Things in Islam I am curious about...

[revert2007]

well this is how Allah test us suba hana Allah

if u learn to give up certain things for the sake of Allah,in sha Allah ,Allah will compensate what you gave up.

 

[Grace Seeker]

The Christians of the Quran like Ahel al-kahf for instance, aren't the paganist Christians of today,

Does this mean that when the Qur'an refers to the "People of the Book" that it is not referencing all Christians, but only a certain subset of Christians that are presumably amenable to the teachings of the Qur'an?

I thought, that at least for the most part, the Christians of Muhammad's (pubh) day were every bit as pagan as Christians are today. All the major beliefs with regard to the divinity of Jesus, God existing in Trinity, Jesus atoning death on the cross and bodily resurrection from the grave, even our supposedly corrupted Bible were well established as standard aspects of Christianity long before the 7th century.

 

[Supreme]

I agree. How are the Christians in 7th century Arabia different from those of today Gossamer? Heck, the Christians of Muhammed's time even had statues of Mary and Jesus in the Kaaba. I mean, call me old fashioned, but I thinkg that's rather a 'pagan' practise, is it not Gossamer?

 

[Uthman]

Greetings Supreme,

Heck, the Christians of Muhammed's time even had statues of Mary and Jesus in the Kaaba.

What's your source for that? ^o)

 

[Supreme]

Greetings Supreme, What's your source for that? ^o)

...does wikipedia count?

At the time of Muhammad (P.B.U.H) (CE 570–632), his tribe the Quraysh was in charge of the Kaaba, which was at that time a shrine containing hundreds of idols representing Arabian tribal gods and other religious figures, including Jesus and Mary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaaba

I'm not a big fan of using Wikipedia as a source, I assure you I have read it more than once on other sources, however I cannot think of them right now, and wikipedia is the obvious one. But my point still stands: the Christians of Arabia in the 7th century were just as 'pagan' (read as 'un Islamic') as the Christians of today, if not more so. Arab Christians today are evidence of this, and they practise their faith exactly the same as they did in Muhammed's time: there has been no doctrine change, no major creed, no theology turn around since the 7th century, and seeing as someone seems to think there is for some curious reason is a mystery.

 

[Ali_008]

It seems some posts have gotten deleted so I'll repeat mine.

The pagans and the Jews & Christians aren't the same. In the Qur'an and the Ahadeeth, they are referred separately. The pagans as Mushrikeen (Polytheists) and the Jews & Christians as Ahl-e-kitaab (People of the Book)

 

[Grace Seeker]

For this question, I will concede a few stipulations in the hopes that doing so will eliminate irrelvenat tangent discussions:
I will concede that Islam understands babies to be born absent any sin.
I will concede that Islam understands all persons to be born followers of Islam.
I will concede that Islam understands that no prophet of Islam ever committed serious sin and that at best they made human mistakes, but not what might be termed by some to be mortal sins. (Not sure how that would actually be termed in Islam, but that is not the focus of the following question.)

With those stipulations, and as I would like to keep the focus of this question on ordinary folk and the more common shared human experience, I would therefore like to exclude the prophets and infants from the following question.

(Other than those excluded above) I understand that Islam recognizes that all persons do in fact commit sins. Some persons commit more and more heinous sins than others, but all sin.

I understand that Islam believes that one sins and good deeds are weighed in a balance with merit being granted by Allah based on that balance. Should the weighting be sufficient, that balance combined with Allah's grace can effect one's salvation.

My question has to do not with the means of salvation, but the understanding of who are those that are saved? Are they "sinners" or are they "the righteous"?


Here is some background thought on that question:
If all have sinned does the effect of one's good deeds in essence cancel those sins, so that by one's own actions one can atone for sinful acts that one has done, and thus one in effect earns Allah's favor and is admitted to Janah on the grounds of having proved one's self to be a righteous person?
OR
If all have sinned does this mean that even if one has a larger balance of good deeds than sins, that one must still understand that one can only present one's self before Allah as a sinner beseeching Allah's mercy and grace so that one might still be admitted to Janah primarily because of Allah's compassion for those who in the balance did seek to serve Allah and (perhaps imperfectly) submit themselves to him, but one's admission to Janah is ultimately understood to be as nothing more than a sinner who have been a recipient of Allah's mercy?

 

[aadil77]

This isn't going to answer you question but lets make it clear that if a muslim has a (lets call it: ) balance defecit in sins on the day of judgment then he'll have to face the severe punishment for those sins in hell but not eternally. But the point is in islam to not have that defecit, Allah is Most Merciful and if we try our best to remain on this righteous path, basically do good avoid bad and always ask for forgiveness for any bad, then we should know that Allah can expiate our sins in this world instead of the next. By Allah's mercy we can have our sins removed in this world through trials, repentance, good deeds and punishment.

 

[Hugo]

This isn't going to answer you question but lets make it clear that if a muslim has a (lets call it balance defecit in sins on the day of judgment then he'll have to face the severe punishment for those sins in hell but not eternally. But the point is in islam to not have that defecit, Allah is Most Merciful and if we try our best to remain on this righteous path, basically do good avoid bad and always ask for forgiveness for any bad, then we should know that Allah can expiate our sins in this world instead of the next. By Allah's mercy we can have our sins removed in this world through trials, repentance and punishment.

I have a few questions and logical difficulties with your answer:

1. If this is the case then it applies to every one whether they are Muslim or not so on that score there is no advantage at all in being Muslim - I can be just as good or bad without being Muslim.

2. There seems no assurance here as there is no way as far as I can see of keeping a record, it looks like one has to do your best and hope for the best?

3. I am not sure how a holy God can just balance out sin like this? For example, if I kill someone then it will be no defences in law that I have a string of good deeds, even a life time of good deeds to my account. So if it is not true here why would it be true in the hereafter?

4. I feel uncomfortable with your answer as it looks like on the day of judgement that I can sort of demand God forgive me because I have built up the necessary credit, God would be in my debt and that just sounds all wrong.

 

[Ali_008]

For this question, I will concede a few stipulations in the hopes that doing so will eliminate irrelvenat tangent discussions:
I will concede that Islam understands babies to be born absent any sin.
I will concede that Islam understands all persons to be born followers of Islam.
I will concede that Islam understands that no prophet of Islam ever committed serious sin and that at best they made human mistakes, but not what might be termed by some to be mortal sins. (Not sure how that would actually be termed in Islam, but that is not the focus of the following question.)

With those stipulations, and as I would like to keep the focus of this question on ordinary folk and the more common shared human experience, I would therefore like to exclude the prophets and infants from the following question.

(Other than those excluded above) I understand that Islam recognizes that all persons do in fact commit sins. Some persons commit more and more heinous sins than others, but all sin.

I understand that Islam believes that one sins and good deeds are weighed in a balance with merit being granted by Allah based on that balance. Should the weighting be sufficient, that balance combined with Allah's grace can effect one's salvation.

My question has to do not with the means of salvation, but the understanding of who are those that are saved? Are they "sinners" or are they "the righteous"?


Here is some background thought on that question:
If all have sinned does the effect of one's good deeds in essence cancel those sins, so that by one's own actions one can atone for sinful acts that one has done, and thus one in effect earns Allah's favor and is admitted to Janah on the grounds of having proved one's self to be a righteous person?
OR
If all have sinned does this mean that even if one has a larger balance of good deeds than sins, that one must still understand that one can only present one's self before Allah as a sinner beseeching Allah's mercy and grace so that one might still be admitted to Janah primarily because of Allah's compassion for those who in the balance did seek to serve Allah and (perhaps imperfectly) submit themselves to him, but one's admission to Janah is ultimately understood to be as nothing more than a sinner who have been a recipient of Allah's mercy?

I can't get the source but there is this Hadeeth according to which the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said to his companions, "none of you can enter Jannah unless Allah's mercy is wrapped around you", the companions asked "not even you, O Rasoolullah?" He replied, "Not even me."

I hope this answers your question. No matter what amount of good deeds you do, they don't earn you a ticket to Jannah. Jannah is such a premium, high-priced luxury that even a lifetime of righteousness can't get you in (without Allah's mercy). It doesn't mean that one needs to stop doing good deeds because ultimately it'll be Allah's mercy and not solely that person's deeds that'll give him Jannah. No. It only gives you a picture of the worth of Jannah. To get in there, you need to do a lot more but Allah being the Most-Merciful readily gives it to His servant out of His infinite grace and mercy for whatever number of good deeds he comes up with.

Its like selling a Buggati Veyron (World's most expensive car) at the price of a Beetle. Wouldn't such a retailer be called generous?

 

[Grace Seeker]

Aadil and Ali, I appreciate your responses, but I think I need to figure out a way to better state my question. For I really wasn't asking so much about entry into Janah as Islam's view with regard to the supplicant who seeks admission to Janah. Nevertheless, your responses have continued to edified me on related issues and I value them for that.

I guess what I am wondering is whether or not a person that has both sins and good deeds, but more good deeds than sins (and no sins of shirk), is by virtue of his/her righteous deeds to be considered a righteous person who has earned Allah's mercy by his/her own merit?
OR
Whether that same person is by virtue of his/her sins to be considered a sinner needing and totally dependent on Allah's mercy?


Or, another way of (I hope) asking the same question: Can a sinner make him/herself a righteous person by the accummulation of good deeds, or does s/he still remain a sinner in Allah's eyes at the time of his/her death by virtue of whatever sins s/he may have done while alive?

 

[Grace Seeker]

3. I am not sure how a holy God can just balance out sin like this?

I would argue that this is exactly what happens when God declares those who are in Christ justified, even though we know that they are in fact guilty of sin. He declares what is not diakosis to be diakosis and by virtue of that acquital it is in fact righteous.

 

[Hugo]

I hope this answers your question. No matter what amount of good deeds you do, they don't earn you a ticket to Jannah. Jannah is such a premium, high-priced luxury that even a lifetime of righteousness can't get you in (without Allah's mercy). It doesn't mean that one needs to stop doing good deeds because ultimately it'll be Allah's mercy and not solely that person's deeds that'll give him Jannah. No. It only gives you a picture of the worth of Jannah. To get in there, you need to do a lot more but Allah being the Most-Merciful readily gives it to His servant out of His infinite grace and mercy for whatever number of good deeds he comes up with.

Its like selling a Buggati Veyron (World's most expensive car) at the price of a Beetle. Wouldn't such a retailer be called generous?

I cannot follow this, first you say no amount of good deeds will get you in. Then you say you have to do a lot more, a lot more of what, how can we have more than "no amount of". Then all that seems of no importance at all because God is merciful and will give it you anyway whatever number of good deeds you do? To me this sounds totally illogical unless God is of a whimsical character so he forgives one but not another?

 

[Hugo]

I would argue that this is exactly what happens when God declares those who are in Christ justified, even though we know that they are in fact guilty of sin. He declares what is not diakosis to be diakosis and by virtue of that acquital it is in fact righteous.

I think if you read my post I was speaking of our own good works balancing out sin and that cannot be. I think you are underestimating what God has done in Christ.

Romans 1:16-17
16. I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 17. For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith. " (Habakkuk 2:4)

God gives us his righteousness through faith and that is simply more than mere aquittal. The law courts – Justification (v24) does not mean to ‘make’ someone justified but rather to ‘treat’, to ‘reckon’, to ‘account’ that someone is justified. If an innocent person comes before a judge, then to treat the person as innocent is the same as acquittal. But the point Paul is making is that even though we are utterly guilty, God in His amazing mercy, treats us, reckons us, accounts us as if we were innocent.

 

[جوري]

I cannot follow this, first you say no amount of good deeds will get you in. Then you say you have to do a lot more, a lot more of what, how can we have more than "no amount of". Then all that seems of no importance at all because God is merciful and will give it you anyway whatever number of good deeds you do? To me this sounds totally illogical unless God is of a whimsical character so he forgives one but not another?

The Christian dictum “We have no deeds” is held up nowadays by many preachers as a main difference between Christianity and Islam. According to their portrayal, Islam does not strongly consider the mercy of God and the human need for forgiveness. Evidently, we Muslims—according to them—think we will “earn our way to Heaven” without God? Perhaps this is part of their general attempt to paint Islam as an unfeeling, merciless, godless religion in the minds of their congregations. That scheme does not lend any virtue to the Christian-Muslim interfaith dialogue. Socially, it sabotages mutual understanding. And in reality, this is not a truthful or accurate conveyance of Islamic doctrine concerning the issue of human deeds.

While it is true that Christians hypothetically rely in full on another person’s deeds, or what they think Jesus died for centuries past, saying “we have no deeds” is certainly not consistent with other Church rhetoric concerning “doing God’s work”. Furthermore, they say “we have no deeds”, but evidently believe that others do have deeds (for which they go to Hell). Or do they believe that God arbitrarily casts those souls into the Fire? I do not know. But I do not wish to qualm here about why God would prefer blood over good deeds—for I as a Muslim certainly do not believe that God needs blood in order to forgive.

Presently, I wish simply to address one shared belief about good deeds. Christians and Muslims are not as different as some Christians imagine in regard to our view of human deeds.

Over and over again, the Qur’an adjures mankind to work righteousness, avoid vice, and stand up to the challenge of living an upright existence on earth. Muslims believe that angels escort them on the right and left, scribing their every deed. Good deeds are contained in the book on the right. Bad deeds are listed on the left—if we do not repent of them or meet forgiveness by some means. Between the scales of these deeds on the Day of Judgment, our eternity hangs in the balance: Heaven or Hell.

Good deeds, however, do not in and of themselves enter a person into Paradise. Rather, it is the mercy of God that tilts any person’s scale toward Paradise! Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) stated, “Do good deeds properly, sincerely, and moderately. And know that your deeds will not make you enter Paradise.” He was then asked, “Even you, O Messenger of God?” He replied, “Even me, unless God’s mercy is cast on me,” (Sahih Muslim, 1927).

Only through God’s mercy, according to Islamic texts, can any person enter Paradise. Prophet or saint, devil or renegade, every person’s soul is at the mercy of its Lord. We all err, and we all fall short of perfect worship, to varying degrees. Most of us, if we were taken to task for our evil deeds, would find no refuge in the meager good deeds we send forth.

Furthermore, the good deeds and pure worship that we commit for God’s sake are only performed by His will and through His mercy. For example, I could not donate to a charitable cause if God had not bestowed wealth upon my hand. You could not be kind and loving toward your children if God had not placed tenderness in your heart. A soldier could not gallantly defend the lives of his countrymen if God had not granted him health and strength. As a Muslim poet once wrote,

The good in my life and religion
Is through Your mercy, by Your permission.
You do not take. You only bestow.
Only through what You make does what You make grow.

In addition, our good deeds are rewarded beyond their actual merit. I might say a good word, and that word would turn into my ticket to Paradise, not because it was equal in effort to the blessings of Paradise but because God rewarded it with His infinite generosity. Heaven exists because God is Most Merciful. And no one’s good deeds can equal it.

However, what you do or how you live now is not completely irrelevant to your fate hereafter. In that case, what is the point of existing at all? More in point, what is the point of morality? Why would God order His commandments upon mankind, and then free them of all accountability?

No, in Islam, your actions count, and there is accountability in this world and in the hereafter. However, your actions will never reach the merit of Paradise. That is only God’s mercy and bounty upon His slaves. The reward is so far greater than the deed, you see. We do not enter Hell or Heaven arbitrarily. We act according to a certain inner character, down one path or the other. We will each individually face the consequences of our deeds, our personal cumulative life journey, and the inner dimensions of our heart and character, on a Day when no one will escape the judgment of God.

Islam conveys to its followers a well-defined sense of accountability. It also, however, couples a sense of God’s mercy with His justice. Surah Amma, chapter 78 of the Qur’an, juxtaposes God’s justice toward inhabitants of Hell with His mercy toward inhabitants of Paradise. After describing punishments allotted to denizens of hellfire, God says, “Recompense proportioned,” (Qur’an, 78:26) meaning their punishment was equivalent to their evil deeds. This demonstrates God’s Justness. Similarly, verse 7 of Surah Tahreem, chapter 56, rehearses the statement addressing people of Hell on the Day of Judgment, saying, “O you who disbelieved! Make no excuse for yourselves this day. You are only being paid for what you used to do.” The Qur’an, in chapter 78, goes on to detail the attitude that led them into Hell, saying, “Indeed, they looked not for a reckoning,” meaning they had no sense of accountability or did not believe in a Judgment Day.

Following the description of people of Hell, God describes people of Heaven in chapter 78. Instead of characterizing their rewards and pleasures as “proportioned”, however, the people of heaven enjoy what the Qur’an calls, “Requital from thy Lord—a gift in payment,” (Qur’an, 78:36). Their recompense is not equal to their deeds; rather their rewards far outweigh their good deeds in goodness, while disregarding or overlooking their bad deeds. As the Qur’an states in another chapter, “That God may reward them with the best of what they did, and increase reward for them of His bounty,” (Qur’an, 24:38), their reward is hinged upon God’s generosity. His bounty, not ours. A similar sentiment is expressed in Surah Ankibut, chapter 29, which states, “And whosoever striveth, striveth only for himself, for lo! God is altogether independent[1] of creatures. And as for those who believe and do good works, We shall remit from them their evil deeds and shall repay for the best of what they used to do,” (Qur’an, 29:6-7).

Believing in a Higher Authority Who sees and knows all is not enough if we do not couple it with a belief that our deeds have consequences. If we do not believe in personal accountability, then we cannot behave morally. Likewise, however, believing in actions alone with no sense of performing them for God’s pleasure will nullify all the good deeds a person committed. The Qur’an says, “His are the keys of the heavens and the earth, and they who disbelieve the revelations of God—such are they who are the losers…And verily it hath been revealed unto you as unto those before you: If you ascribe partners to God, your work will fail and you indeed will be among the losers. Nay! But God must you serve, and be among the thankful!” (Qur’an, 39:63-66) Belief itself is an action, and it is the weightiest of all deeds.

In many ways, a logical person can plainly argue that this makes very good sense, both in terms of internal consistency and in terms of the way it plays out in a person’s actions and sense of accountability. Your fate in the hereafter does depend directly on what you do in this life; however, it depends a great deal more upon God’s attributes, His justice and His mercy in particular. He created those scales with which He will weigh your deeds. And they, the scales, exist in a balance that demonstrates His mercy.

Faith in God and hope in His mercy should inspire us to live a righteous life. Dreaming of Paradise should invigorate our efforts to reach that place, where God’s face is finally met, and God’s love is everlasting and all-encompassing. However, if we become distracted by the temptations of temporal, fleeting pleasures, some that are ultimately harmful to ourselves or others, we should not feel that God’s mercy is assured and unconditional. It is not a done deal. We have to feel accountable and remorseful in the wake of ill decision-making. We were originally created, and we live and exist now, not simply to be ushered into Paradise at some later point in time, but to work, to worship, to take that journey—and to realize God’s incredible mercy upon us in this world and especially in the hereafter.


Subhaka Allahuma wa behamdik. Ash’hadu an-laa ilaha illa Annt. Astaghfiruka wa atubu ilayk.



Glory to You, O Allah, and praise to You. I testify that there is no God but You. I seek Your forgiveness and I repent unto You.



Notes:


[1] This part of the verse, “God is altogether independent of (His) creatures,” should not be misconstrued to mean He does not care for them. Many agnostics these days believe that God does not interact with us, but that is far from the Islamic view of God. God is attentive, responsive, watchful, and He sustains His creatures and the creation in general. This verse is talking about how God does not need anyone else, though they need Him. He is independent, and our good deeds do not in any way sustain Him. We are working for our own benefit, out of love for Him and hope in His great reward.

http://english.islammessage.com/articledetails.aspx?articleId=878

 

[Grace Seeker]

I think if you read my post I was speaking of our own good works balancing out sin and that cannot be.

Yes, I know that in context you were speaking of human good works balancing sins, but the question you actually posed was specific with regard to whether or not God could balance sin. I think that from a Christian perspective, the answer to that particular question has to be a definitive YES, for that is exactly what we claim Jesus did do, cancel out (by taking on himself) all of the sin of the entire world.

I don't think we want to go into all the various nuances of that understanding from Augustine to Wright, it still boils down to answering your question with regard to Islam by saying it is true within Christianity.

 

[Hugo]

Over and over again, the Qur’an adjures mankind to work righteousness, avoid vice, and stand up to the challenge of living an upright existence on earth. Bad deeds are listed on the left—if we do not repent of them or meet forgiveness by some means. Between the scales of these deeds on the Day of Judgment, our eternity hangs in the balance: Heaven or Hell.

Good deeds, however, do not in and of themselves enter a person into Paradise. Rather, it is the mercy of God that tilts any person’s scale toward Paradise!

Only through God’s mercy, according to Islamic texts, can any person enter Paradise. Prophet or saint, devil or renegade, every person’s soul is at the mercy of its Lord. We all err, and we all fall short of perfect worship, to varying degrees.

In addition, our good deeds are rewarded beyond their actual merit. I might say a good word, and that word would turn into my ticket to Paradise, not because it was equal in effort to the blessings of Paradise but because God rewarded it with His infinite generosity.

No, in Islam, your actions count, and there is accountability in this world and in the hereafter. However, your actions will never reach the merit of Paradise. That is only God’s mercy and bounty upon His slaves.

I don't think there would be any disagreement about leading a life that is filled with thankfulness to God and works itself out in good deeds. If nothing else those things are testimony that God has done something in our lives.

What I have trouble with in what you said is that you seem to be making God schizophrenic. First our eternity hangs in a balance and God uses some kind of good deed scales so that good deeds sort of cancel out bad ones. Then we have a God who is merciful and rewards us above actual merit so tilts the scales in our favour and this applies whether we are "Prophet or saint, devil or renegade" and our merit however will never be enough?

I don't see any consistency or logic here and no assurance either. God's holiness seem to be set aside and we are down to what looks like doing our best and hoping God will reward that above our expectation. Again in all this I see no value whatever in being a Muslim since it is perfectly possible that I could lead a fairly blameless life and stack the cards in my favour.

Again I come back to my original point that if I murdered someone then no amount of good deeds previous to that would allow me to go free from that act - so why is it that a righteous God can act in that way, a kind of get out of jail free mechanism - I don't get it?

 

[Grace Seeker]

Again I come back to my original point that if I murdered someone then no amount of good deeds previous to that would allow me to go free from that act - so why is it that a righteous God can act in that way, a kind of get out of jail free mechanism - I don't get it?

Hugo, I have to admit I don't undertand your question. The way I hear Skye responding, she is expressing an attitude with regard to grace that very much is in the same pattern as we have in Christianity. Yes, I still see works righteousness behind it and not the cross of Christ, but that is to be expected given our contrasting views with regard to the cross. But on just the aspect of God's provision for being gracious, his willingness and ability to do so, I don't see any significant differences.

Which, Skye, also makes me wonder why you have so objected to the Christian understanding of grace in the past. And that history leaves me wondering if maybe I am not seeing something in your post that Hugo correctly is? But as I best understand your last several posts, there isn't that much different between the Islamic view of Allah granting of undeserved grace toward his servants who have tried to serve him, and God's granting of grace to those who have attached themselves to him in Jesus Christ. In both cases, works of righteousness are still expected, but in neither case can they be counted on to actually secure one's salvation. Rather, they are offerings of our lives to God/Allah our of love and obedience and a way of giving him the honor that he is due. In the end, it seems that we both view good works as, to borrow a phrase from Paul, "living sacrifices" of praise to God/Allah for who he is. And for those who believe in Christ/Allah, they have merit, but none if you do not. Nonetheless, even though they have merit, they are not sufficient to ensure one's salvation, only the grace of God/Allah can accomplish that.

Hugo, if you were objecting to the manner in which our good deeds have merit and to what end they are counted as meritorious, I could understand that for in Christianity good deeds merit eternal rewards, but not salvation itself -- though we do have to remind ourselves that Jesus himself implies that the absence of appropriate works could result in a final judgment being rendered against us. However, that isn't the question I heard you asking. Maybe you meant for it to be?


(BTW, before someone asks, I chose to write "God/Allah" not to draw a distinction between them, but as a way to indicate that I was speaking of two different theological constructs -- Christianity/Islam -- that I see as sharing some commonalities.)

 

[جوري]

I don't think there would be any disagreement about leading a life that is filled with thankfulness to God and works itself out in good deeds. If nothing else those things are testimony that God has done something in our lives.

What I have trouble with in what you said is that you seem to be making God schizophrenic. First our eternity hangs in a balance and God uses some kind of good deed scales so that good deeds sort of cancel out bad ones. Then we have a God who is merciful and rewards us above actual merit so tilts the scales in our favour and this applies whether we are "Prophet or saint, devil or renegade" and our merit however will never be enough?

I don't see any consistency or logic here and no assurance either. God's holiness seem to be set aside and we are down to what looks like doing our best and hoping God will reward that above our expectation. Again in all this I see no value whatever in being a Muslim since it is perfectly possible that I could lead a fairly blameless life and stack the cards in my favour.

Again I come back to my original point that if I murdered someone then no amount of good deeds previous to that would allow me to go free from that act - so why is it that a righteous God can act in that way, a kind of get out of jail free mechanism - I don't get it?

I think the schizophrenia is a perfect descriptions of a god who has an identity crisis, divides himself into three portions, each one of them indecisive, demands something different, inept at withholding the commandments and then demands blood from a portion of himself forsaken as an atonement of sin.
Perhaps the concept of logic is skewed in the christian world but I really have no understanding nor want to acquiesce to your concept of 'Logic'
doing good should be the nature of man.. all the good that God asks us to do isn't merely for the good of the hereafter but a guideline for this life. If an after life didn't exist all together then the pillars of Islam would suffice to lead man into a perfectly balanced life in the here and now!


What is illogical is to bang your way through life and expect to enter some pearly gates because your god ate your sins for you. How does Christianity sort between 'mother Theresa' and Anna Nicole smith? Does it seem fair? why do good at all?

Which, Skye, also makes me wonder why you have so objected to the Christian understanding of grace in the past. )

I think my objections are well covered in the essay. I don't understand nor subscribe to the concept of god's blood, his son or his hovering spirit.
We do good and count on God's mercy not simply take it for granted.. not screw around, steal, cheat, erect idols and then hope for God's mercy...
Think of it as an exam which Christians are very ill prepared for from all sides.

all the best

 

[Hugo]

Hugo, I have to admit I don't undertand your question. The way I hear Skye responding, she is expressing an attitude with regard to grace that very much is in the same pattern as we have in Christianity. Yes, I still see works righteousness behind it and not the cross of Christ, but that is to be expected given our contrasting views with regard to the cross. But on just the aspect of God's provision for being gracious, his willingness and ability to do so, I don't see any significant differences.

I have no issues with God in grace showing mercy. What I am questioning in the Islamic understanding of the mechanism by which mercy is obtained. Given that I think we all understand that God is Holy then logically (to me) he cannot simply forgive sin on a kind of whim? In this thread it has been repeated that good works bring merit but that is not enough and God has to tip the balance in our favour - how, how does he in holiness simply it seems ignore our wrong doings?

Hugo, if you were objecting to the manner in which our good deeds have merit and to what end they are counted as meritorious, I could understand that for in Christianity good deeds merit eternal rewards, but not salvation itself -- though we do have to remind ourselves that Jesus himself implies that the absence of appropriate works could result in a final judgment being rendered against us. However, that isn't the question I heard you asking. Maybe you meant for it to be?

The Bible clearly teaches that there will be rewards for good deeds however minor they may seem to us. But as I think you imply here the will never add up to be sufficient for God to declare us righteous because of them though a true belier will demonstrate their love for Good in worship and holy generous living.