Things in Islam I am curious about...

[czgibson]

Greetings,

you think satan is a muslim?? no he is a non-muslim and so are those that follow him.

To be quite frank I think that Satan is a fictional character. He's also not mentioned in the argument I thought we were discussing.

Don't be so presumptuous, He lives in UK where the Music BHOOM is, im sure he knows what he is talking about.

You yourself admitted you didn't know what music I was talking about; therefore, you don't have a particularly wide knowledge of music. As for the article we're discussing, the author shows no indication of knowing anything about music.

try to understand that prevention is better then cure. with all the technological advancements the
state of humanity as a whole is still deteriorting. Thee are more crimes and deseases then ever before.

Evidence for this bold assertion?!

Gun crimes, teen pregnancies, drugs & alcahol abuse and disorderly behaviour is a common trend with the youths these days
and they all have one thing in common...yes you guessed it! there love for music, apparently its a their single most
big influence, that and eastenders round where i live anyways

Are you interested in having a rational debate here, or are you just going to make baseless generalisations?

As far as I know only the duff was allowed is allowed. The prominent scholars who are far more knowledgable of Islam
have selflessly undertook rigirous studies in order to guide mankind have made the ruling that Music is Haram.

Selflessly? It's their job! Continuing to do what they do helps to consolidate their position of authority.

Also, is it not Allah that has supposedly made music haram?

but you have to keep an open mind to this, as Allah(SWT) made laws for the whole of mankind based on their limits, abilities to do things,
with the knowledge of the unseen and infinite wisdom. We accept his judgements knwoing we cannot fathom his reasoning and ration, onyl knowing that he knows whats best for us even though we cannot fathom how, its called FAITH.

That's precisely why I think faith can be so dangeous. Someone who believes they are right, even though they have no real reasons to support their view, is capable of anything.

The best of mankind Mohammad(SAW) didn't do it nor his companions and the PROMINENT scholars upon studying the Qur'an and sunnah have some to the
conclusion that it's because it leads to Unlawful thoughts/actions.

They've tried to justify a ruling after the fact, and as I've been trying to show, their justifications are based on ignorance and paranoia - little more.

But where there is doubt one should leave it. WOuld you eat a sandwhich which has rat-droppings around it only to suffer the consequences if it did later? I think not... well at least I hope so.

Thank you for that rather colourful analogy, although I'm not sure how it fits in here...

Technological advncements maybe but bought prosperity? I THINK NOT :rant:

What has led you to this view? The gap between rich and poor is substantial now, but nothing like as wide as it was, say, 600 years ago.

Well atleast you tried to keep those inflammatory remarks to yourself till the end eh?

What is inflammatory about them? If you believe the arguments given by the article we're discussing, you are being conned - it's as simple as that.

Don't just believe whatever you're told simply because the person telling you is in a position of authority - think for yourself.

Peace

 

[Grace Seeker]

WnbSlveOfAllah,

I've had my curiousity settle with regard to Muslim interpreations of music. However, there is one part of your presentation against music that leads me to ask another question. I asked it above, but it went unanswered. Would you mind addressig it, please.

One of the harms of music is that it distracts one from his Creator. It serves as a temporary means of pleasure and satisfaction, which makes one forget who he really is and why he was created. This is the reason why musical instruments are known in the Arabic language as ‘malaahi’ meaning instruments that prevent one from the remembrance of Allah Almighty.

Human has been created for a noble purpose. Allah Most High says:

“I have created jinn and humans only that they serve (worship) me” (Surah al-Dhariyat, 56).

Music and temporary entertainments sink the human in physical pleasures and prevent him/her from true spiritual gains. In conclusion, music has a great role to play in preventing a human from realising the purpose of creation.

Surely this concern over the effects of music is found in nearly all forms of entertainment. Would not entertainment itself, not just in the form of music but in all of its forms have a great role in distracting us from our creator, thus preventing humans from realizing their purpose in creation? So, shouldn't all forms of entertainment, not just music, be haraam?

 

[KAding]

What I always wonder about, is it the task of an Islamic state to outlaw something like music? Is everything that is haram in Islam automatically outlawed? And would such prohibitions also be in force for non-Muslims who live in an Islamic state?

 

[zoro]

With respect to ideas about music in Islam, I found the following comments interesting, copied from Link deleted .

47. by Saadiq

Speaking as a Muslim, what Islam lacks most today in contrast to the times of Mohammed is the Islamic concept of ijtihad, or creative interpretation.

There are certain teachings of the faith that believers hold to transcend time and space, to be sure. But many of the teachings of the Qur'an and hadith were intended to be dynamic and flexible, evolving over time to best fit with the various societies that practiced Islam. Hence, ijtihad.

In it's golden age, Islamic philosophers espoused a wide variety interpretations of Islamic law and life; sometimes, these interpretations were contradictory, as well, but everybody lived and let live.

This faith is now lacking within the organized structure of Islam and has been replaced with a neurotic fear of pluralism and innovation, a trend that not only betrays the past of Islam, but threatens its future, as well.

And the following response by khorshid (#128):

This closing of the door of Ijtihad is connected to the ascendance of a clergy class, despite the fact that in theory islam is not supposed to have any clergy.

These interpreters of the law find it in their interest to prevent too much reasoning and innovation in order to preserve their hold on the present…

My impression is that, once again and as with most religions, it is the clerics' quest for power that has taken some good ideas and twisted them for the clerics' benefit.

 

[Woodrow]

The quotes in the post above can not be accepted as fact for Muslims unless it can be shown they are supported by Sunnah and authentic Ahadith

 

[Philosopher]

What is halal and what is haram in regards to music? What makes one halal and the other haram?

Sunnis believe all music is haraam. Shia Muslims believe that any music is allowed as long as the lyrics have no explicit content.

 

[InToTheRain]

Greetings,


To be quite frank I think that Satan is a fictional character. He's also not mentioned in the argument I thought we were discussing.

Thats your belief. In Islam, christianity and Judaism as well as other religions the existence of Satan is a very real thing.

You yourself admitted you didn't know what music I was talking about; therefore, you don't have a particularly wide knowledge of music. As for the article we're discussing, the author shows no indication of knowing anything about music.

I admtted I didn't know the type of music your talking about. However it doesn't take a genius to figure alcahol in its many varieties when consumed will cause negative affects to the body (Haram) however when applied as medicine it is permited (Halal). Similiarly there are case Music is Haram unless using certain instruments and the context of the song.

Evidence for this bold assertion?!

Are you interested in having a rational debate here, or are you just going to make baseless generalisations?

Living in London and having first hand experience I would hardly say its Baseless. What s baseless is to think the world is full of bowls of roses just because you have no problems with it.
If your argument for properity of a nation is technological advancements and economic growth then you should really take a look at this. Uk being one of the most pwerful countries in the EU is the still the worst for the youth of today:

http://www.islamicboard.com/world-affairs/37633-britain-worst-place-children-europe.html#post665811

"Illustrating the yawning gap between rich and poor, it said the 20 percent of people living in high-income countries consume 86 percent of the world's goods and services. The poorest 20 percent, by contrast, consume just 1.3 percent, the UN gives in a snap shot of the wealth and poverty of nations. "

http://academic.udayton.edu/race/06hrights/GeoRegions/NorthAmerica/china03.htm

http://southmovement.alphalink.com.au/southnews/980911-UNrichpoor.htm

They've tried to justify a ruling after the fact, and as I've been trying to show, their justifications are based on ignorance and paranoia - little more.

Thank you for that rather colourful analogy, although I'm not sure how it fits in here...?

Its a metaphor. The sandwhich is Music, and the rat droppings are doubts we may have about if it is right or wrong to listen to it based on our belief. Given that it is Haram except for certain instruments, we should stay away from it even though we cannot comprehend at first why it would lead to a negative result. As I have explained before, it is called faith, and I have no reasons to doubt my faith to date.

What has led you to this view? The gap between rich and poor is substantial now, but nothing like as wide as it was, say, 600 years ago.?

Now who is the one making baseless assertions?

What is inflammatory about them? If you believe the arguments given by the article we're discussing, you are being conned - it's as simple as that.

Don't just believe whatever you're told simply because the person telling you is in a position of authority - think for yourself.

Peace

Thanks for the advice and I'm not as gullible or naive as you as you have assumed due to your prejudice. I sincerely hope that you and many others who are ignorant of Islam do your own research as well.

 

[InToTheRain]

WnbSlveOfAllah,
Surely this concern over the effects of music is found in nearly all forms of entertainment. Would not entertainment itself, not just in the form of music but in all of its forms have a great role in distracting us from our creator, thus preventing humans from realizing their purpose in creation? So, shouldn't all forms of entertainment, not just music, be haraam?

Hi Grace_seeker,

Too much of anything is not good for us, and as sister Purest_ambrosia has pointed out, Mohammad(SAW) told us to strike the balance.

Just to give an example of how too much a good thing may lead to a bad thing from one of the companions of the Prophet Salmaan Al-Farsi(RA):

[PIE]He once stayed with Abu Ad-Dardaa', under the same roof. Abu Ad-Dardaa' used to pray all night and fast all day. Salmaan blamed him for this excessive worship. One day, Salmaan wanted to stop him from fasting and to say it was supererogatory. Abu Ad-Dardaa' asked him, "Would you prevent me from fasting for my Lord and from praying to Him?" Salmaan replied, "No, your eyes have a claim upon you, your family has a claim upon you, so fast intermittently, then pray and sleep."

This reached the Prophet (PBUH) who said, "Salmaan is, indeed, full of knowledge." The Prophet (PBUH) was often impressed by his wisdom and knowledge, just as he was impressed by his character and religion. On the Day of Al-Khandaq the Ansaar stood up and said, "Salmaan is of us," the Muhaajiruun stood up also and said, "Salmaan is of us." The Prophet called to them saying, "Salmaan is of us, O People of the House (Prophet's house)."

http://www.iberr.org/salmaan.htm
[/PIE]

There is no reason we can't entertain ourselves so long as it is permissible. In the article the speaker is giving his opinon, he is partially right, we can do other things such as reciting the Quran which I find entertaining and from here we also find that our ideas of entertainment isn't the same. We also learn that the speaker is talking about the youth if today and what they find entertaining which has a lot of haram things within it.

Where the scholars have given valid concensus derived from Quran and Sunnah for something to be permissible I don't see anything wrong with doing it.

 

[Grace Seeker]

There is no reason we can't entertain ourselves so long as it is permissible.

But the argument against music was that one of the reason it isn't permissible is because it is entertainment. These two views seem to work against each other.

In the article the speaker is giving his opinon, he is partially right, we can do other things such as reciting the Quran which I find entertaining and from here we also find that our ideas of entertainment isn't the same.

I get that doing that which is good for you, one learns to enjoy. But we don't read the Qu'ran for entertainment. We read it for edification and then also derive joy from it in addition, as a side benefit. The argument was that which is done purely for entertainment (reading the Qu'ran does not fit that description) is haraam. So, I am suggesting that this would apply to many other things, such as the activies of the youth you mention. But not just of youth, I see old men and women do things purely for entertainment as well, I think people always have. According to the argument advanced against music, wouldn't those things be haraam as well.

And, just thinking a little more deeply, even reading the Qu'ran, if read purely for entertainment, and not to praise God or to grow in knowledge of God, but simply for one's selfish amusement, I would think that it too might not be pleaseing to Allah. Perhaps it is possible to read the Qu'ran in an unfit manner, and I can't think of one more unfitting Allah, than to read his word, purely for entertainment.

 

[Silver Pearl]

Greetings Grace,

I hope you don't mind that I'm addressing your post.

But the argument against music was that one of the reason it isn't permissible is because it is entertainment. These two views seem to work against each other.

The fact that music is not permissible has nothing to do with it being entertaining as far as I know, if that were the case no sport would be allowed in Islam. There are various reasons as to why it not allowed. I'm sure people have highlighted this for you already so I'll save both of us time by not dwelling into that. Music is very dominant in society, you can not go anywhere without having music blaring in your ears, whether it is awful music or good music. The youth are influenced highly by what type of music they listen to. Alot of the time music has a negative impact on youngsters. Certain types of music makes them more suicidal and depressed, the lyrics are very morbid. Then you have the pimp wanna-bes advocated by alot of hip-hop and RnB music. Music soothes some people, music inspires cerrtain people but all of that is psychological, if I keep telling myself that music soothes me it will do just that. Our mind is a great tool, you can sometimes deceive it.

I get that doing that which is good for you, one learns to enjoy. But we don't read the Qu'ran for entertainment.

People differ, when I read the Qur'an I read it for entertainment, just like I read books for entertainment. This is not disrepectful nor am I doing it for selfish amusement. When I'm obliged to read a text for analytical purpose however it kills all the entertainment out of it. Your last statement is a generalisation and holds little basis for it.

We read it for edification and then also derive joy from it in addition, as a side benefit.

I'd have to disagree based on the comments I made above.

The argument was that which is done purely for entertainment (reading the Qu'ran does not fit that description) is haraam. So, I am suggesting that this would apply to many other things, such as the activies of the youth you mention. But not just of youth, I see old men and women do things purely for entertainment as well, I think people always have. According to the argument advanced against music, wouldn't those things be haraam as well.

I know you're not addressing me, I think perhaps you may have misunderstood what WnB meant or perhaps he rephrased his comment too ambigioiusly. I have not heard that music was made unlawful because it is entertaining.

And God knows best

 

[Grace Seeker]

Greetings Grace,

I hope you don't mind that I'm addressing your post.



The fact that music is not permissible has nothing to do with it being entertaining as far as I know, if that were the case no sport would be allowed in Islam. There are various reasons as to why it not allowed. I'm sure people have highlighted this for you already so I'll save both of us time by not dwelling into that. Music is very dominant in society, you can not go anywhere without having music blaring in your ears, whether it is awful music or good music. The youth are influenced highly by what type of music they listen to. Alot of the time music has a negative impact on youngsters. Certain types of music makes them more suicidal and depressed, the lyrics are very morbid. Then you have the pimp wanna-bes advocated by alot of hip-hop and RnB music. Music soothes some people, music inspires cerrtain people but all of that is psychological, if I keep telling myself that music soothes me it will do just that. Our mind is a great tool, you can sometimes deceive it.



People differ, when I read the Qur'an I read it for entertainment, just like I read books for entertainment. This is not disrepectful nor am I doing it for selfish amusement. When I'm obliged to read a text for analytical purpose however it kills all the entertainment out of it. Your last statement is a generalisation and holds little basis for it.



I'd have to disagree based on the comments I made above.




I know you're not addressing me, I think perhaps you may have misunderstood what WnB meant or perhaps he rephrased his comment too ambigioiusly. I have not heard that music was made unlawful because it is entertaining.

And God knows best

I don't mind you addressing this point at all. Your very simple, reasoned, logical argument was most refreshing. Your points with respect to sometimes just reading of the Qu'ran for its entertainment value are well taken. And I would think that doing so would NOT distract you from the Creator.

Further, from my experience the same is probalby true with books (and, for me, even with music). So, it could be that something could have entertainment value, from which would be a means of pleasure and satisfaction in life, and still not make one forget who one really is or why one was created. If that is your point, then we definitely agree.

I am also aware that not all arguments against music are based on the question of its role as a form of entertainment, but some have been.

Here is the part of WnB's post that led to my question.

One of the harms of music is that it distracts one from his Creator. It serves as a temporary means of pleasure and satisfaction, which makes one forget who he really is and why he was created. This is the reason why musical instruments are known in the Arabic language as ‘malaahi’ meaning instruments that prevent one from the remembrance of Allah Almighty.

Human has been created for a noble purpose. Allah Most High says:

“I have created jinn and humans only that they serve (worship) me” (Surah al-Dhariyat, 56).

Music and temporary entertainments sink the human in physical pleasures and prevent him/her from true spiritual gains. In conclusion, music has a great role to play in preventing a human from realising the purpose of creation.

As that was part of a greater argument against music. I am just suggesting that one could substitute nearly any other form of entertainment for the word "music" in his post, if entertainment is the problem. Thus it would read: "One of the harms of sports, or reading books, or playing cards,..."

Now, if that seems inappropriate to do, then it would seem that at least this argument against music (one which if you read this post, and all the links provided has been repeated several times) should be dismissed as not applicable. Leave the others, things like: "because Muhammad (pbuh) said so", but don't continue to add specious arguments where the maker of the argument is unwilling to follow it to its logical conclusion.

 

[InToTheRain]

Here is the part of WnB's post that led to my question. As that was part of a greater argument against music. I am just suggesting that one could substitute nearly any other form of entertainment for the word "music" in his post, if entertainment is the problem. Thus it would read: "One of the harms of sports, or reading books, or playing cards,..."

Now, if that seems inappropriate to do, then it would seem that at least this argument against music (one which if you read this post, and all the links provided has been repeated several times) should be dismissed as not applicable. Leave the others, things like: "because Muhammad (pbuh) said so", but don't continue to add specious arguments where the maker of the argument is unwilling to follow it to its logical conclusion.

I completely agree with you, that he could have used many other forms of entertainment to highlight the problem, but he is talking about a certain category of people and the affects he has seen on them due to music.

As Sister SilverPearl has said, Entertainment is not Haram and not everyone finds the same things entertaining. The article mentions that entertainment distracts you from your creator but would that be applicable to me as I find reading the Qur'an out loud, or even listening to it entertaining? I also play various sports such as tennis, football etc regardless I am aware of the times I need to pray and even work in praises for Allah(SWT) during my sports games (highly entertaining might I add ). In the article he is talking about a certain category of individuals with a certain mindset which unfortunately is the Majority amongst the Muslim youths of today, maybe adult as well as you have mentioned. without a doubt, he could have used words to communicate the same message, as I have also mentioned before, I may have made a mistake by posting the article here as a non-muslim will misinterpret it.

Peace

 

[Grace Seeker]

I may have made a mistake by posting the article here as a non-muslim will misinterpret it.

Peace

We might. But, please don't let that stop you from posting. I have asked because I am curious about these things. And this is NOT just a question and answer thread. I don't mind debate, becaue I learn from debating. The reasons behind something or the process by which one reaches a particular view are just as informative to me as the answer itself. And if you sense that I am misinterpreting, I invite you to post again and again, as much as you find necessary.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Music certainly can effect one's emotions. I don't see that as a particularly good or bad thing, but I do agree it has that effect.

As for it arousing men sexually and leading to fornication, doesn't that depend on the song? I imagine some songs would even have the opposite effect.

 

[Malaikah]

As for it arousing men sexually and leading to fornication, doesn't that depend on the song? I imagine some songs would even have the opposite effect.

Well yeh, but about 95% of the current music industry seems to fit in that category. :rollseyes

 

[duskiness]

Well yeh, but about 95% of the current music industry seems to fit in that category. :rollseyes

maybe 95% of pop, r'n'b, hiphop music. But there are other kinds! Jazz as an easy example.

 

[Ayesha Rana]

You\'ve been very polite throughout this discussion Grace Seeker and i respect u for that. You mentioned in the beginning that alot of muslims listen to music, well id like to say that music is a temptation and not everyone is strong enough to resist it, even if they know it is Haram.
Im glad that alot of the brothers and sisters on LI have knowledge of it being Haram Alhamdu\'lillah.
I was told that we cannot love both music and Qur’an at the same time and that they have a battle in our heart till one of them is thrown out and our heart is filled with the other.
Well I\'d like my heart to be filled with Allah’s guidance so I don’t listen to music, even if the instruments are used in Islamic Nasheeds, because mixing Halal and Haram does not make what is forbidden Halal.

 

[Grace Seeker]

As for it arousing men sexually and leading to fornication, doesn't that depend on the song? I imagine some songs would even have the opposite effect.

Well yeh, but about 95% of the current music industry seems to fit in that category. :rollseyes

Not only the current music industry, but when one looks back in time, one finds the vast majority of popular songs to be about various types of love relationships. However, I don't think that means we should label all music as guilty of that character simply because so much of it is? Nor if I was passing judgment on music simply on whether or not people can be led astray by it, would I want to pass the same sentence on music that does not lead people astray that I do on music that does, simply because both are music. It may be a small percentage, but there is still plenty of music that is righteous and uplifting.

Having never been to Australia, the only Australians I know are people like Rod Stewart, Olivia Newton John, and Elle McPhearson. Based on that should I treat all Australians as I would them?

And then there is the biblical story of Lot in Sodom. God tells Abraham that he is going to destroy Sodom because of the wickedness there.

Genesis 18
16 When the men got up to leave, they looked down toward Sodom, and Abraham walked along with them to see them on their way. 17 Then the LORD said, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do? 18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him. 19 For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing what is right and just, so that the LORD will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him."
20 Then the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know."

22 The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the LORD. [e] 23 Then Abraham approached him and said: "Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare [f] the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge [g] of all the earth do right?"

26 The LORD said, "If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake."

27 Then Abraham spoke up again: "Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, though I am nothing but dust and ashes, 28 what if the number of the righteous is five less than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city because of five people?"
"If I find forty-five there," he said, "I will not destroy it."

29 Once again he spoke to him, "What if only forty are found there?"
He said, "For the sake of forty, I will not do it."

30 Then he said, "May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak. What if only thirty can be found there?"
He answered, "I will not do it if I find thirty there."

31 Abraham said, "Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, what if only twenty can be found there?"
He said, "For the sake of twenty, I will not destroy it."

32 Then he said, "May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?"
He answered, "For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it."

33 When the LORD had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home.

Evidently God did not find even 10 righteous people in Sodom for he destoryed it, rescuing only Lot, his wife, and 2 daughters. But the point of this part of the story is that you don't condemn the righteous with the unrighteous, even if it is 95% bad. In my humble opinion, I think the same is true with regard to music.

 

[AbuAbdallah]

salaam,
If I may interject here.

I just want to emphasize the point that music is haraam is because it is an order from Allah. Not because it is entertainment or that it leads to fornication. Why is eating pork haraam? Why do we enter the Mosque with our right foot? We can't always search for the reasons why, sometimes the reasons are explained or are obvious, and sometimes they aren't.
Having to know why something is halaal or haraam is not a condition of following that act.

If we as Muslims learned that listening to music or eating pork would make us live longer healthier lives, would we do it? Why not? Because the reason for doing something is not based on logic, it is based on fearing your Lord and doing what he commands.

And Allah knows best

 

[Grace Seeker]

If we as Muslims learned that listening to music or eating pork would make us live longer healthier lives, would we do it? Why not? Because the reason for doing something is not based on logic, it is based on fearing your Lord and doing what he commands.

And Allah knows best

:bravo: Truly a well spoken answer. Righteousness before reason.


Yet, my thanks to those who tried to help me get at what might be behind this thinking also.