[Hamayun]

Brothers and Sisters,

I am on a bodybuilding forum and it is full of Atheists making threads about Islam and spreading misconceptions.

There is a thread about the Seven Heavens at the moment and it seems there aren't any Muslims on the forum with enough knowledge. I don't know enough to get involved.

If the Moderators allow me I can post a link to the thread.

Here is what was said in the thread:

Do you not see how God has created the seven heavens
one above the other,
and made the moon a light in their midst,
and made the sun as a lamp? (71:15-16)
In this verse, lets assume seven heavens = 7 universes, okay done.
Now here's more
We have indeed adorned the lower heaven with the beauty of the stars. (37:6)
He Who created the seven heavens, one above the other ...
And We have adorned the lowest heaven with lamps ... (67:3,5)
And He completed them seven heavens in two days
and inspired in each heaven its command;
and We adorned the lower heaven with lamps,
and rendered it guarded... (41:12)

So clearly, the lowest heaven is the one with stars and quite obviously... the ONLY heaven with stars. If these heavens are really universes, I think I read you mentioned this before ? Then the lowest heaven is our universe.
Now lets look at this again:
Do you not see how God has created the seven heavens
one above the other,
and made the moon a light in their midst,
and made the sun as a lamp? (71:15-16)
The attention is directed towards the moon and the sun, meaning that logically the intention of the verse was to signifiy the importance of the moon and the sun in the heaven (singular, not plural), or rather universe. But we all know that the relative size of the sun and sheer numbers of stars, makes the sun absolutely insignificant.
The moon is significant, however it is significant to the earth only, and not to this heaven/universe or anywhere else.
In the large scheme of things, it seems logically useless to mention ANYTHING in this entire solar system, when discussing the universe or "universes."
However looking at the verse again...
Do you not see how God has created the seven heavens
one above the other,
and made the moon a light in their midst,
and made the sun as a lamp? (71:15-16)
So this verse is clearly putting emphasis on the seven heavens as a whole, 7 universes if you will, but we all know how big ONE of those universes is.

Click on pics for bigger view

Our solar system ^ ^ , the moon has a insignificant size even in this alone, and insignifant role as well.

The milky way galaxy ^ ^. Our solar system is essentially just one light (dot) in all of that, overall our solar system is insignificant in our galaxy alone (making the moon even less significant, and the sun as well). And our galaxy is just a tiny fraction of the universe.

Just a section of our universe ^ ^ Our galaxy, as big as it is, has size equal to one of those lights, again, our galaxy is useless to the universe as a whole.

One more time:
Do you not see how God has created the seven heavens
one above the other,
and made the moon a light in their midst,
and made the sun as a lamp? (71:15-16)
Looking at the other side now:
The underlined parts of the verse, if something is LAYERED, and something is in the MIDST, the moon must be in between them if anything really... so that means everything is layered in the sky and the moon has a significant size and its in between those layers, and if something is in the MIDST, then its somewhere in the middle.
If something is in the middle... then its (moon's) distance is about 40-60% of the total distance of which there is to go. If you go 100% of the way, then you reach the end, and since the verse's reference is to 7 layers and a "middle", then once you complete the 100%, you're at the end, thus meaning you're at the end of the 7 layers or the universe, whichever the case may be, or the reference may be...
So either the moon is in the middle of something, or the sun and moon have a significant role in the universe, because they are discussed when referring to the universe, or rather.. ALL universes
Both of which are scientifically inaccurate.

 

[CosmicPathos]

So he puts the word in Quran's mouth that the Sun and the moon are significant and then he refutes that they are scientifically insignificant? That is called a Straw-man Argument.

Sometimes, when I find that these ex-Muslims (now atheists) come to conclusions on certain scientific inaccuracies of the Quran by using translations, while the Arabic word means something else, I get this big wide smirk on my face. I see an arrogant making big claims about Quran's inaccuracy while the Arabic word actually means something else .... but I also feel his loss but again that is what their hands have earned.

I'll let the more knowledgeable brothers "refute" this supposed inaccuracy.

 

[AlHoda]

Allah (swt) created all seven heavens, human beings only see the first, we human beings do not have knowledge of what these other 6 heavens include, and Allah knows best.
Please keep in mind that I am speaking from a very ignorant source.
:wa:

 

[جوري]

check through archives here:

http://www.load-islam.com/wel_islam.php?topic_id=2

and

http://www.load-islam.com/artical_det.php?artical_id=414&section=wel_islam&subsection=Misconceptions

All this stuff has been refuted before that one can't even bring herself to be interested to look at this again. ... I appreciate the stage you are in akhi.. but who do they want to prove the Quran false to? themselves or to Muslims?
The Muslims know better while they are already so far astray that I have no idea why they bother while away their life on such folly?

 

[جوري]

an addendum to the above...
do they want to create a problem where none exists? The claims above are so infantile.. exactly what is his reservation on the verses

71- 15 "Do you not see how God has created seven heavens in full harmony with one another,8 16 and has set up within them the moon as a light [reflected], and set up the sun as a [radiant] lamp?9 17 "And God has caused you to grow out of the earth in [gradual] growth;10 and thereafter He will return you to it [in death]:
8 Cf.67:3 and the corresponding note [2]. 9 See 10:5, where the sun is described as "a [source of] radiant light" (diya') and the moon as "light [reflected]" (nur); both these interpolations are explained in note [10] on 10:5.

which part is exactly 'scientifically inaccurate'?

 

[Chuck]

Ask them to come here.

 

[Hugo]

an addendum to the above... do they want to create a problem where none exists? The claims above are so infantile.. exactly what is his reservation on the verses

71-15 "Do you not see how God has created seven heavens in full harmony with one another,8
16 and has set up within them the moon as a light [reflected], and set up the sun as a [radiant] lamp?9 17 "And God has caused you to grow out of the earth in [gradual] growth;10 and thereafter He will return you to it [in death]:
8 Cf.67:3 and the corresponding note [2]. 9 See 10:5, where the sun is described as "a [source of] radiant light" (diya') and the moon as "light [reflected]" (nur); both these interpolations are explained in note [10] on 10:5.

which part is exactly 'scientifically inaccurate'?

It is unclear from the post as the quotations are often incomplete but perhaps what is needed here is for someone to explain what these 7 heavens mean?

 

[جوري]

It is unclear from the post as the quotations are often incomplete but perhaps what is needed here is for someone to explain what these 7 heavens mean?

'
Name of Questioner

Mario - Italy​

Title

Concept of Seven Skies in Islam​

Question

What is the concept of seven skies in Islam? Where does the first one start?​

Date

28/Oct/2003​

Topic

The Unseen​

Answer​

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Dear questioner, thank you very much for having confidence in us, and we hope our efforts, which are purely for Allah's Sake, meet your expectations.

First of all, we would like to stress that Allah Almighty is the Sole Creator of the universe including the heavens and the earth. Along the course of centuries, man has pondered over the universe and tried to discover its hidden secrets. Many concepts about the cosmos developed but they were subject to change later on.

Responding to your question, Dr. Muzammil H. Siddiqi, former President of the Islamic Society of North America and Director of the Islamic Society of Orange County, Garden Grove, California, states the following:

“Seven skies are mentioned in the Qur’an in many places. It is interesting that the word “saba` samawat” also occurs seven times in the Qur’an. (See Al-Baqarah 2:29; Al-Israa’ 17:44; Al-Mu’minun 23:86; Fussilat 41:12; At-Talaq 65:12; Al-Mulk 67:3; Nuh 71:15.) Only Allah knows the real nature of these seven skies. Maulana Mawdudi in his tafseer (explanation) of the Qur’an says:

“It is difficult to explain precisely what is meant by the ‘seven heavens.’

In all ages, man has tried, with the help of observation and speculation to conceptualize the ‘heavens’, i.e., that which lies beyond and above the earth. As we know, the concepts that have thus developed have constantly changed. Hence, it would be improper to tie the meaning of these words of the Qur’an to any one of these numerous concepts.

What might be broadly inferred from this statement is that either Allah has divided the universe beyond earth into seven distinct spheres, or that this earth is located in that part of the universe which consists of seven different spheres.”

(Towards Understanding the Qur’an, translated by Zafar Ishaq Ansari, vol. 1, p. 58, note no. 34.)

From the Hadith (especially the hadiths concerning Al-Mi`raj) we learn that the first heaven is the one that is closest to the earth. So the order begins from the earth and the highest heaven is the seventh heaven.”

Source: www.pakistanlink.net

Finally, we recommend you to track the contents of the following URL in your browser:

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~azma/SevenHeavens.htm

If you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to write back!

May Allah guide you to the straight path, and guide you to that which pleases Him, Amen.

​

Allah Almighty knows best.

​

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/...h-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503547562

 

[Hamayun]

Jazakallah Sister Skye and everyone else for posting the clarifications.

Thank you for taking the time to write the responses. I am very grateful.

May Allah reward you for your efforts and kindness.

 

[جوري]

May Allah swt reward you for caring so much..

 

[Hugo]

Answer​

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.[/B] Dear questioner, thank you very much for having confidence in us, and we hope our efforts, which are purely for Allah's Sake, meet your expectations.

First of all, we would like to stress that Allah Almighty is the Sole Creator of the universe including the heavens and the earth. Along the course of centuries, man has pondered over the universe and tried to discover its hidden secrets. Many concepts about the cosmos developed but they were subject to change later on.

Responding to your question, Dr. Muzammil H. Siddiqi, former President of the Islamic Society of North America and Director of the Islamic Society of Orange County, Garden Grove, California, states the following:

“Seven skies are mentioned in the Qur’an in many places. It is interesting that the word “saba` samawat” also occurs seven times in the Qur’an. (See Al-Baqarah 2:29; Al-Israa’ 17:44; Al-Mu’minun 23:86; Fussilat 41:12; At-Talaq 65:12; Al-Mulk 67:3; Nuh 71:15.) Only Allah knows the real nature of these seven skies. Maulana Mawdudi in his tafseer (explanation) of the Qur’an says: “It is difficult to explain precisely what is meant by the ‘seven heavens.’

In all ages, man has tried, with the help of observation and speculation to conceptualize the ‘heavens’, i.e., that which lies beyond and above the earth. As we know, the concepts that have thus developed have constantly changed. Hence, it would be improper to tie the meaning of these words of the Qur’an to any one of these numerous concepts.

What might be broadly inferred from this statement is that either Allah has divided the universe beyond earth into seven distinct spheres, or that this earth is located in that part of the universe which consists of seven different spheres.”

(Towards Understanding the Qur’an, translated by Zafar Ishaq Ansari, vol. 1, p. 58, note no. 34.)

From the Hadith (especially the hadiths concerning Al-Mi`raj) we learn that the first heaven is the one that is closest to the earth. So the order begins from the earth and the highest heaven is the seventh heaven.” ​

Thanks and after tracking it all down the answer is no one knows.No big deal as in all scriptures there are bits no one can fathom​

 

[cat eyes]

they are talking about islam on a body building forum:hmm:how very weird

 

[جوري]

Thanks and after tracking it all down the answer is no one knows.No big deal as in all scriptures there are bits no one can fathom

Greetings,

certainly better than loaning it your desired rendition and then trying to prove it wrong later to appease your own soul.. We haven't been outside of one sphere to speak of others as a scientific/religio plausibility .. so I don't see how anyone can know except the one who created them?

I do love the fact that seven 'heavens' is mentioned seven times in different suras as that is what I consider a true numerical marvel!


all the best!

 

[Hugo]

Greetings,

certainly better than loaning it your desired rendition and then trying to prove it wrong later to appease your own soul.. We haven't been outside of one sphere to speak of others as a scientific/religio plausibility .. so I don't see how anyone can know except the one who created them?

I do love the fact that seven 'heavens' is mentioned seven times in different suras as that is what I consider a true numerical marvel!

all the best!

There is a film called 'seven brides for seven brothers' I do like a true numerical marvel.

 

[جوري]

There is a film called 'seven brides for seven brothers' I do like a true numerical marvel.

I am well aware of the movie.. I don't see its relevance here.. but whatever tickles your amusement centers is all good..

perhaps if you have nothing to part in keeping with the topic, you can start a thread in the puzzles and humor section and write of things that tickle you there?

all the best

 

[Hugo]

I am well aware of the movie.. I don't see its relevance here.. but whatever tickles your amusement centers is all good..

perhaps if you have nothing to part in keeping with the topic, you can start a thread in the puzzles and humor section and write of things that tickle you there?

all the best

Perhaps I need to be more direct, it might be that you see seven heavens and seven verses as a marvel but what does it mean, what can be learned that might change my life or yours?

 

[جوري]

Perhaps I need to be more direct, it might be that you see seven heavens and seven verses as a marvel but what does it mean, what can be learned that might change my life or yours?

To a Muslim it is part of the numerical miracles of the Quran, as stated before they are multi-layered not just linguistics, or scientific but numerical and so on and so on.. and I have already quoted you previously:

laws behind combinatorics, the probability of a word occurring a specific number of times in the text decreasing as the text grows longer, as the number of possibilities increases rapidly. That means if you took a book that was 20 000 pages, and the word night was mentioned exactly as many times as day, it would be far more astonishing than if you found the same thing in a single page report. Also, if the word repetitions are small, then there is a greater chance that it was intentionally done that way. But if the repetition number is bigger, it is practically impossible.

______________

in other words it is near impossible to mention seven heavens and have them repeated seven times in different suras and have them make perfect sense.. and the process is repeated for many other things, like prayers which are mentioned five time, and the number of actual daily prayers is five times... etc etc.

as for what it means to you-- It is one of those things you need to actually set out to discredit on your excellent search on the 'man-made' Quran..


all the best

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

in other words it is near impossible to mention seven heavens and have them repeated seven times in different suras and have them make perfect sense..

Why is this nearly impossible? It seems it would be a very easy thing to do.

Georges Perec wrote a full-length novel in the French language that didn't contain a single letter 'e' and yet made perfect sense - now that's difficult, but still obviously a human achievement.

Peace

 

[Muhammad]

It's perhaps best to avoid getting into these discussions because if such people are hellbent on spreading misconceptions, they won't be interested in hearing the truth. It won't matter how good an answer you give them, they will just ignore them and simply try and find any way (no matter how feeble) to "win" the argument instead of sincerely searching for the truth. So ultimately it's a big waste of time trying to reason with such people.

but what does it mean, what can be learned that might change my life or yours?

Life-changing lessons are typically not gained from scientific facts, hence you might be better off asking this question when studying the guidance in the Qur'an, which is its primary purpose.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

It's perhaps best to avoid getting into these discussions because if such people are hellbent on spreading misconceptions, they won't be interested in hearing the truth. It won't matter how good an answer you give them, they will just ignore them and simply try and find any way (no matter how feeble) to "win" the argument instead of sincerely searching for the truth.

This is something that people on all sides of many discussions here are frequently guilty of too. For example: you've made it clear that you assume you have the truth already; as a result you only believe people are sincerely searching for the truth if they end up agreeing with you. In fact people are capable of being perfectly sincere and yet may end up with very different views.

It's up to you to decide if it's worth your time to get involved in such discussions, but it would be nice if there was still an area of the forum where they could take place for people who do want to have them.

Peace