disservice in talking about the importance of weighing their good deeds verses their sins. In the end, the results of those scales don't really appear to matter, for with the grace of God on your side he will chose to tip those scales as he wills it. And without the grace of God on your sides, all of one's good deeds still aren't enough.



As far as the mechanism you described relevant to Christian salvation I encourage you to read a little more widely. What you expressed is the "popular" view in vogue today, but it is not the only view, not even the only "Biblical" view, nor the one that has dominated most of Christian history.

 

[Zafran]

Hugo, whenever I push Muslims on what at first looks like a merit-based system of salvation, I find that they always end up clarifying that no one is able to put God in a debtor situation. And that people can never actually earn their salvation. So, it seems to me that both Islam and Christianity end up being grace-based. Indeed, Islam is so much so, that I think Muslim do themselves a disservice in talking about the importance of weighing their good deeds verses their sins. In the end, the results of those scales don't really appear to matter, for with the grace of God on your side he will chose to tip those scales as he wills it. And without the grace of God on your sides, all of one's good deeds still aren't enough.



As far as the mechanism you described relevant to Christian salvation I encourage you to read a little more widely. What you expressed is the "popular" view in vogue today, but it is not the only view, not even the only "Biblical" view, nor the one that has dominated most of Christian history.

Thank You Grace seeker you get the point. However the sins and good actions/deeds matter when people that have been oppressed ask for there rights from the oppressor on the last day - Thats where deeds come in. For example if someone has been wronged by a person then that person who has done wrong against that person will have to pay for his wrong action to the person he or she has wronged. unless that person forgives him.

So when muslims worry about there bad deeds/good deeds its because they will have to answer for them on the day of Judgement. So Muslims are always trying to counter the bad actions by a good action.

Ultimately however God's salvation/graden/paradise is only achieved through God's grace - we cant buy it - that would be arrogant.

Here is a very good article that explains it better.

http://seekersguidance.org/ans-blog...salvation-putting-our-works-into-perspective/

hope that helps.

peace

 

[Hugo]

How does God put his Holiness aside when he shows mercy to his servants? About Justice - That will take place on the Day of Judgement - some people will make it others wont - Simple as that - Good deeds on there own are not realy enough to take you to salvation. However the Good deeds will be rewarded and are a way That God will exert Justice depending on the intentions.

I follow you up to a point but from what you have written I cannot see the purpose of the day of judgement. You say good deeds are not enough and I agree with you but I guess you are then saying in fact they are enough because they get rewarded especially if the intention was 'right'. Indeed you imply that intentions are enough so salvation if I can call it that are really in our hands not Gods.

By implication faith is unimportant since it is not even in the equation according to you so its pointless being a Muslim or anything else, all that is important is to do good deeds with good intentions. I to be honest I have a lot of trouble with what you say. If someone does a good deed to me, helps me when I am in need I cannot see how it become apparently valueless in God's sight because his or her intentions were not equally good, right?

I could also say that God put his holiness aside when he decided to die on the cross according to christainty. He dies or kills himself for everyone else - what so holy or Just about that? God pays the price for us........wait isnt that God showing mercy/grace?? rather then Justice in Christainty? So what you talking about? Both religions believe in mercy.

True mercy equals Justice IMO.

I think I see your difficulty but presumably every Martyr is in this category also as they could have avoided death. Paying the price by this one act of righteousness by Jesus is one part of the bargain and bestowing righteousness on us because of it is the act of grace exercised through faith. So justice is not overlooked here it is implicit in the whole thing, it is justice that made it necessary to go this far.

 

[Hugo]

As far as the mechanism you described relevant to Christian salvation I encourage you to read a little more widely. What you expressed is the "popular" view in vogue today, but it is not the only view, not even the only "Biblical" view, nor the one that has dominated most of Christian history.

Well this is perhaps not the place to discuss it but the mechanism I described is stated in Romans in great detail. So if what I describe is popular it was popular 2,000 years ago. Still be interested to hear these other views Biblical and historical that you speak of. I have read very widely on the subject and of course I have seen other views but and one would hardly expect otherwise on any subject at all but they cannot all be right can they?

 

[Zafran]

I follow you up to a point but from what you have written I cannot see the purpose of the day of judgement. You say good deeds are not enough and I agree with you but I guess you are then saying in fact they are enough because they get rewarded especially if the intention was 'right'. Indeed you imply that intentions are enough so salvation if I can call it that are really in our hands not Gods.

By implication faith is unimportant since it is not even in the equation according to you so its pointless being a Muslim or anything else, all that is important is to do good deeds with good intentions. I to be honest I have a lot of trouble with what you say. If someone does a good deed to me, helps me when I am in need I cannot see how it become apparently valueless in God's sight because his or her intentions were not equally good, right?



I think I see your difficulty but presumably every Martyr is in this category also as they could have avoided death. Paying the price by this one act of righteousness by Jesus is one part of the bargain and bestowing righteousness on us because of it is the act of grace exercised through faith. So justice is not overlooked here it is implicit in the whole thing, it is justice that made it necessary to go this far.

Firstly I didnt say faith isnt needed - thats why I said that actions matter on intentions/belief.- The last day is important in solving issues between people and there crimes against God and people - thats where the deeds come in.

Note - Good deed is only seen as a good deed if it has the right intentions (belief in God etc).

so you see faith/good deeds are not two different things they are both to get togather.

Now can I say that deeds with intentions/belief will only lead me to salvation - no - even then its up to God's Grace and mercy.

Muslims never say we've done enough or that we have the right intentions/belief so we're going to heaven - intead the final Judgement goes to God.

A martyr has nothing to do with the so called suicide of Jesus. God has to die so that the sinners can go to heaven -. Its not just far from it. How can a sinnless man die for the sins of sinners? Its pure mercy according to christainty but a purely an unjust act unless Mercy is Justice.

 

[Hugo]

Firstly I didnt say faith isnt needed - thats why I said that actions matter on intentions/belief.- The last day is important in solving issues between people and there crimes against God and people - thats where the deeds come in. Note - Good deed is only seen as a good deed if it has the right intentions (belief in God etc).

so you see faith/good deeds are not two different things they are both to get togather. Now can I say that deeds with intentions/belief will only lead me to salvation - no - even then its up to God's Grace and mercy. Muslims never say we've done enough or that we have the right intentions/belief so we're going to heaven - intead the final Judgement goes to God.

A martyr has nothing to do with the so called suicide of Jesus. God has to die so that the sinners can go to heaven -. Its not just far from it. How can a sinnless man die for the sins of sinners? Its pure mercy according to christainty but a purely an unjust act unless Mercy is Justice.

I see your logic and and its appeal but it is flawed, you might like to consider what Jesus said:

Matthew 21:25-34 (NIV) The Parable of the Two Sons
28 "What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, 'Son, go and work today in the vineyard.' 29" 'I will not,' he answered, but later he changed his mind and went. 30. "Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, 'I will, sir,' but he did not go. 31. "Which of the two did what his father wanted?" "The first," they answered.

Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. 32. For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did.

One might argue that the the one who changed his mind eventually had the right intention but might have done it out of duty not desire for good. So the good act is still good surely? Alternatively, one might see the one who changed his mind as confessing his wrong doing and following it through with repentance and action to show it was real.

The other point here that you seem to be missing is that I can see God judging our good deeds but surely he must also judge our bad ones, in other words he judges all our actions. But is it not startling that Jesus says the worst of society will get into heaven first, not because of their good deeds but because they believed in a way of righteousness enabled by faith demonstrated by repentance.

Finally, if I take your point about Jesus then by extension it means that it is always unjust to take another persons place. So if I dive into a river to save someone, even someone who society regards as worthless, risking my life in the process that according to you is unjust. Indeed any selfless act is by the same token unjust.

Here we are back were we started by your own argument, if God forgives a sinner it is unjust, the sinner rightly should be punished. No one would regard it as just to let the guilty go free. Ipso facto according to you God would be unjust to show mercy.

 

[Grace Seeker]

I can't object to the above discussion, because after all I did more than just ask questions about Islam, but consciously entered into a wider discussion with Hugo. However, if I can, I do want to pull it back in again now and return the focus of the thread more to asking questions to through which we non-Muslims seek to better understand Islam (not prove our view superior) through listening.

I'm curious how our Muslim brothers and sisters might respond to the concept of a personal God? I don't mean that Allah is a person; I know that would surely be shirk in your eyes, on par with making an idol. But I mean does faith have a relational nature to it (i.e. is faith synonymous with trust), or is belief only about knowledge?

 

[aadil77]

I'm curious how our Muslim brothers and sisters might respond to the concept of a personal God? I don't mean that Allah is a person; I know that would surely be shirk in your eyes, on par with making an idol. But I mean does faith have a relational nature to it (i.e. is faith synonymous with trust), or is belief only about knowledge?

No belief is not only about knowledge, you have to feel the truth in your beliefs from your heart as well, personally I feel total contentment and certainty in my beliefs from within. I don't have to trust and just hope for the best that my beliefs are true, I KNOW they're true and in my heart I'm fully satisfied with them. I've never had any doubts about them and little things on a day to day basis reaffirm my beliefs, make my faith stronger, experiences also.

You can ask any practising muslim and they'll say the same

 

[Zafran]

I see your logic and and its appeal but it is flawed, you might like to consider what Jesus said:

Matthew 21:25-34 (NIV) The Parable of the Two Sons
28 "What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, 'Son, go and work today in the vineyard.' 29" 'I will not,' he answered, but later he changed his mind and went. 30. "Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, 'I will, sir,' but he did not go. 31. "Which of the two did what his father wanted?" "The first," they answered.

Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. 32. For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did.

One might argue that the the one who changed his mind eventually had the right intention but might have done it out of duty not desire for good. So the good act is still good surely? Alternatively, one might see the one who changed his mind as confessing his wrong doing and following it through with repentance and action to show it was real.

The other point here that you seem to be missing is that I can see God judging our good deeds but surely he must also judge our bad ones, in other words he judges all our actions. But is it not startling that Jesus says the worst of society will get into heaven first, not because of their good deeds but because they believed in a way of righteousness enabled by faith demonstrated by repentance.

Finally, if I take your point about Jesus then by extension it means that it is always unjust to take another persons place. So if I dive into a river to save someone, even someone who society regards as worthless, risking my life in the process that according to you is unjust. Indeed any selfless act is by the same token unjust.

Here we are back were we started by your own argument, if God forgives a sinner it is unjust, the sinner rightly should be punished. No one would regard it as just to let the guilty go free. Ipso facto according to you God would be unjust to show mercy.

Not realy God's decision whatever it will be is Just be it merciful or wrath.

Intention for God is rewarded - duty? - duty for what? It depends where that duty comes from.

Jesus commiting suicide isnt like you saving someone in the river - your human - Jesus in christian eyes is God - no need to dive and risk his life - Jesus never risked his life as he was God on the cross according to christainty -

so your human examples doesnt actually work as we're talking about a specific act....by God in your eyes - as when we talk about "sacrifice of Jesus" we're at the same time talking about God - the one who dies, but cant die, but did to save everyone - confusing tell me about.

Last note

The other point here that you seem to be missing is that I can see God judging our good deeds but surely he must also judge our bad ones, in other words he judges all our actions. But is it not startling that Jesus says the worst of society will get into heaven first, not because of their good deeds but because they believed in a way of righteousness enabled by faith demonstrated by repentance.

so deeds dont matter?

Here we are back were we started by your own argument, if God forgives a sinner it is unjust, the sinner rightly should be punished. No one would regard it as just to let the guilty go free. Ipso facto according to you God would be unjust to show mercy

so would the chirstian version be - Guilty do go free in christainty - after God (who cannot die) dies. - and thats your argument not mine - as any decision God makes will be Just according to me (Islamically).

 

[Justufy]

Not realy God's decision whatever it will be is Just be it merciful or wrath.

Intention for God is rewarded - duty? - duty for what? It depends where that duty comes from.

Jesus commiting suicide isnt like you saving someone in the river - your human - Jesus in christian eyes is God - no need to dive and risk his life - Jesus never risked his life as he was God on the cross according to christainty -

so your human examples doesnt actually work as we're talking about a specific act....by God in your eyes - as when we talk about "sacrifice of Jesus" we're at the same time talking about God - the one who dies, but cant die, but did to save everyone - confusing tell me about.

Last note



so deeds dont matter?



so would the chirstian version be - Guilty do go free in christainty - after God (who cannot die) dies. - and thats your argument not mine - as any decision God makes will be Just according to me (Islamically).

I mostly agree but what do you mean by '' deeds don't matter'' ? please explain what deeds you are talking about here.

 

[Zafran]

I mostly agree but what do you mean by '' deeds don't matter'' ? please explain what deeds you are talking about here.

I was refering to this what Hugo wrote

The other point here that you seem to be missing is that I can see God judging our good deeds but surely he must also judge our bad ones, in other words he judges all our actions. But is it not startling that Jesus says the worst of society will get into heaven first, not because of their good deeds but because they believed in a way of righteousness enabled by faith demonstrated by repentance.

so deeds dont matter to go to heaven? at all in christainty. So whats there point in christainty?