Things in Islam I am curious about...

[Grace Seeker]

Greetings of Peace Brother Gene,

forgive me for asking about this remark as i do realize that it IS your thread...

BUT, has God's Character changed that He needed a NEW covenant?? ie, Christianity.
has God's Character changed in doing away with the Temple at Jerusalem?
has God's Character changed in changing, according to some Christians, the Sabbath from sunset Friday to sunset Saturday to all day Sunday?
has God's Character changed when Christians themselves changed said Sabbath?
has God's Character changed when "doing away" with circumcision?
has God's Character changed in, according to some Christians, doing away with dietary laws?
has God's Character changed in, according to most Chrisitans, doing away with polygamy?
has God's Character changed in initiating Baptism?
has God's Character changed in "doing way with" the ancient Israeli Holy Days?
has God's Character changed in that now He prefers Pagan holidays to those Holy Days?
has God's Character changed in doing away with animal sacrifice?

Christiany can "change" ALL THAT and still remain viable, but some Muslims claim, and i'm not yet convinced it's correct, that music is Haram and THAT makes you feel that Islam is not valid?

really???

just wondering?

by that way, it's been a fascinating discussion 'tween you and Malaikah!
props to Malaikah!!



Yusuf

Yes, I agree it has been a fascinating conversation. Yes, I do believe God has created a New Covenant (even in not exactly the way in which you stated, for instance I don't think that God's character has changed), and yet I question Islam because of a change in the view of God toward music. Your point is well taken. Thank-you. And thank-you for the very subtle and kind way you made it.


And I agree, props too to Malaikah with her understanding of how it might be that God might change his views of what is good for us, not because it is itself good or bad, but because of our ability (or lack there of) to handle it appropriately in society. (I have advanced this same argument myself with regard to alcohol at times.)

Of course, I'm not sure that I agree with the conclusion, but I have a better sense of why you might see it as a gracious act of God rather than a capricious and callous decision. These last two posts restore a sense of grace that I was missing throughout much of this thread.

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

^^Alhumdulillah, thats good

 

[Grace Seeker]

OK. Is everyone ready for my next question?



This is an excerpt from a post in another thread:

I don't like your choice of word "Would not God continue the deception after the crucifixion and make people think they found Jesus since He induced them to think they crucified Him?"G-D doesn't deceive!

The original poster (a non-Muslim) was remarking on the Islamic view that someone other than Jesus died on the cross. And that God made it so that everyone simply thought it was Jesus when it really wasn't him at all. To this the subesquent poster (a Muslim) was upset not by the reference to the subsititution, but that it was categorized as a deception.

While I don't believe God to be a deceiver either, my question is this: What else do you call it, when God makes something that is held to be not true (Jesus death on the cross) appear to be as if it were real, besides deception?

 

[جوري]

OK. Is everyone ready for my next question?



This is an excerpt from a post in another thread:



The original poster (a non-Muslim) was remarking on the Islamic view that someone other than Jesus died on the cross. And that God made it so that everyone simply thought it was Jesus when it really wasn't him at all. To this the subesquent poster (a Muslim) was upset not by the reference to the subsititution, but that it was categorized as a deception.

While I don't believe God to be a deceiver either, my question is this: What else do you call it, when God makes something that is held to be not true (Jesus death on the cross) appear to be as if it were real, besides deception?

Everyone doesn't think Jesus died on the cross... that is your own modern Christian perspective. Those who tried to do Jesus (PBUH) harm, were fooled into believing it was him on the cross.... (they were the true deceivers)
I borrowed this from bro. Al. Madani
proving that even during the time of Jesus (PBUH) not everyone were "deceived" into believing that Jesus was crucified either....



He was taken up both body and soul and he will return with both body and soul:
Ibn Abi Hatim recorded that Ibn `Abbas said, "Just before Allah raised `Isa to the heavens, `Isa went to his companions, who were twelve inside the house. When he arrived, his hair was dripping water and he said, `There are those among you who will disbelieve in me twelve times after he had believed in me.' He then asked, `Who volunteers that his image appear as mine, and be killed in my place. He will be with me (in Paradise)' One of the youngest ones among them volunteered and `Isa asked him to sit down. `Isa again asked for a volunteer, and the young man kept volunteering and `Isa asking him to sit down. Then the young man volunteered again and `Isa said, `You will be that man,' and the resemblance of `Isa was cast over that man while `Isa ascended to heaven from a hole in the house. When the Jews came looking for `Isa, they found that young man and crucified him. Some of `Isa's followers disbelieved in him twelve times after they had believed in him. They then divided into three groups. One group, Al-Ya`qubiyyah (Jacobites), said, `Allah remained with us as long as He willed and then ascended to heaven.' Another group, An-Nasturiyyah (Nestorians), said, `The son of Allah was with us as long as he willed and Allah took him to heaven.' Another group, Muslims, said, `The servant and Messenger of Allah remained with us as long as Allah willed, and Allah then took him to Him.' The two disbelieving groups cooperated against the Muslim group and they killed them. Ever since that happened, Islam was then veiled until Allah sent Muhammad .'' This statement has an authentic chain of narration leading to Ibn `Abbas, and An-Nasa'i narrated it through Abu Kurayb who reported it from Abu Mu`awiyah. Many among the Salaf stated that `Isa asked if someone would volunteer for his appearance to be cast over him, and that he will be killed instead of `Isa, for which he would be his companion in Paradise.

http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=4&tid=12730

Already the proof is in the Quran and in the Gospel if it weren't so deranged from original word

وَقَوْلِهِمْ إِنَّا قَتَلْنَا الْمَسِيحَ عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولَ اللّهِ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ وَمَا صَلَبُوهُ وَلَـكِن شُبِّهَ لَهُمْ وَإِنَّ الَّذِينَ اخْتَلَفُواْ فِيهِ لَفِي شَكٍّ مِّنْهُ مَا لَهُم بِهِ مِنْ عِلْمٍ إِلاَّ اتِّبَاعَ الظَّنِّ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ يَقِينًا {157}​

[Pickthal 4:157] And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.

لَّـكِنِ الرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ مِنْهُمْ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِمَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيكَ وَمَا أُنزِلَ مِن قَبْلِكَ وَالْمُقِيمِينَ الصَّلاَةَ وَالْمُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَاةَ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الآخِرِ أُوْلَـئِكَ سَنُؤْتِيهِمْ أَجْرًا عَظِيمًا {162}​

[Pickthal 4:162] But those of them who are firm in knowledge and the believers believe in that which is revealed unto thee, and that which was revealed before thee, especially the diligent in prayer and those who pay the poor-due, the believers in Allah and the Last Day. Upon these We shall bestow immense reward.


To deceive it to conceal the truth to cause to accept as true or valid what is false or invalid... but the truth here is written for all to see clear as day for those who are lucid to reflect and search instead of just accept!

The true deception falls on St. Paul and Athanasius the champion of Trinity for this state of modern Christianity!

peace!

 

[Grace Seeker]

Even in this account you have written that Jesus asked: "Who volunteers that his image appear as mine". So, now the 12 know the truth. But it appears that Allah is very intentionally trying to make others think that they have been successful in killing Jesus when they have not. And the means he uses for this is to make them believe something is true which in fact is not true.

What am I missing in the story?
1) The youth is in essence wearing a Jesus mask over his entire body when they take him to be crucified.
2) Allah is the one who had him put it on.
3) This was done with the intent to make them think they had crucified Jesus, something which in fact was not true.

 

[جوري]

What am I missing in the story?.

I don't know!

1) The youth is in essence wearing a Jesus mask over his entire body when they take him to be crucified..

mask? where did you read of a mask anywhere?

2) Allah is the one who had him put it on..

put what on?

3) This was done with the intent to make them think they had crucified Jesus, something which in fact was not true.

Why not? from a Christian perspective, I wouldn't understand why G-D would foresake his "son"? Sacrificing his "son "seems far much worst to me to so-called deception even more unusual is how Jesus is part G-D and still asks why he was foresaken?? Shouldn't a G-D or a son of G-D know of G-D's intent? which technically is also his own?..furthermore why would he display fear or grief or even question being foresaken?...:-\

 

[Grace Seeker]

One more time.

As I understand the Muslim version of the event:

1) Jesus does not die, but someone else dies in his place.

2) Allah makes this person appear to be Jesus to everyone who witnesses the crucifixion.

3) If those people believe their eyes (and none but the 12 knew any different), they will believe something that is not true (Jesus died on the cross) to be true.

4) Allah is the one who created the scenario whereby these people would believe a falsehood was the truth.

These are the facts of the situation as I understand it to have taken place according to the teachings of Islam. Do I have the facts summarized correctly?

 

[ABWAN]

I dont think its only the muslims who believe Jesus was not crucified. Logically from a non-muslim's perspective, it would make more sense not to look at what happened 600 years after birth of Jesus. They could very well look at what happened in just 100-200 years since the birth of Jesus.

With that logic, if you look at the beliefs of gnostics, especially Basilides, they also agree that it was not Jesus who was crucified, but it was someone else. They believe this 'someone else' took up the position of Jesus at the very last moment. As far as Islam is concerned, i am not sure if it mentions a specific point of time when that 'someone else' was made Jesus.

Now, I am not familiar with who were there (from local community, jews and roman empire representatives) when Jesus was crucified. I think christians might know better.

2) Allah makes this person appear to be Jesus to everyone who witnesses the crucifixion.

3) If those people believe their eyes (and none but the 12 knew any different), they will believe something that is not true (Jesus died on the cross) to be true.

4) Allah is the one who created the scenario whereby these people would believe a falsehood was the truth.

I see your point here. But how can we interpret the word "appear" literally? I have no clue what happened that time, but I feel its not worth exploring what "appear" means. There are references in both Islam and christianity that God created Adam in His image. now does it mean God looks like a man? It would, if we take the word "image" literally.

 

[north_malaysian]

Everyone doesn't think Jesus died on the cross... that is your own modern Christian perspective. Those who tried to do Jesus (PBUH) harm, were fooled into believing it was him on the cross.... (they were the true deceivers)
I borrowed this from bro. Al. Madani
proving that even during the time of Jesus (PBUH) not everyone were "deceived" into believing that Jesus was crucified either....



He was taken up both body and soul and he will return with both body and soul:
Ibn Abi Hatim recorded that Ibn `Abbas said, "Just before Allah raised `Isa to the heavens, `Isa went to his companions, who were twelve inside the house. When he arrived, his hair was dripping water and he said, `There are those among you who will disbelieve in me twelve times after he had believed in me.' He then asked, `Who volunteers that his image appear as mine, and be killed in my place. He will be with me (in Paradise)' One of the youngest ones among them volunteered and `Isa asked him to sit down. `Isa again asked for a volunteer, and the young man kept volunteering and `Isa asking him to sit down. Then the young man volunteered again and `Isa said, `You will be that man,' and the resemblance of `Isa was cast over that man while `Isa ascended to heaven from a hole in the house. When the Jews came looking for `Isa, they found that young man and crucified him. Some of `Isa's followers disbelieved in him twelve times after they had believed in him. They then divided into three groups. One group, Al-Ya`qubiyyah (Jacobites), said, `Allah remained with us as long as He willed and then ascended to heaven.' Another group, An-Nasturiyyah (Nestorians), said, `The son of Allah was with us as long as he willed and Allah took him to heaven.' Another group, Muslims, said, `The servant and Messenger of Allah remained with us as long as Allah willed, and Allah then took him to Him.' The two disbelieving groups cooperated against the Muslim group and they killed them. Ever since that happened, Islam was then veiled until Allah sent Muhammad .'' This statement has an authentic chain of narration leading to Ibn `Abbas, and An-Nasa'i narrated it through Abu Kurayb who reported it from Abu Mu`awiyah. Many among the Salaf stated that `Isa asked if someone would volunteer for his appearance to be cast over him, and that he will be killed instead of `Isa, for which he would be his companion in Paradise.

http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=4&tid=12730

Already the proof is in the Quran and in the Gospel if it weren't so deranged from original word

وَقَوْلِهِمْ إِنَّا قَتَلْنَا الْمَسِيحَ عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولَ اللّهِ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ وَمَا صَلَبُوهُ وَلَـكِن شُبِّهَ لَهُمْ وَإِنَّ الَّذِينَ اخْتَلَفُواْ فِيهِ لَفِي شَكٍّ مِّنْهُ مَا لَهُم بِهِ مِنْ عِلْمٍ إِلاَّ اتِّبَاعَ الظَّنِّ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ يَقِينًا {157}​

[Pickthal 4:157] And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.

لَّـكِنِ الرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ مِنْهُمْ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِمَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيكَ وَمَا أُنزِلَ مِن قَبْلِكَ وَالْمُقِيمِينَ الصَّلاَةَ وَالْمُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَاةَ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الآخِرِ أُوْلَـئِكَ سَنُؤْتِيهِمْ أَجْرًا عَظِيمًا {162}​

[Pickthal 4:162] But those of them who are firm in knowledge and the believers believe in that which is revealed unto thee, and that which was revealed before thee, especially the diligent in prayer and those who pay the poor-due, the believers in Allah and the Last Day. Upon these We shall bestow immense reward.


To deceive it to conceal the truth to cause to accept as true or valid what is false or invalid... but the truth here is written for all to see clear as day for those who are lucid to reflect and search instead of just accept!

The true deception falls on St. Paul and Athanasius the champion of Trinity for this state of modern Christianity!

peace!

Thanks for giving me this knowledge, Jazakallah!!!!!:thumbs_up

 

[Grace Seeker]

how can we interpret the word "appear" literally? I have no clue what happened that time, but I feel its not worth exploring what "appear" means.

From what Purest Ambrosia provided: "the resemblance of `Isa was cast over that man ".

 

[جوري]

One more time.

As I understand the Muslim version of the event:

1) Jesus does not die, but someone else dies in his place.

2) Allah makes this person appear to be Jesus to everyone who witnesses the crucifixion.

3) If those people believe their eyes (and none but the 12 knew any different), they will believe something that is not true (Jesus died on the cross) to be true.

4) Allah is the one who created the scenario whereby these people would believe a falsehood was the truth.

These are the facts of the situation as I understand it to have taken place according to the teachings of Islam. Do I have the facts summarized correctly?

Just to sum it up all for you correctly! Jesus NEVER asked for anyone to spread the good word! In fact he came with his message just for (bani Israel)... They didn't want him... just like they didn't want those before him..during his time people were divided in opinion. St. Paul took it upon his person to spread falsehood. Islam came for all of mankind, not just Bani Israel. To give the criterion for all of man kind. Jesus (PBUH) is to come back firstly as a sign of the end of time. 2nd to abrogate that which the Christians of now a days are doing in the way of worshipping falsehood! 3rdly to fulfill that which he didn't during his time and lastly to die here on earth such as the lot of man! I hope that clarifies things for you?

 

[Keltoi]

I find the concept confusing too. Why would God resort to deception? Perhaps it is simply another of those differences in the way in which Muslims and Christians percieve God. Hopefully another Muslim member can add to the discussion and bring a different perspective to help in understanding the issue.

 

[Keltoi]

Just to sum it up all for you correctly! Jesus NEVER asked for anyone to spread the good word! In fact he came with his message just for (bani Israel)... They didn't want him... just like they didn't want those before him..during his time people were divided in opinion. St. Paul took it upon his person to spread falsehood. Islam came for all of mankind, not just Bani Israel. To give the criterion for all of man kind. Jesus (PBUH) is to come back firstly as a sign of the end of time. 2nd to abrogate that which the Christians of now a days are doing in the way of worshipping falsehood! 3rdly to fulfill that which he didn't during his time and lastly to die here on earth such as the lot of man! I hope that clarifies things for you?

With all due respect...that doesn't even address the issue we are referring to. We understand that Islam doesn't accept the divinity of Jesus Christ, but that isn't the issue here.

 

[جوري]

I love how you all grab that twig to hang on to to deflect from all the other absurdities of G-D foresaking his son... but, it is all right!

Why does the above relate? It is really simple. Jesus came for Bani Israel, & Bani Israel plotted against him... G-D in fact kept his word and saved not foresaken him Jesus PBUH. If G-D were to deceive he would in fact have foresaken him; and wouldn't have sent the seal of the prophet with the criterion and a message for all of mankind!
peace!

 

[Grace Seeker]

Just to sum it up all for you correctly! Jesus NEVER asked for anyone to spread the good word! In fact he came with his message just for (bani Israel)... They didn't want him... just like they didn't want those before him..during his time people were divided in opinion. St. Paul took it upon his person to spread falsehood. Islam came for all of mankind, not just Bani Israel. To give the criterion for all of man kind. Jesus (PBUH) is to come back firstly as a sign of the end of time. 2nd to abrogate that which the Christians of now a days are doing in the way of worshipping falsehood! 3rdly to fulfill that which he didn't during his time and lastly to die here on earth such as the lot of man! I hope that clarifies things for you?

Why are you SHOUTING!?

I've tried to simply ascertain if I understood the Islamic beliefs regarding events that Christians know as the Crucifixion. Rather than answer what I thought was a simply YES of NO question, you've given me all sorts of other rhetoric, that I don't see as having any relevance or connection to the question at hand. I've not spoken of people spreading a "good word". I've not asked about why Jesus came? I've not asked about Jesus' return. I've not even mentioned St. Paul, as he wasn't ever associated with the Crucifixion story according to Christian texts about it. Unless there is some connection I am unaware of in the Qu'ran between Paul and Jesus' "supposed" Crucifixion I can't figure out why you would even mention him. I haven't.

To answer your last question: "I hope that clarifies things for you?" Not even close. Answering my actual question would, however. Do I understand the events of Jesus' "supposed" Crucifixion correctly as believed from the Muslim perspective?

I understand that you don't really believe that Jesus was crucified.
I understand that you believe that someone else was crucified in Jesus' place.
I understand that you believe that Allah made it appear to those who witnessed this crucifixion that it looked like they were crucifying Jesus, even though they really weren't.

Do I understand correctly?

(It's a YES or NO question. Essays on other topics are not helpful at this time. If you feel a need to add other information, please help me to see the connection, because I don't yet. It just seems like someone ranging off to other incidentals that they are concerned about, but leaving me without an answer to my original question.)

 

[جوري]

Why are you SHOUTING!?

I've tried to simply ascertain if I understood the Islamic beliefs regarding events that Christians know as the Crucifixion. Rather than answer what I thought was a simply YES of NO question, you've given me all sorts of other rhetoric, that I don't see as having any relevance or connection to the question at hand. I've not spoken of people spreading a "good word". I've not asked about why Jesus came? I've not asked about Jesus' return. I've not even mentioned St. Paul, as he wasn't ever associated with the Crucifixion story according to Christian texts about it. Unless there is some connection I am unaware of in the Qu'ran between Paul and Jesus' "supposed" Crucifixion I can't figure out why you would even mention him. I haven't.

To answer your last question: "I hope that clarifies things for you?" Not even close. Answering my actual question would, however. Do I understand the events of Jesus' "supposed" Crucifixion correctly as believed from the Muslim perspective?

I understand that you don't really believe that Jesus was crucified.
I understand that you believe that someone else was crucified in Jesus' place.
I understand that you believe that Allah made it appear to those who witnessed this crucifixion that it looked like they were crucifying Jesus, even though they really weren't.

Do I understand correctly?

(It's a YES or NO question. Essays on other topics are not helpful at this time. If you feel a need to add other information, please help me to see the connection, because I don't yet. It just seems like someone ranging off to other incidentals that they are concerned about, but leaving me without an answer to my original question.)

"Shouting" ? I didn't hear a thing! Simply found your repeated rhetoric a little on the dense side!
why can't you infer what is plain for you to see? hammering the same nail in each and every one of your posts as if you had stumbled upon Pandora's box and about to unleash-- alas hope; that G-D according to Muslims is but a deceiver! We answer you from the left you don't like it.. from the right you don't like it.
Did G-D Deceive...... NO!.... Plain and simple... that is what you conceive in your own mind to be true! To deceive would have been to forsake your messenger on the cross ...not save him from those plotting against him!If you don't want a detailed answer then I suggest you not partake in this subject and just skip it all together!

 

[Keltoi]

"Shouting" ? I didn't hear a thing! Simply found your repeated rhetoric a little on the dense side!
why can't you infer what is plain for you to see? hammering the same nail in each and every one of your posts as if you had stumbled upon Pandora's box and about to unleash-- alas hope; that G-D according to Muslims is but a deceiver! We answer you from the left you don't like it.. from the right you don't like it.
Did G-D Deceive...... NO!.... Plain and simple... that is what you conceive in your own mind to be true! To deceive would have been to forsake your messenger on the cross ...not save him from those plotting against him!If you don't want a detailed answer then I suggest you not partake in this subject and just skip it all together!

That doesn't answer the question, not even with the large font. My question, and what I'm attempting to understand, is whether the Quran states that God used deception to "stop" Christ from being crucified. It is a yes or no question. It isn't an "attack", it is an honest question with the intent of understanding the stance of the Quran on the subject. The reason your "answer" isn't sufficient is because of the passage about God covering the face of Jesus...something to that effect, and that would seem like an obvious play at deception.

 

[جوري]

That doesn't answer the question, not even with the large font. My question, and what I'm attempting to understand, is whether the Quran states that God used deception to "stop" Christ from being crucified. It is a yes or no question. It isn't an "attack", it is an honest question with the intent of understanding the stance of the Quran on the subject.

lol
I'll quote AGAIN the above "Did G-D Deceive...... NO"
Does it say he deceived in the Quran. Again NO... No and one more time NO!from where I am standing you are the ones offended trying to wash it down with repeat posts!...
lastly, I don't feel attacked, I feel frustrated, this isn't brain surgery.. I am not so sure what is difficult to comprehend in NO?!

 

[Keltoi]

lol
I'll quote AGAIN the above "Did G-D Deceive...... NO"
Does it say he deceived in the Quran. Again NO... No and one more time NO!from where I am standing you are the ones offended trying to wash it down with repeat posts!...
lastly, I don't feel attacked, I feel frustrated, this isn't brain surgery.. I am not so sure what is difficult to comprehend in NO?!

No reason to be defensive. What about the passage referring to God making another's face appear to be that of Jesus?

 

[جوري]

No reason to be defensive. What about the passage referring to God making another's face appear to be that of Jesus?

What does that mean to you? From where we stand G-D saved Jesus against those plotting against him (Didn't foresake). From where you are standing it is an act of deception. You are welcome to believe the version that appeals to you most!