This is Love- Marriage is where the story begins, not where it ends.

[Scimitar]

It is sad to see that whole Islamic discussion of "love and marriage" ignores the impact neurons, physiology, genes and hormones play in this process. We do not ignore these physical things when we study disease, but why do we ignore these things when we talk about love and marriage. There are biologically determined and biologically driven desires, with plethora of other enviornmental factors acting on them, which determine which woman falls for a man and what she looks for in him and what he says that'd turn her off and all the 'mind games/tests" he'd have to pass before they can be intimate and vice versa. And all of this does not follow any "logic." It's the way it is.

Discussion of "love" and "marriage" without reference to some biological and psychological principles is futile.

I see what you are trying to say, and yes, there are other factors that we don't take into consideration (as you mentioned above) but to say that discussing love and marriage without some biological and psychological principles is futile, is a bit strong...

...If I may? in the same way I can say that the media affects our view of love, relationships and marriage so we must consider how much the media affects us in the subject of trust, relationships, love and marriage - and therefore, discussing these subjects without factoring in the media, is futile... ??? No. It isn't. And I say this because, when we approach a topic for discussion, there has to be a starting point, a basis for discussion. Debates / discussions start from the most basic understanding of the most common factors that affect the topic, and then we gradually move on to explore other possibilities which relate back to the core of the topic as another "branch to the tree" which is the main topic. In this way, we can factor in other less considered elements/influences, such as the impact which neurons, physiology, genes and hormones play in this process. But if we happen to miss that avenue of discussion, it doesn't make the discussion futile bro CP If anything, it can open other alternative considerations... as long as the debate / discussion sees progress, rather than regress, it's a success and not a futility

Scimi.

 

[CosmicPathos]

I've read your posts with lotsa interest. The unmarried ones are pretty scared and full of all kinds of clichés written here and there. The fact is that we never fully know a person even if we know her/him for years and years. Life has that talent to unveil our different shades of personality throughout the various stages of our existence. There are couples who fell in love and married and live a very happy marital life, others who started a romantic relationship that faded away after their marriage. We all know perfect strangers who succeeded to build that Mawaddah that characterizes succesful marriages. Unfortunately, there are too many married people who are trapped in a spree of misunderstanding, difference and pain.

We are all different. There is no predifinite rule. It all depends on what Allah has written for us and our ability to cope with marital adversity.

This....

 

[~Zaria~]

Assalamu-alaikum all,

MashaAllah sis cosmic - you have explained it excellently.

I think the problem we have in understanding 'Love for the sake/ pleasure of Allah' stems from a westernised/ Hollywood-corrupted idea of HOW marriage is meant to occur in Islam.

Again, I will ask:
HOW does the possibillty for an intense, passionate, romance-charged love even exist.....if marriage occured after just 1 or 2 meetings between the individuals (with the girls wali present).....and then leaving your decision to guidance of Allah (subhanawataála)?

In other words - marriage in the above manner is one were both parties are saying:

- I do not know you now.....but I wish to get to know you on every possible level - and develop my love for you, within a marriage.

- I wish to love you.....because you are my ordained spouse.....a gift from Allah to me, in completing half my deen, being my supporter, my comfort through good and bad times, etc.

- And I wish to love you......seeking Allahs pleasure in the process

--> i.e. I will honour you as a husband/ wife - not only as a duty/ love for you.....but to earn Allahs pleasure.
--> My generosity and patience towards you, is not only out of duty/ love......but to earn Allahs pleasure.
--> My fidelity that I show within this marriage is not only out of duty/ love......but because this will be displeasing to Allah.

The love that develops between two people in this manner - is a more understanding, deeper and mature type of love, vs. the IDEA of what love is meant to be.
An idea that has resulted from societal conditioning.

This does not mean that romance can not develop within the marriage......insha Allah, it does.
Nor is it a guarantee against having problems.

Marriages fail due to many reasons.

And the story of Mughith and Barirah, as well as others, indicate that one is not expected to live a life of discontent/ misery if there exists a valid reason for divorce.

However: How blessed is the marriage that is undertaken - placing Allah Taala central to everything - including our love for our spouse......


:wa:

 

[~Zaria~]

#I cant seem to access page 3 of this thread via explorer/ firefox#

Just wanted to add:

If someone told me a few years ago, that the above sentiments would belong to me......I would have been in disbelief.

The fact is, that I was, and still am - a romantic at heart......secretly hoping for my own fairytale......insha Allah.

Time and the mercy of Allah (subhanawataála) has made me realise that I need to remove my rose-tinted glasses and understand life through Islam.

And that the type of fairy-tale that I was (and many of us are still) looking for, belongs in Hollywood.

My perceived fairytale has changed......its still a beautiful story - but one that is more realistic, ful-filling.....and with a far bigger purpose (then just the happily-ever-after fantasy).

Allah (subhanawatála) knows best.

 

[MysticSoumeya]

Awwwwwwwww sister Zaria, may Allah grant you all what you're dreaming of.

To complete what you've just written, many people think that longevity is a sign of success. Oh, there is an uncalculated number of people who are miserable in their couple. I know many people who accept passively the stenuous weight of routine on them while others grew in maturity through time and adversity. As muslims, we have mon responsibility thant that of average parents. We have to be examplary to introduce our children to life and give them an insight of family life.

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

what exactly is your point? in one breath I am reading "victim is expected to stay in marriage" and in another breath I am reading women are not expected to stay with their husbands?

For the record, divorce is still looked down upon. I don't know when it became fashionable, didn't even realise divorce was a fashion.

Scimi

There is a way of addressing a person, either you address in polite manner or you do one. I don’t care how you or your missus dominates this forum, politeness is common decency. You are reading what you want to read. Trying to make me look stupid?

As for your last statement, obviously I meant societal pressure; there isn’t societal pressure for people to stay in a marriage like there were for our parents. But what do I know? You and your missus are always right.

 

[Muezzin]

Please limit the discussion to the topic and not individual members. Thank you.

 

[TrueStranger]

They did not have a love hate relationship, this hadith is being used out of context.

That is rather easily said than proven. The Prophet (PBUH) used the words hate & love. Mughith’s Love for Barira, and Barira’s hate for Mughith. If you like it I would quote the Prophet (PBUH) once again, ‘O Abbas! Are you not astonished at the love of Mughith for Barira and the hatred of Barira for Mughith? You could overlook this statement and dismiss it’s description of Mughith and Barira’s relationship as viewed by the Prophet (PBUH), but accusing someone of using the hadith out of context without any valid or significant evidence is uncalled for.

You have also overlooked the fact that Mughith himself was forced into the marriage, and his love for his wife did not deteriorate after her social status has alleviated. Barira on the other hand, decided to nullify her marriage and leave the father of her child, even after the Prophet (PBUH) advised her to return to her husband. Here you are arguing for people to make sacrifices for their marriages for the sake of Allah, yet, you appear to justify and accept Barira’s choice to demand a divorce based on ever-changing social status.

Lust and love are indeed confused and we also have the problem of attachments to dunya, a spouse is part of this dunya at the end of the day. Emotions are TOOLS, they are MEANS to and end but are not the end themselves.

Again, the article mentions two “loves”, one that is a combination of some extreme characteristics of lust and normal aspects of love, and another that purely exists for the sake of Allah. The word lust is never mentioned in the article, but rather the first love mentioned is grossly depicted as lust. I have to disagree when you say that a spouse is at end part of this dunya, especially, when Islam encourages us to marry those who are religious so that we could work together and save ourselves and our families from the hell-fire (A matter of the Hereafter). A spouse is not exclusively restricted to being part of this dunya for they play a major role in the hereafter as well. We cannot view everything on this world as tools meant to be exploited to achieve the end. The end is ultimately to Allah, who will Judge between His slaves.

We will not enter Paradise based solely on any “MEANS” of our own, but because of the Mercy of Allah. However, these “worldly tools”, are part of the equation on Judgment day. It’s our love, admiration, respect, and fear (Emotions) of God that will bring us closer to Allah. And how many will enter Paradise because of their love of Allah, their mercy to Mankind, or their respect for their parents (Emotions)?

In the article, the author says "That’s where the building starts: the building of a life, the building of your character, the building of sabr, patience, perseverance, and sacrifice. The building of selflessness. The building of love.And the building of your path back to Him."

Marriage is one of the experiences of life that could teach love, patience, selflessness, perseverance, and patience. It's an experience that harbors both positive and negative emotions, hence the reason God has NOT made Divorce haraam altogether. Marriage, just like divorce is but an “experience”, and like each experience in life we learn more about ourselves and increase or decrease some of our principles in life. To label marriage as the experience which encompasses all these characteristics and learned virtues is contradictory to how the world functions.

How exactly does this happen? The building of love? The building of your path back to him? Well those of us who have been married before can attest to the amount of sacrifice one makes in a marriage. You forsake SO MUCH in a marriage. The problem is when the forsaking happens for the other person INSTEAD OF ALLAH. Which was one of the main points of the article, and why I shared it. That is where we bring up the subject of unrealistic expectations, disappointments, chasing after a wordly perfection that does not exist etc which all lead to divorce

Sister, in order for someone to “forsake” something, they would have to leave behind something that is/was dear/valued to him or her. For example people give up their wealth, lives, and children for the Sake of Allah. They have Forsaken something dear to them FOR the Sake of Allah, and they ask nothing of anyone else but Allah. As for marriage?

What exactly has one forsaken when they love for the “Sake” of Allah? One is able to complete half their deen, One receives the love, care, respect, and protection of another human being. One is bestow with children by the Grace of Allah. You allocate/or sacrifice your resources, time, and energy ONLY to gain something at the same time. Both spouses make sacrifices in marriage to build a better functioning relationship, and contribute to each other (families) happiness. They have forsaken nothing by Singlehood (less desired than marriage) for Marriage (More valued socially and religiously). You have actually gained more than you have supposedly “forsaken”.

As I have mentioned before, unless one has forsaken their happiness, their family, their own personal goals, or their career/wealth for loving someone for the Sake of Allah, then they cannot simply attest that they have forsaken "SO MUCH”.

One does not require unrealistic expectations or worldly perfections that do not exist to get a divorce.We already know that a man will divorce a disobeying wife, and a wife will demand a divorce from a man that neither protects her nor provides for her. Marriage is but an experience filled with religious/worldly/personal EXPECTATIONS. One can not build the pillars of marriage solely on religious expectations, and ignore worldly and personal expectations, and vice versa. Marriage requires a balanced amount of give and take between these various forms of expectations between the spouses. Divorce services as a purpose when spouses can no longer balance out or acknowledge the existence of different forms of expectations.

 

[~Zaria~]

# cant access page 4 of this thread either : ( #

^ AMEEN sis MysticSoumeya : )

 

[cOsMiCiNtUiTiOn]

@ True Stranger,

What exactly are you trying to argue, because it seems you are nit picking at this point. Sister Zaria already made excellent points when it comes to Barira and Mughith, which you didn't seem to acknowledge...

Why did Mughith love Barirah so?

Was it her beauty?
Her piety?
Or that he did not wish to break a marriage?
And why did Barirah reject the love of Mughith?
His character?
Appearance?
Her love for another?

These questions are important to reflect upon. We don't know how Mughith was to Barira. Why did barira come to Aisha' (ra)for help in the first place?

Did you read back at the previous replies and watched the couple of clips provided in this thread regarding the word Love and linguistics? You do realize that the translation we are using of this hadith say "love and hate", and it is not like the love and hate the english language depicts. When I said it was being used out of context it was based on all of your posts on this thread. For example:

I would not be wrong to say Mughith was head over heels for Barriah. I'm truly amazed at people who think that the correct "love" that should exist in a marriage is one which requires a spouse to love their partner for the Sake of Allah.

^^that is why it is easy for me to say what i did ukhti, Because clearly you are only seeing based on the mainstream idea of love, which the Author of the article, Zaria, Scimi and Myself have mentioned and tried to explain in different ways. That s the purpose of this thread, to help others abandon and look beyond this warped idea of love. Nobody here is saying love doesn't exist or that husband and wife cannot love each other, if you take time to read through my posts, and not skim to find faults (as it appears you are doing), you will see that I clearly acknowledge that.

Another reason why I said it was out of context is because this speaks of the subject of slavery which is vital to understand if this story is to be used as an example. Do you understand what slavery in Islam is all about? Please explain. I would like to read your take on it and perhaps that way I can get a better understanding of where you are coming from ukhti Becauseif you don't understand (or if I'm missing understanding myself) then we are just wasting our breaths here and we will keep going back and forth on this story

I did NOT overlook that Mughith was heartbroken or upset over this. I admit i didn't mention that he may have been forced as well and that was because I was focusing on Barira's hatred towards him. You must understand that men and women do not love in the same way (I'm sure brothers reading this can attest). If she was good to him, obeyed him, served him and bore his child, of course he loved her. She was a good wife to him, however as I stated before, we do not know how Mughith was to her and why she wanted out to begin with. Read the entire story from top to bottom before you comment any further, and please, lets start a new thread on this story because it's sending this thread in a direction that doesn't really help the initial intention.

Marriage is one of the experiences of life that could teach love, patience, selflessness, perseverance, and patience. It's an experience that harbors both positive and negative emotions, hence the reason God has NOT made Divorce haraam altogether. Marriage, just like divorce is but an “experience”, and like each experience in life we learn more about ourselves and increase or decrease some of our principles in life. To label marriage as the experience which encompasses all these characteristics and learned virtues is contradictory to how the world functions.

I agree with most of this actually, however, I said Marriage is an experience. Not THE experience or the ONLY experience. Every experience in our lives is an oppottunity to build character. Marriage is the main one however, because it is one where male and female unite. Husband and wife complete each other.

Can you explain the law of duality and how it works?

Sister, in order for someone to “forsake” something, they would have to leave behind something that is/was dear/valued to him or her. For example people give up their wealth, lives, and children for the Sake of Allah. They have Forsaken something dear to them FOR the Sake of Allah, and they ask nothing of anyone else but Allah.

In the dictionary, the word forsake has this meaning:
for·sake (fôr-sk, fr-)
tr.v. for·sook (-sk), for·sak·en (-skn), for·sak·ing, for·sakes
1. To give up (something formerly held dear); renounce: forsook liquor.
2. To leave altogether; abandon: forsook Hollywood and returned to the legitimate stage.
forsake [fəˈseɪk]
vb -sakes, -saking, -sook [-ˈsʊk] -saken [-ˈseɪkən] (tr)
1. to abandon
2. to give up (something valued or enjoyed)

One does not have to forsake a child or their wealth or something so big in order for it to be something that one forsakes. Choosing to stay silent in a monet when we want to say something, is to forsake something valued to us, to dicipline ourselves. If a wife or husband chooses to stay quiet instead of arguing with their spouse, he/she is forsaking that for the sake of Allah. Same when a wife gets up early in the monring before everyone in the house to make something for everyone to eat by the time they wake, when she would rather get an hour more of sleep, that is to forsake a comfort. We could do them for each other yes, but going back to what I was saying initially, man is ungrateful, so why do it for a human, do it for Allah and surely you will be rewarded. Its these little things that up quite a bit The list is to large to begin here, and before I take time to do something like that, I would like to ask a personal question.

Have you ever been married? I ask because you made some good points about what one gains in a marriage, however, the way you say it leads me to believe that you haven't experienced the actual work in progress. If you are married and it's that easy for you then Alhamdullilah! May Allah continue to make your marriage easy. Ameen.

Although the way you wrote out the gains one gets with marriage is really nice, and sounds quite lovely. In my personal experience, and that of others around me who have had struggles in this area, that isn't reality, these things are not gained instantly by signing a nikah. It's a life long journey, together of sacrifices for the sake of Allah to gain all those wonderful things. When you sacrifice for the sake of Allah, do you not think he will give you more good in return? That's what it's all about. When you love for HIS sake and sacrifice for HIS sake, you gain reward, reward that no human can every give.

- cOsMiC

 

[cOsMiCiNtUiTiOn]

It is sad to see that whole Islamic discussion of "love and marriage" ignores the impact neurons, physiology, genes and hormones play in this process. We do not ignore these physical things when we study disease, but why do we ignore these things when we talk about love and marriage. There are biologically determined and biologically driven desires, with plethora of other enviornmental factors acting on them, which determine which woman falls for a man and what she looks for in him and what he says that'd turn her off and all the 'mind games/tests" he'd have to pass before they can be intimate and vice versa. And all of this does not follow any "logic." It's the way it is.

Discussion of "love" and "marriage" without reference to some biological and psychological principles is futile.

I think adding this subject in this thread could be beneficial, but could you elaborate a bit in what you want to address exactly? I get the idea, but would prefer some specifics so we can discuss further insha Allah

- cOsMiC

 

[Flame of Hope]

I feel as though I should never have participated in this thread. +o(

 

[Silent Peace]

Sis cosmic,
Haters gonna hate, looks like some people got butthurt by your posts.

 

[Paprika]

Ai, why do we have to love or be loved, why can't we just live life, no complications, be good to your spouse and all is cool. Women overdo this whole love thing. Love is overrated.


Love is kindness. Nothing more, nothing less. Take it from the Paprika.

I am not from Pakistan.