Things in Islam I am curious about...

[Grace Seeker]

oops, i left out a word, i meant:

but your goal should NOT be to "study hadeeth" by reading Seerah as week hadeeth creep into the Story...

hew

LOL. That's OK. I did that recently in a different forum community where there was no opportunity for editting. And your left there with egg on your face for having said exactly the opposite of what you intended to say. Anyway, I'm glad I asked so that you could clarify.

Do you have a recommendation on the next book I might read after this present one? One of the above, or is there perhaps a book that serves as an introduction to the ahadith?

 

[YusufNoor]

i'm no expert on hadeeth. it's a complicated topic. the 1st issue is what do you want to study hadeeth for? [rhetorical there]

being rather new to Islam, i would state that the best "usable" [as in understanding Islam] would be
Imam An Nawawi's 40 Hadeeth [which are actually 42 and believe or not have a couple of week hadeeth!] and the 40 Hadeeth Qudsi [Authentic sayings of Allah yet NOT in the Qur'an]

http://www.40hadith.com/40hadith_en.htm

book here:

http://www.onlineislamicstore.com/b5362.html

however, i would comment that they need to be studied, not just read. as in this:

http://www.onlineislamicstore.com/b2879.html

and there is a lecture series, Heavenly Pearls, here:

http://www.kalamullah.com/abdis-salam.html

and 40 Hadeeth Qudsi here:

http://www.guidedways.com/qudsihadith.php

as for studying Ahadeeth as a science, i would defer to Dr Bilal Philips and Sheikh Jamal Zarabozo as the foremost "translators" of works in this arena, and Sheikh Abu Abdissalam is used by Dr Bilal Philips on his online course.

and actually, there are some free courses, provided by Dr Bilal Philips here:

http://www.islamiconlineuniversity.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=frontpage&Itemid=1

and here is the course list:

http://www.islamiconlineuniversity....ery&view=category&id=1:free-courses&Itemid=20

but for the Seerah, i love Dr Bashar Shala the BEST!

http://www.pleasantviewschool.com/media/default.asp?q=f&f=/Seerah_an_Nabawi (saw)

http://www.pleasantviewschool.com/media/default.asp?q=f&f=/Seerah of the Prophet (pbuh)

btw, i'm guessing you KNOW who Dr Bashar Shala is?

[video]http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032619/#39087645[/video]

[video]http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/vp/39069808#39069808[/video]

 

[Grace Seeker]

i'm no expert on hadeeth. it's a complicated topic. the 1st issue is what do you want to study hadeeth for? [rhetorical there]

Seems like an appropriate next step in seeking to expand my understanding of Islam given how important it is to Islam.

btw, i'm guessing you KNOW who Dr Bashar Shala is?

Not the slightest clue.

 

[YusufNoor]

Seems like an appropriate next step in seeking to expand my understanding of Islam given how important it is to Islam.



Not the slightest clue.

which was why i posted the 2 links!

watch the vids! they're short!

and one of my favorite hadeeth:

http://www.guidedways.com/qudsihadith.php?hadith=34

On the authority of Anas (may Allah be pleased with him), who said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) say:

"Allah the Almighty said:

'O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you. O son of Adam, were you to come to Me with sins nearly as great as the earth and were you then to face Me, ascribing no partner to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great as it.'"


[At-Tirmidhi (also by Ahmad ibn Hanbal). Its chain of authorities is sound.]

they once fixed the broken sound

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/Peace

..... Some of them, even I could say as a Christian without changing my beliefs

Pl. mention those. Interesting to know that Christians can utter Shahada without changing their belief.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Salaam/Peace



Pl. mention those. Interesting to know that Christians can utter Shahada without changing their belief.

I believe in God. I believe there is no God but God. I have no problem using the Arabic name for God. So, I could also say that I believe there is no God but Allah. (I don't think that a Muslim would accept my statement, as being what they mean, but for me, even as a Christian who worship's Jesus as God and who believes the Holy Spirit is God, it is still an expression of my deepest beliefs that there is but the one God who is God. For as I understand who the one God is, I see no contradiction between those sets of statements.

With respect to Muhammad. I can see that there were at least times that he spoke forth on behalf of God. For me, that is the definition of a prophet -- one who speaks forth on God's behalf. When Muhammad told the polytheists of the Arabian peninsula that there was no God but Allah, he was indeed acting as a prophet. When he lead his followers to develop behaviors that resulted in their discipline prayer life and ethical behaviors, he was again, as a prophet, speaking forth in God's behalf. It is not necessary that everything that a prophet say be considered a word from God, and I certainly don't share that view of Muhammad that Muslims do. Nor do I share the view that Muslims have that prophets are a group of super righteous persons that are prevented from ever doing wrong. So, since the Christian view of prophethood is NOT the same as the Muslim view of prophethood, I don't have to have the same view of Muhammad that the Muslim does in order for me with all sincerity to say that I believe Muhammad to have been a prophet.

Note also, that I use the indefinite article "a" rather than the definite article "the". This is because I would not elevate Muhammad up above other prophets. And I certainly wouldn't consider him the final prophet, for today I still see men and even women who speak forth on God's behalf and these people too would be appropriately termed prophets. Even if they were primarily known for other things, it would be true to say that they acted as a prophet for at least a period of time, just as I could say that of Muhammad.

But to say that "There is no God but God and Muhammad is one of his prophets." No problem.

 

[IAmZamzam]

The shahadah is, "There is no god but God and Muhammad is His final prophet."

And if he was a prophet, then by any at all meaningful sense of the word this would entail that, even if he were not infallible, at least his depiction of God to his followers certainly would be accurate, and both his prophethood and the Trinity, for instance, cannot possibly be true at the same time. You can't have it both ways.

 

[Grace Seeker]

The shahadah is, "There is no god but God and Muhammad is His final prophet."

And if he was a prophet, then by any at all meaningful sense of the word this would entail that, even if he were not infallible, at least his depiction of God to his followers certainly would be accurate, and both his prophethood and the Trinity, for instance, cannot possibly be true at the same time. You can't have it both ways.

Hey, she asked, and I answered. I didn't say you would be happy with it. But what you are unhappy with is not that I can say it, but that I can say it without feeling the need to mean the same thing you do by it.

Remember, all I said was that a Christian can with all sincerity say some of the forms of the Shahada that I have seen without changing his beliefs. That is precisely why I asked if there was perhaps an official way in which it had to be worded.

As for the term "final", I don't see that in every form of the Shahada. Again, that's why I asked if there was an "official" form that had to be used?

 

[glo]

But to say that "There is no God but God and Muhammad is one of his prophets." No problem.

The minister in my church told me the very same thing not so long ago.

He meets regularly with the imam of the local mosque and in a conversation our minister had told the imam that he could happily declare the shahada ("I testify that there is no God but God and that Muhammad is a messenger of God") without becoming a Muslim.
Obviously this was something the imam didn't necessarily agree with, but our minister held a very similar view to yours.

Personally, I would struggle a little bit with calling Muhammad a prophet. I guess it depends how you define prophet/messenger.
You describe the Christian understanding of a prophet very well, and according to that I could happily call Muhammad a prophet too.
But I think according to the Islamic understanding 'a prophet' is meant as somebody who speaks (recites) God's word perfectly and flawlessly.

 

[IAmZamzam]

Grace Seeker, I wouldn't have expected you of all people to sink so low as the, "Hey, nobody said you had to like it," cop-out, especially an instance of the cliche every bit as irrelevant as always to the statement it responds to (which, like the issue, was not about how I felt about anything, as you very well are consciously aware). I told you that any meaningful definition of a prophet would include that the depiction of God he gave to his followers is true, or else he wouldn't be much of a prophet at all. Can't you at least agree on that, or are you going to try to play it cool while wiggling out a second time?

 

[Grace Seeker]

I told you that any meaningful definition of a prophet would include that the depiction of God he gave to his followers is true, or else he wouldn't be much of a prophet at all. Can't you at least agree on that, or are you going to try to play it cool while wiggling out a second time?

I understand that this is your definition and understanding of a prophet. It is NOT mine. I truly do think that there are other, even better and more meaningful definitions of a prophet that that which you use.


And if I were to say the words spoken in the Shahada, I would say them meaning what I understand them to mean. They would indeed by THE words, and they would indeed be sincere. But I understand they would not mean what you seek for them to mean. Hence, out of respect for the religion of which those were are an important part of the ceremony of entry into the faith, I do not say. But again, it is not because I don't feel that I cannot. But because I would not want something to think I was saying something different than what I really am.


But I think that it also illustrates that in reality there must be more to becoming a Muslim than simply saying the magic words sincerely. For I, and apparently not I alone, can do that. Yet, I don't think that even if I did with witnesses that you would accept me as a Muslim. And I understand completely why you would not. I would not want you to. For I agree, we don't believe the same thing. But then, it appears that there is more to becoming a Muslim than simply reciting the words of the Shahada.

Nor is the Shahada itself as clear as you presuppose it to be, for the words of it can mean one thing to you and quite another to me. And I don't say that to twist its meaning (though I know it is not your meaning), but to say that is indeed what those words would mean to me if I did not know that they were part of a ceremony in which they were meant to mean something different than what they appear to me to actually say.

 

[IAmZamzam]

The only way to become a Muslim (as the whole Muslim world has been saying right from the very beginning) is to believe in God; and in the angels; and in all his prophets, including Muhammad (P) as his final one, regarding him no more than you would Jesus (P), or any of the others; to believe in the scriptures of Islam, and in Judgment Day. All of these things. Once you sincerely have embraced the belief, you are a Muslim. The Shahadah is not how you actually become Muslim, it is merely how you seal the pact verbally and enter into the community of Muslims, hence the witness thing. Were the words of the shahadah--however semantically spun they may be--enough then I would not have felt God yank all the sin-gunk out of my soul only instantly after I have made the decision to be a Muslim yet before I made the shahadah.

By the way, you've yet to explain to us how this "alternate" take of yours on what constitutes a prophet of the one true God can ever theoretically entail depicting God Himself to your followers falsely (without you being a false prophet???), whatever else may or may not be irrelevantly (for the purposes of our own unique discussion, I mean) infallible or sinless about you.

 

[glo]

And if I were to say the words spoken in the Shahada, I would say them meaning what I understand them to mean. They would indeed by THE words, and they would indeed be sincere. But I understand they would not mean what you seek for them to mean. Hence, out of respect for the religion of which those were are an important part of the ceremony of entry into the faith, I do not say. But again, it is not because I don't feel that I cannot. But because I would not want something to think I was saying something different than what I really am.

Nor is the Shahada itself as clear as you presuppose it to be, for the words of it can mean one thing to you and quite another to me. And I don't say that to twist its meaning (though I know it is not your meaning), but to say that is indeed what those words would mean to me if I did not know that they were part of a ceremony in which they were meant to mean something different than what they appear to me to actually say.

Doesn't this show that words alone are only words, and that their deeper meaning and interpretation comes from the one who speaks them?

I agree that spoken and interpreted from a non-Muslim's perspective the words of the Shahada can be read and understood quite differently to how Muslims understand them.

I often feel that many of the circular arguments and debates we have in this forum have their root in how people interpret words and expressions differently, based on their own background, culture and understanding.
So we can talk about the same words but actually attach completely different meaning to them. Unless we understand what the other means by the words s/he speak, we will possibly never get very far in understanding each other ... (which is an endless cause of frustration to me ...:hmm

 

[IAmZamzam]

You two are just determined to miss the point, aintcha? I do not feel like repeating it again.

EDIT: Okay, one, single, last time: the shahadah is not what makes you a Muslim. It is only what brings you into the Muslim community. That, and a sort of external acknolwedgement to wrap it all up with a neat little bow or however one would say it. Thus, what they could be "made to mean" is of no importance at all.

 

[IAmZamzam]

By the way, for the third time, the question stands:

By the way, you've yet to explain to us how this "alternate" take of yours on what constitutes a prophet of the one true God can ever theoretically entail depicting God Himself to your followers falsely (without you being a false prophet???), whatever else may or may not be irrelevantly (for the purposes of our own unique discussion, I mean) infallible or sinless about you.

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/Peace

..... I could also say that I believe there is no God but Allah. .

but Allah is not 3 in 1 . So , u cant utter / believe in the first statement of Islamic Shahada without changing your belief.

.

With respect to Muhammad. I can see that there were at least times that he spoke forth on behalf of God. For me, that is the definition of a prophet .

I guess , when Priests forgive the sinners in the Church after confession , they beleive they are speaking on behalf of God. In that case , do u think , they are all Prophets ?

.

"There is no God but God and Muhammad is one of his prophets." No problem.

Do u teach that in your Church ?

 

[Grace Seeker]

OK. There are several things being discussed simultaneously here, and I'm going to separate them to avoid confusing the issues.

To begin. The present line of questioning where I am answering questions about my belief (rather than asking questions regarding Islam) stems from a comment I made back here:

Some of [the forms of the Shahada], even I could say as a Christian without changing my beliefs (which Muslims would of course call shirk) one iota.

Note, I never said that my beliefs were Islamic in nature; indeed I confess that they are not. I only said that I could truthfully say those words based on my beliefs. To which I was asked to explain:

Salaam/Peace
Pl. mention those. Interesting to know that Christians can utter Shahada without changing their belief.

This I did, explaining what it is that I believe and how it is that I could then say those words, noting again that my understanding of what I meant by those words would indeed be different than what a Muslim's would expect one to mean by those words.

So, I do recognize the objections you have raised:

but Allah is not 3 in 1.

and

the shahadah is not what makes you a Muslim.

I'm not saying that my views are the views of those who would normally say the Shahada. I'm just answering the question put to me as to how it is that I could say it without changing my beliefs. And the answer is simple, I could say and believe it because those words that are said in saying the Shahada mean something entirely different to me as a Christian than they do to you as a Muslim.

And it is precisely because we have differing understandings of what those words that are uttered in the Shahada actually mean that as a Christian I could say the Shahada (or at least some of the forms for it that I have seen, not all) and not have to change my Christian beliefs -- because in saying the Shahada I would be meaning something different by it than what you would presuppose, yet it would be no less sincere of a statement.

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/Peace

... I never said that my beliefs were Islamic in nature; indeed I confess that they are not. I only said that I could truthfully say those words based on my beliefs. .

yes , it's not possible for any Christian to utter the Islamic Shahada without changing his/her belief. It's not possible for anyone to be Christian and and Muslim at the same time .

It reminds me that 2/3 yrs back , a Christian lady uttered the Shahada and started visiting mosque but at the same time , she was visiting church on Sundays. Both groups raised objection . Dont know what happened later.

 

[Grace Seeker]

A second issue is my understanding of prophethood:

I guess , when Priests forgive the sinners in the Church after confession , they beleive they are speaking on behalf of God. In that case , do u think , they are all Prophets ?

Do u teach that [Muhammad is a prophet] in your Church?

I'll respond briefly to this, because I think going in depth would take this thread off-topic.

No, I don't teach Muhammad is a prophet in my church.

No, I don't think that all priests are prophets because when they forgive peoples' sins they are speaking on behalf of God. In the case of the priests, what they are doing is repeating what God has already declared, wheras what I mean by "speaking forth on God's behalf" carries with it the sense of saying something new to the situation.

By the way, you've yet to explain to us how this "alternate" take of yours on what constitutes a prophet of the one true God can ever theoretically entail depicting God Himself to your followers falsely (without you being a false prophet???), whatever else may or may not be irrelevantly (for the purposes of our own unique discussion, I mean) infallible or sinless about you.

A person who is performing the role of a prophet, who is actually speaking forth on God's behalf, is NOT going to depict God falsely. I don't think I said anything that would imply that he would. What was it that I said that made you think I meant differently? The closest I believe I came was to say that prophethood is not necessarily a permament aspect of a person's life.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Salaam/Peace

yes , it's not possible for any Christian to utter the Islamic Shahada without changing his/her belief. It's not possible for anyone to be Christian and and Muslim at the same time .

Actually my point is precisely the opposite. It indeed is possible. But it would be problematic, and in my view disingenuous, for me to say it for I would know that you would think I meant something different by it than I actually did.

It reminds me that 2/3 yrs back , a Christian lady uttered the Shahada and started visiting mosque but at the same time , she was visiting church on Sundays. Both groups raised objection . Dont know what happened later.

I don't know what happened with her either. But it seemed to me at the time that she wasn't being honest with respect to either group.