Thread about Scientific Error in Quran

[Muhammad]

Greetings czgibson,

This is something that people on all sides of many discussions here are frequently guilty of too. For example: you've made it clear that you assume you have the truth already; as a result you only believe people are sincerely searching for the truth if they end up agreeing with you. In fact people are capable of being perfectly sincere and yet may end up with very different views.

That's not quite correct - the point is not about agreement here. As I said above, the problem is when people throw all sense of rationality out the window and a discussion appealing to reason can no longer be held.

 

[sur]

Haven't gone thru the thread, but this seems relevant, somehow:-
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOYpjZywUPA&feature=related[/media]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUUPYs0gElU&NR=1[/media]

 

[czgibson]

Greetings Muhammad,

Greetings czgibson,

That's not quite correct - the point is not about agreement here. As I said above, the problem is when people throw all sense of rationality out the window and a discussion appealing to reason can no longer be held.

Well, that's true. The difficulty arises when people disagree and assume that the other side is being irrational, which is not always the case. None of us has the right to assume that we have the truth and everyone else is wrong.

Peace

 

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

Well, that's true. The difficulty arises when people disagree and assume that the other side is being irrational, which is not always the case.

Assuming someone is irrational because they disagree is different. That's not what I'm saying. I'm talking about clear cases of irrationality like building strawmen arguments, resorting to attacks and ignoring responses. And there are many examples where irrationality becomes clear.

None of us has the right to assume that we have the truth and everyone else is wrong.

If that were the case, nobody could ever have confidence in their beliefs and instead live a life of doubt. However, the truth is such that it stands out from falsehood and anyone who is guided to that truth can be certain of it.

 

[جوري]

Greetings,


Why is this nearly impossible? It seems it would be a very easy thing to do.

Georges Perec wrote a full-length novel in the French language that didn't contain a single letter 'e' and yet made perfect sense - now that's difficult, but still obviously a human achievement.

Peace

what was his novel about? did it cover all the facets of the Quran?
Question is did Georges spend his life writing novels or running a complete system covering politics, economics, social structure, inheritance, spirituality, warfare two different works, hadith itself being an entire compendium completely differing from the style and linguistics of the Quran to bother ponder which suras revealed decades apart should have a verse on the seven heavens or whatever else to fall beautifully, poetically and have it make sense in other aspects..

before you write pls try to average in all variables, so your conjectures make better sense to the rest of us and your motives are somewhat hidden to pure unselfish inquiry ..


all the best

 

[CosmicPathos]

Greetings,


Why is this nearly impossible? It seems it would be a very easy thing to do.

Georges Perec wrote a full-length novel in the French language that didn't contain a single letter 'e' and yet made perfect sense - now that's difficult, but still obviously a human achievement.

Peace

what a joke, lol. So how many other things Mr. Perec kept constant in this humanly feat? Just one letter? Or a multitude of things? And how many days of his life he spent in achieving this task. I am giving him the benefit of doubt that he did not use any computer technology.

 

[جوري]

question is, can you dedicate your life to more than one task and do every last one with high fidelity.. the numerical miracles of the Quran is but one aspect amongst many, and that is what any kaffir really has to take on when challenging this religion.. take on every variable and discredit not with conjectures but with logic and have it be purposeful!

all the best

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

what was his novel about? did it cover all the facets of the Quran?

You can find out more about it here.

before you write pls try to average in all variables, so your conjectures make better sense to the rest of us and your motives are somewhat hidden to pure unselfish inquiry ..

I was asking about the following specific claim, which you made a few posts ago:

in other words it is near impossible to mention seven heavens and have them repeated seven times in different suras and have them make perfect sense..

Why is that nearly impossible?

what a joke, lol. So how many other things Mr. Perec kept constant in this humanly feat? Just one letter? Or a multitude of things?

I don't understand what you're asking here.

And how many days of his life he spent in achieving this task.

The book was published in 1969, but I don't know how long he spent writing it.

I am giving him the benefit of doubt that he did not use any computer technology.

Not as far as anyone knows. Using computers might make the task even more difficult, come to think of it.

Peace

 

[Hugo]

To a Muslim it is part of the numerical miracles of the Quran, as stated before they are multi-layered not just linguistics, or scientific but numerical and so on and so on.. and I have already quoted you previously:

laws behind combinatorics, the probability of a word occurring a specific number of times in the text decreasing as the text grows longer, as the number of possibilities increases rapidly. That means if you took a book that was 20 000 pages, and the word night was mentioned exactly as many times as day, it would be far more astonishing than if you found the same thing in a single page report. Also, if the word repetitions are small, then there is a greater chance that it was intentionally done that way. But if the repetition number is bigger, it is practically impossible.

in other words it is near impossible to mention seven heavens and have them repeated seven times in different suras and have them make perfect sense.. and the process is repeated for many other things, like prayers which are mentioned five time, and the number of actual daily prayers is five times... etc etc.

as for what it means to you-- It is one of those things you need to actually set out to discredit on your excellent search on the 'man-made' Quran..

I am not entirely sure you understand probability and if one is not careful the stories become wacky. Did you know for example there is a formula for the perfect TV show (C=3d[R*D+V]*F/A+S) in fact there are formulas for almost everything from the perfect way to eat ice cream to the most depressing day of the year - they are formulas so they must be true mustn't they?

When it comes to probability it is even worse and every year, day people are taken in by it pundits or salesmen or whatever. For example, if I say that taking statins reduces risk of say stroke by 50% is that significant or not - so is this a proof that statins really help in individual cases?

Believing in this number nonsense is what discredits the Qu'ran and those who subscribe to it - in any other bit of their life they would one hope laugh at such nonsense - I can prove it to because one can generate all sort of numbers for the Bible or Moby Dick and YOU would ridicule it would you not and rightly so but because its the Qu'ran you rational powers get suspended.

Richard Feynman, undoubtedly one of the finest brains the world has known started a lecture with a very salutatory story. If you cannot understand the point he is making here then you're the sort of person who would believe anything if it fitted in with your world view and also it shows you know nothing of logic or probability.

You know, the most amazing thing happened to me tonight. I was coming here, on the way to the lecture, and I came in through the parking lot. And you won't believe what happened. I saw a car with the licence plate ARW 357. Can you imagine? Of all the millions of licence plates in the state, what was the chance that I would see that particular one tonight? Amazing....​

 

[CosmicPathos]

I am not entirely sure you understand probability and if one is not careful the stories become wacky. Did you know for example there is a formula for the perfect TV show (C=3d[R*D+V]*F/A+S) in fact there are formulas for almost everything from the perfect way to eat ice cream to the most depressing day of the year - they are formulas so they must be true mustn't they?

When it comes to probability it is even worse and every year, day people are taken in by it pundits or salesmen or whatever. For example, if I say that taking statins reduces risk of say stroke by 50% is that significant or not - so is this a proof that statins really help in individual cases?

Believing in this number nonsense is what discredits the Qu'ran and those who subscribe to it - in any other bit of their life they would one hope laugh at such nonsense - I can prove it to because one can generate all sort of numbers for the Bible or Moby Dick and YOU would ridicule it would you not and rightly so but because its the Qu'ran you rational powers get suspended.

Richard Feynman, undoubtedly one of the finest brains the world has known started a lecture with a very salutatory story. If you cannot understand the point he is making here then you're the sort of person who would believe anything if it fitted in with your world view and also it shows you know nothing of logic or probability.

You know, the most amazing thing happened to me tonight. I was coming here, on the way to the lecture, and I came in through the parking lot. And you won't believe what happened. I saw a car with the licence plate ARW 357. Can you imagine? Of all the millions of licence plates in the state, what was the chance that I would see that particular one tonight? Amazing....​

So ARW357 was the room number? How would Mr Feynman feel if on his way he saw a number plate with his name on it, a number plate with his age, a number plate with his date of birth and a number plate with his place of birth? Hmm, it would be random too? right?
Quran has many instances where it is improbable for them to occur by chance. Sure, other possibility is that Muhammad (saw) could have intended it that way. that is also unlikely specially when he did not write the Quran down and did not keep track of things in his brain and did not sit down to analyze what is where.

many other religious books can also have such features. They are, however, intended by the authors. As for as historicity of Quran is concerned, there is no evidence that muhammad (pbuh) intended all those numerical things.

For example, ancient Hindu scriptures were already thinking about the age of cosmos/earth in billions of years while Judeo-Christian thought was stuck to the Young age concept of Earth being 6000 years old ..... but lets look at how many other things those Hindu scriptures got wrong. Quran does not get anything wrong about the physical world as far as the observational phenomenon are concerned.

 

[CosmicPathos]

Greetings,


You can find out more about it here.



I was asking about the following specific claim, which you made a few posts ago:



Why is that nearly impossible?



I don't understand what you're asking here.


The book was published in 1969, but I don't know how long he spent writing it.



Not as far as anyone knows. Using computers might make the task even more difficult, come to think of it.

Peace

1969, I doubt he had a secret access to computers then.

What I mean is that Quran does not just try to not use only one letter "e." The probability of independent events to occur by chance decreases enormously if all of them occur together. Because you have to multiply each probability.

 

[جوري]

Greetings,


You can find out more about it here.

yes, it is fascinating it is a book, you didn't address all the stuff I mentioned in my previous post.

I was asking about the following specific claim, which you made a few posts ago:



Why is that nearly impossible?

You go try it and let me know how it works out for you? do it on a span of decades, and then we can have this conversation again?

I don't understand what you're asking here.

Which part was difficult for you to understand?

The book was published in 1969, but I don't know how long he spent writing it.

What is the book about?

Not as far as anyone knows. Using computers might make the task even more difficult, come to think of it.

Peace

How so?

 

[جوري]

I am not entirely sure you understand probability and if one is not careful the stories become wacky. Did you know for example there is a formula for the perfect TV show (C=3d[R*D+V]*F/A+S) in fact there are formulas for almost everything from the perfect way to eat ice cream to the most depressing day of the year - they are formulas so they must be true mustn't they?

I have no idea how this relates to the law of combiantorics of the specific numerical miracles in the Quran!

When it comes to probability it is even worse and every year, day people are taken in by it pundits or salesmen or whatever. For example, if I say that taking statins reduces risk of say stroke by 50% is that significant or not - so is this a proof that statins really help in individual cases?

We are not speaking of drug trials we are speaking of numerical marvels of the Quran.. but statins are indeed the first line of rx for hypercholestrolemia. If you have a point to make I suggest you stick to this topic, if you want to discuss drug trials, how about you open a thread in health and sci. and I'll be glad to discuss statistical value of this particular drug trial.

Believing in this number nonsense is what discredits the Qu'ran and those who subscribe to it - in any other bit of their life they would one hope laugh at such nonsense - I can prove it to because one can generate all sort of numbers for the Bible or Moby Dick and YOU would ridicule it would you not and rightly so but because its the Qu'ran you rational powers get suspended.

No, actually it doesn't, it makes your job that much more difficult and I can imagine you in your bitter defeat knowing that every little pathetic attempt you come up with to discredit the Quran blows up in your face and painfully so.
on a side note: try to make the passages in your bibles in agreement with each other first before you venture into 'numerical marvels'!

Richard Feynman, undoubtedly one of the finest brains the world has known started a lecture with a very salutatory story. If you cannot understand the point he is making here then you're the sort of person who would believe anything if it fitted in with your world view and also it shows you know nothing of logic or probability.

You know, the most amazing thing happened to me tonight. I was coming here, on the way to the lecture, and I came in through the parking lot. And you won't believe what happened. I saw a car with the licence plate ARW 357. Can you imagine? Of all the millions of licence plates in the state, what was the chance that I would see that particular one tonight? Amazing....​

Again, more nonsense.. there is a term in psychiatry for people like you.. people expend so much time with tangentiality and circumstantiality.. they usually end up on medications.. what a pity, someone should teach you to stick to the point, and if you have no point to make as most assuredly you never do, then you should keep silent!


all the best

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

yes, it is fascinating it is a book, you didn't address all the stuff I mentioned in my previous post.

Because it was irrelevant to the specific question I was asking.

You go try it and let me know how it works out for you? do it on a span of decades, and then we can have this conversation again?

I can't see how there could be any difficulty in mentioning a particular phrase in a text a specific number of times. I've asked you twice now why you think mentioning "seven heavens" in a text seven times would be nearly impossible. After the two non-answers you've given so far I'm not holding out much hope, but would you mind trying to answer the question?

Which part was difficult for you to understand?

This part in particular:

how many other things Mr. Perec kept constant

But this was Wa7abiScientist's question. In explaining it, he now seems to have turned it into a statement to which I have nothing to add.

What is the book about?

So you were lying when you said the link I gave was fascinating. What a surprise to discover you haven't read it. You could always try reading the book, too, of course.

How so?

Mainly because computers aren't great at writing novels.

Peace

 

[جوري]

Greetings,


Because it was irrelevant to the specific question I was asking.

You had a question? I thought you just have all the answers?

I can't see how there could be any difficulty in mentioning a particular phrase in a text a specific number of times. I've asked you twice now why you think mentioning "seven heavens" in a text seven times would be nearly impossible. After the two non-answers you've given so far I'm not holding out much hope, but would you mind trying to answer the question?

Then I'll refer you again to the post about the law combinatorics read it and understand it. If you don't understand it, then there is nothing anyone can do to help you. And I have great doubt that you are interested in anything outside your sphere of pedantry anyway!

So you were lying when you said the link I gave was fascinating. What a surprise to discover you haven't read it. You could always try reading the book, too, of course.

I was being sarcastic of you, how dense of you to miss? You've stated that Georges wrote a book without the letter E, and then with your subsequent post you have linked me to said book, what would you like applause for being able to use the google feature? I got it the first time around a man wrote a book..
The whole point of you mentioning a book is to show us its relevance to the Quran right? So why don't you show us in which ways this book was influential instead of strutting the one talent you have oh learned one?

Mainly because computers aren't great at writing novels.

Peace

read and observant ... fabulous!

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

You had a question? I thought you just have all the answers?

Well, I've asked it three times now, but clearly you're not interested in giving an answer. Your usual tactic of ignore and insult has succeeded again. Well done!

Thank you and goodnight.

Peace

 

[Hugo]

I have no idea how this relates to the law of combiantorics of the specific numerical miracles in the Quran!

It relates to the simple fact that IF you are disposed to find marvels you will find them

We are not speaking of drug trials we are speaking of numerical marvels of the Quran..

This is the silliest thing I have heard for a long time as it appears you think probability theory is different for the Qu'ran.

but statins are indeed the first line of rx for hypercholestrolemia. If you have a point to make I suggest you stick to this topic, if you want to discuss drug trials, how about you open a thread in health and sci. and I'll be glad to discuss statistical value of this particular drug trial

I am trying to establishing if you understand probabilities - so a drug company says a particular drug will reduce the chance of a stroke by 50% are they misleading me, have they forgotten anything?

No, actually it doesn't, it makes your job that much more difficult and I can imagine you in your bitter defeat knowing that every little pathetic attempt you come up with to discredit the Quran blows up in your face and painfully so.

The only thing my post might discredit is silly numerical claims about the Qu'ran - they have zero validity and no teaching value at all. Try comforting a dying friend by telling then there are 7 heavens and its a miracle its in 7 verses. Its worthless chicanery.

Again, more nonsense.. there is a term in psychiatry for people like you.. people expend so much time with tangentiality and circumstantiality.. they usually end up on medications.. what a pity, someone should teach you to stick to the point, and if you have no point to make as most assuredly you never do, then you should keep silent!

I wonder what you make of these words Matthew 12:35 The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him.

 

[جوري]

Greetings,


Well, I've asked it three times now, but clearly you're not interested in giving an answer. Your usual tactic of ignore and insult has succeeded again. Well done!

Thank you and goodnight.

Peace

Let's take it down a few notches to a level you can understand cz. (at least I am openly honest and not hiding in CP comments).

How does writing a novel without the letter E compare to the numerical miracles in the Quran?

Let's give it a try and I am no novelist:

oh dear
one day I woke hating the count of thirteen
I decided to write a novel without the letter before N.
oh dear what should this book be about
the sun, the stars or a thicko identified as bob
Bob it is then, said I
bob walked to the foyer and picked his paper
then ran to the fireplace and ignited a log
I soon discovered a little after brunch
that it was a tiny feat to work on a hunch
all I needed to do was have a handy equivalent word finder
and that of course issued of the centrino data processor...


Now, how easy was it to write sans the letter M?
if I were dedicating my life to writing a novel, well that would be an easy feat indeed. All I have to do is find a synonym and make a point.

Did the prophet Mohamed hope to make a point with the numerical marvels in the Quran? again, quoting the law of combinatorics:
the probability of a word occuring a specific number of times in the text decreasing as the text grows longer, as the number of possibilities increases rapidly. That means if you took a book that was 20 000 pages, and the word night was mentioned exactly as many times as day, it would be far more astonishing than if you found the same thing in a single page report. Also, if the word repetitions are small, then there is a greater chance that it was intentionally done that way. But if the repetition number is bigger, it is practically impossible.


we are not looking for an alternative word, but looking for a word to represent a certain fact a specific number of times and having it flow in the text with ease and fluidity not as if have been labored over as if stuck in where it doesn't belong.
to mention seven heavens in seven separate suras that flow in rhyme, context, style, meaning, fluidity that many years apart, and unintentionally so as to have all other afore mentioned feats on the side strikes any person who reflects as a peculiarly providential.. we are also talking about a text that has influenced the lives of billions and for millenniums, as one of the most influential books in history.. not some novel written by a guy you find remarkable.

Anyhow, I don't think I can make it any simpler than this and I think one would have to be dense of extremely disdainful to this religion and this text to feign lack of understanding.. and I think the case of most kaffirs falls in the latter category!

Now that being said, do enjoy life.. you only get one chance..and I think you are rather wasting it swanking your one talent to folks completely impervious to it..

all the best

 

[جوري]

It relates to the simple fact that IF you are disposed to find marvels you will find them

I am not disposed to finding marvels but when marvels present themselves in an overt fashion I certainly take notice!

This is the silliest thing I have heard for a long time as it appears you think probability theory is different for the Qu'ran.

There are no games of chance when the findings are pretty specific.

I am trying to establishing if you understand probabilities - so a drug company says a particular drug will reduce the chance of a stroke by 50% are they misleading me, have they forgotten anything?

Perhaps you didn't read something.. in order for anyone to pass this sort of data as a fact, there is a number of variables that take place, one which happens to be three or even perhaps four phases of trial. So your example is null and void, because it has no relation to the Quran or drug trials. I have no idea why you insist on embarrassing yourself by sticking little nonsense here and there to impress someone with.. I must have made mention that I find tangentiality and circumstantiality as a psychological pathology and not a gift.

The only thing my post might discredit is silly numerical claims about the Qu'ran - they have zero validity and no teaching value at all. Try comforting a dying friend by telling then there are 7 heavens and its a miracle its in 7 verses. Its worthless chicanery.

I never said this is the only thing in the Quran of value. I take the entire package. But certainly I wouldn't want to comfort a dying friend with some hearsay of a dying god but using a book purely of divine origin.

I might comfort a friend as such:

I wonder what you make of these words Matthew 12:35 The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him.

great rhetoric!

all the best

 

[Hugo]

So ARW357 was the room number?

Please read the post it clearly say it was a licence number.

How would Mr Feynman feel if on his way he saw a number plate with his name on it, a number plate with his age, a number plate with his date of birth and a number plate with his place of birth? Hmm, it would be random too? right?

He would immediately suspect a fix, a fraud or a joke. Let me ask you if I came to this board with all sorts of numerical marvels from the Bible (and they exist) what would be your response? The fact is it is very easy to find all sort of numerical 'marvels'. Go and look honestly at your mysterious number 19 and see what happens to your critical scientific mind. http://www.nmsr.org/code19.htm or http://www.********************/Nehls/Ask/number19.html

Quran has many instances where it is improbable for them to occur by chance. Sure, other possibility is that Muhammad (saw) could have intended it that way. that is also unlikely specially when he did not write the Quran down and did not keep track of things in his brain and did not sit down to analyze what is where.

But there are millions examples of this all over the place and these days with computers you can generate a miracle every second for any book at all.

many other religious books can also have such features. They are, however, intended by the authors. As for as historicity of Quran is concerned, there is no evidence that muhammad (pbuh) intended all those numerical things.

I agree he never intended them in the same way Melville did not intent them in Moby Dick and how can you as a scientist so casually say that every other author intended them - have you any objectivity at all? If the Qu'ran is of any value its because of its message not because of superstition about numbers

For example, ancient Hindu scriptures were already thinking about the age of cosmos/earth in billions of years while Judeo-Christian thought was stuck to the Young age concept of Earth being 6000 years old ..... but lets look at how many other things those Hindu scriptures got wrong. Quran does not get anything wrong about the physical world as far as the observational phenomenon are concerned.

This is nonsense, young earth is I think a very recent idea. In any case no early Christian or Jew would bother asking about the cosmos and does Genesis Chapter 1 mean this or that scientifically - they would be asking what has God got to say to use about live and the hear after.

When you say the Qu'ran gets nothing wrong but since you are a scientist I assume that you have looked at alternative views - all of them, no room for doubt or experimentation?