Those Who Convert From Islam

[Eliphaz]

I see no reason why God could not take on human nature if He so willed, it's fully consistent with His omnipotence to do such a thing, so I don't see the difficulty. On the other hand, I don't see how a well informed Christian could ever come to accept that Jesus was never crucified. Muhammad's rejection of the crucifixion and his seeming not knowing of its significance, is one of the biggest reasons why I personally don't accept his prophethood. To put it in perspective, it would be like me saying the whole story of Muhammad's hijra to Yathrib was a myth created by later Muslims.

I wouldn't say Muslims talk down the significance of the crucifixion. But in our belief there is no more significance to the crucifixion and Jesus being lifted up to Heaven than, say, the pagans burning Abraham in the fire and him not getting burned, (except that Jesus will be returning as the Messiah). Both are miracles and Muslims do not deny this. The Christians have turned the crucifixion into a mechanism for God's forgiveness when, in your own words, consistent with the omnipotence of God, surely He should not need such a 'mechanism' to forgive?

 

[Sojourn]

Peace Omar,

I wouldn't say Muslims talk down the significance of the crucifixion.

The crucifixion and resurrection are integral to Christianity. The Quran doesn't rebuke Christians for believing in the redemption, it doesn't rebuke them for believing in the resurrection. The one time the Quran denies the crucifixion is in response to Jews who were boasting that they killed him. It's strange to me, as an outside reader, that the Quran would not address the very essence of the Christian message.

The Christians have turned the crucifixion into a mechanism for God's forgiveness

Before I reverted to Christianity one of the most powerful pieces of evidence for the crucifixion and redemption were the Old Testament prophecies of the suffering Messiah. It showed me that suffering and death were something that must befall Him, and that this would somehow cleanse us of our sins.

"But he was wounded for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his stripes we are healed."
Isaiah 53:5

Clearly, the earl Christians did not add this into the book of Isaiah, it was always there and Christ fulfilled it. So again, I can't stress how significant it is that the Quran rejects the crucifixion, and does not addres the imprortance behind it.

when, in your own words, consistent with the omnipotence of God, surely He should not need such a 'mechanism' to forgive?

We don't say He *needed* to suffer. God could have snapped his fingers, so to speak, and we would have been restored. But it is consistent with justice, and we know God loves what is right, that man's sin be somehow satisfied for and overturned. The difficulty is that Adam and Eve enjoyed a relationship with God that was a gift, a nearness that could not be earned. Since their transgression offended the infinite and perfect God, what deed could be done to satisfy for the sin? The fact is no work of man, which is finite and imperfect, could ever appease the perfect and majestic God. It would really take a God-man to offer an act of atonemen on behalf of man, and make that act infinite and perfect, so as to satisfy for sin and redeem mankind. What's interesting is that the theologians recognized that the God-man did not have suffer, He could have simply incarnated and then ascended back into heaven, and this alone would have sufficed. One tear from the Infant Christ could redeemded mankind an infinite amount of times over. So what really happened here, is that the God-man took an extra step, a step that went so far that He suffered a horrible death for our sake. Now if you believe God to be a Master and us His slaves, it will be very difficult for you to accept such a thing, because why would a Master suffer for his slaves? But Christians believe God is not merely loving, but that He *is* Love, and that His love for each and everyone us is incomprehensible. It is precisely this act of love that motived that early Martyrs to undergoe their grewling deaths, even young Christian girls were willing be torn to pieces by lions for the sake of Christ. Only God could inspire such zeal, and in the words of the Apostle John, we love God because God loved us first.


Pax,
Sojourn

 

[ardianto]

From what i've seen, if a person left Islam and tell about it to the whole world (plus talking bad thing about Islam)... he/she will become a celebrity and protected by western nations...

But Indonesians who left Islam never become celebrities but still in their poverty.
Usually, if Indonesians left Islam that because they live in poverty. Then came non-muslims who offered them instant noodles, sugars, or jobs in non-skilled posts if they agree to leave Islam.

And in opposite side. We can't say Indonesians non-muslims who convert to Islam become celebrities, because .......... they are celebrities. Some of famous Indonesian celebrities are mualaf (person who convert to Islam).

Difference between Indonesian who left Islam and came to Islam is :
- Indonesians who left Islam usually poor and non/low educated people.
- Indonesians who came to Islam usually rich (at least not poor) and educated people.